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A follow up to the is Vettel finished thread.

For me I reckon he’s had his time in the sun and since last summer break something broke and has lost the edge. Maybe Lewis or probably something personal ie. Family. Whatever it is I wouldn’t bet on him being world champion again.

The poll is where you’d like to see him. Comment on where you think he’ll be.l in 2020 or even 2021

Mercedes because I want to see him winning again.

I would like to see him as the Ferrari Grand Prix race manager, guiding tyre strategy, motivating and advising. A thoughtful guy with racing pedigree and principles. The kids are coming and it fits his family's requirements.

Ferrari, for Leclerc vs Vettel round II. That is what I want to see but from a Ferrari perspective, they could probably save a small fortune replacing Vettel with Ricciardo and get an upgrade. Either that or spend big for Max.

If he went to Mercedes it would only be as a replacement for Hamilton after a shock retirement or some such thing.

I'd quite like to see Vettel at McLaren in the future if he wasnt at Ferrari I think.

In terms of possibilities for next year though, Ferrari. I think Vettel v Leclerc could be a really good battle over the next couple of years.

You do realize that his contract is not up until AFTER next season, don't you? He won't be driving for another F1 team next year and I can't see him in Indycar or WEC either. I think he's going to be at Ferrari and that's where I would like him to be. Win or lose, he should finish out this era with them and then we'll see what happens next.

sandman1347 wrote:You do realize that his contract is not up until AFTER next season, don't you? He won't be driving for another F1 team next year and I can't see him in Indycar or WEC either. I think he's going to be at Ferrari and that's where I would like him to be. Win or lose, he should finish out this era with them and then we'll see what happens next.

Yeah I don't understand this kind of talk when a driver is under contract either, I see the options for Vettel as being to drive for Ferrari in 2020 or retire from F1.

pokerman wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:You do realize that his contract is not up until AFTER next season, don't you? He won't be driving for another F1 team next year and I can't see him in Indycar or WEC either. I think he's going to be at Ferrari and that's where I would like him to be. Win or lose, he should finish out this era with them and then we'll see what happens next.

Yeah I don't understand this kind of talk when a driver is under contract either, I see the options for Vettel as being to drive for Ferrari in 2020 or retire from F1.

Contracts can and do break. And playing the devil's advocate, we have seen drivers having certain performance clauses. There may be such a clause that releases Vettel from his contract if they want to exercise that option. This is pure guesswork for the sake of the conversation obviously!

Also, I think the thread is a bit tongue in cheek if you see the options, so don't take it too seriously guys.

pokerman wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:You do realize that his contract is not up until AFTER next season, don't you? He won't be driving for another F1 team next year and I can't see him in Indycar or WEC either. I think he's going to be at Ferrari and that's where I would like him to be. Win or lose, he should finish out this era with them and then we'll see what happens next.

Yeah I don't understand this kind of talk when a driver is under contract either, I see the options for Vettel as being to drive for Ferrari in 2020 or retire from F1.

OR Manage the other drivers at Ferrari....he has to be better than the current set up!

If Vettel wants to go and Ferrari aren't bothered about him staying then the contract means nothing.

In Heppenheim, along the Bergstrasse, making wine. No red wine, of course, he would make a mess of it, but one of those very good whites they make around Heppenheim.

Other. Sitting atop his mountain in Switzerland with his family; tinkering with his classic bikes and doing a Steve McQueen when no ones around, and gently caressing his Beatle memorabilia.

The next race is just another race so they say; but I think we will all be keeping a weather eye on Seb. I think we have reached the stage where even his detractors are hoping he has a good one.

Sat in a Red Bull, with Hamilton in the Ferrari, and Verstappen in the Mercedes.

It depends how the rest of his 2019 goes. If he starts driving consistently without all the mistakes, then by all means I want him at Ferrari. I'd love to see Vettel at his best up against Leclerc. Not only would it be entertaining for a neutral but it would also provide a very good barometer of where Charles is at.

However, if Seb keeps making mistakes then honestly, I hope he takes a year away from F1. I don't want to see the guy retire on the back of (what would be) 18 months of mistakes. It'd be such a shame and would be how he would be remembered. Again as a neutral, I want to see him back at his best on a consistent basis, and if he can't work things out from on the grid, to me a year away from F1 is the best hope he has of doing so.

There's no option for Macca, but I'd kind of like to see him go there. Although I don't really want to see Sainz leave either, and there's no room for a third driver.

I don't think Vettel is finished, I just think the Ferrari is not to his liking, which is understandable given he does well in high downforce cars like the Redbull. I think Ferrari will accept him having 1 off season, givne he completely out performed Raikkonnen and was given a maligned car this year. Although I expect they will want wins in the near future once the car has adapted to the new rules.

In the commentary booth.

sandman1347 wrote:You do realize that his contract is not up until AFTER next season, don't you? He won't be driving for another F1 team next year and I can't see him in Indycar or WEC either. I think he's going to be at Ferrari and that's where I would like him to be. Win or lose, he should finish out this era with them and then we'll see what happens next.

Because if there's one thing we know about F1 contracts is that they're religiously followed.

Would like to see Seb at Mercedes mainly to watch him and Lewis in equal cars. Of course they could also race in equal cars at Ferrari.

Would settle a lot of bickering about who is winning just because they have the better car.

We got to see Senna and Prost in equal cars and it was a battle for the ages. (Of course they didn't always behave themselves)

ReservoirDog wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:You do realize that his contract is not up until AFTER next season, don't you? He won't be driving for another F1 team next year and I can't see him in Indycar or WEC either. I think he's going to be at Ferrari and that's where I would like him to be. Win or lose, he should finish out this era with them and then we'll see what happens next.

Because if there's one thing we know about F1 contracts is that they're religiously followed.

Ok, I've now heard this one time too many and I have to say something about it. The idea that contracts in F1 are meaningless and constantly disregarded or ignored simply isn't true. Not for the kinds of contracts that we're actually talking about. When a driver signs a contract with a team that covers a certain duration of time and promises a certain amount of pay, that contract is valid and almost always enforced. It is actually quite rare for those contracts to be violated and when they are, it is almost always at great cost to the party that violates them. The most common example is when a team terminates a driver's contract before the contracted period of time has elapsed. The team STILL MUST PAY that driver the amount of money that is guaranteed in the contract unless they are using a contractually established clause (such as a performance clause or perhaps a situation where the team has an option on the second year in the contract).

If a driver wants out of a contract that they have signed, they will usually have to wait until their contract is expired or, failing that, take a massive financial hit (unless, again, they have performance clauses or out-clauses in their deal). It is NOT easy to just rip up a contract unless both parties are on the same page about it. The one case where there is usually no issue is when a driver chooses to retire, because in that case, they will not be driving for another team. If you think Lewis can just go to another team next year despite the fact that he is under contract at Mercedes, you don't understand how it works.

In 2020 it is not possible I think. But would love to see him in Mercedes. I think Vettel is better than Bottas and Rosberg and I can see him beat Hamilton in same car. Other option would be RBR. Pretty sure Honda will be on par with Mercedes and Ferrari and will continue to be partners with RBR. They will be fighting for the wins as well.

I thought he was perfect driver for Ferrari and would motivate them and never complain. But there is just too much pressure whether he is doing good and even worse if he is not. For some reason in such situation he is not able to do his best. He is amazing driver just need to sort out his mind

sandman1347 wrote:

ReservoirDog wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:You do realize that his contract is not up until AFTER next season, don't you? He won't be driving for another F1 team next year and I can't see him in Indycar or WEC either. I think he's going to be at Ferrari and that's where I would like him to be. Win or lose, he should finish out this era with them and then we'll see what happens next.

Because if there's one thing we know about F1 contracts is that they're religiously followed.

Ok, I've now heard this one time too many and I have to say something about it. The idea that contracts in F1 are meaningless and constantly disregarded or ignored simply isn't true. Not for the kinds of contracts that we're actually talking about. When a driver signs a contract with a team that covers a certain duration of time and promises a certain amount of pay, that contract is valid and almost always enforced. It is actually quite rare for those contracts to be violated and when they are, it is almost always at great cost to the party that violates them. The most common example is when a team terminates a driver's contract before the contracted period of time has elapsed. The team STILL MUST PAY that driver the amount of money that is guaranteed in the contract unless they are using a contractually established clause (such as a performance clause or perhaps a situation where the team has an option on the second year in the contract).

If a driver wants out of a contract that they have signed, they will usually have to wait until their contract is expired or, failing that, take a massive financial hit (unless, again, they have performance clauses or out-clauses in their deal). It is NOT easy to just rip up a contract unless both parties are on the same page about it. The one case where there is usually no issue is when a driver chooses to retire, because in that case, they will not be driving for another team. If you think Lewis can just go to another team next year despite the fact that he is under contract at Mercedes, you don't understand how it works.

Who said that they are meaningless and constantly disregarded or ignored??? I don't think anyone actually suggested that. But they do break contracts, they do let drivers go, hell we even had teams with 4 drivers for two seats not so long ago! This is also one reason why they have the performance clauses, the team has to provide a good enough car and the driver from his side has to perform. Contracts have so many break out clauses that it is quite possible to get out of "relatively" easy.

As you point out it can surely be bad for one of the two parties, but not necessarily, not always. FI let Fisico go to his dream Ferrari seat for the last few races of the '09 season without any drama, for the good of the sport as they said. And if I remember correctly Peter Sauber let Schumacher go because (he made a mistake as well) even though they had a potential contract through Mercedes, he decided not to pursue it as Schumacher really wanted to go to Benetton, something like that.

In any case, the bottom line is that if Ferrari wants Vettel out of the seat, he will be out. They paid Kimi's WRC holidays in order to bring Alonso in, so it has happened before that this team made space by letting their star driver go, it is not just fiction.

Mort Canard wrote:Would like to see Seb at Mercedes mainly to watch him and Lewis in equal cars. Of course they could also race in equal cars at Ferrari.

Would settle a lot of bickering about who is winning just because they have the better car.

It really wouldn't... whoever moved to the other's team would be disadvantaged for a start, although if one of them beat the other in the other's team that would largely be negated. But still, people will find 'endless' reasons why it isn't definitive.

ALESI wrote:

Mort Canard wrote:Would like to see Seb at Mercedes mainly to watch him and Lewis in equal cars. Of course they could also race in equal cars at Ferrari.

Would settle a lot of bickering about who is winning just because they have the better car.

It really wouldn't... whoever moved to the other's team would be disadvantaged for a start, although if one of them beat the other in the other's team that would largely be negated. But still, people will find 'endless' reasons why it isn't definitive.

Well, Prost was already a few seasons with McLaren when Senna joined, which is what I think MC referenced. So not impossible, but given the dynamics between the two drivers that I have in my mind, this would work if Lewis joined Ferrari, not the other way round. Lewis is much stronger than Vettel, especially at this point of their careers. So going into Vettel's garage and upsetting the apple cart would be awesome to watch! But not holding my breath, Leclerc is clearly the future there and can't see him going.

Siao7 wrote:

ALESI wrote:

Mort Canard wrote:Would like to see Seb at Mercedes mainly to watch him and Lewis in equal cars. Of course they could also race in equal cars at Ferrari.

Would settle a lot of bickering about who is winning just because they have the better car.

It really wouldn't... whoever moved to the other's team would be disadvantaged for a start, although if one of them beat the other in the other's team that would largely be negated. But still, people will find 'endless' reasons why it isn't definitive.

Well, Prost was already a few seasons with McLaren when Senna joined, which is what I think MC referenced. So not impossible, but given the dynamics between the two drivers that I have in my mind, this would work if Lewis joined Ferrari, not the other way round. Lewis is much stronger than Vettel, especially at this point of their careers. So going into Vettel's garage and upsetting the apple cart would be awesome to watch! But not holding my breath, Leclerc is clearly the future there and can't see him going.

pokerman wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:You do realize that his contract is not up until AFTER next season, don't you? He won't be driving for another F1 team next year and I can't see him in Indycar or WEC either. I think he's going to be at Ferrari and that's where I would like him to be. Win or lose, he should finish out this era with them and then we'll see what happens next.

Yeah I don't understand this kind of talk when a driver is under contract either, I see the options for Vettel as being to drive for Ferrari in 2020 or retire from F1.

Yeah, it's because those guys around think he is finished. Not in the least. Seems like they are taking advantage of the situation he has with uncompetitive car.

Maybe he should try WRC. Driving against the clock seems to be one of his strengths.

Lt. Drebin wrote:

pokerman wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:You do realize that his contract is not up until AFTER next season, don't you? He won't be driving for another F1 team next year and I can't see him in Indycar or WEC either. I think he's going to be at Ferrari and that's where I would like him to be. Win or lose, he should finish out this era with them and then we'll see what happens next.

Yeah I don't understand this kind of talk when a driver is under contract either, I see the options for Vettel as being to drive for Ferrari in 2020 or retire from F1.

Yeah, it's because those guys around think he is finished. Not in the least. Seems like they are taking advantage of the situation he has with uncompetitive car.

Are you saying Vettel has an uncompetitive car?

Invade wrote:

Lt. Drebin wrote:

pokerman wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:You do realize that his contract is not up until AFTER next season, don't you? He won't be driving for another F1 team next year and I can't see him in Indycar or WEC either. I think he's going to be at Ferrari and that's where I would like him to be. Win or lose, he should finish out this era with them and then we'll see what happens next.

Yeah I don't understand this kind of talk when a driver is under contract either, I see the options for Vettel as being to drive for Ferrari in 2020 or retire from F1.

Yeah, it's because those guys around think he is finished. Not in the least. Seems like they are taking advantage of the situation he has with uncompetitive car.

Are you saying Vettel has an uncompetitive car?

Yeah I thought it was an interesting observation.

They've been a hairs breadth away from winning 3 races this year & Leclerc looked to be owning Baku before he binned it in Q2.

Atrocious strategy calls have also had then looking ordinary but I don't agree that the cars noncompetitive.

Lt. Drebin wrote:

pokerman wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:You do realize that his contract is not up until AFTER next season, don't you? He won't be driving for another F1 team next year and I can't see him in Indycar or WEC either. I think he's going to be at Ferrari and that's where I would like him to be. Win or lose, he should finish out this era with them and then we'll see what happens next.

Yeah I don't understand this kind of talk when a driver is under contract either, I see the options for Vettel as being to drive for Ferrari in 2020 or retire from F1.

Yeah, it's because those guys around think he is finished. Not in the least. Seems like they are taking advantage of the situation he has with uncompetitive car.

I'm sure it's more to do with all the mistakes he makes?

pokerman wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:You do realize that his contract is not up until AFTER next season, don't you? He won't be driving for another F1 team next year and I can't see him in Indycar or WEC either. I think he's going to be at Ferrari and that's where I would like him to be. Win or lose, he should finish out this era with them and then we'll see what happens next.

Yeah I don't understand this kind of talk when a driver is under contract either, I see the options for Vettel as being to drive for Ferrari in 2020 or retire from F1.

The thread title and topic is "Where would you LIKE to see Vettel in 2020?" not "Where do you THINK Vettel will be in 2020" - the thread OP is pretty explicit about that, adding the following option to comment also on where you think he will be in the future (which also specifically suggests 2021 as the actual year of any changes)

People are free to have a preference, and I think - for example - Flask2k11's post pretty much gets to the point of it. It's almost certainly not what's going to happen, but it's a great example of what people would like to see.

Alienturnedhuman wrote:

pokerman wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:You do realize that his contract is not up until AFTER next season, don't you? He won't be driving for another F1 team next year and I can't see him in Indycar or WEC either. I think he's going to be at Ferrari and that's where I would like him to be. Win or lose, he should finish out this era with them and then we'll see what happens next.

Yeah I don't understand this kind of talk when a driver is under contract either, I see the options for Vettel as being to drive for Ferrari in 2020 or retire from F1.

The thread title and topic is "Where would you LIKE to see Vettel in 2020?" not "Where do you THINK Vettel will be in 2020" - the thread OP is pretty explicit about that, adding the following option to comment also on where you think he will be in the future (which also specifically suggests 2021 as the actual year of any changes)

People are free to have a preference, and I think - for example - Flask2k11's post pretty much gets to the point of it. It's almost certainly not what's going to happen, but it's a great example of what people would like to see.

Fair enough, I should perhaps bow out because such threads make no sense to me?

pokerman wrote:

Alienturnedhuman wrote:

pokerman wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:You do realize that his contract is not up until AFTER next season, don't you? He won't be driving for another F1 team next year and I can't see him in Indycar or WEC either. I think he's going to be at Ferrari and that's where I would like him to be. Win or lose, he should finish out this era with them and then we'll see what happens next.

Yeah I don't understand this kind of talk when a driver is under contract either, I see the options for Vettel as being to drive for Ferrari in 2020 or retire from F1.

The thread title and topic is "Where would you LIKE to see Vettel in 2020?" not "Where do you THINK Vettel will be in 2020" - the thread OP is pretty explicit about that, adding the following option to comment also on where you think he will be in the future (which also specifically suggests 2021 as the actual year of any changes)

People are free to have a preference, and I think - for example - Flask2k11's post pretty much gets to the point of it. It's almost certainly not what's going to happen, but it's a great example of what people would like to see.

Fair enough, I should perhaps bow out because such threads make no sense to me?

Putting a question mark everywhere doesn't make sense to me Poker, but I never question it! No offence mate

It seems like a no brainer for both parties that Vettel stays with Ferrari next season. Merc don't need to change a great deal and won't so Hamilton's teammate will be Bottas or Ocon.

Red Bull also have absolute faith in their lead driver. I also fear that Verstappen vs Vettel has the potential to be utterly humiliating for Seb.

Given that there is only one more season of these regs, and Leclerc is in his infancy driving at the elite level, Ferrari will want the reassurance of having Vettel there too. If by seasons end they have complete faith in Charles ability to lead the team to glory then we might see Ferrari trade Vettel in for a solid number 2. But I seriously doubt it.

Jezza13 wrote:

Invade wrote:

Lt. Drebin wrote:

pokerman wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:You do realize that his contract is not up until AFTER next season, don't you? He won't be driving for another F1 team next year and I can't see him in Indycar or WEC either. I think he's going to be at Ferrari and that's where I would like him to be. Win or lose, he should finish out this era with them and then we'll see what happens next.

Yeah I don't understand this kind of talk when a driver is under contract either, I see the options for Vettel as being to drive for Ferrari in 2020 or retire from F1.

Yeah, it's because those guys around think he is finished. Not in the least. Seems like they are taking advantage of the situation he has with uncompetitive car.

Are you saying Vettel has an uncompetitive car?

Yeah I thought it was an interesting observation.

They've been a hairs breadth away from winning 3 races this year & Leclerc looked to be owning Baku before he binned it in Q2.

Atrocious strategy calls have also had then looking ordinary but I don't agree that the cars noncompetitive.

No car is competitive except Mercedes.

Lt. Drebin wrote:

Jezza13 wrote:

Invade wrote:

Lt. Drebin wrote:

pokerman wrote: Yeah I don't understand this kind of talk when a driver is under contract either, I see the options for Vettel as being to drive for Ferrari in 2020 or retire from F1.

Yeah, it's because those guys around think he is finished. Not in the least. Seems like they are taking advantage of the situation he has with uncompetitive car.

Are you saying Vettel has an uncompetitive car?

Yeah I thought it was an interesting observation.

They've been a hairs breadth away from winning 3 races this year & Leclerc looked to be owning Baku before he binned it in Q2.

Atrocious strategy calls have also had then looking ordinary but I don't agree that the cars noncompetitive.

No car is competitive except Mercedes.

The Ferrari has been capable of winning at least a third of the races this season. That should be good enough for a driver to showcase their talent.

mikeyg123 wrote:

Lt. Drebin wrote:

Jezza13 wrote:

Invade wrote:

Lt. Drebin wrote: Yeah, it's because those guys around think he is finished. Not in the least. Seems like they are taking advantage of the situation he has with uncompetitive car.

Are you saying Vettel has an uncompetitive car?

Yeah I thought it was an interesting observation.

They've been a hairs breadth away from winning 3 races this year & Leclerc looked to be owning Baku before he binned it in Q2.

Atrocious strategy calls have also had then looking ordinary but I don't agree that the cars noncompetitive.

No car is competitive except Mercedes.

The Ferrari has been capable of winning at least a third of the races this season. That should be good enough for a driver to showcase their talent.

In Bahrain, the car broke, so it was not good enough or capable.
In Baku, very questionable to judge according to FP's, surely Leclerc was not good enough to keep away from barriers and Mercedes had party mode anyway.
In Canada, the stewards had their say and Vettel while won, lost at the F1 office table.
In Austria, I don't agree, RBR had its day, Max would overtake Leclerc any way.

Lt. Drebin wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Lt. Drebin wrote:

Jezza13 wrote:

Invade wrote:

Are you saying Vettel has an uncompetitive car?

Yeah I thought it was an interesting observation.

They've been a hairs breadth away from winning 3 races this year & Leclerc looked to be owning Baku before he binned it in Q2.

Atrocious strategy calls have also had then looking ordinary but I don't agree that the cars noncompetitive.

No car is competitive except Mercedes.

The Ferrari has been capable of winning at least a third of the races this season. That should be good enough for a driver to showcase their talent.

In Bahrain, the car broke, so it was not good enough or capable.
In Baku, very questionable to judge according to FP's, surely Leclerc was not good enough to keep away from barriers and Mercedes had party mode anyway.
In Canada, the stewards had their say and Vettel while won, lost at the F1 office table.
In Austria, I don't agree, RBR had its day, Max would overtake Leclerc any way.

Vettel's car didn't break in Bahrain so he had the best car for the weekend. Canada it was capable of the win. Without a mistake Vettel wins. In Austria the Ferrari had the potential to win. It was a possibility.

I'm not saying Vettel has to win all those races. Just that a car good enough to win all the races is good enough for a driver to look good in.

Never mind 2020. Wind back the clock a few weeks and, how about the top step at Canada? I don't want to drag that thread up all over again but I suspect that a lot of pressure would be off his shoulders with a win this season under his belt.