Is Vettel finished?

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sandman1347
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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by sandman1347 »

tim3003 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Bobafett wrote:To people saaying vettel only won titles n stuff cos he had the best car, Same could be said for Hamilton

But I do think he does seem mentally struggling, why? well another season of hamilton getting one up won't be helping but ask yourself this..if he was still a red Bull driver would he have as much pressure from the team/ even if he had max as a team mate.posibly but not as much..

I believe the pressure of being a ferrari driver and the expectation that comes with it, think on it.. look at the past, schumacher succeeded..but partly cos he got most of the winning Benetton guys to jump ship with him but look at other drivers like Prost and alonso, neither of them are slouches, ferrari isn't just another team they are THE team and the added pressure of trying to be the next Ferrari world champion

I think that adds extra pressure Vettel just cannot cope with and does not need
No I don't think that's true. Hamilton has certainly won championships without having the best car. Years like 2008 and 2018 were not years where he had the best car. Even in non-championship years, Hamilton always won races; wheres Vettel had years like 2014 where he didn't win a race while his teammate won 3. Don't get me wrong, I think Vettel has been a great driver throughout his career but he won all 4 titles with the outright best car. I'd say 2012 would be the one year where there were other cars that were generally in the same vicinity. But the ones that had the speed of the Red Bull did not have the reliability and the ones that had the reliability did not have the speed.
I do think there's something in the Ferrari issue. They are notorious for not treating their drivers well - or anyone else, when they screw up. Mercedes has a 'win together lose together' mentality which anyone can see Hamilton thrives on. Ferrari traditionally point the finger first. Vettel must feel the expectations of the whole of Italy on his shoulders, and for a driver who can be suspect under pressure maybe that's too much. As others have said, Christian Horner and Toto Woolf would have handled him better and got him performing consistently at his best. None of the Ferrari team bosses has managed that. When Schumacher and Todt transformed the Ferrari team ethic it seemed they had finally learned. But maybe beneath the surface the old Latin culture still bubbles away..
I don't disagree with that. I think it hurts that Vettel has more tenure there than pretty much anyone on the team. The bosses have been a revolving door and there is no stability. I really think that Ferrari have struggled under the pressure of the brand. As soon as things go wrong, people go into CYA mode and that's never a good thing to have for your organizational culture.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

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I'll politely remind you all that the report button is there for a reason. If you think a post is violating the rules, report it, don't derail the topic at hand by squabbling about it.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by Option or Prime »

Mod Yellow wrote:I'll politely remind you all that the report button is there for a reason. If you think a post is violating the rules, report it, don't derail the topic at hand by squabbling about it.
Where is the report button please?

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

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Option or Prime wrote:
Mod Yellow wrote:I'll politely remind you all that the report button is there for a reason. If you think a post is violating the rules, report it, don't derail the topic at hand by squabbling about it.
Where is the report button please?
It's the exclamation mark button in the lower right hand of every post. If you don't want to report a particular post and just want to report a pattern of behaviour/whatever else is bothering you, we have both the feedback topic at the top of every topic list, plus all the PM links to all of the Moderators in the rules (http://forum.planet-f1.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14979) topic, also at the top of every topic list. All PM's will (eventually :twisted: ) be answered, and the entire moderation team honestly do take each issue and report on it's merits.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by Option or Prime »

OK, I see it now, it wasn't obvious to me that was it so thanks for the explanation.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

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Option or Prime wrote:OK, I see it now, it wasn't obvious to me that was it so thanks for the explanation.
Not a problem. Any other questions, and i'll be happy to take them up in the feedback topic.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by ReservoirDog »

Lt. Drebin wrote:The guy got a pole and won in Canada, only for some inept dudes to take that away from him, and now, six weeks after, he is finished?
Not sure which race you watched, but in Canada 2019, he cracked under pressure once again and made a mistake that a 4x driver leading a team simply shouldn't make. Same circuit where he did the same thing 8 years ago in Button in similar circumstances.

And a swallow doesn't make a summer anyways. Even if he had one stellar race, doesn't mean much when all the races around it are littered with errors and mistakes, and bad quali performances. Kimi won in Austin, but that didn't suddenly make him a great driver.

In short, you don't have a point to make.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by Battle Far »

KingVoid wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:Any notion that he belongs in the historical debates with the likes of Hamilton and Schumacher must be muted now though.
From a historical point of view, he goes in the same drawer as Piquet and Brabham.
Ok, I'll bite. Why don't you think he is in the same class as Alain Prost, or Senna, Lauda, or Stewart for that matter???
Stewart, Senna and Prost were the best drivers of their generation for an extended period of time (around 5 years).

Piquet and Brabham were excellent drivers with a great career paths, but never really the class of the field in terms of ability.

I feel like the latter describes Vettel better.

(As for Lauda, he is somewhere between the two groups)
Correct me if I'm wrong but I wasn't aware that Clark, Stewart, Prost, Senna or Schumacher won their first podiums, races or Championships in the best car, Vettel ONLY EVER won WDCs with the best car.

IMO it's not that he is finished, it's more that he never was

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Battle Far wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:Any notion that he belongs in the historical debates with the likes of Hamilton and Schumacher must be muted now though.
From a historical point of view, he goes in the same drawer as Piquet and Brabham.
Ok, I'll bite. Why don't you think he is in the same class as Alain Prost, or Senna, Lauda, or Stewart for that matter???
Stewart, Senna and Prost were the best drivers of their generation for an extended period of time (around 5 years).

Piquet and Brabham were excellent drivers with a great career paths, but never really the class of the field in terms of ability.

I feel like the latter describes Vettel better.

(As for Lauda, he is somewhere between the two groups)
Correct me if I'm wrong but I wasn't aware that Clark, Stewart, Prost, Senna or Schumacher won their first podiums, races or Championships in the best car, Vettel ONLY EVER won WDCs with the best car.

IMO it's not that he is finished, it's more that he never was
Vettel didn't win his first race or get his first podium with the best car.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by bourbon19 »

tim3003 wrote:After yet another mistake costs Vettel at Silverstone the question has to be asked: does he any longer have what it takes to compete for championships with Hamilton and Verstappen?

It seems to me that the fear of losing is now stronger in his mind than the desire to win, hence a string of mistakes under pressure. At the very top level I think that's a sign of someone on the way down. Vettel has recently married and has 2 children, maybe his mind and more importantly his goals lie increasingly away from F1? If Ferrari take the step of focusing on Leclerc for the championship and make Vettel no. 2 could that be too much for him?

David Coulthard made the point that at the end of his career Michael Schumacher also started rear-ending competitors..

Eddie Jordan thinks Vettel's on his way out - or maybe to Mercedes, swapping with Hamilton in 2021. He's known for dodgy predictions, but he's a pretty shrewd judge of character.
In other words, if you put him in a Mercedes, would he make the same mistakes? No.

When you lead from the front, or generally only have your teammate to beat, everything changes. We've already seen Vettel in that situation. So why should he be finished? He is just waiting on a car. Let's not pretend that without the mistakes he would be leading the championship - or Charles for that matter, without his mistakes. Ferrari has just not been capable of providing that for them this season.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by sandman1347 »

bourbon19 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:After yet another mistake costs Vettel at Silverstone the question has to be asked: does he any longer have what it takes to compete for championships with Hamilton and Verstappen?

It seems to me that the fear of losing is now stronger in his mind than the desire to win, hence a string of mistakes under pressure. At the very top level I think that's a sign of someone on the way down. Vettel has recently married and has 2 children, maybe his mind and more importantly his goals lie increasingly away from F1? If Ferrari take the step of focusing on Leclerc for the championship and make Vettel no. 2 could that be too much for him?

David Coulthard made the point that at the end of his career Michael Schumacher also started rear-ending competitors..

Eddie Jordan thinks Vettel's on his way out - or maybe to Mercedes, swapping with Hamilton in 2021. He's known for dodgy predictions, but he's a pretty shrewd judge of character.
In other words, if you put him in a Mercedes, would he make the same mistakes? No.

When you lead from the front, or generally only have your teammate to beat, everything changes. We've already seen Vettel in that situation. So why should he be finished? He is just waiting on a car. Let's not pretend that without the mistakes he would be leading the championship - or Charles for that matter, without his mistakes. Ferrari has just not been capable of providing that for them this season.
If it was only this season, you would have a very strong point but this run of form started for Vettel last season (a year where he very much did have the car to win a title). I don't think he can share any of the blame for what happened today in Germany and, in general, Ferrari have let him down this season at least as much as he's let them down but this makes more than a year where Sebastian has been in a bad run of form and that starts to look more and more like it's just where he is now and not a bad run.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by Invade »

bourbon19 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:After yet another mistake costs Vettel at Silverstone the question has to be asked: does he any longer have what it takes to compete for championships with Hamilton and Verstappen?

It seems to me that the fear of losing is now stronger in his mind than the desire to win, hence a string of mistakes under pressure. At the very top level I think that's a sign of someone on the way down. Vettel has recently married and has 2 children, maybe his mind and more importantly his goals lie increasingly away from F1? If Ferrari take the step of focusing on Leclerc for the championship and make Vettel no. 2 could that be too much for him?

David Coulthard made the point that at the end of his career Michael Schumacher also started rear-ending competitors..

Eddie Jordan thinks Vettel's on his way out - or maybe to Mercedes, swapping with Hamilton in 2021. He's known for dodgy predictions, but he's a pretty shrewd judge of character.
In other words, if you put him in a Mercedes, would he make the same mistakes? No.

When you lead from the front, or generally only have your teammate to beat, everything changes. We've already seen Vettel in that situation. So why should he be finished? He is just waiting on a car. Let's not pretend that without the mistakes he would be leading the championship - or Charles for that matter, without his mistakes. Ferrari has just not been capable of providing that for them this season.
There is no adequate excuse for the amount of mistakes Vettel has made in the last couple of seasons. Obviously, today wasn't his fault. Hiding behind the argument of the tension of his position and the like is weak sauce.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by bourbon19 »

double post
Last edited by bourbon19 on Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by bourbon19 »

mikeyg123 wrote:Vettel didn't win his first race or get his first podium with the best car.
I would argue he didn't win his first WDC with an overall "best car" either. In 2010, Ferrari, Red Bull and McLaren were all trading off wins and disasters with 6 drivers in it. RBR was often a tad faster, but also the most unreliable. McLaren and Ferrari were a tad slower, but more reliable. There were 4 drivers with a possibility of winning the championship heading into the final race.
sandman1347 wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:After yet another mistake costs Vettel at Silverstone the question has to be asked: does he any longer have what it takes to compete for championships with Hamilton and Verstappen?

It seems to me that the fear of losing is now stronger in his mind than the desire to win, hence a string of mistakes under pressure. At the very top level I think that's a sign of someone on the way down. Vettel has recently married and has 2 children, maybe his mind and more importantly his goals lie increasingly away from F1? If Ferrari take the step of focusing on Leclerc for the championship and make Vettel no. 2 could that be too much for him?

David Coulthard made the point that at the end of his career Michael Schumacher also started rear-ending competitors..

Eddie Jordan thinks Vettel's on his way out - or maybe to Mercedes, swapping with Hamilton in 2021. He's known for dodgy predictions, but he's a pretty shrewd judge of character.
In other words, if you put him in a Mercedes, would he make the same mistakes? No.

When you lead from the front, or generally only have your teammate to beat, everything changes. We've already seen Vettel in that situation. So why should he be finished? He is just waiting on a car. Let's not pretend that without the mistakes he would be leading the championship - or Charles for that matter, without his mistakes. Ferrari has just not been capable of providing that for them this season.
If it was only this season, you would have a very strong point but this run of form started for Vettel last season (a year where he very much did have the car to win a title). I don't think he can share any of the blame for what happened today in Germany and, in general, Ferrari have let him down this season at least as much as he's let them down but this makes more than a year where Sebastian has been in a bad run of form and that starts to look more and more like it's just where he is now and not a bad run.
Well I don't wish to get into an argument over whether or not the Ferrari was equal to the Mercedes last year. Enough to say that if this thread is based on 1 year of driving (last year), then that too is not sufficient reason to declare Vettel finished.

I don't mean to suggest that Vettel makes no mistakes. He has always made mistakes. Lots of mistakes. It is just when you win, they are disregarded. Perhaps the moniker "Crash Kid" will bring back some memories for you. My point was that if he were driving the Mercedes (like when he was driving the 2011 and 2013 Red Bulls) everything is easier. There are fewer mistakes, fewer bad decisions and things run a lot more smoothly on the whole.
Invade wrote: There is no adequate excuse for the amount of mistakes Vettel has made in the last couple of seasons. Obviously, today wasn't his fault. Hiding behind the argument of the tension of his position and the like is weak sauce.
As opposed to the number of mistakes he made in 2010, 2012, 2014? If for whatever reason, his car is not on top, he is going to push and make risky decisions. He is going to make mistakes. I am just not sure why that equates to his being finished? I am not making excuses, I agree he is making mistakes - but imo, it is not because he's sitting in his car thinking about his kid's dental appointment on Monday while trying to pass (which is what the OP suggested - and if that were the case, he should indeed retire) - rather because his risks are not paying off.

I am not arguing the "tension in his position" stuff. I don't believe that either. That is a weight he accepted when he took the job at Ferrari. He knew, or should have known that came with the job. Past Ferrari drivers made that extremely evident to everybody. Ferrari drivers have to shake that off.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by pokerman »

bourbon19 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:After yet another mistake costs Vettel at Silverstone the question has to be asked: does he any longer have what it takes to compete for championships with Hamilton and Verstappen?

It seems to me that the fear of losing is now stronger in his mind than the desire to win, hence a string of mistakes under pressure. At the very top level I think that's a sign of someone on the way down. Vettel has recently married and has 2 children, maybe his mind and more importantly his goals lie increasingly away from F1? If Ferrari take the step of focusing on Leclerc for the championship and make Vettel no. 2 could that be too much for him?

David Coulthard made the point that at the end of his career Michael Schumacher also started rear-ending competitors..

Eddie Jordan thinks Vettel's on his way out - or maybe to Mercedes, swapping with Hamilton in 2021. He's known for dodgy predictions, but he's a pretty shrewd judge of character.
In other words, if you put him in a Mercedes, would he make the same mistakes? No.

When you lead from the front, or generally only have your teammate to beat, everything changes. We've already seen Vettel in that situation. So why should he be finished? He is just waiting on a car. Let's not pretend that without the mistakes he would be leading the championship - or Charles for that matter, without his mistakes. Ferrari has just not been capable of providing that for them this season.
That doesn't explain Vettel's mistakes these past 2 seasons, the premise seems to be that if Vettel is given a dominant car then you will see the best of him, but then I'm afraid were back to the car being the factor and not Vettel as such.
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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by bourbon19 »

pokerman wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:After yet another mistake costs Vettel at Silverstone the question has to be asked: does he any longer have what it takes to compete for championships with Hamilton and Verstappen?

It seems to me that the fear of losing is now stronger in his mind than the desire to win, hence a string of mistakes under pressure. At the very top level I think that's a sign of someone on the way down. Vettel has recently married and has 2 children, maybe his mind and more importantly his goals lie increasingly away from F1? If Ferrari take the step of focusing on Leclerc for the championship and make Vettel no. 2 could that be too much for him?

David Coulthard made the point that at the end of his career Michael Schumacher also started rear-ending competitors..

Eddie Jordan thinks Vettel's on his way out - or maybe to Mercedes, swapping with Hamilton in 2021. He's known for dodgy predictions, but he's a pretty shrewd judge of character.
In other words, if you put him in a Mercedes, would he make the same mistakes? No.

When you lead from the front, or generally only have your teammate to beat, everything changes. We've already seen Vettel in that situation. So why should he be finished? He is just waiting on a car. Let's not pretend that without the mistakes he would be leading the championship - or Charles for that matter, without his mistakes. Ferrari has just not been capable of providing that for them this season.
That doesn't explain Vettel's mistakes these past 2 seasons,
I talked about that in the post right above yours. I don't understand why mistakes have to be "explained". They have always existed and will always exist. And Vettel has always made a lot of them. More in some years than others, and generally, the better the car, the fewer the mistakes. Last year was only remarkable because he made 6 or 7 mistakes with a pretty good car, but poor seasons happen. Should Hamilton have given up based on his mistakes in the year Jensen won the title? Of course not. Vettel has had just 2 mistakes so far, but I expect more. Giving up on account of mistakes would be insane, imo.
the premise seems to be that if Vettel is given a dominant car then you will see the best of him, but then I'm afraid were back to the car being the factor and not Vettel as such.
I didn't mean that. Of course both the car and driver are factors. Just that a dominant car makes things easier (driving at the front, fewer issues to manage, etc)

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by pokerman »

bourbon19 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:After yet another mistake costs Vettel at Silverstone the question has to be asked: does he any longer have what it takes to compete for championships with Hamilton and Verstappen?

It seems to me that the fear of losing is now stronger in his mind than the desire to win, hence a string of mistakes under pressure. At the very top level I think that's a sign of someone on the way down. Vettel has recently married and has 2 children, maybe his mind and more importantly his goals lie increasingly away from F1? If Ferrari take the step of focusing on Leclerc for the championship and make Vettel no. 2 could that be too much for him?

David Coulthard made the point that at the end of his career Michael Schumacher also started rear-ending competitors..

Eddie Jordan thinks Vettel's on his way out - or maybe to Mercedes, swapping with Hamilton in 2021. He's known for dodgy predictions, but he's a pretty shrewd judge of character.
In other words, if you put him in a Mercedes, would he make the same mistakes? No.

When you lead from the front, or generally only have your teammate to beat, everything changes. We've already seen Vettel in that situation. So why should he be finished? He is just waiting on a car. Let's not pretend that without the mistakes he would be leading the championship - or Charles for that matter, without his mistakes. Ferrari has just not been capable of providing that for them this season.
That doesn't explain Vettel's mistakes these past 2 seasons,
I talked about that in the post right above yours. I don't understand why mistakes have to be "explained". They have always existed and will always exist. And Vettel has always made a lot of them. More in some years than others, and generally, the better the car, the fewer the mistakes. Last year was only remarkable because he made 6 or 7 mistakes with a pretty good car, but poor seasons happen. Should Hamilton have given up based on his mistakes in the year Jensen won the title? Of course not. Vettel has had just 2 mistakes so far, but I expect more. Giving up on account of mistakes would be insane, imo.
the premise seems to be that if Vettel is given a dominant car then you will see the best of him, but then I'm afraid were back to the car being the factor and not Vettel as such.
I didn't mean that. Of course both the car and driver are factors. Just that a dominant car makes things easier (driving at the front, fewer issues to manage, etc)
I'm not making a case for Vettel retiring, I don't want him to retire.

Yet again you're making a case for Vettel having a dominant car then the mistakes will be greatly reduced, that's not a great indictment for Vettel, drivers don't automatically make mistakes as a result of not having the best car.

Hamilton made a lot of mistakes in 2011 but there was no follow up from that, Vettel's not really been convincing since 2017 considering the level of car he had and actually this season he's made 3 mistakes, spinning in Bahrain under pressure from Hamilton, missing the chicane in Canada again under pressure from Hamilton, then crashing into Verstappen last time out.

Vettel is one of the fastest drivers in F1 so who wants to see him retire but the mistakes are too much and he's bound to get critiqued for them.
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2014: Champion
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2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by Battle Far »

Notwithstanding all my other opinions

Probably not after today...

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Battle Far wrote:Notwithstanding all my other opinions

Probably not after today...
I don't know. I think today indicates he may have decided to call it a day if anything. For the first 50 or so laps he was driving around with midfield pace.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by bourbon19 »

pokerman wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:After yet another mistake costs Vettel at Silverstone the question has to be asked: does he any longer have what it takes to compete for championships with Hamilton and Verstappen?

It seems to me that the fear of losing is now stronger in his mind than the desire to win, hence a string of mistakes under pressure. At the very top level I think that's a sign of someone on the way down. Vettel has recently married and has 2 children, maybe his mind and more importantly his goals lie increasingly away from F1? If Ferrari take the step of focusing on Leclerc for the championship and make Vettel no. 2 could that be too much for him?

David Coulthard made the point that at the end of his career Michael Schumacher also started rear-ending competitors..

Eddie Jordan thinks Vettel's on his way out - or maybe to Mercedes, swapping with Hamilton in 2021. He's known for dodgy predictions, but he's a pretty shrewd judge of character.
In other words, if you put him in a Mercedes, would he make the same mistakes? No.

When you lead from the front, or generally only have your teammate to beat, everything changes. We've already seen Vettel in that situation. So why should he be finished? He is just waiting on a car. Let's not pretend that without the mistakes he would be leading the championship - or Charles for that matter, without his mistakes. Ferrari has just not been capable of providing that for them this season.
That doesn't explain Vettel's mistakes these past 2 seasons,
I talked about that in the post right above yours. I don't understand why mistakes have to be "explained". They have always existed and will always exist. And Vettel has always made a lot of them. More in some years than others, and generally, the better the car, the fewer the mistakes. Last year was only remarkable because he made 6 or 7 mistakes with a pretty good car, but poor seasons happen. Should Hamilton have given up based on his mistakes in the year Jensen won the title? Of course not. Vettel has had just 2 mistakes so far, but I expect more. Giving up on account of mistakes would be insane, imo.
the premise seems to be that if Vettel is given a dominant car then you will see the best of him, but then I'm afraid were back to the car being the factor and not Vettel as such.
I didn't mean that. Of course both the car and driver are factors. Just that a dominant car makes things easier (driving at the front, fewer issues to manage, etc)
I'm not making a case for Vettel retiring, I don't want him to retire.

Yet again you're making a case for Vettel having a dominant car then the mistakes will be greatly reduced, that's not a great indictment for Vettel, drivers don't automatically make mistakes as a result of not having the best car.

Hamilton made a lot of mistakes in 2011 but there was no follow up from that, Vettel's not really been convincing since 2017 considering the level of car he had and actually this season he's made 3 mistakes, spinning in Bahrain under pressure from Hamilton, missing the chicane in Canada again under pressure from Hamilton, then crashing into Verstappen last time out.
Well as Hamilton and others showed today, mistakes happen. Vettel, in the same conditions did not make any. It is a grab bag and to me, an therefore, an unconvincing argument to advocate retirement (which you are not doing, but some were). Agreed that a dominant car won't save you, I do believe it helps reduce the mistakes though, so we'd have to agree to disagree on that. And Canada, really? Unwarranted penalties do not count as mistakes.
Vettel is one of the fastest drivers in F1 so who wants to see him retire but the mistakes are too much and he's bound to get critiqued for them.
Agreed. So it will be for Hamilton, Leclerc and Bottas today - that's racing.
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Johnson
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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by Johnson »

Battle Far wrote:Notwithstanding all my other opinions

Probably not after today...
Do we judge only on the last race?

He remained error free today, which was good. But he had a poor pace at times leading to thoughts he had a car problem. He got a good result today but again looked slower than Leclerc who himself is not a good wet weather driver. I think I would back Vettel over Leclerc in the wet still though. Once it dried out he overtook a TR and a Point Racing. The result was good though, I expected him to not finish today once it was wet and he was in the pack.

However, we’ve had 1 wet race in 3 years and get at most 2-3 per season. He is still in big trouble in the dry Vs Leclerc.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by Lt. Drebin »

Yes, Vettel has finished - second from the last position.

The circulating story is that the car is not after his liking. Just like in RBR 2014.
The end is near

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by Todd »

It looks like Vettel gambled on a dry setup. His suspension was too stiff in the wet, but he kept the car on track with his impressive skill. Then his gamble paid off as the track dried. It only worked because he drove error-free with a tricky car in the wet conditions while people with better compromises made mistakes. If he isn't good enough, then what are LeClerc, Bottas, and Hulkenberg?
Does anyone think that there has ever been a moment of frustration with his father when Max has pointed out to Jos that he was the Pierre Gasly of 1994?

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IDrinkYourMilkshake
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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by IDrinkYourMilkshake »

Todd wrote:It looks like Vettel gambled on a dry setup. His suspension was too stiff in the wet, but he kept the car on track with his impressive skill. Then his gamble paid off as the track dried. It only worked because he drove error-free with a tricky car in the wet conditions while people with better compromises made mistakes. If he isn't good enough, then what are LeClerc, Bottas, and Hulkenberg?
Your source for information on his setup?

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by Todd »

IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
Todd wrote:It looks like Vettel gambled on a dry setup. His suspension was too stiff in the wet, but he kept the car on track with his impressive skill. Then his gamble paid off as the track dried. It only worked because he drove error-free with a tricky car in the wet conditions while people with better compromises made mistakes. If he isn't good enough, then what are LeClerc, Bottas, and Hulkenberg?
Your source for information on his setup?
43 years of watching F1 including this race.
Does anyone think that there has ever been a moment of frustration with his father when Max has pointed out to Jos that he was the Pierre Gasly of 1994?

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Johnson
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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by Johnson »

Todd wrote:It looks like Vettel gambled on a dry setup. His suspension was too stiff in the wet, but he kept the car on track with his impressive skill. Then his gamble paid off as the track dried. It only worked because he drove error-free with a tricky car in the wet conditions while people with better compromises made mistakes. If he isn't good enough, then what are LeClerc, Bottas, and Hulkenberg?
We’ve had 1 wet race in 60 and he did well in a “lottery” type race.

Considering Vettels car was the only one not in Parc Ferme and the forecast ALL pre race was rain rain rain once we got to Sunday morning.
All other cars had to set up for dry qualifying and potential wet race. Vettel just had to set up for a wet race. He likely had the most wet setup of anybody.

Vettel was not particularly quick when it was dry either. Let’s remember he was racing TR and a point racing. Those cars were 1.7 and 1.4 second off in dry qualifying yesterday.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by Todd »

Johnson wrote:
Todd wrote:It looks like Vettel gambled on a dry setup. His suspension was too stiff in the wet, but he kept the car on track with his impressive skill. Then his gamble paid off as the track dried. It only worked because he drove error-free with a tricky car in the wet conditions while people with better compromises made mistakes. If he isn't good enough, then what are LeClerc, Bottas, and Hulkenberg?
We’ve had 1 wet race in 60 and he did well in a “lottery” type race.

Considering Vettels car was the only one not in Parc Ferme and the forecast ALL pre race was rain rain rain once we got to Sunday morning.
All other cars had to set up for dry qualifying and potential wet race. Vettel just had to set up for a wet race. He likely had the most wet setup of anybody.

Vettel was not particularly quick when it was dry either. Let’s remember he was racing TR and a point racing. Those cars were 1.7 and 1.4 second off in dry qualifying yesterday.
The drivers had more control over their outcomes in this race than in any other this season. That's the opposite of a lottery. When I turned on Sky coverage forty minutes before the race start, the commentators were saying that starting on intermediates was going to be the way to go because the track was going to dry quickly. It was very close to the scheduled start when the rain picked up for a bit and the teams decided to start on wets exclusively instead of a mix of intermediates and wets.
Does anyone think that there has ever been a moment of frustration with his father when Max has pointed out to Jos that he was the Pierre Gasly of 1994?

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by trento »

Todd wrote:It looks like Vettel gambled on a dry setup. His suspension was too stiff in the wet, but he kept the car on track with his impressive skill. Then his gamble paid off as the track dried. It only worked because he drove error-free with a tricky car in the wet conditions while people with better compromises made mistakes. If he isn't good enough, then what are LeClerc, Bottas, and Hulkenberg?
All drivers make mistakes. For this race, Vettel was made less errors but u gotta consider the overall season, including Canada, Bahrain etc. And those were normal races.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by pokerman »

bourbon19 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
bourbon19 wrote: In other words, if you put him in a Mercedes, would he make the same mistakes? No.

When you lead from the front, or generally only have your teammate to beat, everything changes. We've already seen Vettel in that situation. So why should he be finished? He is just waiting on a car. Let's not pretend that without the mistakes he would be leading the championship - or Charles for that matter, without his mistakes. Ferrari has just not been capable of providing that for them this season.
That doesn't explain Vettel's mistakes these past 2 seasons,
I talked about that in the post right above yours. I don't understand why mistakes have to be "explained". They have always existed and will always exist. And Vettel has always made a lot of them. More in some years than others, and generally, the better the car, the fewer the mistakes. Last year was only remarkable because he made 6 or 7 mistakes with a pretty good car, but poor seasons happen. Should Hamilton have given up based on his mistakes in the year Jensen won the title? Of course not. Vettel has had just 2 mistakes so far, but I expect more. Giving up on account of mistakes would be insane, imo.
the premise seems to be that if Vettel is given a dominant car then you will see the best of him, but then I'm afraid were back to the car being the factor and not Vettel as such.
I didn't mean that. Of course both the car and driver are factors. Just that a dominant car makes things easier (driving at the front, fewer issues to manage, etc)
I'm not making a case for Vettel retiring, I don't want him to retire.

Yet again you're making a case for Vettel having a dominant car then the mistakes will be greatly reduced, that's not a great indictment for Vettel, drivers don't automatically make mistakes as a result of not having the best car.

Hamilton made a lot of mistakes in 2011 but there was no follow up from that, Vettel's not really been convincing since 2017 considering the level of car he had and actually this season he's made 3 mistakes, spinning in Bahrain under pressure from Hamilton, missing the chicane in Canada again under pressure from Hamilton, then crashing into Verstappen last time out.
Well as Hamilton and others showed today, mistakes happen. Vettel, in the same conditions did not make any. It is a grab bag and to me, an therefore, an unconvincing argument to advocate retirement (which you are not doing, but some were). Agreed that a dominant car won't save you, I do believe it helps reduce the mistakes though, so we'd have to agree to disagree on that. And Canada, really? Unwarranted penalties do not count as mistakes.
Vettel is one of the fastest drivers in F1 so who wants to see him retire but the mistakes are too much and he's bound to get critiqued for them.
Agreed. So it will be for Hamilton, Leclerc and Bottas today - that's racing.
You compare all of Vettel's mistakes with drivers having one bad race?
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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by pokerman »

Good to see Vettel have a good result today at his home race.
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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by Filip »

Inappropriate post removed.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by bourbon19 »

pokerman wrote:You compare all of Vettel's mistakes with drivers having one bad race?
This season? Sure, why not. Vettel's had 2. Hamilton had at least that many today. Bottas has had 2 this season and Leclerc 4 (Monaco, Azerbaijan, Spain and this one). Mistakes happen.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by Johnson »

Vettel had 2 mistakes this season?

Just from the top of my head, going off track in Canada. Spinning in Bahrain, resulting in needing new tyres and wing and rear ending Verstappen at Silverstone.

Mistakes don’t happen that frequently for top drivers, it was 10 mistakes in 20 races. They don’t happen at that rate. I know you are now trying to highlight others mistakes to justify Vettels but in the last 25 races, he has made more than double any other top driver. The only one close is Leclerc who himself has made far too many errors now. Leclerc needs to improve in that area, but it’s only his 2nd season.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by pokerman »

bourbon19 wrote:
pokerman wrote:You compare all of Vettel's mistakes with drivers having one bad race?
This season? Sure, why not. Vettel's had 2. Hamilton had at least that many today. Bottas has had 2 this season and Leclerc 4 (Monaco, Azerbaijan, Spain and this one). Mistakes happen.
Has Johnson posted Vettel has made 3 mistakes this season but then again the thread is not just about this season.
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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by Rockie »

pokerman wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
pokerman wrote:You compare all of Vettel's mistakes with drivers having one bad race?
This season? Sure, why not. Vettel's had 2. Hamilton had at least that many today. Bottas has had 2 this season and Leclerc 4 (Monaco, Azerbaijan, Spain and this one). Mistakes happen.
Has Johnson posted Vettel has made 3 mistakes this season but then again the thread is not just about this season.
Hamilton crashed out in front, you crucified Vettel for this last season!

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by minchy »

I personally don't rate Vettel that highly and have been thinking since this thread came into being that maybe his time as Ferrari's no.1 was over, but credit where it's due, he drove a great race today when it mattered. We'll just have to wait and see if it continues.
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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
pokerman wrote:You compare all of Vettel's mistakes with drivers having one bad race?
This season? Sure, why not. Vettel's had 2. Hamilton had at least that many today. Bottas has had 2 this season and Leclerc 4 (Monaco, Azerbaijan, Spain and this one). Mistakes happen.
Has Johnson posted Vettel has made 3 mistakes this season but then again the thread is not just about this season.
Hamilton crashed out in front, you crucified Vettel for this last season!
Did I or did I just question the people who said it was merely bad luck?
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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by KingVoid »

Johnson wrote:Vettel had 2 mistakes this season?

Just from the top of my head, going off track in Canada. Spinning in Bahrain, resulting in needing new tyres and wing and rear ending Verstappen at Silverstone.

Mistakes don’t happen that frequently for top drivers
If you are just talking about this season, you are wrong.

Hamilton has made four major mistakes. His penalty in Austria qualifying, his broken front wing in the race, his crash in Germany, and subsequent spin in Germany.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by Johnson »

KingVoid wrote:
Johnson wrote:Vettel had 2 mistakes this season?

Just from the top of my head, going off track in Canada. Spinning in Bahrain, resulting in needing new tyres and wing and rear ending Verstappen at Silverstone.

Mistakes don’t happen that frequently for top drivers
If you are just talking about this season, you are wrong.

Hamilton has made four major mistakes. His penalty in Austria qualifying, his broken front wing in the race, his crash in Germany, and subsequent spin in Germany.
? When did I mention Hamilton. It was claimed Vettel has made 2 errors this season. I was putting that right.

The reason for this thread is the amount of errors Vettel made from Germany 2018 to Silverstone 2019, in that period he made at least 10 major errors in 10 different races, that’s the period that has raised ALL the questions.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by Option or Prime »

I'm not sure that Hamilton, Leclerc and Bottas and crashing out so Vettel inherits the place, behind Verstappen indicates a revival for SV.

Its all very well pointing out Hamiltons mistakes but the difference is that they are not wrecking his chance of the WDC. If Hamilton lost the WDC because of a succession of mistakes this year then I would completely agree.

You have to say that a big part of Vettel's problems come directly from Ferrari themselves. Its hard to be fault free when team errors are just round the corner. In fact Leclerc is building up a decent history of errors this year!

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