Is Vettel finished?

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tim3003
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Is Vettel finished?

Post by tim3003 »

After yet another mistake costs Vettel at Silverstone the question has to be asked: does he any longer have what it takes to compete for championships with Hamilton and Verstappen?

It seems to me that the fear of losing is now stronger in his mind than the desire to win, hence a string of mistakes under pressure. At the very top level I think that's a sign of someone on the way down. Vettel has recently married and has 2 children, maybe his mind and more importantly his goals lie increasingly away from F1? If Ferrari take the step of focusing on Leclerc for the championship and make Vettel no. 2 could that be too much for him?

David Coulthard made the point that at the end of his career Michael Schumacher also started rear-ending competitors..

Eddie Jordan thinks Vettel's on his way out - or maybe to Mercedes, swapping with Hamilton in 2021. He's known for dodgy predictions, but he's a pretty shrewd judge of character.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by Flash2k11 »

I think the summer break cant come fast enough for Vettel, he has the look of a man who the sky is falling down on right now. If he's still phoning it in after the summer break, then I think he is done at Ferrari. Problem is, where does he go from there? Right now I dont think either Mercedes or Red Bull would want him, even if Hamilton does leave Mercedes, they have their own hot young things in the wings and Vettel is currently in the process of being overhauled by Ferrari's own version... and if he can't keep Leclerc quiet in the same car, what chance does he have against Max?

The errors when battling under pressure are now past the point of coincidence too, Hamilton has had Vettel mentally parked for a year or 2 now, and now Max is getting to the same point. You can't consistently beat your peers when they know all they have to do is keep it tight and wait for the error to come.
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Johnson
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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by Johnson »

Pretty much, he is a very good driver. But Leclerc is on 1/6th of his wages and already about equal to him and on the rise, whilst being 10 years younger.

Even if Vettel does fix his issues, no big team will pay him the big money now, nor possibly even want him anyway.

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Invade
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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by Invade »

I don't think he's finished, but he's been making all manner of errors for a sustained period now, and is probably struggling against better talents. Leclerc is finding him out and Hamilton is clearly better, as is Verstappen. Tough spot for Vettel and his lack of racecraft is starting to become badly exposed.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by FormulaFun »

Yeah, he is down and out. He is not the same driver in the hybrid era - his success was heavily reliant on the blown diffuser at red bull and when the new regs came in in 2014 he looked immediately lost. 2015 and 2016 he looked better but that was because the pressure was totally off. But 2017 and 2018 Hamilton destroyed him as a driver, his confidence, his ego, I think even his passion for racing. You can hear how constantly depressed he sounds over team radio after his mistakes, even today he just sounded totally emotionless after the crash, casually just trying to shift blame somehow despite literally rear-ending someone.

He is finished, 2018 killed him off and he can not recover.

He keeps hinting at leaving F1 and I think genuinely it's on his mind because he has nowhere to go now other than to a midfield team if he wants to escape the pressure and i don't think he can be bothered with that. He keeps moaning about the cars, the tyres the racing etc. but I think basically his problem isn't with F1, its that he CAN'T win.

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Invade
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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by Invade »

FormulaFun wrote:Yeah, he is down and out. He is not the same driver in the hybrid era - his success was heavily reliant on the blown diffuser at red bull and when the new regs came in in 2014 he looked immediately lost. 2015 and 2016 he looked better but that was because the pressure was totally off. But 2017 and 2018 Hamilton destroyed him as a driver, his confidence, his ego, I think even his passion for racing. You can hear how constantly depressed he sounds over team radio after his mistakes, even today he just sounded totally emotionless after the crash, casually just trying to shift blame somehow despite literally rear-ending someone.

He is finished, 2018 killed him off and he can not recover.

He keeps hinting at leaving F1 and I think genuinely it's on his mind because he has nowhere to go now other than to a midfield team if he wants to escape the pressure and i don't think he can be bothered with that. He keeps moaning about the cars, the tyres the racing etc. but I think basically his problem isn't with F1, its that he CAN'T win.

What's interesting about Ferrari is two very long periods of time where they did have the car for race wins but didn't capitalise. The two long periods I'm thinking of are the second half of 2017 and 2019 to date. What's missing?

The driver?

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Black_Flag_11
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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

He's not the driver he once was on current form, that's for sure. He's still better than most drivers on the grid though so whether he is finished or not depends completely on what he wants from F1.

If he wants a title then realistically he's going to have to find that 2013, 2015 form again with Leclerc alongside him, and if he doesn't feel he can do that then yeah I imagine he's probably finished.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by FrusEldar »

His mind is not at the right place. Maybe he needs a sport psychologist and he neede to rediscover the joy of driving...

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by mikeyg123 »

To be honest he hasn't consistently looked top tier since 2015.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

FrusEldar wrote:His mind is not at the right place. Maybe he needs a sport psychologist and he neede to rediscover the joy of driving...
It still amazes me that the big teams dont have a sports psychologist on the payroll for their drivers tbh. I've said it before but I recently thought about it again when listening to one of Rosbergs podcasts, he was talking about how much it helped him in 2016 going to see one.

With how much care and attention to every little detail in this sport you would think the teams would want to make sure their drivers are in the best place mentally at all times.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by Mort Canard »

I think that Seb's main problem right now is that both Lewis and Max have his number. They know that he can be harried into a mistake if the pressure is kept on him. Today Seb's mistake was after Max was already by, but it was definitely a mistake. All the other drivers have seen this and if they CAN GET TO Seb, they can often cause him to stumble.

Once Charles has broken through for a win, I am sure that he will put himself to capitalize whenever Merc are vulnerable. Max does the same. I am thinking that Seb will reliably be in position to jump when the opportunity comes.
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tim3003
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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by tim3003 »

FrusEldar wrote:His mind is not at the right place. Maybe he needs a sport psychologist and he neede to rediscover the joy of driving...
I don't doubt Ferrari have someone to help him with that. The problem with Vettel is; he was like this in his last year with Red Bull when Ricciardo beat him up. For a while at Ferrari it looked like he'd rediscovered his mojo but now he's down again. I wonder if deep down 4 titles is enough for him.. Maybe if he'd beaten Hamilton to 5 last year he'd be more motivated, but he didn't - not least due to his own errors, so now maybe he doesn't really believe he's the best any more.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by JN23 »

mikeyg123 wrote:To be honest he hasn't consistently looked top tier since 2015.
What about 2017? I thought he had a pretty good season that year. Agree on 2016, 2018 and so far this year though.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by mikeyg123 »

JN23 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:To be honest he hasn't consistently looked top tier since 2015.
What about 2017? I thought he had a pretty good season that year. Agree on 2016, 2018 and so far this year though.
He made a few mistakes through 2017 as well.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

I think it is a bit harsh on Vettel. Despite Leclerc losing probably around 25 points down to bad luck and Ferrari supporting Vettel, That would still not put Leclerc much above Vettel in points. If we are saying Vettel is done, I don't understand how the same people can be saying Leclerc is amazing. Vettel is making a lot of mistakes, but on race day, his pace was strong last time and this time out. The mistake looked poor certainly, but it isn't like Leclerc hasn't done worse. He could have kept his car running Monaco but he drove stupidly quick with a puncture on a really short and slow track. He blew his race. I know Vettel is far more experienced and should be better, but he is nowhere near ready to be out of the sport. If he's been that bad and Leclerc has been outstanding and the points are as close as they are, Vettel has either been better than he's given credit for or Leclerc hasn't had a great season either. I think it is more that Leclerc just didn't start well but he's getting it togeather now and Vettel is making too many mistakes. But he isn't always like this.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by Badgeronimous »

He needs a change.

He has a look of somebody completely out of love with his job.

However Vettel very much is getting it never rains but it pours with the way things go for him. It just never seems to go right just now.
Last edited by Badgeronimous on Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by sandman1347 »

Vettel hasn't lost his speed. He's still extremely quick most of the time. When people say that he needs to get to his form from 2015 or 2013; they don't seem to realize that most of how he looked in those years was down to him being comfortably faster than Raikkonen or Webber. In 2013, the Red Bull was the dominant car and Mark was on his way to retirement. In 2015, Ferrari were best of the rest behind the dominant Mercedes and Kimi posed no threat to Vettel whatsoever (Kimi had much stronger years relative to Seb after that). Basically Vettel was in third by default but he got credit for taking the fight to Mercedes.

The main thing about those two years and 2011 was that he didn't make many errors in those years but it's starting to look like that is more the exception than the rule. He made tons of errors in his first few seasons from 2007-2010. From 2011-2013 he was quite good at avoiding mistakes but he was also generally out front and in the fastest car. That does help you to keep your nose clean. From 2014 on, he has been back to making more than his share of errors. 2015 was an exception but these last two years have been brutal.

Is he still top tier? That depends on how large you make your top tier. If you want to be very restrictive; you might say that only Hamilton and Verstappen are top tier drivers today. If you want to be more expansive, you might include the likes of Ricciardo, Leclerc and Vettel. Even with the mistakes that he makes, Seb still achieves high results more often than not so I don't think you can overreact. Any notion that he belongs in the historical debates with the likes of Hamilton and Schumacher must be muted now though.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by Option or Prime »

Ferrari won't bin him, they will stay loyal, he will decide for himself. I can't see him in F1 next year though. He is no longer married exclusively to F1 in the same way as the other top 5 in the standings are.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by sandman1347 »

Option or Prime wrote:Ferrari won't bin him, they will stay loyal, he will decide for himself. I can't see him in F1 next year though. He is no longer married exclusively to F1 in the same way as the other top 5 in the standings are.
You genuinely think that he will retire after this season?

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by mikeyg123 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:I think it is a bit harsh on Vettel. Despite Leclerc losing probably around 25 points down to bad luck and Ferrari supporting Vettel, That would still not put Leclerc much above Vettel in points. If we are saying Vettel is done, I don't understand how the same people can be saying Leclerc is amazing. Vettel is making a lot of mistakes, but on race day, his pace was strong last time and this time out. The mistake looked poor certainly, but it isn't like Leclerc hasn't done worse. He could have kept his car running Monaco but he drove stupidly quick with a puncture on a really short and slow track. He blew his race. I know Vettel is far more experienced and should be better, but he is nowhere near ready to be out of the sport. If he's been that bad and Leclerc has been outstanding and the points are as close as they are, Vettel has either been better than he's given credit for or Leclerc hasn't had a great season either. I think it is more that Leclerc just didn't start well but he's getting it togeather now and Vettel is making too many mistakes. But he isn't always like this.
Vettel has decent pace but he has been making these mistakes for way to long now for it to just be a blip. Leclerc is judged to a different standard. He's in only his 2nd season, his 1st in a big team. In that context he has done very well so far. Vettel as a 4 time champ is obviously judged to a much higher standard than a virtual rookie.

Context matters with these things.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by Covalent »

I think I may be the only one (including Vettel himself even?) that would put at least part of the blame on Verstappen. For a brief moment it looked like Verstappen was going to defend the right hand side of the corner and so Vettel went for the inside line and when Verstappen moved back to the left Vettel was too close and in the dirty air and could do nothing but crash.

I wouldn't have given a penalty, not that I'm upset that he was given one.

To answer the OP I have felt for some time that he isn't all in anymore. Don't know if it's the family or something else but to me he seems about ready to retire.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

Formula One fans .. Vettel has a bad day and they are planning his retirement dinner.

Yes, he can make mistakes, but he is still very quick. As far as challenging his racecraft, he guessed Verstappen would swing right to follow the racing line. And before you can snap your fingers, everything was closed off for him and he made contact.

And to think that exactly one year ago he was leading the WDC in points
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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by Option or Prime »

sandman1347 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:Ferrari won't bin him, they will stay loyal, he will decide for himself. I can't see him in F1 next year though. He is no longer married exclusively to F1 in the same way as the other top 5 in the standings are.
You genuinely think that he will retire after this season?
I think so, he is a deep thinking and proud driver, he seems disillusioned with the current rules format and wants to control his own destiny I'm sure. You have to ask yourself with 11 races left that he would have to make it to the end of the season without making any more serious errors. Otherwise the talk of F1 will be all about his mistakes rather than the fact that he is still a fast driver.

He might be the person to manage Ferrari's race days rather than Mattia Binotto, goodness only knows they need someone who can spot a daft strategy when it gets suggested!

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by KingVoid »

These last 12 months have been so unbelievably bad, it’s hard to believe we are watching the same guy from 2015. I refuse to believe those who claim Vettel can’t race either. He’s made many great overtakes in his career. His current struggles are psychological.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by KingVoid »

sandman1347 wrote:Any notion that he belongs in the historical debates with the likes of Hamilton and Schumacher must be muted now though.
From a historical point of view, he goes in the same drawer as Piquet and Brabham.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:Formula One fans .. Vettel has a bad day and they are planning his retirement dinner.

Yes, he can make mistakes, but he is still very quick. As far as challenging his racecraft, he guessed Verstappen would swing right to follow the racing line. And before you can snap your fingers, everything was closed off for him and he made contact.

And to think that exactly one year ago he was leading the WDC in points
After making a brilliant move for the lead no less.

I dont think criticism of Vettel is undue, especially when we have seen he is capable of more, but I do think it's true that now he has got this reputation for making mistakes he is judged to a far harsher degree than others who haven't got this black mark against them.

If Vettel had made the error Verstappen made coming out of the pits today, or even the error Hamilton made in Austria breaking his wing on the sausage kerbs, you can imagine the posts on here about it being another example of Vettel messing up.

It's going to be hard for him to dig himself out of this hole as he's going to be held to a higher standard than others until he can prove himself again.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by mcdo »

I think he needs a fresh environment but I don't know where. Dunno why Merc would go for him, dunno why he would partner Max at Red Bull, McLaren are full, dunno why he would partner Dan at Renault... Alfa with Kimi?

I guess he's stuck where he is but he's never going to win a title with Ferrari. He hasn't come close in 5 years of trying
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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by FormulaFun »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:Formula One fans .. Vettel has a bad day and they are planning his retirement dinner.

Yes, he can make mistakes, but he is still very quick. As far as challenging his racecraft, he guessed Verstappen would swing right to follow the racing line. And before you can snap your fingers, everything was closed off for him and he made contact.

And to think that exactly one year ago he was leading the WDC in points
Why you acting like this is the first mistake he's made? He has had a really really rough couple of years and has hinted himself at retirement

It's not out of the blue

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by DOLOMITE »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:Formula One fans .. Vettel has a bad day and they are planning his retirement dinner.

Yes, he can make mistakes, but he is still very quick. As far as challenging his racecraft, he guessed Verstappen would swing right to follow the racing line. And before you can snap your fingers, everything was closed off for him and he made contact.

And to think that exactly one year ago he was leading the WDC in points

Well maybe you blinky'd and mcmissed the others but it's one of several bad days. Too many for a 4 x WDC and a driver who should be leading the team. The mistake today was a bad but compounded by a "coming of age" race by Leclerc. I've said before you don't luck into 4 world titles but it's pretty much a fact that Vettels stock has only dropped since his last title. In that same period Alonso and Hamilton I would argue increased theirs but in different ways. Alonso by continuing to get absolutely everything out his car and demolish team mates, Hamilton by capitalising on the dream car/team he has and being virtually mistake free every weekend.

Vettel is fast, and can race, but that quote of Alonso's along the lines of "lets see how good he is when he doesn't have the best car" is ringing louder every race.
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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by Lt. Drebin »

The guy got a pole and won in Canada, only for some inept dudes to take that away from him, and now, six weeks after, he is finished?
The end is near

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by sandman1347 »

Lt. Drebin wrote:The guy got a pole and won in Canada, only for some inept dudes to take that away from him, and now, six weeks after, he is finished?
He got pole but he didn't win. He made a mistake that cost him the win. That's part of the reason for the existence of this thread.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by kleefton »

Not a vettel fan but I have the utmost respect for him as a driver. I thought that he would come out this year guns blazing and ready to shut all of the naysayers up. But then he went on to resort to his old tricks against Hamilton in Bahrain. That is when I really started to worry about him. From then on he has made two huge mistakes and my faith in him getting it back together is almost completely gone. Now I’m sure he will never be the same driver. I am not sure what caused this decline. Maybe it’s a combination of a worse car, a strong teammate and the brilliance of Hamilton and Verstappen. But it is sad to see such a great champion fall off so quickly. Is he done? I’m not so sure. I think he still loves racing but I also don’t see him at Sauber for example, being Kimi’s teammate again. If he doesn’t get the right drive he will be out. The big question for me is: will Ferrari give him another contract?

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by Invade »

Lt. Drebin wrote:The guy got a pole and won in Canada, only for some inept dudes to take that away from him, and now, six weeks after, he is finished?
Interesting fantasy you got goin' there. :twisted:

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by sandman1347 »

kleefton wrote:Not a vettel fan but I have the utmost respect for him as a driver. I thought that he would come out this year guns blazing and ready to shut all of the naysayers up. But then he went on to resort to his old tricks against Hamilton in Bahrain. That is when I really started to worry about him. From then on he has made two huge mistakes and my faith in him getting it back together is almost completely gone. Now I’m sure he will never be the same driver. I am not sure what caused this decline. Maybe it’s a combination of a worse car, a strong teammate and the brilliance of Hamilton and Verstappen. But it is sad to see such a great champion fall off so quickly. Is he done? I’m not so sure. I think he still loves racing but I also don’t see him at Sauber for example, being Kimi’s teammate again. If he doesn’t get the right drive he will be out. The big question for me is: will Ferrari give him another contract?
I respect Vettel as well and it is shocking to see his current form. One thing I would legitimately say is that Vettel; unlike Hamilton, Senna, Schumacher or Alonso; does not seem to have significantly improved or grown as a driver since his younger days. There are noticeable differences between Hamilton's driving today by comparison to 10 years ago (particularly in the areas of risk mitigation and decision making). I don't know that I would say that for Vettel. He doesn't seem to be able to self-analyze and then self-improve.

One thing he could do far more successfully than Alonso is go into other series and find success. He'd be doing it at a younger age and with time still on his side. He could also do it without looking back, unlike Alonso, who you get the feeling is still holding out hope for an F1 seat. Vettel has those 4 WDCs and is third on the all-time wins list. His resume is already a masterpiece. LeMans, Indy, even something more out there like Super GT or V* Supercars would all be on the table. He might find that he would enjoy himself a lot more without the F1 circus to deal with.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by mcdo »

sandman1347 wrote:
kleefton wrote:Not a vettel fan but I have the utmost respect for him as a driver. I thought that he would come out this year guns blazing and ready to shut all of the naysayers up. But then he went on to resort to his old tricks against Hamilton in Bahrain. That is when I really started to worry about him. From then on he has made two huge mistakes and my faith in him getting it back together is almost completely gone. Now I’m sure he will never be the same driver. I am not sure what caused this decline. Maybe it’s a combination of a worse car, a strong teammate and the brilliance of Hamilton and Verstappen. But it is sad to see such a great champion fall off so quickly. Is he done? I’m not so sure. I think he still loves racing but I also don’t see him at Sauber for example, being Kimi’s teammate again. If he doesn’t get the right drive he will be out. The big question for me is: will Ferrari give him another contract?
I respect Vettel as well and it is shocking to see his current form. One thing I would legitimately say is that Vettel; unlike Hamilton, Senna, Schumacher or Alonso; does not seem to have significantly improved or grown as a driver since his younger days. There are noticeable differences between Hamilton's driving today by comparison to 10 years ago (particularly in the areas of risk mitigation and decision making). I don't know that I would say that for Vettel. He doesn't seem to be able to self-analyze and then self-improve.

One thing he could do far more successfully than Alonso is go into other series and find success. He'd be doing it at a younger age and with time still on his side. He could also do it without looking back, unlike Alonso, who you get the feeling is still holding out hope for an F1 seat. Vettel has those 4 WDCs and is third on the all-time wins list. His resume is already a masterpiece. LeMans, Indy, even something more out there like Super GT or V* Supercars would all be on the table. He might find that he would enjoy himself a lot more without the F1 circus to deal with.
I'd love to see someone like Vettel give Indy a try. Let's see if any top F1 driver in a good Indy car can fight for the win at the first time of trying
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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by KingVoid »

Vettel should join iRacing or something like that. Seriously, so many mistakes of his are down to bad decisions in heated moments. It’s like his racecraft lacks practice and refinement.

He should if he wants to keep up with this video game generation (Leclerc, Norris, Verstappen). These drivers are far more aggressive and unpredictable than the Rosbergs and Buttons of the past.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by sandman1347 »

KingVoid wrote:Vettel should join iRacing or something like that. Seriously, so many mistakes of his are down to bad decisions in heated moments. It’s like his racecraft lacks practice and refinement.

He should if he wants to keep up with this video game generation (Leclerc, Norris, Verstappen). These drivers are far more aggressive and unpredictable than the Rosbergs and Buttons of the past.
How old are you? Rosberg and Button were in F1 just a couple of years ago and I can promise you that Vettel is young enough to have played his share of video games (as are Rosberg and Button for that matter). If you think Lando Norris and Max Verstappen represent some kind of radical change to driving based on the fact that they play iRacing I couldn't possibly disagree with you more.

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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by Mort Canard »

KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:Any notion that he belongs in the historical debates with the likes of Hamilton and Schumacher must be muted now though.
From a historical point of view, he goes in the same drawer as Piquet and Brabham.
Ok, I'll bite. Why don't you think he is in the same class as Alain Prost, or Senna, Lauda, or Stewart for that matter???
Mission WinLater

KingVoid
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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by KingVoid »

I watched my first race in 2002.

The likes of Button and Raikkonen were very fair racers. Rosberg was very clean for most of his career and only became a bit dirty in the end.

The general impression I get is that the likes of Leclerc and Verstappen have a very aggressive style of driving that the older generation did not have. Vettel seems to have a very difficult time coping with Verstappen in particular.

KingVoid
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Re: Is Vettel finished?

Post by KingVoid »

Mort Canard wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:Any notion that he belongs in the historical debates with the likes of Hamilton and Schumacher must be muted now though.
From a historical point of view, he goes in the same drawer as Piquet and Brabham.
Ok, I'll bite. Why don't you think he is in the same class as Alain Prost, or Senna, Lauda, or Stewart for that matter???
Stewart, Senna and Prost were the best drivers of their generation for an extended period of time (around 5 years).

Piquet and Brabham were excellent drivers with a great career paths, but never really the class of the field in terms of ability.

I feel like the latter describes Vettel better.

(As for Lauda, he is somewhere between the two groups)

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