Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeClerc?

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Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake?

Yes, it was against the rules and I agree
36
36%
Yes, he should get a penalty according to the rules, but I don't agree
12
12%
No, he shouldn't get a penalty, acceptable overtake
51
52%
No, he shouldn't get a penalty, but LeClerc should get one for hitting Max
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 99

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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by F1 Racer »

Exediron wrote:
mcdo wrote:On the one hand, I personally don't believe wheel banging is the same as crowding. On the other hand, crowding is going on at corner exit in a lot of races and the stewards don't seem to ever apply the rule in that situation
I'm personally impressed by the mental gymnastics required to believe that Max didn't crowd Leclerc off track. While I'll fully agree this has become accepted as a racing move in recent years -- wrongly, in my opinion -- I think it's as clear a case of crowding another driver off track as you're ever going to find.
Yes, particularly with lap 68 being the perfect example of what Max should have been doing.

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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by F1 Racer »

mcdo wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mcdo wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
Greenman wrote:.

So, my understanding of the rules is that IF a car is alongside going into a corner then both cars should allow the other room to continue around the corner whilst staying on the track. Verstappen rather obviously did not comply with this.

Can anyone quote the actual wording ?

Thanks.

.
Chapter four of appendix L of the FIA sporting code. It states: "Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited."
On the one hand, I personally don't believe wheel banging is the same as crowding. On the other hand, crowding is going on at corner exit in a lot of races and the stewards don't seem to ever apply the rule in that situation
Yes, the stewards continually misunderstand and misapply the rules in this area. They have allowed crowding off the track to go unpunished many times in the past, but it was never acceptable then and it's still not acceptable now.
The sport disagrees with you
Except they didn't in Canada when they punished Vettel, or Japan 2018 when they punished Max.

According to the stewards at least, it only seems unacceptable to crowd another driver off the circuit when this is also part of a recent rejoin of the circuit from an off-track excursion. If either of the drivers have not left the circuit recently, then they are indeed free to squeeze and crowd each other off the track as they please. Only the rules don't really say this, they say that it is never acceptable, and most rational, objective people agree with it never being acceptable due to it negatively affecting the quality of the racing.

Not only that but it is literally unfair to the driver on the outside that has allowed the inside driver the apex, (without chopping across and 'claiming the apex himself' and crowding the inside driver up the inside kerbing like Max vs Ocon in Brazil 2018), and so he expects to be allowed the corner exit kerbing in return without being crowded off beyond the outside kerbing by the greedy inside driver that wants both the apex and the optimal corner exit trajectory.

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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by Greenman »

babararacucudada wrote:
Chapter four of appendix L of the FIA sporting code. It states: "Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited."
.

Thanks for that.


Well that exactly matches Verstappen's behaviour - so the penalty SHOULD have been given against him.

.

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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by ReservoirDog »

Greenman wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
Chapter four of appendix L of the FIA sporting code. It states: "Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited."
.

Well that exactly matches Verstappen's behaviour - so the penalty SHOULD have been given against him.

.
How so?

"deliberate crowding"? It was neither deliberate, nor crowding. You can even see his steering input. His steering was in complete lock. If he was deliberately crowding him, he would've moved left. Never happened.

"abnormal change of direction"? That didn't happen either. He turned full right in a very predictable manner.

Maybe you need to reconsider what "exactly means" means.

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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by F1 Racer »

ReservoirDog wrote:
Greenman wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
Chapter four of appendix L of the FIA sporting code. It states: "Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited."
.

Well that exactly matches Verstappen's behaviour - so the penalty SHOULD have been given against him.

.
How so?

"deliberate crowding"? It was neither deliberate, nor crowding. You can even see his steering input. His steering was in complete lock. If he was deliberately crowding him, he would've moved left. Never happened.

"abnormal change of direction"? That didn't happen either. He turned full right in a very predictable manner.

Maybe you need to reconsider what "exactly means" means.
His steering lock is not the only thing that affects his corner exit trajectory, he was also accelerating too harshly instead of being more gingerly with the throttle pedal until both cars had exited the corner with enough space, and then he can floor it. On lap 68 he did not just shove his foot fully to the floor and accelerate at full beans out of the corner, he gave up some exit speed so as to give Leclerc space, just as Leclerc gave up some entry speed to Max in the initial phase of the corner by taking the longer outside tragectory round the corner and surrendering the apex to Max, (in both lap 68 and lap 69 Leclerc did this).

On lap 68 Max played fair, on lap 69 Max did not play fair as he wanted the quicker apex route through the corner and also wanted the outside path for the corner exit so that he could get on the gas earlier and exit the corner as fast as possible to prevent Leclerc having an opportunity to race him down the next straight into turn four. Either Leclerc would be forced to brake and drop behind Max to avoid contact at corner exit, or Leclerc could stay on the outside and accept the contact at corner exit knowing that it would push him off the track and he would come off worse that way instead. In terms of racing etiquette Leclerc was fair on both laps, Max was only fair on one of the laps.

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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by Exediron »

F1 Racer wrote:Yes, particularly with lap 68 being the perfect example of what Max should have been doing.
Exactly!

This is what gets me about the argument, or when people claim that 'Leclerc would never have been able to hang it around the outside anyway'. It's not some sort of hypothetical; literally that exact scenario happened the lap before, and when Max left the room he ought to have he got re-passed. Which - surprise, surprise! - is why he didn't do it the lap after.

He decided he couldn't overtake cleanly, so he just overtook in a dirty way he knew would go unpunished. Max Verstappen's racecraft in a nutshell.
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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by babararacucudada »

Exediron wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:Yes, particularly with lap 68 being the perfect example of what Max should have been doing.
Exactly!

This is what gets me about the argument, or when people claim that 'Leclerc would never have been able to hang it around the outside anyway'. It's not some sort of hypothetical; literally that exact scenario happened the lap before, and when Max left the room he ought to have he got re-passed. Which - surprise, surprise! - is why he didn't do it the lap after.

He decided he couldn't overtake cleanly, so he just overtook in a dirty way he knew would go unpunished. Max Verstappen's racecraft in a nutshell.
When the other driver is alongside you going into the corner, if he is entitled to remain on the track then it requires you to choose a path that will leave him room to remain on the track. Leclerc cannot crowd himself off the track.

I haven't voted in the poll, as the rule seems clear, but it has a history of the rule not being applied. To be fair to the drivers, if the rule is going to actually be applied, then they need to clarify how it will be applied if they are going to move more toward the literal meaning of the rule.

It doesn't say the rule only applies on straights, so the rule is intended to apply everywhere. The main issue should be the amount of overlap which influences the application of the rule and the speed and locations at which the overlap applies. It is a difficult rule to clarify, but if they do allow both cars to remain on the track, then more skill will have to be used when overtaking, but there will also be more opportunities to overtake. The pace will tend to decrease during such battles.

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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by WHoff78 »

babararacucudada wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:Yes, particularly with lap 68 being the perfect example of what Max should have been doing.
Exactly!

This is what gets me about the argument, or when people claim that 'Leclerc would never have been able to hang it around the outside anyway'. It's not some sort of hypothetical; literally that exact scenario happened the lap before, and when Max left the room he ought to have he got re-passed. Which - surprise, surprise! - is why he didn't do it the lap after.

He decided he couldn't overtake cleanly, so he just overtook in a dirty way he knew would go unpunished. Max Verstappen's racecraft in a nutshell.
When the other driver is alongside you going into the corner, if he is entitled to remain on the track then it requires you to choose a path that will leave him room to remain on the track. Leclerc cannot crowd himself off the track.

I haven't voted in the poll, as the rule seems clear, but it has a history of the rule not being applied. To be fair to the drivers, if the rule is going to actually be applied, then they need to clarify how it will be applied if they are going to move more toward the literal meaning of the rule.

It doesn't say the rule only applies on straights, so the rule is intended to apply everywhere. The main issue should be the amount of overlap which influences the application of the rule and the speed and locations at which the overlap applies. It is a difficult rule to clarify, but if they do allow both cars to remain on the track, then more skill will have to be used when overtaking, but there will also be more opportunities to overtake. The pace will tend to decrease during such battles.
Don’t agree with this. I personally think if you penalize this sort of incident, then the overtaking driver will generally attack the outside line whenever they have a sniff, which will become the faster line round the corner, as the defending driver will in most scenarios have to take an unnatural line through the corner, dropping his speed as he is no longer entitled to the whole track on exit and the racing line. We would see countless penalties, because often it will be too late for the defending driver to reduce speed sufficiently to even leave room. If they are able brake to give room at the exit then the attacking driver will sail past around the outside on the faster line.

That’s my take anyway - it may help make overtaking a lot easier with the current ruleset, but I am not sure many arguing for this to be penalized fully appreciate the consequences.

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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by jono794 »

DOLOMITE wrote:No. Because that whole move is just motor racing - from karts to F1 it's no different.

If you leave a gap on the inside big enough another to car to fit into - you run a risk. They will take it and you WILL be run wide on the exit if you stay there. It's that simple. Accept that and either back out or face the consequence. If you don't want that to happen, defend the inside and take the risk of them going round the outside where you can return the favour and push them out when THEY are on the outside by the time you get to the exit.

That is how it is and always has been.

Unless the driver on the inside literally adjusts his line to nerf you out (and I dpn't see that Verstappen did), or goes straight on much deeper than needed (Rosberg!!) then it's just hard but far racing.

Leclerc left the gap and Verstappen, being a racing driver, took it.
Out of everyone missing the nuance in racing etiquette I'm surprised you are too. Verstappen had no right to the usual line because there was no overlap. It's pretty simple, the pass isn't done until there's overlap.

It's also telling that you would bring up Senna's justification of his appalling sportsmanship in reference to this move.
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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by SnakeSVT2003 »

I still remember when people complained about Michael Schumacher when Juan Montoya tried to pass him around the outside of Tosa in Imola in 2004.

They called Schumacher a dirty driver for that and now here is Max doing a worse version of it and now it's okay to do such a thing and it's good racing! :lol:
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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by Exediron »

SnakeSVT2003 wrote:I still remember when people complained about Michael Schumacher when Juan Montoya tried to pass him around the outside of Tosa in Imola in 2004.

They called Schumacher a dirty driver for that and now here is Max doing a worse version of it and now it's okay to do such a thing and it's good racing! :lol:
Probably the same people have the same opinion on both. They're both dirty racing to my way of seeing it.
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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by MistaVega23 »

This is Palmer's take on it:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48849024

"The thing is, though, Leclerc might well not have had room on the outside regardless of Verstappen opening his steering, because both of them had entered the corner a bit faster and later than on the previous lap.

The gap on the outside of Verstappen was possibly going to close anyway, simply because of Verstappen's momentum and the fact he braked and entered the corner later on this lap. In that case, should Leclerc simply have yielded and cut back to the inside of Verstappen on the exit? It was a horrible task for the stewards to call one way or another. So it's no wonder they took their time on it.

Ultimately, I can't disagree with the decision not to penalise Verstappen because it was just such a tight call."
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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by P-F1 Mod »

F1 Racer wrote:
P-F1 Mod wrote:
F1 Racer wrote: Remember Vettel does not get the penalty in Canada for unsafely rejoining the circuit as his rejoin is completely out of his hands due to the car being out of control and skidding across the grass. He got the penalty for having control of his car again once he was in the middle of the circuit but he continued to move further right to squeeze Hamilton off the track after he had regained control, (the stewards had the telemetry and used it in their decision making so it was nothing to do with the unsafe rejoin, it was the squeezing post-track rejoin). If Vettel had stayed left, he wouldn't have got the 5 second penalty but this would have allowed Hamilton to get a run on him and possibly pass him. Max could have stayed further right in Austria but that would have allowed Leclerc to get a run on him and repass him like Leclerc actually did the lap before, so he squeezed Leclerc off instead to deny him a chance of passing him.
The stewards in Canada wrote:The stewards reviewed video evidence and determined that Car 5, left the track at turn 3, rejoined the track at turn 4 in an unsafe manner and forced car 44 off track. Car 44 had to take evasive action to avoid a collision.
The emphasis is mine but this statement from the penalty report clearly states that re-entering the track IS a factor in the penalty being applied. Regaining control isn't even in the report. Please don't twist the truth to make irrelevant points.

[Source: https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... oYkZs.html]
Firstly Vettel couldn't do a thing about how he rejoined as he was out of control and I have seen an article about stewards looking at his steering inputs as he got back on track that is the key to this Canada issue:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/reas ... a/4461461/

You even concede that Hamilton was forced to take evasive action in the comments you posted, well wasn't Leclerc forced to take evasive action from Max's squeezing in the same way? These two incidents are very close at their core.
One involves the aggressor coming from off the track. The other does not. That seems to be the key difference.

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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by Siao7 »

mcdo wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mcdo wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
Greenman wrote:.

So, my understanding of the rules is that IF a car is alongside going into a corner then both cars should allow the other room to continue around the corner whilst staying on the track. Verstappen rather obviously did not comply with this.

Can anyone quote the actual wording ?

Thanks.

.
Chapter four of appendix L of the FIA sporting code. It states: "Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited."
On the one hand, I personally don't believe wheel banging is the same as crowding. On the other hand, crowding is going on at corner exit in a lot of races and the stewards don't seem to ever apply the rule in that situation
Yes, the stewards continually misunderstand and misapply the rules in this area. They have allowed crowding off the track to go unpunished many times in the past, but it was never acceptable then and it's still not acceptable now.
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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by babararacucudada »

WHoff78 wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:Yes, particularly with lap 68 being the perfect example of what Max should have been doing.
Exactly!

This is what gets me about the argument, or when people claim that 'Leclerc would never have been able to hang it around the outside anyway'. It's not some sort of hypothetical; literally that exact scenario happened the lap before, and when Max left the room he ought to have he got re-passed. Which - surprise, surprise! - is why he didn't do it the lap after.

He decided he couldn't overtake cleanly, so he just overtook in a dirty way he knew would go unpunished. Max Verstappen's racecraft in a nutshell.
When the other driver is alongside you going into the corner, if he is entitled to remain on the track then it requires you to choose a path that will leave him room to remain on the track. Leclerc cannot crowd himself off the track.

I haven't voted in the poll, as the rule seems clear, but it has a history of the rule not being applied. To be fair to the drivers, if the rule is going to actually be applied, then they need to clarify how it will be applied if they are going to move more toward the literal meaning of the rule.

It doesn't say the rule only applies on straights, so the rule is intended to apply everywhere. The main issue should be the amount of overlap which influences the application of the rule and the speed and locations at which the overlap applies. It is a difficult rule to clarify, but if they do allow both cars to remain on the track, then more skill will have to be used when overtaking, but there will also be more opportunities to overtake. The pace will tend to decrease during such battles.
Don’t agree with this. I personally think if you penalize this sort of incident, then the overtaking driver will generally attack the outside line whenever they have a sniff, which will become the faster line round the corner, as the defending driver will in most scenarios have to take an unnatural line through the corner, dropping his speed as he is no longer entitled to the whole track on exit and the racing line. We would see countless penalties, because often it will be too late for the defending driver to reduce speed sufficiently to even leave room. If they are able brake to give room at the exit then the attacking driver will sail past around the outside on the faster line.

That’s my take anyway - it may help make overtaking a lot easier with the current ruleset, but I am not sure many arguing for this to be penalized fully appreciate the consequences.
It will probably depend on how they clarify how the rule is going to be interpreted.
Both drivers will have to alter their path around the corner, and the front driver will have first choice on that so if there is a faster line that leaves a line that the other driver can use to stay on the track, then the lead driver gets first choice of it.

We would have to wait and see how it works out. There would be a good chance that we would see more wheel to wheel battles and that they would last longer. It could also increase the number of locations on a circuit where an overtake could be attempted. It is also likely to increase the skill level required to make and especially to defend an overtake.

Combinations of corners would become more important as overtaking opportunities.

It might also mean that chicanes could be redesigned to make them better race track corners.

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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by Fiki »

SnakeSVT2003 wrote:I still remember when people complained about Michael Schumacher when Juan Montoya tried to pass him around the outside of Tosa in Imola in 2004.

They called Schumacher a dirty driver for that and now here is Max doing a worse version of it and now it's okay to do such a thing and it's good racing! :lol:
That is a very good example indeed!

I remember another, at the Brazilian Grand Prix of 2009, in which there wasn't just an incident but a potentially very serious accident, wiping out three cars.
It seems there was no investigation of the accident, and therefore no mention of the rules involved. The only outcomes were a fine for Trulli for discussing the accident with the driver who had pushed him off, Sutil. Edit: watch from 0:47. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggaai93FU7w

Isn't it interesting, in view of the recent Vettel/Hamilton incident, that two cars "re-joined" the track unsafely during the Brazil accident, and both struck another car. Yet no penalties for re-joining unsafely, nor for crowding a car off. The whole thing was dismissed as a racing incident... Except the discussion immediately afterwards, obviously. Because that was a breach of the Sporting Rules, worth $10,000!

I can't help but feel that the FIA are quite happy for the rules to be as they are, and to let the stewards interpret them time and time again as they see fit, without ever organising an major evaluation of them and a possible re-write.
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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by Ruste13 »

SnakeSVT2003 wrote:I still remember when people complained about Michael Schumacher when Juan Montoya tried to pass him around the outside of Tosa in Imola in 2004.

They called Schumacher a dirty driver for that and now here is Max doing a worse version of it and now it's okay to do such a thing and it's good racing! :lol:

Your signature sums it up perfectly.

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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by Ruste13 »

I predicted this thread would be 11 pages by Tuesday.....dissapointing.
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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by mcdo »

Exediron wrote:
mcdo wrote:On the one hand, I personally don't believe wheel banging is the same as crowding. On the other hand, crowding is going on at corner exit in a lot of races and the stewards don't seem to ever apply the rule in that situation
I'm personally impressed by the mental gymnastics required to believe that Max didn't crowd Leclerc off track. While I'll fully agree this has become accepted as a racing move in recent years -- wrongly, in my opinion -- I think it's as clear a case of crowding another driver off track as you're ever going to find.
No I don't think they're the same thing at all

IMO wheel banging is just that - a banging of wheels. The edge of the circuit doesn't play a role. But where there's runoff then invariably the losing party can end up out there. It's aggressive and totally ok when done correctly in my book

Crowding is using your car to purposefully block another car from continuing on the track. You're using the edge of the circuit as part of your move. Quite often we see no contact between cars but invariably it can happen. The driver losing out typically takes to the grass/runoff to take avoiding action before losing any bodywork. When this is done on corner exit the rulemakers have proven to be totally fine with it

IMO Max did the former, not the latter. Either way, whether my interpretation of the incident is right or wrong, both are acceptable in modern Grand Prix racing
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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by Option or Prime »

Would it be acceptable if the edge of the track was defined by a wall?

The fact that there is a run off shouldn't actually affect the decision in my view.

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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by Fiki »

jono794 wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:No. Because that whole move is just motor racing - from karts to F1 it's no different.

If you leave a gap on the inside big enough another to car to fit into - you run a risk. They will take it and you WILL be run wide on the exit if you stay there. It's that simple. Accept that and either back out or face the consequence. If you don't want that to happen, defend the inside and take the risk of them going round the outside where you can return the favour and push them out when THEY are on the outside by the time you get to the exit.

That is how it is and always has been.

Unless the driver on the inside literally adjusts his line to nerf you out (and I dpn't see that Verstappen did), or goes straight on much deeper than needed (Rosberg!!) then it's just hard but far racing.

Leclerc left the gap and Verstappen, being a racing driver, took it.
Out of everyone missing the nuance in racing etiquette I'm surprised you are too. Verstappen had no right to the usual line because there was no overlap. It's pretty simple, the pass isn't done until there's overlap.

It's also telling that you would bring up Senna's justification of his appalling sportsmanship in reference to this move.
Jono, do you have a source that explains your comment about the overlap? I believe I understand what you mean, but would like to be sure.
Like you, I was a bit surprised by Dolomite's view on the incident. "You will be run wide" sounds to me like a deliberate act. And that is forbidden.
MistaVega23 wrote:This is Palmer's take on it:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48849024

"The thing is, though, Leclerc might well not have had room on the outside regardless of Verstappen opening his steering, because both of them had entered the corner a bit faster and later than on the previous lap.

The gap on the outside of Verstappen was possibly going to close anyway, simply because of Verstappen's momentum and the fact he braked and entered the corner later on this lap. In that case, should Leclerc simply have yielded and cut back to the inside of Verstappen on the exit? It was a horrible task for the stewards to call one way or another. So it's no wonder they took their time on it.

Ultimately, I can't disagree with the decision not to penalise Verstappen because it was just such a tight call."
I don't understand Jolyon's rationale. Verstappen braked later and deeper, he says. I think that is correct, if you see where Verstappen ended up: on the kerbs and only barely still in contact with the track (right wheels on the white line). Surely that makes the decision simply a case of either deliberately crowding Leclerc off, or not having his car under control and causing an accident? The fact he had shown on the previous lap that he could fight cleanly lends weight to the argument.
If Vettel looking in his mirror was proof of intent in Canada, would the same perhaps be true of Verstappen looking left? I think he did do that.
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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by mcdo »

Option or Prime wrote:Would it be acceptable if the edge of the track was defined by a wall?

The fact that there is a run off shouldn't actually affect the decision in my view.
There was no wall in this instance so it's not relevant
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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by mcdo »

F1 Racer wrote:
mcdo wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mcdo wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:Chapter four of appendix L of the FIA sporting code. It states: "Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited."
On the one hand, I personally don't believe wheel banging is the same as crowding. On the other hand, crowding is going on at corner exit in a lot of races and the stewards don't seem to ever apply the rule in that situation
Yes, the stewards continually misunderstand and misapply the rules in this area. They have allowed crowding off the track to go unpunished many times in the past, but it was never acceptable then and it's still not acceptable now.
The sport disagrees with you
Except they didn't in Canada when they punished Vettel, or Japan 2018 when they punished Max.

According to the stewards at least, it only seems unacceptable to crowd another driver off the circuit when this is also part of a recent rejoin of the circuit from an off-track excursion. If either of the drivers have not left the circuit recently, then they are indeed free to squeeze and crowd each other off the track as they please. Only the rules don't really say this, they say that it is never acceptable, and most rational, objective people agree with it never being acceptable due to it negatively affecting the quality of the racing.

Not only that but it is literally unfair to the driver on the outside that has allowed the inside driver the apex, (without chopping across and 'claiming the apex himself' and crowding the inside driver up the inside kerbing like Max vs Ocon in Brazil 2018), and so he expects to be allowed the corner exit kerbing in return without being crowded off beyond the outside kerbing by the greedy inside driver that wants both the apex and the optimal corner exit trajectory.
They're not the same thing at all. Please stop referring to incidents that aren't comparable. Vettel-Hamilton has nothing to do with Verstappen-Leclerc
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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by minchy »

My take on the whole thing is simply that what Max did (and it was Max taking a wide line that caused the contact) is acceptable within the rules as they stand, but that these rules are ambiguous and should be changed to make this against the rules. There are very distict rules regarding leaving space when defending, on the entry to a corner and movement under braking, yet there are only gentleman's and unwritten rules regarding exit of a corner.

Why is it so hard to say that if any part of another car is alongside, then at minimum of 1 cars width must be left to the white line defining the edge of the track? That way there is no ambiguity and the driver, stewards and fans all know what is going on.

As pointed out before, IF (big hypothetical if) this was Monaco, this would be unacceptable and even seen as an attempt to force a safety car in certain situations! So to me, unacceptable, but currently within the rules, which is just mind bogglingly dumb!
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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by mcdo »

Exediron wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:Yes, particularly with lap 68 being the perfect example of what Max should have been doing.
Exactly!

This is what gets me about the argument, or when people claim that 'Leclerc would never have been able to hang it around the outside anyway'. It's not some sort of hypothetical; literally that exact scenario happened the lap before, and when Max left the room he ought to have he got re-passed. Which - surprise, surprise! - is why he didn't do it the lap after.

He decided he couldn't overtake cleanly, so he just overtook in a dirty way he knew would go unpunished.
So... totally perfect according to the rules
Exediron wrote:Max Verstappen's racecraft in a nutshell.
It wins him races. And right now he's ahead of both Ferrari drivers on the points table. That's astounding to be honest. Leclerc better get tougher or he'll be the next Felipe Massa
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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by mcdo »

Siao7 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mcdo wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:Chapter four of appendix L of the FIA sporting code. It states: "Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited."
On the one hand, I personally don't believe wheel banging is the same as crowding. On the other hand, crowding is going on at corner exit in a lot of races and the stewards don't seem to ever apply the rule in that situation
Yes, the stewards continually misunderstand and misapply the rules in this area. They have allowed crowding off the track to go unpunished many times in the past, but it was never acceptable then and it's still not acceptable now.
The sport disagrees with you
Are you talking on behalf of the sport?
:uhoh:
Don't be a knob. The sport, by virtue of its own decisions, does not agree with the statements being made that poster
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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by Fiki »

minchy wrote:My take on the whole thing is simply that what Max did (and it was Max taking a wide line that caused the contact) is acceptable within the rules as they stand, but that these rules are ambiguous and should be changed to make this against the rules. There are very distict rules regarding leaving space when defending, on the entry to a corner and movement under braking, yet there are only gentleman's and unwritten rules regarding exit of a corner.

Why is it so hard to say that if any part of another car is alongside, then at minimum of 1 cars width must be left to the white line defining the edge of the track? That way there is no ambiguity and the driver, stewards and fans all know what is going on.

As pointed out before, IF (big hypothetical if) this was Monaco, this would be unacceptable and even seen as an attempt to force a safety car in certain situations! So to me, unacceptable, but currently within the rules, which is just mind bogglingly dumb!
Minchy, may I ask you to explain this more in depth, please? I don't see the ambiguity in the rule as written, though I'm willing to learn. If you can, please quote the rule you speak of. Perhaps we are looking at different lines in the two documents in question?
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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by mcdo »

minchy wrote:Why is it so hard to say that if any part of another car is alongside, then at minimum of 1 cars width must be left to the white line defining the edge of the track? That way there is no ambiguity and the driver, stewards and fans all know what is going on.
This was discussed before when Hamilton and Rosberg clashed in Barcelona. I always felt putting that wording in the rules would invite lunges. The attacking driver could throw a ridiculous one down the inside and once they got any bit of front wing in between the defending car and track edge they were entitled to free road ahead of them. If the lunge resulted in a clash, the innocent defending driver should get the penalty by the letter of the law for closing a door they weren't aware was even open
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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by Fiki »

mcdo wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:Yes, particularly with lap 68 being the perfect example of what Max should have been doing.
Exactly!

This is what gets me about the argument, or when people claim that 'Leclerc would never have been able to hang it around the outside anyway'. It's not some sort of hypothetical; literally that exact scenario happened the lap before, and when Max left the room he ought to have he got re-passed. Which - surprise, surprise! - is why he didn't do it the lap after.

He decided he couldn't overtake cleanly, so he just overtook in a dirty way he knew would go unpunished.
So... totally perfect according to the rules
Exediron wrote:Max Verstappen's racecraft in a nutshell.
It wins him races. And right now he's ahead of both Ferrari drivers on the points table. That's astounding to be honest. Leclerc better get tougher or he'll be the next Felipe Massa
Remember when somebody (at Williams perhaps?) once suggested that Montoya should sacrifice a race and wipe out Schumacher's car in an accident? Just to make it clear to him that his racing was unacceptable. The FIA turned a bllind eye, and Montoya didn't take up the suggestion. But is this really what race fans now want to happen?
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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by minchy »

Fiki wrote:
minchy wrote:My take on the whole thing is simply that what Max did (and it was Max taking a wide line that caused the contact) is acceptable within the rules as they stand, but that these rules are ambiguous and should be changed to make this against the rules. There are very distict rules regarding leaving space when defending, on the entry to a corner and movement under braking, yet there are only gentleman's and unwritten rules regarding exit of a corner.

Why is it so hard to say that if any part of another car is alongside, then at minimum of 1 cars width must be left to the white line defining the edge of the track? That way there is no ambiguity and the driver, stewards and fans all know what is going on.

As pointed out before, IF (big hypothetical if) this was Monaco, this would be unacceptable and even seen as an attempt to force a safety car in certain situations! So to me, unacceptable, but currently within the rules, which is just mind bogglingly dumb!
Minchy, may I ask you to explain this more in depth, please? I don't see the ambiguity in the rule as written, though I'm willing to learn. If you can, please quote the rule you speak of. Perhaps we are looking at different lines in the two documents in question?
That's my point, there are no rules in place!
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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by Siao7 »

mcdo wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mcdo wrote: On the one hand, I personally don't believe wheel banging is the same as crowding. On the other hand, crowding is going on at corner exit in a lot of races and the stewards don't seem to ever apply the rule in that situation
Yes, the stewards continually misunderstand and misapply the rules in this area. They have allowed crowding off the track to go unpunished many times in the past, but it was never acceptable then and it's still not acceptable now.
The sport disagrees with you
Are you talking on behalf of the sport?
:uhoh:
Don't be a knob. The sport, by virtue of its own decisions, does not agree with the statements being made that poster
Ok, is this how we are talking in here now?

The sport has proven very inconsistent with their decisions during the years, it doesn't disagree with F1 Racer, it also disagrees with itself at times. So your blanket statement is wrong to say the least, the stewards inconsistency being a topic brought up very often to be ignored.

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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by F1 Racer »

mcdo wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Except they didn't in Canada when they punished Vettel, or Japan 2018 when they punished Max.

According to the stewards at least, it only seems unacceptable to crowd another driver off the circuit when this is also part of a recent rejoin of the circuit from an off-track excursion. If either of the drivers have not left the circuit recently, then they are indeed free to squeeze and crowd each other off the track as they please. Only the rules don't really say this, they say that it is never acceptable, and most rational, objective people agree with it never being acceptable due to it negatively affecting the quality of the racing.

Not only that but it is literally unfair to the driver on the outside that has allowed the inside driver the apex, (without chopping across and 'claiming the apex himself' and crowding the inside driver up the inside kerbing like Max vs Ocon in Brazil 2018), and so he expects to be allowed the corner exit kerbing in return without being crowded off beyond the outside kerbing by the greedy inside driver that wants both the apex and the optimal corner exit trajectory.
They're not the same thing at all. Please stop referring to incidents that aren't comparable. Vettel-Hamilton has nothing to do with Verstappen-Leclerc
You don't explain why they aren't different though. The stewards were not happy that Vettel forced or attempted to force Hamilton off the circuit following his unsafe rejoin, as did Max against Kimi in Japan 2018. So in that sense, these incidents are all similar, forcing an innocent driver off the track is the issue in all of these cases, including Austria 2019.

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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by F1 Racer »

Leclerc complained on the radio after he was shoved off the circuit, why would he do this if he knew he had been passed fairly and squarely? Did Vettel and Bottas complain on the radio when Max managed to pass them without contact? I don't believe they did complain as even though like CL, they wouldn't be happy about losing a place, they knew they had lost the place fairly so would have no grounds to complain about Max.

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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by mcdo »

Siao7 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:Yes, the stewards continually misunderstand and misapply the rules in this area. They have allowed crowding off the track to go unpunished many times in the past, but it was never acceptable then and it's still not acceptable now.
The sport disagrees with you
Are you talking on behalf of the sport?
:uhoh:
Don't be a knob. The sport, by virtue of its own decisions, does not agree with the statements being made that poster
Ok, is this how we are talking in here now?

The sport has proven very inconsistent with their decisions during the years, it doesn't disagree with F1 Racer, it also disagrees with itself at times. So your blanket statement is wrong to say the least, the stewards inconsistency being a topic brought up very often to be ignored.
Point me to one incident the same as this one where the attacking driver got a penalty. Masi has said incidents from over 3 years ago are not relevant. So give me one incident in the last 3 years with wheel-on-wheel contact, where the defending driver ended up beyond the track limits on corner exit and the attacking driver got a penalty

If you can't then F1 Racer's statement is wrong. And additionally if you can't then the stewards have been consistent in not applying a penalty on this occasion
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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by mcdo »

F1 Racer wrote:
mcdo wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Except they didn't in Canada when they punished Vettel, or Japan 2018 when they punished Max.

According to the stewards at least, it only seems unacceptable to crowd another driver off the circuit when this is also part of a recent rejoin of the circuit from an off-track excursion. If either of the drivers have not left the circuit recently, then they are indeed free to squeeze and crowd each other off the track as they please. Only the rules don't really say this, they say that it is never acceptable, and most rational, objective people agree with it never being acceptable due to it negatively affecting the quality of the racing.

Not only that but it is literally unfair to the driver on the outside that has allowed the inside driver the apex, (without chopping across and 'claiming the apex himself' and crowding the inside driver up the inside kerbing like Max vs Ocon in Brazil 2018), and so he expects to be allowed the corner exit kerbing in return without being crowded off beyond the outside kerbing by the greedy inside driver that wants both the apex and the optimal corner exit trajectory.
They're not the same thing at all. Please stop referring to incidents that aren't comparable. Vettel-Hamilton has nothing to do with Verstappen-Leclerc
You don't explain why they aren't different though. The stewards were not happy that Vettel forced or attempted to force Hamilton off the circuit following his unsafe rejoin, as did Max against Kimi in Japan 2018. So in that sense, these incidents are all similar, forcing an innocent driver off the track is the issue in all of these cases, including Austria 2019.
They're not comparable at all! Vettel and Hamilton didn't even touch each other! There's no "in that sense", they're not comparable in any universe

In Canada the lead driver made an unforced error, rejoined the track in an unsafe manner and caused the attacking driver to take avoiding action. A penalty was handed out to him. What has it got in common with this? It was a battle for 1st and a Ferrari was involved - that's about it
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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by F1 Racer »

P-F1 Mod wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
P-F1 Mod wrote:
F1 Racer wrote: Remember Vettel does not get the penalty in Canada for unsafely rejoining the circuit as his rejoin is completely out of his hands due to the car being out of control and skidding across the grass. He got the penalty for having control of his car again once he was in the middle of the circuit but he continued to move further right to squeeze Hamilton off the track after he had regained control, (the stewards had the telemetry and used it in their decision making so it was nothing to do with the unsafe rejoin, it was the squeezing post-track rejoin). If Vettel had stayed left, he wouldn't have got the 5 second penalty but this would have allowed Hamilton to get a run on him and possibly pass him. Max could have stayed further right in Austria but that would have allowed Leclerc to get a run on him and repass him like Leclerc actually did the lap before, so he squeezed Leclerc off instead to deny him a chance of passing him.
The stewards in Canada wrote:The stewards reviewed video evidence and determined that Car 5, left the track at turn 3, rejoined the track at turn 4 in an unsafe manner and forced car 44 off track. Car 44 had to take evasive action to avoid a collision.
The emphasis is mine but this statement from the penalty report clearly states that re-entering the track IS a factor in the penalty being applied. Regaining control isn't even in the report. Please don't twist the truth to make irrelevant points.

[Source: https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... oYkZs.html]
Firstly Vettel couldn't do a thing about how he rejoined as he was out of control and I have seen an article about stewards looking at his steering inputs as he got back on track that is the key to this Canada issue:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/reas ... a/4461461/

You even concede that Hamilton was forced to take evasive action in the comments you posted, well wasn't Leclerc forced to take evasive action from Max's squeezing in the same way? These two incidents are very close at their core.
One involves the aggressor coming from off the track. The other does not. That seems to be the key difference.
Yes, but logically this does not seem to be a correct difference that one can make, (even if the stewards are currently illogically seeing it as a difference).

The reason why those two rejoins were deemed unsafe is because another competitor got hampered by the rejoin and forced off the circuit, (or Hamilton would have been forced off but decided to brake sharply instead).

Had Hamillton been 5 seconds behind Seb, instead of about 1.5 seconds behind him, then Vettel could have done the exact same movements after his mistake and he would have completely gotten away with it because no other car was affected. The same with Max in Japan, if he goes off at the chicane in the middle of the race and immediately comes back on in an unsafe and aggressive manner, albeit with no other cars around, he again would be unpunished and Charlie's quote even confirms as much.

So if the key issue with the unsafe rejoins is other competitors being forced to take avoiding action by going off the course, (Hamilton), or literally being physically forced off the course, (Kimi)
then it is clear that drivers should not be forced off the track.

So now we apply this logic to Austria 2019, Leclerc clearly gets edged off the track by Max, or crowded off, like the rules mention. So if the problem all along is cars shouldn't be forced off like Kimi was and Hamilton would have been, then Max is guilty of treating Leclerc in the same way he treated Kimi, and the same way Vettel treated Hamilton. So a penalty should have been given to Max for this.

Now I accept that the stewards are seeing a difference between a recent track rejoiner and a normal overtaking move, my issue is that this difference they are seeing at the moment is not correct or logical, as the victim suffers the same ultimate transgression across all of these cases, namely being shoved off the track when they don't want to be.

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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by Siao7 »

mcdo wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mcdo wrote: The sport disagrees with you
Are you talking on behalf of the sport?
:uhoh:
Don't be a knob. The sport, by virtue of its own decisions, does not agree with the statements being made that poster
Ok, is this how we are talking in here now?

The sport has proven very inconsistent with their decisions during the years, it doesn't disagree with F1 Racer, it also disagrees with itself at times. So your blanket statement is wrong to say the least, the stewards inconsistency being a topic brought up very often to be ignored.
Point me to one incident the same as this one where the attacking driver got a penalty. Masi has said incidents from over 3 years ago are not relevant. So give me one incident in the last 3 years with wheel-on-wheel contact, where the defending driver ended up beyond the track limits on corner exit and the attacking driver got a penalty

If you can't then F1 Racer's statement is wrong. And additionally if you can't then the stewards have been consistent in not applying a penalty on this occasion
Nice try to shift the goals, but the onus is not on me to find you an incident to prove why this overtake was on the naughty side.

It seems that you have the opinion that a rule needs to be validated somehow by a decision. Not really, the rule is there, if the stewards didn't enforce it correctly then it is not the rule that is wrong, it is the stewards that need to enforce it. Leclrec was at the apex side by side with Max and was crowded out of the track. This much is clear.

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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by F1 Racer »

mcdo wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mcdo wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Except they didn't in Canada when they punished Vettel, or Japan 2018 when they punished Max.

According to the stewards at least, it only seems unacceptable to crowd another driver off the circuit when this is also part of a recent rejoin of the circuit from an off-track excursion. If either of the drivers have not left the circuit recently, then they are indeed free to squeeze and crowd each other off the track as they please. Only the rules don't really say this, they say that it is never acceptable, and most rational, objective people agree with it never being acceptable due to it negatively affecting the quality of the racing.

Not only that but it is literally unfair to the driver on the outside that has allowed the inside driver the apex, (without chopping across and 'claiming the apex himself' and crowding the inside driver up the inside kerbing like Max vs Ocon in Brazil 2018), and so he expects to be allowed the corner exit kerbing in return without being crowded off beyond the outside kerbing by the greedy inside driver that wants both the apex and the optimal corner exit trajectory.
They're not the same thing at all. Please stop referring to incidents that aren't comparable. Vettel-Hamilton has nothing to do with Verstappen-Leclerc
You don't explain why they aren't different though. The stewards were not happy that Vettel forced or attempted to force Hamilton off the circuit following his unsafe rejoin, as did Max against Kimi in Japan 2018. So in that sense, these incidents are all similar, forcing an innocent driver off the track is the issue in all of these cases, including Austria 2019.
They're not comparable at all! Vettel and Hamilton didn't even touch each other! There's no "in that sense", they're not comparable in any universe

In Canada the lead driver made an unforced error, rejoined the track in an unsafe manner and caused the attacking driver to take avoiding action. A penalty was handed out to him. What has it got in common with this? It was a battle for 1st and a Ferrari was involved - that's about it
Hamilton decided to brake to avoid contact due to there being a wall there. If there was no wall and instead a concrete run off, he would not have braked and instead would have taken to the outside part of the track to try and complete his pass. The stewards would still have penalised Seb, no matter what avoiding action Hamilton chose to take. The existence or non-existence of a wall does not affect the application of track limit rules, but it may affect the actual avoiding action taken by one of the drivers.

Instead look at Japan 2018, an incident only a few months ago where Kimi was edged off by Max in the same way as Leclerc was edged off. Charlie said it was a slam dunk penalty because of what Max did to Kimi. Well Max did the same to Leclerc in Austria, albeit not recently following a track rejoin. The same offence was still committed on Leclerc however.

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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by Siao7 »

mcdo wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mcdo wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Except they didn't in Canada when they punished Vettel, or Japan 2018 when they punished Max.

According to the stewards at least, it only seems unacceptable to crowd another driver off the circuit when this is also part of a recent rejoin of the circuit from an off-track excursion. If either of the drivers have not left the circuit recently, then they are indeed free to squeeze and crowd each other off the track as they please. Only the rules don't really say this, they say that it is never acceptable, and most rational, objective people agree with it never being acceptable due to it negatively affecting the quality of the racing.

Not only that but it is literally unfair to the driver on the outside that has allowed the inside driver the apex, (without chopping across and 'claiming the apex himself' and crowding the inside driver up the inside kerbing like Max vs Ocon in Brazil 2018), and so he expects to be allowed the corner exit kerbing in return without being crowded off beyond the outside kerbing by the greedy inside driver that wants both the apex and the optimal corner exit trajectory.
They're not the same thing at all. Please stop referring to incidents that aren't comparable. Vettel-Hamilton has nothing to do with Verstappen-Leclerc
You don't explain why they aren't different though. The stewards were not happy that Vettel forced or attempted to force Hamilton off the circuit following his unsafe rejoin, as did Max against Kimi in Japan 2018. So in that sense, these incidents are all similar, forcing an innocent driver off the track is the issue in all of these cases, including Austria 2019.
They're not comparable at all! Vettel and Hamilton didn't even touch each other! There's no "in that sense", they're not comparable in any universe

In Canada the lead driver made an unforced error, rejoined the track in an unsafe manner and caused the attacking driver to take avoiding action. A penalty was handed out to him. What has it got in common with this? It was a battle for 1st and a Ferrari was involved - that's about it
The penalty was given because Vettel was judged to have gained control of his car and he corrected his trajectory and crowded Hamilton off the track (https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/reas ... a/4461461/). They said that he could have chosen another tighter line. So very relevant indeed.

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Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:Yes, particularly with lap 68 being the perfect example of what Max should have been doing.
Exactly!

This is what gets me about the argument, or when people claim that 'Leclerc would never have been able to hang it around the outside anyway'. It's not some sort of hypothetical; literally that exact scenario happened the lap before, and when Max left the room he ought to have he got re-passed. Which - surprise, surprise! - is why he didn't do it the lap after.

He decided he couldn't overtake cleanly, so he just overtook in a dirty way he knew would go unpunished. Max Verstappen's racecraft in a nutshell.
Yep he didn't get it done the lap before when he allowed Leclerc to stay on the track so he knew what to do the second time.
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