How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPLIT)

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scouseknight
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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by scouseknight »

Invade wrote:
jeffw wrote:And a shame we will never see Lewis -vs- Max head to head in the same car.
I wouldn't write off that possibility just yet...
Might happen too late if it does though - would be nice if it was when Hamilton was still in his prime.
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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by sandman1347 »

FormulaFun wrote:
jeffw wrote:And a shame we will never see Lewis -vs- Max head to head in the same car.
Rumor has it Max turned down opportunity to join Merc - would be VERY interesting to find out how accurate that is, but we basically won't know definitively for many years if ever
Honestly it's a smart choice. Max currently has a team that is 100% built around him and it's a very strong team. He also has time on his side. He can race another 15 years in F1 easily. If Red Bull/Honda are not able to reach the summit, he can always go to Mercedes in the future. It's not like they'll lose interest and by then, Hamilton will probably be gone and Max will have a much smoother experience.

Contrary to what some overzealous fans online say, Max understands that racing against Hamilton in the same car would not be advantageous for him. The intensity of the pressure he would be under every single race weekend would be beyond anything he's experienced and he would be judged based on whether or not he could actually beat Lewis. With the amount of hype around him, no one would give him a moral victory for just being respectable. Look at what happened to Vettel last year. Look at all of the negativity he has had to deal with in the press and the disrespect. Max has a very positive little bubble right now and I think it's wise of him not to risk bursting it.

He's in a good place right now partially because of his age relative to Lewis. Why join him when you might be able to beat him from where you are in a year or two? Why join him when you might be able to replace him in 3 years? I think Max has faith in what Red Bull and Honda are doing and, I honestly agree with him. They are having an excellent first year all things considered and the pedigree is undeniable. Again, if it goes much longer without them reaching par with the leaders, Max will still be able to move on to almost any team he wants to drive for.

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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by scouseknight »

sandman1347 wrote: Why join him when you might be able to beat him from where you are in a year or two? Why join him when you might be able to replace him in 3 years? I think Max has faith in what Red Bull and Honda are doing and, I honestly agree with him. They are having an excellent first year all things considered and the pedigree is undeniable. Again, if it goes much longer without them reaching par with the leaders, Max will still be able to move on to almost any team he wants to drive for.
This is exactly why I believe if it ever does happen, it will be too late - but it isn't as if this hasn't happened many times over. How many times have we wondered about <insert driver pairing> and it never happened? It's just the way it goes. What is good though is Max's undeniable talent is being appreciated regardless. Unlike some other prospects, you get the feeling it'll actually happen for Max. I feel the same way about Le Clerc too.
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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by Siao7 »

scouseknight wrote:
Invade wrote:
jeffw wrote:And a shame we will never see Lewis -vs- Max head to head in the same car.
I wouldn't write off that possibility just yet...
Might happen too late if it does though - would be nice if it was when Hamilton was still in his prime.
On a separate note, wow, this is a blast from the past, haven't seen you around for a while!

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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Based on a dataset from the last 24 hours, and using the theory that you can compared driver pace by their delta to their teammates, and that that theory has concluded that Max is 3 tenths faster than Hamilton, Gasly is 1.1 seconds faster than Hamilton.

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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by Option or Prime »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:Based on a dataset from the last 24 hours, and using the theory that you can compared driver pace by their delta to their teammates, and that that theory has concluded that Max is 3 tenths faster than Hamilton, Gasly is 1.1 seconds faster than Hamilton.
Well thats the argument settled then!

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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by babararacucudada »

sandman1347 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
jeffw wrote:And a shame we will never see Lewis -vs- Max head to head in the same car.
Rumor has it Max turned down opportunity to join Merc - would be VERY interesting to find out how accurate that is, but we basically won't know definitively for many years if ever
Honestly it's a smart choice. Max currently has a team that is 100% built around him and it's a very strong team. He also has time on his side. He can race another 15 years in F1 easily. If Red Bull/Honda are not able to reach the summit, he can always go to Mercedes in the future. It's not like they'll lose interest and by then, Hamilton will probably be gone and Max will have a much smoother experience.

Contrary to what some overzealous fans online say, Max understands that racing against Hamilton in the same car would not be advantageous for him. The intensity of the pressure he would be under every single race weekend would be beyond anything he's experienced and he would be judged based on whether or not he could actually beat Lewis. With the amount of hype around him, no one would give him a moral victory for just being respectable. Look at what happened to Vettel last year. Look at all of the negativity he has had to deal with in the press and the disrespect. Max has a very positive little bubble right now and I think it's wise of him not to risk bursting it.

He's in a good place right now partially because of his age relative to Lewis. Why join him when you might be able to beat him from where you are in a year or two? Why join him when you might be able to replace him in 3 years? I think Max has faith in what Red Bull and Honda are doing and, I honestly agree with him. They are having an excellent first year all things considered and the pedigree is undeniable. Again, if it goes much longer without them reaching par with the leaders, Max will still be able to move on to almost any team he wants to drive for.
On the other hand, if Max thought he was going to get a level playing field and thinks he is better than Hamilton, then why not prove it so that you don't have that 'but' hanging over you in the future? The impression I get is that Max does not fear anyone.

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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

Option or Prime wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:Based on a dataset from the last 24 hours, and using the theory that you can compared driver pace by their delta to their teammates, and that that theory has concluded that Max is 3 tenths faster than Hamilton, Gasly is 1.1 seconds faster than Hamilton.
Well thats the argument settled then!
Very true... Gasly is the GOAT!

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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by Fiki »

babararacucudada wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
jeffw wrote:And a shame we will never see Lewis -vs- Max head to head in the same car.
Rumor has it Max turned down opportunity to join Merc - would be VERY interesting to find out how accurate that is, but we basically won't know definitively for many years if ever
Honestly it's a smart choice. Max currently has a team that is 100% built around him and it's a very strong team. He also has time on his side. He can race another 15 years in F1 easily. If Red Bull/Honda are not able to reach the summit, he can always go to Mercedes in the future. It's not like they'll lose interest and by then, Hamilton will probably be gone and Max will have a much smoother experience.

Contrary to what some overzealous fans online say, Max understands that racing against Hamilton in the same car would not be advantageous for him. The intensity of the pressure he would be under every single race weekend would be beyond anything he's experienced and he would be judged based on whether or not he could actually beat Lewis. With the amount of hype around him, no one would give him a moral victory for just being respectable. Look at what happened to Vettel last year. Look at all of the negativity he has had to deal with in the press and the disrespect. Max has a very positive little bubble right now and I think it's wise of him not to risk bursting it.

He's in a good place right now partially because of his age relative to Lewis. Why join him when you might be able to beat him from where you are in a year or two? Why join him when you might be able to replace him in 3 years? I think Max has faith in what Red Bull and Honda are doing and, I honestly agree with him. They are having an excellent first year all things considered and the pedigree is undeniable. Again, if it goes much longer without them reaching par with the leaders, Max will still be able to move on to almost any team he wants to drive for.
On the other hand, if Max thought he was going to get a level playing field and thinks he is better than Hamilton, then why not prove it so that you don't have that 'but' hanging over you in the future? The impression I get is that Max does not fear anyone.
He's had no reason to fear anyone. He's only had two types of car in F1. I believe his main advantage over Hamilton would be age, but I don't believe that is a factor yet in Hamilton's case.
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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by Option or Prime »

Fiki wrote:
On the other hand, if Max thought he was going to get a level playing field and thinks he is better than Hamilton, then why not prove it so that you don't have that 'but' hanging over you in the future? The impression I get is that Max does not fear anyone.
He's had no reason to fear anyone. He's only had two types of car in F1. I believe his main advantage over Hamilton would be age, but I don't believe that is a factor yet in Hamilton's case.[/quote]

So you don't think experience has a role to play then?

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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by sandman1347 »

babararacucudada wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
jeffw wrote:And a shame we will never see Lewis -vs- Max head to head in the same car.
Rumor has it Max turned down opportunity to join Merc - would be VERY interesting to find out how accurate that is, but we basically won't know definitively for many years if ever
Honestly it's a smart choice. Max currently has a team that is 100% built around him and it's a very strong team. He also has time on his side. He can race another 15 years in F1 easily. If Red Bull/Honda are not able to reach the summit, he can always go to Mercedes in the future. It's not like they'll lose interest and by then, Hamilton will probably be gone and Max will have a much smoother experience.

Contrary to what some overzealous fans online say, Max understands that racing against Hamilton in the same car would not be advantageous for him. The intensity of the pressure he would be under every single race weekend would be beyond anything he's experienced and he would be judged based on whether or not he could actually beat Lewis. With the amount of hype around him, no one would give him a moral victory for just being respectable. Look at what happened to Vettel last year. Look at all of the negativity he has had to deal with in the press and the disrespect. Max has a very positive little bubble right now and I think it's wise of him not to risk bursting it.

He's in a good place right now partially because of his age relative to Lewis. Why join him when you might be able to beat him from where you are in a year or two? Why join him when you might be able to replace him in 3 years? I think Max has faith in what Red Bull and Honda are doing and, I honestly agree with him. They are having an excellent first year all things considered and the pedigree is undeniable. Again, if it goes much longer without them reaching par with the leaders, Max will still be able to move on to almost any team he wants to drive for.
On the other hand, if Max thought he was going to get a level playing field and thinks he is better than Hamilton, then why not prove it so that you don't have that 'but' hanging over you in the future? The impression I get is that Max does not fear anyone.
It's not necessarily about fear. It's more about choosing the best environment for himself and his career. Joining Mercedes would bring his career to an immediate crossroads. Either he's able to beat Lewis or he's not. If he can't beat Lewis then he will forever be pegged based on that. Contrary to what some fans might think, that's not a very enticing situation for Max. Staying where he is will allow him to build his own legacy and not face such an extreme litmus test so early in his career. If he teams with Hamilton a few years later, he will probably be stronger and Lewis will probably be weaker by then.

You have to be careful not to mix up what fans say on the internet with what someone in Max's position would actually be thinking. Sure fans might want to see that matchup but for Max that would be jumping into a pressure-cooker. Max has very high ambition and wants to go down in history as the greatest. Being beaten by Hamilton might actually create a situation where, no matter what he does, he cannot achieve that. If he never faces Hamilton head to head; the media will probably give him the benefit of the doubt.

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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by pokerman »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:Based on a dataset from the last 24 hours, and using the theory that you can compared driver pace by their delta to their teammates, and that that theory has concluded that Max is 3 tenths faster than Hamilton, Gasly is 1.1 seconds faster than Hamilton.
If only it actually worked like that, it's not like Rubens never out qualified Schumacher.
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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by Option or Prime »

pokerman wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:Based on a dataset from the last 24 hours, and using the theory that you can compared driver pace by their delta to their teammates, and that that theory has concluded that Max is 3 tenths faster than Hamilton, Gasly is 1.1 seconds faster than Hamilton.
If only it actually worked like that, it's not like Rubens never out qualified Schumacher.
Not at all sure this driver comparison thing is reliable, Gasly punching holes in it currently, sort of making this thread a bit meaningless!

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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by Jezza13 »

sandman1347 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
jeffw wrote:And a shame we will never see Lewis -vs- Max head to head in the same car.
Rumor has it Max turned down opportunity to join Merc - would be VERY interesting to find out how accurate that is, but we basically won't know definitively for many years if ever
Honestly it's a smart choice. Max currently has a team that is 100% built around him and it's a very strong team. He also has time on his side. He can race another 15 years in F1 easily. If Red Bull/Honda are not able to reach the summit, he can always go to Mercedes in the future. It's not like they'll lose interest and by then, Hamilton will probably be gone and Max will have a much smoother experience.

Contrary to what some overzealous fans online say, Max understands that racing against Hamilton in the same car would not be advantageous for him. The intensity of the pressure he would be under every single race weekend would be beyond anything he's experienced and he would be judged based on whether or not he could actually beat Lewis. With the amount of hype around him, no one would give him a moral victory for just being respectable. Look at what happened to Vettel last year. Look at all of the negativity he has had to deal with in the press and the disrespect. Max has a very positive little bubble right now and I think it's wise of him not to risk bursting it.

He's in a good place right now partially because of his age relative to Lewis. Why join him when you might be able to beat him from where you are in a year or two? Why join him when you might be able to replace him in 3 years? I think Max has faith in what Red Bull and Honda are doing and, I honestly agree with him. They are having an excellent first year all things considered and the pedigree is undeniable. Again, if it goes much longer without them reaching par with the leaders, Max will still be able to move on to almost any team he wants to drive for.
The emphasis on the last sentence there should be the word almost.

I'd say the Ferrari option may be closed to him if Leclerc continues on his current trajectory. Merc maybe an option if Hamilton retires & if they do bring in Ocon & / or Russell & they can't deliver. Of course he could stay at RB but currently they're not in a position to challenge for championships & there's not guarantee they will. If Renault ever manage to get their s**t together they've got Ricciardo as their $20m man so i'd imagine that'd exclude Verstappen from joining them & Macca have Sainz & Norris, who to me is close to the driver of the year so far, performing particularly well so if they make it back to the top i'm not sure there's room for Verstappen there either.

So in short I don't think a WC for Verstappen is as certain as some believe. I think it's quite a bit harder for a driver to position himself for the opportunity to drive a WC winning car these days than it was 15-20 yrs ago because of the advent of the YDP's and that drivers are entering the sport at a much younger age, migrating to top teams quicker than they used to & will probably be ensconced as the #1 driver in those teams for a longer period until another driver from the YDP moves up.

I think if Verstappen wants to be remembered as one of if not the GOAT then I think he needs the challenge of proving himself in direct head to head combat against Hamilton if he's given the opportunity.

The one argument people put forward against Schumacher being the GOAT is that his team mates were considered to be there a support for him in a team built around him &, unlike almost every other person who's name pops up in GOAT discussions, he never went up against a driver who was considered to be of a similar quality in equal equipment. I'm not saying the argument's valid, & i'm not saying it isn't, but to many it's a reasonable enough concern to disqualify Schumacher from GOAT consideration & unless Verstappen takes the opportunity, if indeed he does get the opportunity, to take on Hamilton in the same equipment then he risks being thrown in the same basket.
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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by KingVoid »

I am quite convinced that Verstappen would not be outqualified by a Bottas level driver 30-40% of the time.

It’s a shame this battle will likely never happen, because I’m fairly confident that Max would have Lewis beat on pure speed.

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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by Option or Prime »

KingVoid wrote:I am quite convinced that Verstappen would not be outqualified by a Bottas level driver 30-40% of the time.

It’s a shame this battle will likely never happen, because I’m fairly confident that Max would have Lewis beat on pure speed.
Out of interest do you think MV is the fastest of all the current drivers including, Norris, Russell, Leclerc, Ocon etc. I say this because MV himself see Norris as a future WDC according to C4.
I think there is a crop of drivers coming through capable of the top slot. That might well be decided by who gets the seat in the fast cars. The criteria for those spots don't necessarily get decided by speed alone.

I think Hamilton will rumble on for say 2 years, I'm not at all sure MV would get his slot whether Hamilton is there or not. His best bet as mentioned above is to stay at Red Bull in my view.

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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by KingVoid »

Verstappen is the standout driver of the next generation. I also rate Norris, Russell and Leclerc very highly but Max is a step above all.

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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by pokerman »

Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:Based on a dataset from the last 24 hours, and using the theory that you can compared driver pace by their delta to their teammates, and that that theory has concluded that Max is 3 tenths faster than Hamilton, Gasly is 1.1 seconds faster than Hamilton.
If only it actually worked like that, it's not like Rubens never out qualified Schumacher.
Not at all sure this driver comparison thing is reliable, Gasly punching holes in it currently, sort of making this thread a bit meaningless!
...and then Verstappen out qualifies Gasly by 3 tenths, quite desperate to be using practice sessions to dispel a mathematical comparison, also quite ridiculous that a driver has to be quicker every single time he hits the track to prove that he is quicker than his teammate.
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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by pokerman »

Option or Prime wrote:
KingVoid wrote:I am quite convinced that Verstappen would not be outqualified by a Bottas level driver 30-40% of the time.

It’s a shame this battle will likely never happen, because I’m fairly confident that Max would have Lewis beat on pure speed.
Out of interest do you think MV is the fastest of all the current drivers including, Norris, Russell, Leclerc, Ocon etc. I say this because MV himself see Norris as a future WDC according to C4.
I think there is a crop of drivers coming through capable of the top slot. That might well be decided by who gets the seat in the fast cars. The criteria for those spots don't necessarily get decided by speed alone.

I think Hamilton will rumble on for say 2 years, I'm not at all sure MV would get his slot whether Hamilton is there or not. His best bet as mentioned above is to stay at Red Bull in my view.
For my part it's too early to be able to make those kind of comparisons.
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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by pokerman »

Interesting to see that this thread has transgressed to another forum, unfortunately for me KingVoid's posts have been attributed to me and I've taken all the flak.
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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

Whether or not Verstappen desires to pursue a drive at Mercedes is not primarily dependent on ego or a desire to have a legacy, but money.

Red Bull's method of driver salaries has been contrary to other teams, in that the baseline salary sucks, but the bonuses for doing well pays handsomely. That is why two of the best, Vettel and Ricciardo bailed once the podiums stopped coming.

Verstappen has now established himself as one of the top drivers, and now it's time to cash out, to make a bucketload of money. If Red Bull can not provide that path by a winning car, then there is Mercedes, Ferrari, or other well-heeled teams like McLaren who do desire a quality number two. IMO Ferrari seem happy with their drivers, Mercedes could replace Bottas, and are looking five years into the future to where Hamilton is no longer the driving monster he was, and Mclaren do have an opening in their roster.

On top of it all, does anyone remember the rumors a few years ago where Red Bull would pull up their stakes and leave Formula One? The last few years have been lean, and with the new Valkyre hypercar being prepared for LeMans, it would not be a surprise to the racing community if Red Bull leave Formula One in pursuit of LeMans.
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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by pokerman »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:Whether or not Verstappen desires to pursue a drive at Mercedes is not primarily dependent on ego or a desire to have a legacy, but money.

Red Bull's method of driver salaries has been contrary to other teams, in that the baseline salary sucks, but the bonuses for doing well pays handsomely. That is why two of the best, Vettel and Ricciardo bailed once the podiums stopped coming.

Verstappen has now established himself as one of the top drivers, and now it's time to cash out, to make a bucketload of money. If Red Bull can not provide that path by a winning car, then there is Mercedes, Ferrari, or other well-heeled teams like McLaren who do desire a quality number two. IMO Ferrari seem happy with their drivers, Mercedes could replace Bottas, and are looking five years into the future to where Hamilton is no longer the driving monster he was, and Mclaren do have an opening in their roster.

On top of it all, does anyone remember the rumors a few years ago where Red Bull would pull up their stakes and leave Formula One? The last few years have been lean, and with the new Valkyre hypercar being prepared for LeMans, it would not be a surprise to the racing community if Red Bull leave Formula One in pursuit of LeMans.
That actually changed with Verstappen, they are paying him a bucket load of cash to stave off interest from Mercedes.
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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by KingVoid »

pokerman wrote:Interesting to see that this thread has transgressed to another forum, unfortunately for me KingVoid's posts have been attributed to me and I've taken all the flak.
:lol:

I’ve just seen what you’re talking about

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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:Interesting to see that this thread has transgressed to another forum, unfortunately for me KingVoid's posts have been attributed to me and I've taken all the flak.
:lol:

I’ve just seen what you’re talking about
It's not funny. :( :)
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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by KingVoid »

pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:Interesting to see that this thread has transgressed to another forum, unfortunately for me KingVoid's posts have been attributed to me and I've taken all the flak.
:lol:

I’ve just seen what you’re talking about
It's not funny. :( :)
This is somewhat relevant to this thread. Ricciardo’s qualifying gaps to Hulkenberg:

Image
source: f1 reddit

Ricciardo’s median gap to Hulkenberg is 0.184%

This is comparable to Alonso’s gap over Button, and slightly smaller than Hamilton’s gap over Button. I rate Hulkenberg, Perez and Button as equals over one lap. If anything Hulk was a bit quicker than Perez in Q.

Where do you think that Danny Ric stacks up compared to Hamilton and Alonso on pure one lap pace? I estimate that he’s about as quick as Alonso was, and within a tenth of Hamilton.

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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:Interesting to see that this thread has transgressed to another forum, unfortunately for me KingVoid's posts have been attributed to me and I've taken all the flak.
:lol:

I’ve just seen what you’re talking about
It's not funny. :( :)
This is somewhat relevant to this thread. Ricciardo’s qualifying gaps to Hulkenberg:

Image
source: f1 reddit

Ricciardo’s median gap to Hulkenberg is 0.184%

This is comparable to Alonso’s gap over Button, and slightly smaller than Hamilton’s gap over Button. I rate Hulkenberg, Perez and Button as equals over one lap. If anything Hulk was a bit quicker than Perez in Q.

Where do you think that Danny Ric stacks up compared to Hamilton and Alonso on pure one lap pace? I estimate that he’s about as quick as Alonso was, and within a tenth of Hamilton.
Similar to mine but I believe that Reddit include everything ignoring that the Hulk had a technical issue with his car in Bahrain which I didn't include, nominally the Hulk was set to be quicker than Ricciardo without his problem.

Hamilton's gap over Button was clearly bigger than Alonso's gap over Button, strange you should say that because that's the first time I've ever seen that said.

I think you could be right were you place Ricciardo bearing in mind that the figures with the Hulk presently are weighted quite a bit by the close to 1 second gap in Baku, presently he's looking to be in the middle between Hamilton and Alonso.
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Pullrod
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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by Pullrod »

Pullrod wrote:What I read are the same guys who were in the Alonso camp now behind Verstappen.

The Bestest driver tag was first of Alonso, then Ricciardo and now Verstappen.
People(not only here) has never acknowledged Lewis as the best despite his unbelievable career and even if they did, there is also the "but", "bar Alonso" bla bla bla cr*p.

Hamilton is a smart guy and I am sure he will prefer to go out with a bang so I have no doubt he will welcome Verstappen in his team.

The only guy I will fear as a Hamilton fan is Leclerc, because he is so charming and calm he will quickly remove the seat under anybody a*s.
As of now Verstappen has it easy compared to Hamilton, Vettel or Leclerc. He is superman right? I would be curious to see him drive a car different than the RedBull as I am sure he will be a different driver(you can not follow with a Mercedes for example and their braking is cr*p).

If I had one name for the future it would be Leclerc.
Just to quote myself.
Both Leclerc and Hamilton have racecraft and awareness that is simply unreal compared to the other drivers.

It is no coincidence they have won everything in the series before F1.
Their craft is top notch and the result of experience unlike those of RB guys(present and ex) simulator experts and always in one way or another involved in crashes.

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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by FormulaFun »

I agree I think leclerc is gonna be the best out of leclerc and Verstappen after a few years. It's often forgotten how much leeway Verstappen was given in his initial years, leclerc didn't need that and he is already beating a 4x WDC in my estimations. And if you have watched anything of leclerc in junior years you will know his race craft is sublime, I think he is much more controlled than Verstappen already

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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by sandman1347 »

FormulaFun wrote:I agree I think leclerc is gonna be the best out of leclerc and Verstappen after a few years. It's often forgotten how much leeway Verstappen was given in his initial years, leclerc didn't need that and he is already beating a 4x WDC in my estimations. And if you have watched anything of leclerc in junior years you will know his race craft is sublime, I think he is much more controlled than Verstappen already
I'm just happy that he came back fighting today and showed Max that he's on his level. What Charles did after losing out in the pits was awesome. He just jumped Max and stole his lunch money. I've wanted to see that aggression from him in the battle with Max because Max is the type to bully drivers who don't fight back.

With these two and Lando, I see three guys who are future champions and all of them are 21 or younger! It's exciting to see this next generation take shape. Albon also seems to be establishing the firm upper-hand now over Kvyat and I think Russell is only off the radar because the car is so bad. Lots of strong youngsters.

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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by FormulaFun »

sandman1347 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:I agree I think leclerc is gonna be the best out of leclerc and Verstappen after a few years. It's often forgotten how much leeway Verstappen was given in his initial years, leclerc didn't need that and he is already beating a 4x WDC in my estimations. And if you have watched anything of leclerc in junior years you will know his race craft is sublime, I think he is much more controlled than Verstappen already
I'm just happy that he came back fighting today and showed Max that he's on his level. What Charles did after losing out in the pits was awesome. He just jumped Max and stole his lunch money. I've wanted to see that aggression from him in the battle with Max because Max is the type to bully drivers who don't fight back.

With these two and Lando, I see three guys who are future champions and all of them are 21 or younger! It's exciting to see this next generation take shape. Albon also seems to be establishing the firm upper-hand now over Kvyat and I think Russell is only off the radar because the car is so bad. Lots of strong youngsters.
Definitely. I was very shocked with how easily he kinda gave up the position in Austria, but it feels like that was a big learning curve. Seems like he also looked himself in the mirror and said that to himself aswell. He said in an interview this weekend that he took it back that it should have been a penalty and that he should have been more aggressive himself, so I think it's really promising that he has the mental fortitude to do that at such a young age. Perhaps he still had that rookie kind of mentality which he needed Austria to kick out of him

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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by scouseknight »

Siao7 wrote: On a separate note, wow, this is a blast from the past, haven't seen you around for a while!
Haha, thank you it certainly has been a while! Nice to see some familiar usernames still posting.
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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by Johnson »

KingVoid wrote:I am quite convinced that Verstappen would not be outqualified by a Bottas level driver 30-40% of the time.

It’s a shame this battle will likely never happen, because I’m fairly confident that Max would have Lewis beat on pure speed.
Edit - to update error in 2019.

40% is getting toward near equal, Bottas is not that close, it’s 31% and below 30% for both full seasons. But he is doing well this year so far. It’s worth noting though, in Bottas’ 4 poles this year, Hamilton won the race 3 times. Bottas did beat Massa to the same level Alonso did over 1 lap. He was also 3-3 in early 2017 and 3-4 in early 2018.

2017:
LH 13-5 VB (28%)

2018:
LH 15-6 VB (29%)

2019:
LH 6-4 VB (40%)

Overall: 31%
Last edited by Johnson on Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by pokerman »

Johnson wrote:
KingVoid wrote:I am quite convinced that Verstappen would not be outqualified by a Bottas level driver 30-40% of the time.

It’s a shame this battle will likely never happen, because I’m fairly confident that Max would have Lewis beat on pure speed.
40% is getting toward near equal, Bottas is not that close, it’s 33%. But he is doing well this year so far. It’s worth noting though, in Bottas’ 4 poles this year, Hamilton won the race 3 times. Bottas did beat Massa to the same level Alonso did over 1 lap. He was also 3-3 in early 2017 and 3-4 in early 2018.

2017:
LH 13-5 VB (28%)

2018:
LH 15-6 VB (29%)

2019:
LH 5-5 VB (50%)

Overall: 33%
2019 is 6-4 to Hamilton, Bottas started in front of Hamilton in Austria because of his grid penalty.
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KingVoid
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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by KingVoid »

Johnson wrote:Bottas did beat Massa to the same level Alonso did over 1 lap.
I have heard this myth many times but it simply isn’t true.

Bottas beat Massa by 0.170s
Alonso beat Massa by 0.285s

Personally, I don’t believe Bottas is any quicker than Hulkenberg in qualifying. Hulkenberg beat Perez by a small margin in qualifying, and Perez was dead even with Button. Ricciardo has Hulkenberg covered in over one lap. Again, those are just more pieces in the puzzle.

I would estimate qualifying speed to be something like this:

Verstappen (quickest)
Hamilton (+0.100s)
Ricciardo = Alonso (+0.170s)

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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by Exediron »

KingVoid wrote:I would estimate qualifying speed to be something like this:

Verstappen (quickest)
Hamilton (+0.100s)
Ricciardo = Alonso (+0.170s)
So going off of this, what would Leclerc need to average over Vettel to be estimated as being on Max's pace?
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Johnson
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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by Johnson »

KingVoid wrote:
Johnson wrote:Bottas did beat Massa to the same level Alonso did over 1 lap.
I have heard this myth many times but it simply isn’t true.

Bottas beat Massa by 0.170s
Alonso beat Massa by 0.285s


Personally, I don’t believe Bottas is any quicker than Hulkenberg in qualifying. Hulkenberg beat Perez by a small margin in qualifying, and Perez was dead even with Button. Ricciardo has Hulkenberg covered in over one lap. Again, those are just more pieces in the puzzle.

I would estimate qualifying speed to be something like this:

Verstappen (quickest)
Hamilton (+0.100s)
Ricciardo = Alonso (+0.170s)
Fair enough, I was incorrect to say equalled but he still beat comfortably beat him.

Those numbers would make Hamilton about 0.300-0.350 up on Massa which is what I think is logical if looking at 2008 when Massa comfortably beat Hamilton (dry races).

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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by Option or Prime »

KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:Interesting to see that this thread has transgressed to another forum, unfortunately for me KingVoid's posts have been attributed to me and I've taken all the flak.
:lol:

I’ve just seen what you’re talking about
It's not funny. :( :)
This is somewhat relevant to this thread. Ricciardo’s qualifying gaps to Hulkenberg:

Image
source: f1 reddit

Ricciardo’s median gap to Hulkenberg is 0.184%

This is comparable to Alonso’s gap over Button, and slightly smaller than Hamilton’s gap over Button. I rate Hulkenberg, Perez and Button as equals over one lap. If anything Hulk was a bit quicker than Perez in Q.

Where do you think that Danny Ric stacks up compared to Hamilton and Alonso on pure one lap pace? I estimate that he’s about as quick as Alonso was, and within a tenth of Hamilton.
Those time differences are not right. eg AUT 64.79-64.516=0.23 not as in the table 0.423. Might be worth checking the others, it might not alter the argument but its nice to be right!

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Johnson
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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by Johnson »

That is correct as its a percentage. Percentage allows direct comparison between tracks. For example being 0.1 behind in Spa at 1m 45s lap is completely different to being 0.1 behind at Austria a 1m 3s lap.

0.423% is correct for Austria

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Re: How fast is Verstappen relative to Hamilton? (THREAD SPL

Post by Option or Prime »

OK, I see that now thanks.

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