Can the 2019 cars race any better than last year's?

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tim3003
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Can the 2019 cars race any better than last year's?

Post by tim3003 »

When the season started in Australia I thought the new cars were able to race a bit closer and so overtaking looked easier at Melbourne (ie just about possible instead of impossible). Several races on I'm not so sure there is any difference at all. At Montreal there was very little overtaking - and none that I saw at the traditional place - the hairpin. At Paul Ricard the only passing happened under DRS at the chicane. I suppose any is better than none, but these were in theory circuits where overtaking is relatively easy! The way things are going I suspect Austria next week will be dire, possibly Silverstone too.

What do people think?

mikeyg123
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Re: Can the 2019 cars race any better than last year's?

Post by mikeyg123 »

tim3003 wrote:When the season started in Australia I thought the new cars were able to race a bit closer and so overtaking looked easier at Melbourne (ie just about possible instead of impossible). Several races on I'm not so sure there is any difference at all. At Montreal there was very little overtaking - and none that I saw at the traditional place - the hairpin. At Paul Ricard the only passing happened under DRS at the chicane. I suppose any is better than none, but these were in theory circuits where overtaking is relatively easy! The way things are going I suspect Austria next week will be dire, possibly Silverstone too.

What do people think?
The top cars seem to struggle more than the midfield cars. It seems very hard for drivers in a top car to get within 1.3 seconds of the guy in front.

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jimmyj
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Re: Can the 2019 cars race any better than last year's?

Post by jimmyj »

I too hoped that there would be more actual racing this season. I don't think we are going to see it though. The cars, the tightening up of rules, etc seem to be leading us down a path of blah.

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tim3003
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Re: Can the 2019 cars race any better than last year's?

Post by tim3003 »

mikeyg123 wrote: The top cars seem to struggle more than the midfield cars. It seems very hard for drivers in a top car to get within 1.3 seconds of the guy in front.
Maybe - as always happens, the top teams have already made up the lost downforce, and more importantly the lost sensitivity, which the banning of the complex front wings should have brought about.

It just shows, to keep ahead of the game the FIA need to bring in rule changes with twice the effect on downforce they think is needed..

mikeyg123
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Re: Can the 2019 cars race any better than last year's?

Post by mikeyg123 »

tim3003 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote: The top cars seem to struggle more than the midfield cars. It seems very hard for drivers in a top car to get within 1.3 seconds of the guy in front.
Maybe - as always happens, the top teams have already made up the lost downforce, and more importantly the lost sensitivity, which the banning of the complex front wings should have brought about.

It just shows, to keep ahead of the game the FIA need to bring in rule changes with twice the effect on downforce they think is needed..
I'm almost at the point now where I just kind of want the powers that be to just outlaw wings or standardise a very basic front and rear wing but open up development for the rest of the car.

Yellowbin74
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Re: Can the 2019 cars race any better than last year's?

Post by Yellowbin74 »

It seemed so earlier in the year, but maybe it's track specific. The tyre situation has an impact as well I feel - drivers are scared to sit too "close" for too long.
Should I grow a beard?

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Badgeronimous
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Re: Can the 2019 cars race any better than last year's?

Post by Badgeronimous »

Unless you have about a 1.5s to 2s a lap pace advantage. Overtaking is still very hard. A car with a slight pace advantage still can't follow that closely.

So it hasn't really changed anything.
Last edited by Badgeronimous on Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

KingVoid
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Re: Can the 2019 cars race any better than last year's?

Post by KingVoid »

I haven’t noticed any difference.

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Johnson
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Re: Can the 2019 cars race any better than last year's?

Post by Johnson »

Last years Paul Ricard had a lot of cars running out of order. Vettel and Bottas both came through the field as did a Red Bull I believe. It also had a freaky head or tail wind on the main straight that massively aided overtaking.

This year, Paul Ricard, the cars were nearly all in speed order once Vettel gained his 2-3 places. I think they can follow a bit closer, the test will be when a Mercedes finds itself behind a Ferrari on a track were overtaking is usually possible.

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tim3003
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Re: Can the 2019 cars race any better than last year's?

Post by tim3003 »

Johnson wrote:This year, Paul Ricard, the cars were nearly all in speed order once Vettel gained his 2-3 places. I think they can follow a bit closer, the test will be when a Mercedes finds itself behind a Ferrari on a track were overtaking is usually possible.
You mean like Canada? where Hamilton could not get past Vettel...

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Johnson
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Re: Can the 2019 cars race any better than last year's?

Post by Johnson »

tim3003 wrote:
Johnson wrote:This year, Paul Ricard, the cars were nearly all in speed order once Vettel gained his 2-3 places. I think they can follow a bit closer, the test will be when a Mercedes finds itself behind a Ferrari on a track were overtaking is usually possible.
You mean like Canada? where Hamilton could not get past Vettel...
Canada has never been an easier overtake track. Its in the bottom half for overtaking.

China, Bahrain (where we already saw a Ferrari on Ferrari pass and Mercedes on Ferrari pass), Silverstone, Spa, Austin, Baku, Germany etc etc

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tim3003
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Re: Can the 2019 cars race any better than last year's?

Post by tim3003 »

Johnson wrote: Canada has never been an easier overtake track. Its in the bottom half for overtaking.
You didnt ask for an 'easy to overtake track'. :D

Surely Canada must be somewhere in the middle? From past experience it's the sort of track with straights and slow corners where I'd have thought it should be possible among closely matched cars. If it isn't I think there's still a problem..

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Re: Can the 2019 cars race any better than last year's?

Post by Filip »

jimmyj wrote:I too hoped that there would be more actual racing this season. I don't think we are going to see it though. The cars, the tightening up of rules, etc seem to be leading us down a path of blah.
Yeh, they did nice change to 2019 car, we see one of the worst seasons i ever witnessed in any sport.

F1 is dying, hybrid era did it, Merc lobbying did it.

Also thanks Liberty for circuits like Russia, Baku, Freaking ultra pathetic Paul Ricard, etc. They think they sign for some tropical track, and it will promote F1 there, but it doesn`t, provides poor racing which in general losing fan base.

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Re: Can the 2019 cars race any better than last year's?

Post by Badgeronimous »

tim3003 wrote:
Johnson wrote: Canada has never been an easier overtake track. Its in the bottom half for overtaking.
You didnt ask for an 'easy to overtake track'. :D

Surely Canada must be somewhere in the middle? From past experience it's the sort of track with straights and slow corners where I'd have thought it should be possible among closely matched cars. If it isn't I think there's still a problem..
Tbf, historically the hairpin at Canada was one of the best overtaking oppertunities of the season.

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Re: Can the 2019 cars race any better than last year's?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Filip wrote:
jimmyj wrote:I too hoped that there would be more actual racing this season. I don't think we are going to see it though. The cars, the tightening up of rules, etc seem to be leading us down a path of blah.
Yeh, they did nice change to 2019 car, we see one of the worst seasons i ever witnessed in any sport.

F1 is dying, hybrid era did it, Merc lobbying did it.

Also thanks Liberty for circuits like Russia, Baku, Freaking ultra pathetic Paul Ricard, etc. They think they sign for some tropical track, and it will promote F1 there, but it doesn`t, provides poor racing which in general losing fan base.
The tracks aren't the issue really. The cars can't get within 1.2 seconds of each other. No matter the layout of the circuit, that will make overtaking difficult.

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Johnson
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Re: Can the 2019 cars race any better than last year's?

Post by Johnson »

Badgeronimous wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
Johnson wrote: Canada has never been an easier overtake track. Its in the bottom half for overtaking.
You didnt ask for an 'easy to overtake track'. :D

Surely Canada must be somewhere in the middle? From past experience it's the sort of track with straights and slow corners where I'd have thought it should be possible among closely matched cars. If it isn't I think there's still a problem..
Tbf, historically the hairpin at Canada was one of the best overtaking oppertunities of the season.
That is going back quite a long way, its been years since somebody has done it there with relatively close cars.

Hamilton was only 0.3-0.4 a lap quicker in Canada, throughout all of modern F1 history, that kind of pace advantage likely wouldn't be enough to overtake in Canada.

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Re: Can the 2019 cars race any better than last year's?

Post by Badgeronimous »

Johnson wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
Johnson wrote: Canada has never been an easier overtake track. Its in the bottom half for overtaking.
You didnt ask for an 'easy to overtake track'. :D

Surely Canada must be somewhere in the middle? From past experience it's the sort of track with straights and slow corners where I'd have thought it should be possible among closely matched cars. If it isn't I think there's still a problem..
Tbf, historically the hairpin at Canada was one of the best overtaking oppertunities of the season.
That is going back quite a long way, its been years since somebody has done it there with relatively close cars.

Hamilton was only 0.3-0.4 a lap quicker in Canada, throughout all of modern F1 history, that kind of pace advantage likely wouldn't be enough to overtake in Canada.
The point is a straight, big braking, hairpin, straight, big braking, chicane, straight.

It "should" be easy to slip stream with a small pace advantage. Most other series if you were running close it would give a bloody good chance to make a pass. The corners don't rely heavily on aero, and the rests full throttle or full brakes.

My point is despite this sequence of track and Hamilton (the driver I'd back most of all towards getting a move done if it was on) having a slightly quicker car, he still didn't really get a sniff.

Unless you have a fairly significant pace advantage, it is still very, very hard to even get into a position where you might have a chance to overtake.

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Re: Can the 2019 cars race any better than last year's?

Post by Herb »

Filip wrote:
jimmyj wrote:I too hoped that there would be more actual racing this season. I don't think we are going to see it though. The cars, the tightening up of rules, etc seem to be leading us down a path of blah.
Yeh, they did nice change to 2019 car, we see one of the worst seasons i ever witnessed in any sport.

F1 is dying, hybrid era did it, Merc lobbying did it.

Also thanks Liberty for circuits like Russia, Baku, Freaking ultra pathetic Paul Ricard, etc. They think they sign for some tropical track, and it will promote F1 there, but it doesn`t, provides poor racing which in general losing fan base.
Your outrage is aimed at the wrong people.

Russia and Baku have nothing to do with Liberty they were on the calendar before they bought F1. And Paul Ricard was announced barely after they acquired it.

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tim3003
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Re: Can the 2019 cars race any better than last year's?

Post by tim3003 »

Badgeronimous wrote:
The point is a straight, big braking, hairpin, straight, big braking, chicane, straight.

It "should" be easy to slip stream with a small pace advantage. Most other series if you were running close it would give a bloody good chance to make a pass. The corners don't rely heavily on aero, and the rests full throttle or full brakes.

My point is despite this sequence of track and Hamilton (the driver I'd back most of all towards getting a move done if it was on) having a slightly quicker car, he still didn't really get a sniff.

Unless you have a fairly significant pace advantage, it is still very, very hard to even get into a position where you might have a chance to overtake.
Contrary to my expectations Austria was a good race for overtaking. The combination of DRS straight - slow corner - another DRS straight - another slow corner - just about did the trick. Maybe we need 2 consecutive DRS straights and corners now to make it possible for fairly evenly matched cars...
The next step will probably be DRS 'laps' ...

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