2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

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sandman1347
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by sandman1347 »

Asphalt_World wrote:I really do love how people here think he should have slowed more and turned left at ease when so far, 3 ex F1 drivers on Sky have no idea how he could have avoided coming back on how he did.
I think you're missing the point. If he didn't have control of the car; that's his problem. Others should not be penalized because he lost control of his car. The idea that he is entitled to keep the lead despite running off into the grass seems to be the point of contention here. Sometimes when you run off the circuit, you lose a position.

It's very similar to Verstappen in Japan last year pushing Raikkonen wide after running off into the chicane. He was given a penalty there because he rejoined the track and forced Raikkonen off. He didn't have full control of the car but that's only because he was trying not to lose the position. Same with Vettel. He was focused on keeping the position after going off so he rejoined very quickly and with his foot still on the gas. You don't have some god given right to keep your position when you make a mistake. That's why there is a rule for rejoining the track in the first place.

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TedStriker
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TedStriker »

Lt. Drebin wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:Hamilton: "I forced him into error". What a joke.
Is that not what happened?
Lewis should not rub salt into it, specially as Vettel showed class in asking crowd not to boo him In fact, it was Lewis who asked for penalty. And then, when Vettel approaches and asks, "where should I go", Lewis just answers "eh". Vettel is class, Hamilton is not.
It's not Lewis' place to say where Seb should have gone. He had to brake hard to avoid an accident caused by Seb going off the track, and it's only Seb's unsafe rejoin that kept Seb ahead. Any one of us would be complaining too if we were the driver behind.

Asphalt_World
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Asphalt_World »

Listening to the onboard, there is no hitting the throttle from Vettel on the grass.
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Caserole of Nonsense
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Caserole of Nonsense »

could he have done a little bit more to stay left. Yes possibly, but he is trying to stay ahead which any racing driver would.
did it deserve a penalty. No
Would hamilton have done the same. Yes

If he had made contact with hamilton or forced him into the wall it would have been a penalty.

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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Asphalt_World »

sandman1347 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:I really do love how people here think he should have slowed more and turned left at ease when so far, 3 ex F1 drivers on Sky have no idea how he could have avoided coming back on how he did.
I think you're missing the point. If he didn't have control of the car; that's his problem. Others should not be penalized because he lost control of his car. The idea that he is entitled to keep the lead despite running off into the grass seems to be the point of contention here. Sometimes when you run off the circuit, you lose a position.

It's very similar to Verstappen in Japan last year pushing Raikkonen wide after running off into the chicane. He was given a penalty there because he rejoined the track and forced Raikkonen off. He didn't have full control of the car but that's only because he was trying not to lose the position. Same with Vettel. He was focused on keeping the position after going off so he rejoined very quickly and with his foot still on the gas. You don't have some god given right to keep your position when you make a mistake. That's why there is a rule for rejoining the track in the first place.
The ex F1 drivers saw the whole thing like we did. They've made their choice.
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pokerman
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

Lt. Drebin wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:Hamilton: "I forced him into error". What a joke.
Is that not what happened?
Lewis should not rub salt into it, specially as Vettel showed class in asking crowd not to boo him In fact, it was Lewis who asked for penalty. And then, when Vettel approaches and asks, "where should I go", Lewis just answers "eh". Vettel is class, Hamilton is not.
Well I wouldn't disagree with that.
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Covalent
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Covalent »

Battle Far wrote:Formula Farce

In 50+ years of following the sport I have never seen more a ludicrous manipulation of a race result by desk bound cretins.

3 drivers drove their hearts out for 2 hours ending up less than 6 seconds apart only for the sport to embarrass itself in front of millions on live TV.

It wouldn't of happened under Charlie
Mika Salo who usually is a driver steward wasn't one this weekend and said after the incident no penalty.

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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by BMWSauber84 »

Well there is only one real talking point from that race. In terms of natural justice, that penalty leaves a sour taste in the mouth. I don't think that Vettel really could have rejoined the truck all that differently at that speed.

When this debate blows over and the dust has settled though, I fear we may be talking about another crucial Vettel error in the race costing him dearly. I don't doubt his pure pace as we saw today, yet if he didn't make that error, neither the stewards or Hamilton would have been in any position to take it away from him.

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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by KingVoid »

FormulaFun wrote:
BeOnEdge wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
KingVoid wrote:Hamilton cuts the chicane after defending the inside line from Ricciardo, rejoins the track, and pushes Ricciardo into the wall:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haqpopZyvwc

No penalty x(
Good find, but I don't blame Lewis there either.
He also didn't cut the chicane...
Should have gone to Specsavers mate.

He clearly cut it.

No consistency in this sport
Yeah he does cut but s not a comparable case because he doesn't put ric in the wall upon immediately rejoining so don't see how that can be uaes
Hamilton defends the inside line, cuts the chicane, rejoins ahead, and pushes Ricciardo into the wall.

TheBlackFlag
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheBlackFlag »

Stewards ruined the race for the fans

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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by j man »

Battle Far wrote:Formula Farce

In 50+ years of following the sport I have never seen more a ludicrous manipulation of a race result by desk bound cretins.

3 drivers drove their hearts out for 2 hours ending up less than 6 seconds apart only for the sport to embarrass itself in front of millions on live TV.

It wouldn't of happened under Charlie
Guessing you missed Spa 2008 ;)

BeOnEdge
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by BeOnEdge »

FormulaFun wrote:
BeOnEdge wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
KingVoid wrote:Hamilton cuts the chicane after defending the inside line from Ricciardo, rejoins the track, and pushes Ricciardo into the wall:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haqpopZyvwc

No penalty x(
Good find, but I don't blame Lewis there either.
He also didn't cut the chicane...
Should have gone to Specsavers mate.

He clearly cut it.

No consistency in this sport
Yeah he does cut but s not a comparable case because he doesn't put ric in the wall upon immediately rejoining so don't see how that can be uaes
You just said he didn't cut it?

I guess its okay to cut a chicane and not immediately close someone into a wall... if you wait a couple of seconds, then you can do it.
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frankwer
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by frankwer »

With hydraulic problems and engine problems Hamilton still manages to win, he will collect 10 WDC`s at the end of his career.
Last edited by frankwer on Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

KingVoid
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by KingVoid »

English commentary of this old accident:


FormulaFun
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by FormulaFun »

BeOnEdge wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
BeOnEdge wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Good find, but I don't blame Lewis there either.
He also didn't cut the chicane...
Should have gone to Specsavers mate.

He clearly cut it.

No consistency in this sport
Yeah he does cut but s not a comparable case because he doesn't put ric in the wall upon immediately rejoining so don't see how that can be uaes
You just said he didn't cut it?

I guess its okay to cut a chicane and not immediately close someone into a wall... if you wait a couple of seconds, then you can do it.

I didn't say he didn't cut it...

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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by sandman1347 »

Asphalt_World wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:I really do love how people here think he should have slowed more and turned left at ease when so far, 3 ex F1 drivers on Sky have no idea how he could have avoided coming back on how he did.
I think you're missing the point. If he didn't have control of the car; that's his problem. Others should not be penalized because he lost control of his car. The idea that he is entitled to keep the lead despite running off into the grass seems to be the point of contention here. Sometimes when you run off the circuit, you lose a position.

It's very similar to Verstappen in Japan last year pushing Raikkonen wide after running off into the chicane. He was given a penalty there because he rejoined the track and forced Raikkonen off. He didn't have full control of the car but that's only because he was trying not to lose the position. Same with Vettel. He was focused on keeping the position after going off so he rejoined very quickly and with his foot still on the gas. You don't have some god given right to keep your position when you make a mistake. That's why there is a rule for rejoining the track in the first place.
The ex F1 drivers saw the whole thing like we did. They've made their choice.
An appeal to authority then? What about the ex-F1 driver who was acting as steward and determined that a 5 second penalty was required?

Look, I don't like the fact that the penalty decided the outcome before we had a chance to see the battle unfold either but rather than blaming the stewards or blaming Ferrari or whoever; at what point do people finally blame Sebastian for consistently making costly mistakes in these battles with Lewis?

If Vettel maintained control of his car upon rejoining the track, Hamilton would have passed him right then and there because he didn't go off the track and was much quicker in that moment. So you are really arguing that Vettel should be able to run off the track and then barge back on; squeezing his competition into the wall in order to maintain the lead.

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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

kleefton wrote:It was a slam dunk penalty. You don't rejoin the track in the way of another car. Sorry to all the Vettel supporters, but it is another costly error by Seb. No way around it.
what i don't understand though is that how he was supposed to be in control at that speed... He was still wobbling around when he came back on. His fault for going off in the first place, but i don't know what else he could have done. If he put the breaks on with lack of grip due to going off, he could really easily have spun and smacked into Hamilton. I think this penalty is very very harsh. Hamilton if anything could have seen that Vettel went off and he easily could have been cautious knowing that Vettel may not have control coming back on. But Hamilton was not that cautious there. But Vettel ended up pushing Hamilton off the track in the same way Hamilton did at the first corner in Baku. And I don't see how Vettel could help that. I personally don't understand how it can result in a penalty like this.

Chandhok is going into detail at the moment on sky. All the Hamilton bias Sky seem to have, All of them think this is unfair on Vettel. Chandhok just showed ho vettel was steering right when he was in the middle of the track as his back end was still all over the place. He was clearly trying to save it rather than defend his position. I think that if he lifted or breaked, it will have resulted in a spin.

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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by sidders »

sandman1347 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:I really do love how people here think he should have slowed more and turned left at ease when so far, 3 ex F1 drivers on Sky have no idea how he could have avoided coming back on how he did.
I think you're missing the point. If he didn't have control of the car; that's his problem. Others should not be penalized because he lost control of his car. The idea that he is entitled to keep the lead despite running off into the grass seems to be the point of contention here. Sometimes when you run off the circuit, you lose a position.

It's very similar to Verstappen in Japan last year pushing Raikkonen wide after running off into the chicane. He was given a penalty there because he rejoined the track and forced Raikkonen off. He didn't have full control of the car but that's only because he was trying not to lose the position. Same with Vettel. He was focused on keeping the position after going off so he rejoined very quickly and with his foot still on the gas. You don't have some god given right to keep your position when you make a mistake. That's why there is a rule for rejoining the track in the first place.

Spot on. People really are missing the point. Keep the car on track then there wouldn't be an issue

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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by FormulaFun »

j man wrote:
Battle Far wrote:Formula Farce

In 50+ years of following the sport I have never seen more a ludicrous manipulation of a race result by desk bound cretins.

3 drivers drove their hearts out for 2 hours ending up less than 6 seconds apart only for the sport to embarrass itself in front of millions on live TV.

It wouldn't of happened under Charlie
Guessing you missed Spa 2008 ;)
Also Japan last year was it? Max pushing raikkonen off in a similar incident

BeOnEdge
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by BeOnEdge »

I didn't say he didn't cut it...
Just checked back and no you didn't. My apologies.
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da4an1qu1
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by da4an1qu1 »

So this was the tip of the iceberg for a very dodgy penalty. The problem is that the way the rule is applied encourages drivers and teams to "gamble". That is, does the driver/team take the initiative, and take the, retrospectively, lesser penalty of giving up the position or chance it against a stewards decision.

Having just written that... I'm disappointed for Vettel... but Ferrari should support their driver and take the blame. I guess it's a lesson learnt for all the teams, but from a risk management point of view, once the stewards investigate a 50/50, they should immediately give up the position if it is not too late to do so.

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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Asphalt_World »

I'm getting in the hot tub to cool off. :lol:

Night!
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TedStriker
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TedStriker »

Bottom line is had Seb not lost control he wouldn't have got a penalty. Consider If you divebomb down the inside into a corner and understeer into someone you can't use the defence that once you had locked up you couldn't avoid a crash - you get yourself out of control, you pay the consequences.

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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by BMWSauber84 »

Lt. Drebin wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:Hamilton: "I forced him into error". What a joke.
Is that not what happened?
Lewis should not rub salt into it, specially as Vettel showed class in asking crowd not to boo him In fact, it was Lewis who asked for penalty. And then, when Vettel approaches and asks, "where should I go", Lewis just answers "eh". Vettel is class, Hamilton is not.
Obviously in the car with the adrenaline rushing, a driver in that position will ask the question. Especially when dumb luck has prevented them taking the race lead. That's why stewards watching in screens and analysing data have all the tools they need to make the correct decision....In theory

This time though, they seem to have really got it wrong. I would like to hear the perspective of some other current impartial F1 drivers though. Those that have grown up in the unregulated era.

Those adrenaline highs and lows should also put a stop to any criticism of Sebs post race antics. That level of crushing disappointment is hard to fathom.

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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Altair »

TedStriker wrote:Bottom line is had Seb not lost control he wouldn't have got a penalty. Consider If you divebomb down the inside into a corner and understeer into someone you can't use the defence that once you had locked up you couldn't avoid a crash - you get yourself out of control, you pay the consequences.
And since racers aren't perfect, sometimes things happen in a race and its called a racing incident.

Meh, whatever. Let's watch Mercedes win every race this year. It will only hammer the point that this series is broken.

mikeyg123
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

I get the logic of the penalty by the letter of the law.

But

20 drivers on the grid would have done the same thing as Vettel.

No penalty IMO.

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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by j man »

sandman1347 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:I really do love how people here think he should have slowed more and turned left at ease when so far, 3 ex F1 drivers on Sky have no idea how he could have avoided coming back on how he did.
I think you're missing the point. If he didn't have control of the car; that's his problem. Others should not be penalized because he lost control of his car. The idea that he is entitled to keep the lead despite running off into the grass seems to be the point of contention here. Sometimes when you run off the circuit, you lose a position.

It's very similar to Verstappen in Japan last year pushing Raikkonen wide after running off into the chicane. He was given a penalty there because he rejoined the track and forced Raikkonen off. He didn't have full control of the car but that's only because he was trying not to lose the position. Same with Vettel. He was focused on keeping the position after going off so he rejoined very quickly and with his foot still on the gas. You don't have some god given right to keep your position when you make a mistake. That's why there is a rule for rejoining the track in the first place.
The ex F1 drivers saw the whole thing like we did. They've made their choice.
An appeal to authority then? What about the ex-F1 driver who was acting as steward and determined that a 5 second penalty was required?

Look, I don't like the fact that the penalty decided the outcome before we had a chance to see the battle unfold either but rather than blaming the stewards or blaming Ferrari or whoever; at what point do people finally blame Sebastian for consistently making costly mistakes in these battles with Lewis?

If Vettel maintained control of his car upon rejoining the track, Hamilton would have passed him right then and there because he didn't go off the track and was much quicker in that moment. So you are really arguing that Vettel should be able to run off the track and then barge back on; squeezing his competition into the wall in order to maintain the lead.
I agree with this. Ultimately it's another mistake under pressure by Vettel, and as I said above because of that alone he did not deserve the victory today. The penalty was harsh as it wasn't a deliberate swipe by Vettel, but it did give us what I believe is the correct result in the end.

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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by chetan_rao »

Driver allegiances aside, these chaps can't win either way. Give wishy-washy non-commital answers and get called corporate robots, show a bit of emotion and get called childish.

Human disappointment is the same whoever you are, and everyone actually involved seem to have handled it far better than most keyboard warrior 'fans'.

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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by kleefton »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
kleefton wrote:It was a slam dunk penalty. You don't rejoin the track in the way of another car. Sorry to all the Vettel supporters, but it is another costly error by Seb. No way around it.
what i don't understand though is that how he was supposed to be in control at that speed... He was still wobbling around when he came back on. His fault for going off in the first place, but i don't know what else he could have done. If he put the breaks on with lack of grip due to going off, he could really easily have spun and smacked into Hamilton. I think this penalty is very very harsh. Hamilton if anything could have seen that Vettel went off and he easily could have been cautious knowing that Vettel may not have control coming back on. But Hamilton was not that cautious there. But Vettel ended up pushing Hamilton off the track in the same way Hamilton did at the first corner in Baku. And I don't see how Vettel could help that. I personally don't understand how it can result in a penalty like this.

Chandhok is going into detail at the moment on sky. All the Hamilton bias Sky seem to have, All of them think this is unfair on Vettel. Chandhok just showed ho vettel was steering right when he was in the middle of the track as his back end was still all over the place. He was clearly trying to save it rather than defend his position. I think that if he lifted or breaked, it will have resulted in a spin.
You guys are focusing on what Seb couldn't have done after he made the mistake. And that makes no sense to me. He made the mistake, now his job is to rejoin safely. If he can't do that that's still on him. How is it not? I don't care what all of the Sky people are saying because I understand that people are getting bored of Mercedes and Hamilton winning all the time. I understand it. I felt the same during the Vettel era. But you've got to be able to see black and white and I can see that now very few people can. The thing is that the stewards applied the rule as they should, it doesn't matter if they didn't apply it in Monaco 2017, which imo they would have been well entitled to. It was a slam dunk penalty. Shame it had to come to that, but it is done.

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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by IDrinkYourMilkshake »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGzDkb3UW0w

What Hamilton did to Ricciardo here in 2016 was much worse, he squeezed him While being in control, while Seb was still in a slide and applying opposite lock. There is no logical consistency in this sport. It's pathetic.

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F1nut
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by F1nut »

Clearly the F1 racing stewards in Canada cannot tell the difference between a "racing-incident" and a deliberate action - for which the "Un-safe re-entry rule" was enacted............ : (

Sad day for F1 fans everywhere.
Last edited by F1nut on Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Lojik »

IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGzDkb3UW0w

What Hamilton did to Ricciardo here in 2016 was much worse,
What, you mean leaving him a cars width of space?

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TedStriker
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TedStriker »

Will be interesting to read the official ruling. I think we can all agree on that.

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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by greatestF1mindever »

So HAmilton "forced" Seb to make a mistake.....how many times did Hamilton not lock-up in the hairpin? Are those not mistakes Hamilton made during the race?
Last edited by greatestF1mindever on Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TedStriker »

F1nut wrote:Clearly the F1 racing stewards in Canada cannot tell the difference between a "racing-incident" and a deliberate action - for which the "Un-safe re-entry rule" was enacted............ : (

Sad day for F1 fans everywhere.
Does the penalty require intent? Genuine question.

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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by JN23 »

I know the penalty is the big talking point and understandably so but the rest... where was Bottas' pace for most of the race?

Great weekend for Renault, did not expect this to be a strong track for them. A disappointing day for Mclaren as they had a good car this weekend.

Gasly :thumbdown:

A great job by Stroll to get into the points. His one lap pace is bad but he is good at looking after the tyres and that showed today.

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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by IDrinkYourMilkshake »

Lojik wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGzDkb3UW0w

What Hamilton did to Ricciardo here in 2016 was much worse,
What, you mean leaving him a cars width of space?
Yeah, he totally left him a cars width while squeezing Ricciardo into the wall, who then had to brake and raise his hand in anger :uhoh:

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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by sandman1347 »

TedStriker wrote:Will be interesting to read the official ruling. I think we can all agree on that.
It won't matter. 95% of F1 fans are incapable of looking at things impartially. Most of the backlash is motivated by the fact that Hamilton and Mercedes have been winning so much and a lot of fans want that to end. If the roles were reversed and Hamilton were given that penalty for doing the same thing; the same people complaining right now would be supportive of the penalty.

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bourbon19
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by bourbon19 »

TheBlackFlag wrote:Stewards ruined the race for the fans
That's the bottom line. Hamilton was getting closer and closer, first time we had a heart stopping race in ages between these two. And then right when it all was going to come to a head, they put the brakes on with a controversial call - you could argue deserves a penalty, but also, and just as fairly argue that it does not deserve a penalty. But they chose to go with the penalty, in this particular situation, 2 lead drivers, in the lead teams, for the lead of the race. The race ended at that moment.

You can't ask for a poorer decision. This is fundamentally the problem. This is what makes it a ridiculous and ignorant call by the stewards and bad for the sport.
sandman1347 wrote:
TedStriker wrote:Will be interesting to read the official ruling. I think we can all agree on that.
It won't matter. 95% of F1 fans are incapable of looking at things impartially. Most of the backlash is motivated by the fact that Hamilton and Mercedes have been winning so much and a lot of fans want that to end. If the roles were reversed and Hamilton were given that penalty for doing the same thing; the same people complaining right now would be supportive of the penalty.
haha, well I remember 2010-2013 all too well to disagree with this in general. But what I wrote above does explain why incidents like this fall outside of that general idea. Mercedes dominating should not mean bringing a genuine race for the lead to a halt. First, we get so few of those and second, the call was too controversial (even Lewis and Toto have admitted as much) to warrant stopping the action for it. Hamilton might have won anyway with a crazy pass on Vettel near the end of the race. You can't tell me you would not have preferred that?
Last edited by bourbon19 on Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Invade »

greatestF1mindever wrote:So HAmilton "forced" Seb to make a mistake.....how many times did Hamilton not lock-up in the hairpin? Are those not mistakes Hamilton made during the race?
Both were driving on the limit. Mistakes were made. If positions were reversed we can't assume Hamilton would keep locking up in the hairpin whilst defending position instead of chasing position, nor that Vettel would have made a similar mistake as he did as the chasing driver. I'd say the significant and dangerous mistake was Vettel's, which could have ended up far worse as he was eager to still drive through his error to maintain position. He succeeded in his attempt to drive through his error and held onto position. Ultimately, I do not think the penalty should have been applied.

Locked