How can a small team catch up?
Personally I believe there's enough money in each team, specially those that have not got the prize money to shift direction.
Am I wrong here?..... Just a thought

.Zoue wrote:There's a valid argument to keep the rules as they are and this may lead to convergence eventually.
But... it's also highly unlikely that the current rules will ever allow the manufacturers to be challenged. Agree that minor changes would't affect that and would be largely pointless. Depends how genuine they are about wanting to improve things
yeah I'm inclined to agree. There may be a little more convergence within each "division," but the pecking order doesn't really changemikeyg123 wrote:The convergence theory is the biggest myth going.
2009-2013 - Almost the entire 2009 grid would fit into the gap between Vettel and everyone else by the end of 2013.
2005-2008 - Competitiveness about the same.
1998-2004 - McLaren vs Ferrari in 98. Nobody near Ferrari in 04.
Convergence never happens. The have's just accelerate away from the have not's.
And it makes sense really. Ferrari and Mercedes can afford 500+ top engineers on the factory floor. The smaller teams have way less than that, I remember Manor had something like 250 personnel or so.Zoue wrote:yeah I'm inclined to agree. There may be a little more convergence within each "division," but the pecking order doesn't really changemikeyg123 wrote:The convergence theory is the biggest myth going.
2009-2013 - Almost the entire 2009 grid would fit into the gap between Vettel and everyone else by the end of 2013.
2005-2008 - Competitiveness about the same.
1998-2004 - McLaren vs Ferrari in 98. Nobody near Ferrari in 04.
Convergence never happens. The have's just accelerate away from the have not's.
Budget caps.Siao7 wrote:And it makes sense really. Ferrari and Mercedes can afford 500+ top engineers on the factory floor. The smaller teams have way less than that, I remember Manor had something like 250 personnel or so.Zoue wrote:yeah I'm inclined to agree. There may be a little more convergence within each "division," but the pecking order doesn't really changemikeyg123 wrote:The convergence theory is the biggest myth going.
2009-2013 - Almost the entire 2009 grid would fit into the gap between Vettel and everyone else by the end of 2013.
2005-2008 - Competitiveness about the same.
1998-2004 - McLaren vs Ferrari in 98. Nobody near Ferrari in 04.
Convergence never happens. The have's just accelerate away from the have not's.
So no matter how much you equalise the rules, they will probably not catch up as fast as the big teams. Or if you want, the big teams will pull away much faster with the development race. And this is not something that F1 can easily fix, can they force them to hire more and better engineers? Re-distributing the money pot is one thing towards that, but I'm afraid it will not just solve this by itself.
Then again Williams has a similar number of employees as the big teams and they are not really setting the world on fire...
They need to disincentivise the big teams from spending that much. A budget cap is a solution but call me cynical but I believe the manufacturers will find ways to bury research in some other division and will circumvent this. There will always be some inequality but that in itself isn't terrible it's just the way things are at the moment the bigger teams have a built-in advantage that only grows the more restrictions they put on things.Siao7 wrote:And it makes sense really. Ferrari and Mercedes can afford 500+ top engineers on the factory floor. The smaller teams have way less than that, I remember Manor had something like 250 personnel or so.Zoue wrote:yeah I'm inclined to agree. There may be a little more convergence within each "division," but the pecking order doesn't really changemikeyg123 wrote:The convergence theory is the biggest myth going.
2009-2013 - Almost the entire 2009 grid would fit into the gap between Vettel and everyone else by the end of 2013.
2005-2008 - Competitiveness about the same.
1998-2004 - McLaren vs Ferrari in 98. Nobody near Ferrari in 04.
Convergence never happens. The have's just accelerate away from the have not's.
So no matter how much you equalise the rules, they will probably not catch up as fast as the big teams. Or if you want, the big teams will pull away much faster with the development race. And this is not something that F1 can easily fix, can they force them to hire more and better engineers? Re-distributing the money pot is one thing towards that, but I'm afraid it will not just solve this by itself.
Then again Williams has a similar number of employees as the big teams and they are not really setting the world on fire...
Oh yeah, they were contemplating the budget caps for 2021, weren't they? It seems that it will only affect the big teams and the driver salaries would be separate.mikeyg123 wrote:Budget caps.Siao7 wrote:And it makes sense really. Ferrari and Mercedes can afford 500+ top engineers on the factory floor. The smaller teams have way less than that, I remember Manor had something like 250 personnel or so.Zoue wrote:yeah I'm inclined to agree. There may be a little more convergence within each "division," but the pecking order doesn't really changemikeyg123 wrote:The convergence theory is the biggest myth going.
2009-2013 - Almost the entire 2009 grid would fit into the gap between Vettel and everyone else by the end of 2013.
2005-2008 - Competitiveness about the same.
1998-2004 - McLaren vs Ferrari in 98. Nobody near Ferrari in 04.
Convergence never happens. The have's just accelerate away from the have not's.
So no matter how much you equalise the rules, they will probably not catch up as fast as the big teams. Or if you want, the big teams will pull away much faster with the development race. And this is not something that F1 can easily fix, can they force them to hire more and better engineers? Re-distributing the money pot is one thing towards that, but I'm afraid it will not just solve this by itself.
Then again Williams has a similar number of employees as the big teams and they are not really setting the world on fire...
Yeah, I agree, policing it will be the major issue from then onZoue wrote:They need to disincentivise the big teams from spending that much. A budget cap is a solution but call me cynical but I believe the manufacturers will find ways to bury research in some other division and will circumvent this. There will always be some inequality but that in itself isn't terrible it's just the way things are at the moment the bigger teams have a built-in advantage that only grows the more restrictions they put on things.Siao7 wrote:And it makes sense really. Ferrari and Mercedes can afford 500+ top engineers on the factory floor. The smaller teams have way less than that, I remember Manor had something like 250 personnel or so.Zoue wrote:yeah I'm inclined to agree. There may be a little more convergence within each "division," but the pecking order doesn't really changemikeyg123 wrote:The convergence theory is the biggest myth going.
2009-2013 - Almost the entire 2009 grid would fit into the gap between Vettel and everyone else by the end of 2013.
2005-2008 - Competitiveness about the same.
1998-2004 - McLaren vs Ferrari in 98. Nobody near Ferrari in 04.
Convergence never happens. The have's just accelerate away from the have not's.
So no matter how much you equalise the rules, they will probably not catch up as fast as the big teams. Or if you want, the big teams will pull away much faster with the development race. And this is not something that F1 can easily fix, can they force them to hire more and better engineers? Re-distributing the money pot is one thing towards that, but I'm afraid it will not just solve this by itself.
Then again Williams has a similar number of employees as the big teams and they are not really setting the world on fire...
The driver salaries should be separate.Siao7 wrote:Oh yeah, they were contemplating the budget caps for 2021, weren't they? It seems that it will only affect the big teams and the driver salaries would be separate.mikeyg123 wrote:Budget caps.Siao7 wrote:And it makes sense really. Ferrari and Mercedes can afford 500+ top engineers on the factory floor. The smaller teams have way less than that, I remember Manor had something like 250 personnel or so.Zoue wrote:yeah I'm inclined to agree. There may be a little more convergence within each "division," but the pecking order doesn't really changemikeyg123 wrote:The convergence theory is the biggest myth going.
2009-2013 - Almost the entire 2009 grid would fit into the gap between Vettel and everyone else by the end of 2013.
2005-2008 - Competitiveness about the same.
1998-2004 - McLaren vs Ferrari in 98. Nobody near Ferrari in 04.
Convergence never happens. The have's just accelerate away from the have not's.
So no matter how much you equalise the rules, they will probably not catch up as fast as the big teams. Or if you want, the big teams will pull away much faster with the development race. And this is not something that F1 can easily fix, can they force them to hire more and better engineers? Re-distributing the money pot is one thing towards that, but I'm afraid it will not just solve this by itself.
Then again Williams has a similar number of employees as the big teams and they are not really setting the world on fire...
Honda didn't do too badly to be fair. They built a car capable of dominating for 2009. and before 2007 they looked OK as well.F1 Racer wrote:Why did Honda and Toyota do so badly when they were serious manufacturer teams? Was it just a logistical thing being based in Japan?
This 'manufacturers are guaranteed to beat the other teams' idea seems to have been a relatively recent notion, albeit I do worry that it is still true nowadays even if it didn't used to be, (i.e. look at Ferrari between 1980 and 1996).
Toyota had an enormous budget, their own private track, good solid drivers like Trulli and Ralf. It was a fairy tale, that somehow didn't work out. They pulled out after they got hit by the financial crisis in 2009, otherwise they'd still be there. They never managed a win, but had some 2nd and 3rd places pretty much on merit. I do remember them being dragged into a scandal when one year their cars were strikingly similar to the Ferraris, but I don't remember the outcomemikeyg123 wrote:Honda didn't do too badly to be fair. They built a car capable of dominating for 2009. and before 2007 they looked OK as well.F1 Racer wrote:Why did Honda and Toyota do so badly when they were serious manufacturer teams? Was it just a logistical thing being based in Japan?
This 'manufacturers are guaranteed to beat the other teams' idea seems to have been a relatively recent notion, albeit I do worry that it is still true nowadays even if it didn't used to be, (i.e. look at Ferrari between 1980 and 1996).
Even Toyota had their moments. Both competed at a time when there were 8 or so teams aiming to win races and they can't all succeed in that all the time.
The 2005 car was a good one. With a top driver instead of 2 good ones I htink that car could've taken a championship run.Siao7 wrote:Toyota had an enormous budget, their own private track, good solid drivers like Trulli and Ralf. It was a fairy tale, that somehow didn't work out. They pulled out after they got hit by the financial crisis in 2009, otherwise they'd still be there. They never managed a win, but had some 2nd and 3rd places pretty much on merit. I do remember them being dragged into a scandal when one year their cars were strikingly similar to the Ferraris, but I don't remember the outcomemikeyg123 wrote:Honda didn't do too badly to be fair. They built a car capable of dominating for 2009. and before 2007 they looked OK as well.F1 Racer wrote:Why did Honda and Toyota do so badly when they were serious manufacturer teams? Was it just a logistical thing being based in Japan?
This 'manufacturers are guaranteed to beat the other teams' idea seems to have been a relatively recent notion, albeit I do worry that it is still true nowadays even if it didn't used to be, (i.e. look at Ferrari between 1980 and 1996).
Even Toyota had their moments. Both competed at a time when there were 8 or so teams aiming to win races and they can't all succeed in that all the time.
Well, with Ferrari out of the picture, they'd have Alonso and the flying Renault to compete, it would be a tall order in my opinion. Only Schumi Sr. from that grid could have done that in my view, but that would be impossible. Maybe Rubens or Montoya could have faired better than the Toyota duo that year, but not to the extent that they'd seriously challenge for the WDCmikeyg123 wrote:The 2005 car was a good one. With a top driver instead of 2 good ones I htink that car could've taken a championship run.Siao7 wrote:Toyota had an enormous budget, their own private track, good solid drivers like Trulli and Ralf. It was a fairy tale, that somehow didn't work out. They pulled out after they got hit by the financial crisis in 2009, otherwise they'd still be there. They never managed a win, but had some 2nd and 3rd places pretty much on merit. I do remember them being dragged into a scandal when one year their cars were strikingly similar to the Ferraris, but I don't remember the outcomemikeyg123 wrote:Honda didn't do too badly to be fair. They built a car capable of dominating for 2009. and before 2007 they looked OK as well.F1 Racer wrote:Why did Honda and Toyota do so badly when they were serious manufacturer teams? Was it just a logistical thing being based in Japan?
This 'manufacturers are guaranteed to beat the other teams' idea seems to have been a relatively recent notion, albeit I do worry that it is still true nowadays even if it didn't used to be, (i.e. look at Ferrari between 1980 and 1996).
Even Toyota had their moments. Both competed at a time when there were 8 or so teams aiming to win races and they can't all succeed in that all the time.
Schumacher or Alonso could've given it a go. I'm not saying they could get those drivers. I'm just saying I think the car could've been close to the Renault in performance.Siao7 wrote:Well, with Ferrari out of the picture, they'd have Alonso and the flying Renault to compete, it would be a tall order in my opinion. Only Schumi Sr. from that grid could have done that in my view, but that would be impossible. Maybe Rubens or Montoya could have faired better than the Toyota duo that year, but not to the extent that they'd seriously challenge for the WDCmikeyg123 wrote:The 2005 car was a good one. With a top driver instead of 2 good ones I htink that car could've taken a championship run.Siao7 wrote:Toyota had an enormous budget, their own private track, good solid drivers like Trulli and Ralf. It was a fairy tale, that somehow didn't work out. They pulled out after they got hit by the financial crisis in 2009, otherwise they'd still be there. They never managed a win, but had some 2nd and 3rd places pretty much on merit. I do remember them being dragged into a scandal when one year their cars were strikingly similar to the Ferraris, but I don't remember the outcomemikeyg123 wrote:Honda didn't do too badly to be fair. They built a car capable of dominating for 2009. and before 2007 they looked OK as well.F1 Racer wrote:Why did Honda and Toyota do so badly when they were serious manufacturer teams? Was it just a logistical thing being based in Japan?
This 'manufacturers are guaranteed to beat the other teams' idea seems to have been a relatively recent notion, albeit I do worry that it is still true nowadays even if it didn't used to be, (i.e. look at Ferrari between 1980 and 1996).
Even Toyota had their moments. Both competed at a time when there were 8 or so teams aiming to win races and they can't all succeed in that all the time.
Ok got you, yeah I agree.mikeyg123 wrote:Schumacher or Alonso could've given it a go. I'm not saying they could get those drivers. I'm just saying I think the car could've been close to the Renault in performance.Siao7 wrote:Well, with Ferrari out of the picture, they'd have Alonso and the flying Renault to compete, it would be a tall order in my opinion. Only Schumi Sr. from that grid could have done that in my view, but that would be impossible. Maybe Rubens or Montoya could have faired better than the Toyota duo that year, but not to the extent that they'd seriously challenge for the WDCmikeyg123 wrote:The 2005 car was a good one. With a top driver instead of 2 good ones I htink that car could've taken a championship run.Siao7 wrote:Toyota had an enormous budget, their own private track, good solid drivers like Trulli and Ralf. It was a fairy tale, that somehow didn't work out. They pulled out after they got hit by the financial crisis in 2009, otherwise they'd still be there. They never managed a win, but had some 2nd and 3rd places pretty much on merit. I do remember them being dragged into a scandal when one year their cars were strikingly similar to the Ferraris, but I don't remember the outcomemikeyg123 wrote:
Honda didn't do too badly to be fair. They built a car capable of dominating for 2009. and before 2007 they looked OK as well.
Even Toyota had their moments. Both competed at a time when there were 8 or so teams aiming to win races and they can't all succeed in that all the time.
Unfortunately you can't just change the rules drastically because the teams are the ones that cover the costs. Scrap the rule book and you'll have the high spenders putting out the best possible cars using any means necessary. Every new tech idea will be copied by other teams.AravJ wrote:Rule changes will only work if teams stop making the rules. Rule changes should be completely in dependant.
Otherwise just leave it, then we at least have the hope of convergence.
It would be interesting to actually answer those questions and comparisons objectively, without any (arguably) rose tinted perspective.Badgeronimous wrote:I still think the cars are too easy to drive on race day, and not taken close enough to their limit.
When was the last time a front runner retired due to a mistake that didn't involve:-
1) Contact with another car
2) Botched overtake/Defence
3) Weather (ie like Vettel last year. Small error big consequence... but that can happen almost at random when the track goes into the grey area between slicks and inters)
Genuinely, when was the last time a front runner (that isn't called Max)made a mistake, all on his own, that ended his race?
You rarely see it happen further down the grid too.
How often does the wall of champions claim a victim compared to times gone by, same with monaco.
According to Newey, merc's aero (or engineering) team is twice that of Red Bull. That's a huge budget difference. Merc also has many top designers/engineers in their squad, RBR only has one.kowen1208 wrote:I think rule changes should be bigger, more frequent, and be set without team input. Also, I don't think money is half as big of a factor as many others seem to think it is. Ferrari and Redbull haven't really been able to touch Mercedes the last several years even with their massive budgets. Williams is also a great example of how money doesn't buy performance; they went from 3rd in 2014 to dead last lately despite the bigger payout for their performance AND a historical payment. Besides that, tracking team spending seems like it would be an absolute nightmare, and I'm sure the teams will find ways to spend massive amounts of money under the radar.
The only deficit Newey & Co are experiencing is the fact that some of the key people who worked with his Aero unit have been hired away to opposing teams. Red Bull has a rather illustrious budget. Below is a list of budgets for 2018.ReservoirDog wrote:According to Newey, merc's aero (or engineering) team is twice that of Red Bull. That's a huge budget difference. Merc also has many top designers/engineers in their squad, RBR only has one.kowen1208 wrote:I think rule changes should be bigger, more frequent, and be set without team input. Also, I don't think money is half as big of a factor as many others seem to think it is. Ferrari and Redbull haven't really been able to touch Mercedes the last several years even with their massive budgets. Williams is also a great example of how money doesn't buy performance; they went from 3rd in 2014 to dead last lately despite the bigger payout for their performance AND a historical payment. Besides that, tracking team spending seems like it would be an absolute nightmare, and I'm sure the teams will find ways to spend massive amounts of money under the radar.
I brought this up in another thread a while ago. RBR's problem is that they simply aren't hiring people in top positions in chassis/aero dept. Compare that with Mercedes and it's night and day.F1 MERCENARY wrote:The biggest change needed is to ease regulations considerably so that engineers have more freedom to design new systems that afford them a performance advantage, so long as it all falls within a specified wheelbase and maximum width.
Doing so will afford teams greater opportunities to come up with designs that will allow their cars to run further up the order. As well a return to some form of ground effects would allow for better racing because cars would be able to follow closer together without suffering from nearly as much washout as we currently see, and drivers can take different lines without worrying about losing it.
The only deficit Newey & Co are experiencing is the fact that some of the key people who worked with his Aero unit have been hired away to opposing teams. Red Bull has a rather illustrious budget. Below is a list of budgets for 2018.ReservoirDog wrote:According to Newey, merc's aero (or engineering) team is twice that of Red Bull. That's a huge budget difference. Merc also has many top designers/engineers in their squad, RBR only has one.kowen1208 wrote:I think rule changes should be bigger, more frequent, and be set without team input. Also, I don't think money is half as big of a factor as many others seem to think it is. Ferrari and Redbull haven't really been able to touch Mercedes the last several years even with their massive budgets. Williams is also a great example of how money doesn't buy performance; they went from 3rd in 2014 to dead last lately despite the bigger payout for their performance AND a historical payment. Besides that, tracking team spending seems like it would be an absolute nightmare, and I'm sure the teams will find ways to spend massive amounts of money under the radar.
Mercedes……………€450 million
Ferrari……………….€430 million
Red Bull……………..€350 million
McLaren……………..€250 million
Renault………………€200 million
Sauber……………….€135 million
Williams……………..€135 million
Toro Rosso………….€125 million
Haas………………….€110 million
Force India………….€110 million
May I ask how do we know that?ReservoirDog wrote:I brought this up in another thread a while ago. RBR's problem is that they simply aren't hiring people in top positions in chassis/aero dept. Compare that with Mercedes and it's night and day.F1 MERCENARY wrote:The biggest change needed is to ease regulations considerably so that engineers have more freedom to design new systems that afford them a performance advantage, so long as it all falls within a specified wheelbase and maximum width.
Doing so will afford teams greater opportunities to come up with designs that will allow their cars to run further up the order. As well a return to some form of ground effects would allow for better racing because cars would be able to follow closer together without suffering from nearly as much washout as we currently see, and drivers can take different lines without worrying about losing it.
The only deficit Newey & Co are experiencing is the fact that some of the key people who worked with his Aero unit have been hired away to opposing teams. Red Bull has a rather illustrious budget. Below is a list of budgets for 2018.ReservoirDog wrote:According to Newey, merc's aero (or engineering) team is twice that of Red Bull. That's a huge budget difference. Merc also has many top designers/engineers in their squad, RBR only has one.kowen1208 wrote:I think rule changes should be bigger, more frequent, and be set without team input. Also, I don't think money is half as big of a factor as many others seem to think it is. Ferrari and Redbull haven't really been able to touch Mercedes the last several years even with their massive budgets. Williams is also a great example of how money doesn't buy performance; they went from 3rd in 2014 to dead last lately despite the bigger payout for their performance AND a historical payment. Besides that, tracking team spending seems like it would be an absolute nightmare, and I'm sure the teams will find ways to spend massive amounts of money under the radar.
Mercedes……………€450 million
Ferrari……………….€430 million
Red Bull……………..€350 million
McLaren……………..€250 million
Renault………………€200 million
Sauber……………….€135 million
Williams……………..€135 million
Toro Rosso………….€125 million
Haas………………….€110 million
Force India………….€110 million
RBR always starts the season on the back foot and slowly improve. That schtick simply doesn't work in modern F1 where Mercedes are at the top on their game right out the gates. And not just that, Mercedes are also the best at improving through the season. It's impossible for RBR to challenge Mercedes. I smile at people who think they have a chance.
Name the last 3 major hires by RBR? Whenever it happens with any team, it's news. Paddy Lowe to Williams (he turned out to be a dud, but that's a different point), James Allison to Merc. One of RBR guys that McLaren poached, the name escapes me. Renault also hired some highly reputed engineer recently.Siao7 wrote:May I ask how do we know that?ReservoirDog wrote:I brought this up in another thread a while ago. RBR's problem is that they simply aren't hiring people in top positions in chassis/aero dept. Compare that with Mercedes and it's night and day.F1 MERCENARY wrote:The biggest change needed is to ease regulations considerably so that engineers have more freedom to design new systems that afford them a performance advantage, so long as it all falls within a specified wheelbase and maximum width.
Doing so will afford teams greater opportunities to come up with designs that will allow their cars to run further up the order. As well a return to some form of ground effects would allow for better racing because cars would be able to follow closer together without suffering from nearly as much washout as we currently see, and drivers can take different lines without worrying about losing it.
The only deficit Newey & Co are experiencing is the fact that some of the key people who worked with his Aero unit have been hired away to opposing teams. Red Bull has a rather illustrious budget. Below is a list of budgets for 2018.ReservoirDog wrote:According to Newey, merc's aero (or engineering) team is twice that of Red Bull. That's a huge budget difference. Merc also has many top designers/engineers in their squad, RBR only has one.kowen1208 wrote:I think rule changes should be bigger, more frequent, and be set without team input. Also, I don't think money is half as big of a factor as many others seem to think it is. Ferrari and Redbull haven't really been able to touch Mercedes the last several years even with their massive budgets. Williams is also a great example of how money doesn't buy performance; they went from 3rd in 2014 to dead last lately despite the bigger payout for their performance AND a historical payment. Besides that, tracking team spending seems like it would be an absolute nightmare, and I'm sure the teams will find ways to spend massive amounts of money under the radar.
Mercedes……………€450 million
Ferrari……………….€430 million
Red Bull……………..€350 million
McLaren……………..€250 million
Renault………………€200 million
Sauber……………….€135 million
Williams……………..€135 million
Toro Rosso………….€125 million
Haas………………….€110 million
Force India………….€110 million
RBR always starts the season on the back foot and slowly improve. That schtick simply doesn't work in modern F1 where Mercedes are at the top on their game right out the gates. And not just that, Mercedes are also the best at improving through the season. It's impossible for RBR to challenge Mercedes. I smile at people who think they have a chance.
- Merc were good before Allison went there so I don't that much of a differenceReservoirDog wrote:Name the last 3 major hires by RBR? Whenever it happens with any team, it's news. Paddy Lowe to Williams (he turned out to be a dud, but that's a different point), James Allison to Merc. One of RBR guys that McLaren poached, the name escapes me. Renault also hired some highly reputed engineer recently.
v@sh wrote:- Merc were good before Allison went there so I don't that much of a differenceReservoirDog wrote:Name the last 3 major hires by RBR? Whenever it happens with any team, it's news. Paddy Lowe to Williams (he turned out to be a dud, but that's a different point), James Allison to Merc. One of RBR guys that McLaren poached, the name escapes me. Renault also hired some highly reputed engineer recently.
- James Key was poached by McLaren, but how much impact did he actually have on this years car? Pedromou or however you spell it was also poached by Mclaren from RBR because of when RBR won championships etc. and he hasn't made much difference since
- Renault hired Budwoski who was part of the FIA but he is no designer, he has access to how other teams have specific designs but may be outdated now. They Nick Chester designing the car so meh
- Williams shows with Paddy Lowe that a highly reputed engineer does not mean instant results
RBR have been fine without full-time Newey, new regs and they will eventually get on top of it. Like they did in 2015 and like they did last year when they had arguably the best chassis. Even Newey in his time made duds.
Reputable engineers are all hype, sure it helps to have a good one but IMO it is more the collective than one sole engineer/designer these days.
The air will always be turbulent behind the air, how do you define the level of turbulence in a black and white way?sandman1347 wrote:This post is not exactly related to BoP but more of an overtaking thing. One thing that I've often thought is that they are regulating the wrong things. Essentially they have determined why it is so difficult to follow another car (the dirty air that comes off the back of the car). The crackdown on front wing design for this year was intended to dramatically reduce that. Of course the problem is that F1 engineers are really smart and so they have used the bargeboards and other areas to create that outwash that they used to create with the front wing.
I often find myself asking; why don't they regulate outwash itself? I mean literally why not have an FIA wind tunnel and regulations that all cars must produce clean air off of their rear? A little more on the nose, don't you think. Instead of trying to outsmart a bunch of people who you will never outsmart; why not give them no way out?
ReservoirDog wrote:Your reply is irrelevant to my post, and also highly inaccurate on top of that.v@sh wrote:- Merc were good before Allison went there so I don't that much of a differenceReservoirDog wrote:Name the last 3 major hires by RBR? Whenever it happens with any team, it's news. Paddy Lowe to Williams (he turned out to be a dud, but that's a different point), James Allison to Merc. One of RBR guys that McLaren poached, the name escapes me. Renault also hired some highly reputed engineer recently.
- James Key was poached by McLaren, but how much impact did he actually have on this years car? Pedromou or however you spell it was also poached by Mclaren from RBR because of when RBR won championships etc. and he hasn't made much difference since
- Renault hired Budwoski who was part of the FIA but he is no designer, he has access to how other teams have specific designs but may be outdated now. They Nick Chester designing the car so meh
- Williams shows with Paddy Lowe that a highly reputed engineer does not mean instant results
RBR have been fine without full-time Newey, new regs and they will eventually get on top of it. Like they did in 2015 and like they did last year when they had arguably the best chassis. Even Newey in his time made duds.
Reputable engineers are all hype, sure it helps to have a good one but IMO it is more the collective than one sole engineer/designer these days.
These teams have hundreds of people working for them these days. It is the talent of those people who really make the difference, not the illustrious name at the top of the org chart.v@sh wrote:Reputable engineers are all hype, sure it helps to have a good one but IMO it is more the collective than one sole engineer/designer these days.
It's more about defining what is not allowed; like creating a certain level of outwash. I think it's doable with a bit of brain power. This way; whatever the engineers come up with; it won't lead to it being harder to follow the car in front (like pretty much everything they come up with now).ReservoirDog wrote:The air will always be turbulent behind the air, how do you define the level of turbulence in a black and white way?sandman1347 wrote:This post is not exactly related to BoP but more of an overtaking thing. One thing that I've often thought is that they are regulating the wrong things. Essentially they have determined why it is so difficult to follow another car (the dirty air that comes off the back of the car). The crackdown on front wing design for this year was intended to dramatically reduce that. Of course the problem is that F1 engineers are really smart and so they have used the bargeboards and other areas to create that outwash that they used to create with the front wing.
I often find myself asking; why don't they regulate outwash itself? I mean literally why not have an FIA wind tunnel and regulations that all cars must produce clean air off of their rear? A little more on the nose, don't you think. Instead of trying to outsmart a bunch of people who you will never outsmart; why not give them no way out?