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Exediron wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:I think Ocon has a very outside chance of Red Bull if he can sever ties with Mercedes.

Wouldn't this be hurt somewhat by the fact that he and Verstappen pretty much hate each other? That seems like a move designed to create a toxic team environment.

Oh yeah Brazil. Ocon probably isn't a popular guy at Red Bull in general

mikeyg123 wrote:Personally, I think Toto wants to hire Ocon.

I'd actually say the opposite, that if it was purely down to his personal opinion, he'd keep Bottas. He's had a much larger role in Bottas' career than he has Ocon's.

sandman1347 wrote:

spiritone wrote:I repeat, ocon to haas, russell to merc, and bottas to renault. Latifi to williams and hulk to red bull. Should be an american driver in F1,Herta, with Haas.. The only way that seems possible is if daddy buys a team.

I kind of like this but I struggle to imagine Bottas being let go. It would just be too hard to justify that. It would be amazing to see Russell get that opportunity though. I'd also be interested in seeing Valteri vs. Daniel. Kind of a way to connect the dots with some of our unscientific driver comparisons.

Unscientific as opposed to none scientific personal opinion?

Jenson's Understeer wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:Personally, I think Toto wants to hire Ocon.

I'd actually say the opposite, that if it was purely down to his personal opinion, he'd keep Bottas. He's had a much larger role in Bottas' career than he has Ocon's.

Are you sure about that?

pokerman wrote:

Jenson's Understeer wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:Personally, I think Toto wants to hire Ocon.

I'd actually say the opposite, that if it was purely down to his personal opinion, he'd keep Bottas. He's had a much larger role in Bottas' career than he has Ocon's.

Are you sure about that?

Erm, yes? Have you forgotten that he was part of Valtteri's management team, the same management team that helped get him affiliated with an F1 team in the first place? And that that happened barely two months after Toto first bought shares in Williams?

Obviously he wants Ocon to succeed as well, and I'm sure in an ideal world he'd find a way to give both of them a race seat at Mercedes. But his personal investment in Bottas is a lot stronger.

Jenson's Understeer wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Jenson's Understeer wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:Personally, I think Toto wants to hire Ocon.

I'd actually say the opposite, that if it was purely down to his personal opinion, he'd keep Bottas. He's had a much larger role in Bottas' career than he has Ocon's.

Are you sure about that?

Erm, yes? Have you forgotten that he was part of Valtteri's management team, the same management team that helped get him affiliated with an F1 team in the first place? And that that happened barely two months after Toto first bought shares in Williams?

Obviously he wants Ocon to succeed as well, and I'm sure in an ideal world he'd find a way to give both of them a race seat at Mercedes. But his personal investment in Bottas is a lot stronger.

I heard he stepped back from managing Bottas when he joined Mercedes citing conflict of interest whereas he's been managing Ocon since 2014.

According to Eddie Jordan on C4:

Vettel to retire
Hamilton to Ferrari
Verstappen to Mercedes

Option or Prime wrote:According to Eddie Jordan on C4:

Vettel to retire
Hamilton to Ferrari
Verstappen to Mercedes

I'm not sure but this could be his craziest one yet

Option or Prime wrote:According to Eddie Jordan on C4:

Vettel to retire
Hamilton to Ferrari
Verstappen to Mercedes

And what's that, some wild hunch of his?

Invade wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:According to Eddie Jordan on C4:

Vettel to retire
Hamilton to Ferrari
Verstappen to Mercedes

And what's that, some wild hunch of his?

I'm pretty sure he joked that he made it all up after he said this?

No idea really, he said he had a feeling so probably you are right, Hamilton want might end up at Ferrari after he has broken all records at Mercedes say in 3 years time. Leclerc would be well established by then though.

Vettel might well retire but thats no real surprise to many, the 'revenge ram' is his red mist issue again. Even he must be a bit worried about that.

He did break some news though, that David Coulthard is the new BRDC president!

Option or Prime wrote:No idea really, he said he had a feeling so probably you are right, Hamilton want might end up at Ferrari after he has broken all records at Mercedes say in 3 years time. Leclerc would be well established by then though.

Vettel might well retire but thats no real surprise to many, the 'revenge ram' is his red mist issue again. Even he must be a bit worried about that.

He did break some news though, that David Coulthard is the new BRDC president!

I'm pretty sure Vettel did not sink into a "red mist" merely because he was passed. He made a poor miscalculation and crashed - it happens. No need to turn it into a Cheltenham tragedy.

Nonetheless, if Vettel left Ferrari, I would imagine that if Leclerc is doing well, Ferrari would not bring in another WDC. Just would not be productive. I could see them bringing in a driver like Daniel or Verstappen though.

I'm liking the thought of Leclerc and Norris at Ferrari!

I'm starting to buy into the Vettel retirement rumour. Since Canada his performances have fallen off a cliff in terms of raw pace vs Leclerc.

I wonder if realising he's not got a chance at the title this year and a young hotshot teammate has made him consider if he can be bothered anymore, and then Canada being the icing on the cake.

The point was made in commentary that the likes of Hamilton, Leclerc, Verstappen, Norris, Ricciardo are all single and wake up in the morning thinking how can I drive faster. Vettel wakes up and thinks have I put the bins out.

Married life might have changed his focus.

Black_Flag_11 wrote:I'm starting to buy into the Vettel retirement rumour. Since Canada his performances have fallen off a cliff in terms of raw pace vs Leclerc.

I wonder if realising he's not got a chance at the title this year and a young hotshot teammate has made him consider if he can be bothered anymore, and then Canada being the icing on the cake.

If he keeps crashing it might get taken out of his hands TBH.

Option or Prime wrote:The point was made in commentary that the likes of Hamilton, Leclerc, Verstappen, Norris, Ricciardo are all single and wake up in the morning thinking how can I drive faster. Vettel wakes up and thinks have I put the bins out.

Married life might have changed his focus.

When did he get married and have his kids?

I would say 2015 was his last supremely good season, probably driver of the year even. Since then he's fallen off quite a bit, first half of 2017 I'd probably give him too tbf.

Black_Flag_11 wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:The point was made in commentary that the likes of Hamilton, Leclerc, Verstappen, Norris, Ricciardo are all single and wake up in the morning thinking how can I drive faster. Vettel wakes up and thinks have I put the bins out.

Married life might have changed his focus.

When did he get married and have his kids?

I would say 2015 was his last supremely good season, probably driver of the year even. Since then he's fallen off quite a bit, first half of 2017 I'd probably give him too tbf.

IMO he's been making too many mistakes for a tier 1 driver since 2016. They just seem to be building and building year on year. If you were Ferrari right now you might want to have a quiet word in his ear about his plans for 2020. Possibly suggesting a sabbatical.

Got married this year and has 2 girls, 3 and 5.

pokerman wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

spiritone wrote:I repeat, ocon to haas, russell to merc, and bottas to renault. Latifi to williams and hulk to red bull. Should be an american driver in F1,Herta, with Haas.. The only way that seems possible is if daddy buys a team.

I kind of like this but I struggle to imagine Bottas being let go. It would just be too hard to justify that. It would be amazing to see Russell get that opportunity though. I'd also be interested in seeing Valteri vs. Daniel. Kind of a way to connect the dots with some of our unscientific driver comparisons.

Unscientific as opposed to none scientific personal opinion?

You're like a broken record man

Black_Flag_11 wrote:I'm starting to buy into the Vettel retirement rumour. Since Canada his performances have fallen off a cliff in terms of raw pace vs Leclerc.

I wonder if realising he's not got a chance at the title this year and a young hotshot teammate has made him consider if he can be bothered anymore, and then Canada being the icing on the cake.

Honestly this Canada thing is the most overblown incident in F1 history. The only thing unusual about it is how much crying Ferrari and their fans have done about it.

sandman1347 wrote:

Black_Flag_11 wrote:I'm starting to buy into the Vettel retirement rumour. Since Canada his performances have fallen off a cliff in terms of raw pace vs Leclerc.

I wonder if realising he's not got a chance at the title this year and a young hotshot teammate has made him consider if he can be bothered anymore, and then Canada being the icing on the cake.

Honestly this Canada thing is the most overblown incident in F1 history. The only thing unusual about it is how much crying Ferrari and their fans have done about it.

Thanks, one day I hope to be as correct and reasoned about life's events as you! One day.......

sandman1347 wrote:

Black_Flag_11 wrote:I'm starting to buy into the Vettel retirement rumour. Since Canada his performances have fallen off a cliff in terms of raw pace vs Leclerc.

I wonder if realising he's not got a chance at the title this year and a young hotshot teammate has made him consider if he can be bothered anymore, and then Canada being the icing on the cake.

Honestly this Canada thing is the most overblown incident in F1 history. The only thing unusual about it is how much crying Ferrari and their fans have done about it.

Which is the only thing relevant to the above comments.

The point guys, is that even mentioning the penalty as if it's some huge event that will lead to Vettel's retirement is a complete cop-out. I can name no fewer than 10 substantial and costly errors that Sebastian has made since the start of 2018.

1. Locking up from 2nd place at the safety car restart in Baku and dropping down to 5th before eventually finishing 4th while Hamilton inherited the win.
2. Crashing into the back of Bottas on lap 1 in France; ruining Valteri's race and eventually finishing in 4th.
3. Crashing out from 1st in Germany with Lewis coming through to win from 14th on the grid.
4. Spinning on lap 1 in Monza; another race where his title rival took the win.
5. Crashing into Verstappen in Japan.
6. Crashing into Ricciardo in Austin.
7. Earning a penalty on the weigh bridge in Brazil.
8. Spinning in Bahrain as Hamilton passed him for second (the second time he did this in less than a year).
9. Running off the circuit in Canada while leading; earning a penalty.
10. Crashing into Max at Silverstone.

That's a lot of costly mistakes in a season and a half from someone who has generally been considered top tier. If he finds himself out of F1, it will be because of that; not the penalty in Canada. Try though he might, he won't get reasonable people to focus on that penalty instead of his erratic performance.

sandman1347 wrote:The point guys, is that even mentioning the penalty as if it's some huge event that will lead to Vettel's retirement is a complete cop-out. I can name no fewer than 10 substantial and costly errors that Sebastian has made since the start of 2018.

1. Locking up from 2nd place at the safety car restart in Baku and dropping down to 5th before eventually finishing 4th while Hamilton inherited the win.
2. Crashing into the back of Bottas on lap 1 in France; ruining Valteri's race and eventually finishing in 4th.
3. Crashing out from 1st in Germany with Lewis coming through to win from 14th on the grid.
4. Spinning on lap 1 in Monza; another race where his title rival took the win.
5. Crashing into Verstappen in Japan.
6. Crashing into Ricciardo in Austin.
7. Earning a penalty on the weigh bridge in Brazil.
8. Spinning in Bahrain as Hamilton passed him for second (the second time he did this in less than a year).
9. Running off the circuit in Canada while leading; earning a penalty.
10. Crashing into Max at Silverstone.

That's a lot of costly mistakes in a season and a half from someone who has generally been considered top tier. If he finds himself out of F1, it will be because of that; not the penalty in Canada. Try though he might, he won't get reasonable people to focus on that penalty instead of his erratic performance.

Is this a very long down period for Vettel or is this the reality of his racecraft and skill? Is he top tier?

sandman1347 wrote:

Black_Flag_11 wrote:I'm starting to buy into the Vettel retirement rumour. Since Canada his performances have fallen off a cliff in terms of raw pace vs Leclerc.

I wonder if realising he's not got a chance at the title this year and a young hotshot teammate has made him consider if he can be bothered anymore, and then Canada being the icing on the cake.

Honestly this Canada thing is the most overblown incident in F1 history. The only thing unusual about it is how much crying Ferrari and their fans have done about it.

I don't count myself as a Ferrari or Vettel fan but there's no doubting that F1 shot itself in the foot on that one. And fans of all the other racing series had a good collective laugh

Invade wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:The point guys, is that even mentioning the penalty as if it's some huge event that will lead to Vettel's retirement is a complete cop-out. I can name no fewer than 10 substantial and costly errors that Sebastian has made since the start of 2018.

1. Locking up from 2nd place at the safety car restart in Baku and dropping down to 5th before eventually finishing 4th while Hamilton inherited the win.
2. Crashing into the back of Bottas on lap 1 in France; ruining Valteri's race and eventually finishing in 4th.
3. Crashing out from 1st in Germany with Lewis coming through to win from 14th on the grid.
4. Spinning on lap 1 in Monza; another race where his title rival took the win.
5. Crashing into Verstappen in Japan.
6. Crashing into Ricciardo in Austin.
7. Earning a penalty on the weigh bridge in Brazil.
8. Spinning in Bahrain as Hamilton passed him for second (the second time he did this in less than a year).
9. Running off the circuit in Canada while leading; earning a penalty.
10. Crashing into Max at Silverstone.

That's a lot of costly mistakes in a season and a half from someone who has generally been considered top tier. If he finds himself out of F1, it will be because of that; not the penalty in Canada. Try though he might, he won't get reasonable people to focus on that penalty instead of his erratic performance.

Is this a very long down period for Vettel or is this the reality of his racecraft and skill? Is he top tier?

I don't know that this is a referendum on his skill level. We've seen him pull off some great performances and moves over the years and he's clearly capable of it. There just seems to be an erratic streak to Vettel and he lacks composure in the more intense moments of a race. I would say that falls into the category of racecraft and his has been lacking of late.

Granted it's very easy for us arm-chair experts to criticize him. It's not very easy to have Hamilton breathing down your neck for 40 laps in Montreal and never make a mistake...

Why do I feel all this seems to point out Vettel has made his mind to retire from F1 at the end of the year. He doesn't have the spark left in him & his irresponsible incidents are kind of reflecting his mindset. If Vettel does decide to retire, every driver's manager will make a call to Ferrari (except Hamilton & Verstappen).

Did anyone else mention during on of the FP's the commentators saying there was a rumour of Vettel > Red Bull?
They were laughing it off because the rumours started because he was seen chatting to Helmut, but one of them said that it might not be that crazy, and maybe going back to that environment might reinvigorate him.

My crazy prediction;
Vettel > Red Bull
Ricciardo > Ferrari
Gasly > Toro Rosso
Kvyat > Out
Ocon > Renault

Charles LeBrad wrote:Did anyone else mention during on of the FP's the commentators saying there was a rumour of Vettel > Red Bull?
They were laughing it off because the rumours started because he was seen chatting to Helmut, but one of them said that it might not be that crazy, and maybe going back to that environment might reinvigorate him.

My crazy prediction;
Vettel > Red Bull
Ricciardo > Ferrari
Gasly > Toro Rosso
Kvyat > Out
Ocon > Renault

They also had said if Alonso could return to McLaren (like he did), then anything is possible!

UnlikeUday wrote:

Charles LeBrad wrote:Did anyone else mention during on of the FP's the commentators saying there was a rumour of Vettel > Red Bull?
They were laughing it off because the rumours started because he was seen chatting to Helmut, but one of them said that it might not be that crazy, and maybe going back to that environment might reinvigorate him.

My crazy prediction;
Vettel > Red Bull
Ricciardo > Ferrari
Gasly > Toro Rosso
Kvyat > Out
Ocon > Renault

They also had said if Alonso could return to McLaren (like he did), then anything is possible!

Well, Vettel did try his hardest to force himself back into a Red Bull seat yesterday, the rear crash structure was just too darn strong...

Alienturnedhuman wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:

Charles LeBrad wrote:Did anyone else mention during on of the FP's the commentators saying there was a rumour of Vettel > Red Bull?
They were laughing it off because the rumours started because he was seen chatting to Helmut, but one of them said that it might not be that crazy, and maybe going back to that environment might reinvigorate him.

My crazy prediction;
Vettel > Red Bull
Ricciardo > Ferrari
Gasly > Toro Rosso
Kvyat > Out
Ocon > Renault

They also had said if Alonso could return to McLaren (like he did), then anything is possible!

Well, Vettel did try his hardest to force himself back into a Red Bull seat yesterday, the rear crash structure was just too darn strong...

Ha! I do feel bad for Vettel (but not bad enough not to mention that he is having his own silly season... do hope he pulls it back).

Black_Flag_11 wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:The point was made in commentary that the likes of Hamilton, Leclerc, Verstappen, Norris, Ricciardo are all single and wake up in the morning thinking how can I drive faster. Vettel wakes up and thinks have I put the bins out.

Married life might have changed his focus.

When did he get married and have his kids?

I would say 2015 was his last supremely good season, probably driver of the year even. Since then he's fallen off quite a bit, first half of 2017 I'd probably give him too tbf.

He got married right after the Canadian GP
But his second daughter was born somewhere late 2015. So he may have the family things going through his mind while racing.

pokerman wrote:

Jenson's Understeer wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Jenson's Understeer wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:Personally, I think Toto wants to hire Ocon.

I'd actually say the opposite, that if it was purely down to his personal opinion, he'd keep Bottas. He's had a much larger role in Bottas' career than he has Ocon's.

Are you sure about that?

Erm, yes? Have you forgotten that he was part of Valtteri's management team, the same management team that helped get him affiliated with an F1 team in the first place? And that that happened barely two months after Toto first bought shares in Williams?

Obviously he wants Ocon to succeed as well, and I'm sure in an ideal world he'd find a way to give both of them a race seat at Mercedes. But his personal investment in Bottas is a lot stronger.

I heard he stepped back from managing Bottas when he joined Mercedes citing conflict of interest whereas he's been managing Ocon since 2014.

Yeah, but he only stepped back because he had to, and would do the same if Ocon was given Bottas' seat. And while he stepped back, he's obviously still had a very active (even more so than before) role in Bottas' career since then. So I don't think the fact that he had to step away from the management side of Bottas' career would have made much difference.

robins13 wrote:

Black_Flag_11 wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:The point was made in commentary that the likes of Hamilton, Leclerc, Verstappen, Norris, Ricciardo are all single and wake up in the morning thinking how can I drive faster. Vettel wakes up and thinks have I put the bins out.

Married life might have changed his focus.

When did he get married and have his kids?

I would say 2015 was his last supremely good season, probably driver of the year even. Since then he's fallen off quite a bit, first half of 2017 I'd probably give him too tbf.

He got married right after the Canadian GP
But his second daughter was born somewhere late 2015. So he may have the family things going through his mind while racing.

Honestly, I think Vettel needs a sabbatical. It feels like he just needs a complete break from F1 at this point, a chance to go away and escape the circus for a year and really recharge, then come back fresh. The number of mistakes he's made since Germany last year, honestly, it's been a long time since I can remember any driver (let alone one at the front of the grid) making that many mistakes.

UnlikeUday wrote:

Charles LeBrad wrote:Did anyone else mention during on of the FP's the commentators saying there was a rumour of Vettel > Red Bull?
They were laughing it off because the rumours started because he was seen chatting to Helmut, but one of them said that it might not be that crazy, and maybe going back to that environment might reinvigorate him.

My crazy prediction;
Vettel > Red Bull
Ricciardo > Ferrari
Gasly > Toro Rosso
Kvyat > Out
Ocon > Renault

They also had said if Alonso could return to McLaren (like he did), then anything is possible!

What benefit would Vettel draw from going back to RB?

He'd still be in the spotlight in another top team getting shown up by another young driver except at RB he'd be doing it as the #2 & probably for less than a third of the money he's on now.

My guess is he'll be at Ferrari until he retires.

If Ghasly can keep his Britain form up he should be ok at RB. Giovanizzi's starting to show signs of promise at Alfa.

Sadly I can't see Kubica being around next year. Grosjean has to go & I think because of that that'll be Magnussens savior.

As for the 2nd Merc seat. At the start of the year I was sure it'd be Ocon's. Not so sure now. I'm not convinced he'd do a better job than Bottas. I can see the value in Merc giving Ocon a chance to prove himself next to Hamilton in preparation for Hamilton's retirement, but Ocons effectively had a years sabbatical & i'm not sure Merc would be keen to throw him straight in the deep end after a year off.

Maybe Bottas to stay with Ocon released to Haas?

Maybe Russell to Merc, Bottas to Haas & Ocon to Williams to partner Latifi?

Maybe just Ocon to Williams to replace Kubica though if Williams are going to Renault i'm not sure they'd go with 2 Merc drivers. Could we see Jack Aitkin in a Williams next year?

Charles LeBrad wrote:Did anyone else mention during on of the FP's the commentators saying there was a rumour of Vettel > Red Bull?
They were laughing it off because the rumours started because he was seen chatting to Helmut, but one of them said that it might not be that crazy, and maybe going back to that environment might reinvigorate him.

My crazy prediction;
Vettel > Red Bull
Ricciardo > Ferrari
Gasly > Toro Rosso
Kvyat > Out
Ocon > Renault

I don't believe that Vettel would ever want to go up against Verstappen at Red Bull.

Jenson's Understeer wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Jenson's Understeer wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Jenson's Understeer wrote: I'd actually say the opposite, that if it was purely down to his personal opinion, he'd keep Bottas. He's had a much larger role in Bottas' career than he has Ocon's.

Are you sure about that?

Erm, yes? Have you forgotten that he was part of Valtteri's management team, the same management team that helped get him affiliated with an F1 team in the first place? And that that happened barely two months after Toto first bought shares in Williams?

Obviously he wants Ocon to succeed as well, and I'm sure in an ideal world he'd find a way to give both of them a race seat at Mercedes. But his personal investment in Bottas is a lot stronger.

I heard he stepped back from managing Bottas when he joined Mercedes citing conflict of interest whereas he's been managing Ocon since 2014.

Yeah, but he only stepped back because he had to, and would do the same if Ocon was given Bottas' seat. And while he stepped back, he's obviously still had a very active (even more so than before) role in Bottas' career since then. So I don't think the fact that he had to step away from the management side of Bottas' career would have made much difference.

Well I was questioning why you think he's had a bigger role in Bottas' career than Ocon's, it seems a similar carry on to me prior to Bottas joining Mercedes.

Jenson's Understeer wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Jenson's Understeer wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:Personally, I think Toto wants to hire Ocon.

I'd actually say the opposite, that if it was purely down to his personal opinion, he'd keep Bottas. He's had a much larger role in Bottas' career than he has Ocon's.

Are you sure about that?

Erm, yes? Have you forgotten that he was part of Valtteri's management team, the same management team that helped get him affiliated with an F1 team in the first place? And that that happened barely two months after Toto first bought shares in Williams?

Obviously he wants Ocon to succeed as well, and I'm sure in an ideal world he'd find a way to give both of them a race seat at Mercedes. But his personal investment in Bottas is a lot stronger.

Does your ideal world look like this?

pokerman wrote:

Jenson's Understeer wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Jenson's Understeer wrote:

pokerman wrote:Erm, yes? Have you forgotten that he was part of Valtteri's management team, the same management team that helped get him affiliated with an F1 team in the first place? And that that happened barely two months after Toto first bought shares in Williams?

Obviously he wants Ocon to succeed as well, and I'm sure in an ideal world he'd find a way to give both of them a race seat at Mercedes. But his personal investment in Bottas is a lot stronger.

I heard he stepped back from managing Bottas when he joined Mercedes citing conflict of interest whereas he's been managing Ocon since 2014.

Yeah, but he only stepped back because he had to, and would do the same if Ocon was given Bottas' seat. And while he stepped back, he's obviously still had a very active (even more so than before) role in Bottas' career since then. So I don't think the fact that he had to step away from the management side of Bottas' career would have made much difference.

Well I was questioning why you think he's had a bigger role in Bottas' career than Ocon's, it seems a similar carry on to me prior to Bottas joining Mercedes.

Last time I checked, ten years is a much longer period of time than five years.