Silly Season 2020 (Kubica joins Alfa Romeo)!

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pokerman
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by pokerman »

spiritone wrote:So what your arguing is that haas should hire hulk because he might be a tiny bit better than the drivers they got. At best hulk is in the middle of the drivers that are presently racing in F1. They may not be able to hire hamilton but they should be looking for the next hamilton. Hiring hulk or perez isn't going to advance them any further up the standings. Need to gamble more on driver choices.
They only need not to be crashing to be better than Grosjean, it's all about scoring points and in that respect both the likes of the Hulk and Perez have more form for this then the drivers they presently have.
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pokerman
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by pokerman »

BMWSauber84 wrote:
spiritone wrote:Somebody give me one good reason why Haas would want the hulk? Haas needs someone that will move the team forward not stay the same.
The Hulk has always delivered consistency. Haas last season missed out on so many points through driver errors and Grosjean looks mentally shot to pieces. It's a no brainer for me.

The main question for me is why would Hulkenberg want Haas? They are a bit of a shambles at the moment and you have to suspect that better midfield deals would become available to him if he departed Renault.
Maybe not, were else would the Hulk go if Renault dispense with his services?
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pokerman
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by pokerman »

Jenson's Understeer wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
spiritone wrote:Somebody give me one good reason why Haas would want the hulk? Haas needs someone that will move the team forward not stay the same.
The Hulk has always delivered consistency. Haas last season missed out on so many points through driver errors and Grosjean looks mentally shot to pieces. It's a no brainer for me.

The main question for me is why would Hulkenberg want Haas? They are a bit of a shambles at the moment and you have to suspect that better midfield deals would become available to him if he departed Renault.
Would they, though? McLaren have decided their line-up. Alfa Romeo have Kimi in the seat they get to decide. Toro Rosso would be young Red Bull drivers. Renault obviously wouldn't be an option because he would've just left them, while Williams are not a better option than Haas right now.

That would leave Racing Point as the only other team besides Haas. But is Hulk enough of an upgrade on Perez, given the financial benefits that Perez brings, to warrant dropping Sergio for him? Hulk did outqualify him over their three years as teammates but Checo had more points in two of the three years, and of course stood on the podium each year of their partnership.

Plus if Racing Point are going to drop Perez, they're surely going to be looking to find a driver that Stroll looks better against, which isn't Hulkenberg.

So we're back to Haas as his only real option.
I thought that with Perez it was more of a case if he decides to leave?
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pokerman
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by pokerman »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
KingVoid wrote:I have a feeling that Mercedes believe that Russell has a higher ceiling than Ocon. I don’t think that Ocon will ever be anything better than a Bottas/Perez/Hulkenberg level driver, whereas I suspect that Russell has the talent to be something greater.
I do not know what Mercedes believe. However, I doubt that Russel is better or has a higher ceiling than Ocon. Quite in contrast., actually.

Let's be honest, everyone would easily beat the 2019 Kubica. Sad but true.
I don't think that you can actually know either way?
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pokerman
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
KingVoid wrote:I have a feeling that Mercedes believe that Russell has a higher ceiling than Ocon. I don’t think that Ocon will ever be anything better than a Bottas/Perez/Hulkenberg level driver, whereas I suspect that Russell has the talent to be something greater.
I do not know what Mercedes believe. However, I doubt that Russel is better or has a higher ceiling than Ocon. Quite in contrast., actually.

Let's be honest, everyone would easily beat the 2019 Kubica. Sad but true.
Firstly, we don't know that. Since Kubica is currently a total unknown, it's equally possible that Russel is very good or Kubica is very bad.

Secondly, could anyone have easily won the F2 championship as a rookie, beating Lando Norris in the process?
Indeed Russell's trajectory into F1 is actually close to identical to Leclerc's, back to back rookie GP3 and F2 Champion and he was class of the field both times, however it is Russell's misfortune to get placed in a worse F1 car than Leclerc did. Now we have this situation where Norris is seen as being the rookie of the season but the reality is that this is aided and abetted by driving the 4th best car in F1.
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Yellowbin74
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by Yellowbin74 »

pokerman wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
spiritone wrote:Somebody give me one good reason why Haas would want the hulk? Haas needs someone that will move the team forward not stay the same.
The Hulk has always delivered consistency. Haas last season missed out on so many points through driver errors and Grosjean looks mentally shot to pieces. It's a no brainer for me.

The main question for me is why would Hulkenberg want Haas? They are a bit of a shambles at the moment and you have to suspect that better midfield deals would become available to him if he departed Renault.
Maybe not, were else would the Hulk go if Renault dispense with his services?
I think Hulk would be a good hire for Haas, they need consistency. I don't really rate either of Haas' current drivers.

I can't see him going there voluntarily if he can keep the Renault seat, but if he's pushed it's slim pickings.
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pokerman
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by pokerman »

UnlikeUday wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
KingVoid wrote:I have a feeling that Mercedes believe that Russell has a higher ceiling than Ocon. I don’t think that Ocon will ever be anything better than a Bottas/Perez/Hulkenberg level driver, whereas I suspect that Russell has the talent to be something greater.
I do not know what Mercedes believe. However, I doubt that Russel is better or has a higher ceiling than Ocon. Quite in contrast., actually.

Let's be honest, everyone would easily beat the 2019 Kubica. Sad but true.
Firstly, we don't know that. Since Kubica is currently a total unknown, it's equally possible that Russel is very good or Kubica is very bad.

Secondly, could anyone have easily won the F2 championship as a rookie, beating Lando Norris in the process?
If GP3 is a significant better preperation than Ex-F3 and/or the specific challenge of F2 ( which is not really about being the fastest or best but much more about strategy calls and tyre management than F1), then: yes.
Russel is good, but IMO more of a Vandoorne-type of good. Both Ocon and Norris are better IMO (but of course, my opinion may be wrong ;) ) .
As per Matthew Cater in the MissedApex podcast, when Ocon was somewhat of an unknown driver & the 4th driver at Lotus, he did race & practice in the simulator. Since the Lotus cars were powered by Mercedes then, people from Mercedes (includes Wolff?) were so impressed by his simulation runs, they grabbed Ocon from the Infinity program of Lotus & took him under their wings.

I'm sure as of today, Wolff still highly rates Ocon & would be the 1st choice to replace Bottas. Question is on what grounds do they oust Bottas? If Hamilton creates a big gap to win the WDC & for some reason Bottas either crashes often or finishes 3rd in the WDC, they'll have a good reason to replace him with Ocon.
I kind of hear a different story from that, Mercedes did not grab him from the Infinity program, it was closed down and then Ocon was left with no seat and he was left with the possibility of his career ending there and then shortly after becoming F3 champion.

It was then that Ocon contacted Wolff, he did this because during his F3 campaign Mercedes tried to sign Verstappen but were somewhat gazumped by Red Bull who offered him a seat in F1 the following year. Wolff then took notice of Ocon who happened to be leading the F3 title race but like you say was signed up with another company, however Wolff told Ocon that if he needed any help in future just to get in contact with him and that's what Ocon did.
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pokerman
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by pokerman »

Yellowbin74 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
spiritone wrote:Somebody give me one good reason why Haas would want the hulk? Haas needs someone that will move the team forward not stay the same.
The Hulk has always delivered consistency. Haas last season missed out on so many points through driver errors and Grosjean looks mentally shot to pieces. It's a no brainer for me.

The main question for me is why would Hulkenberg want Haas? They are a bit of a shambles at the moment and you have to suspect that better midfield deals would become available to him if he departed Renault.
Maybe not, were else would the Hulk go if Renault dispense with his services?
I think Hulk would be a good hire for Haas, they need consistency. I don't really rate either of Haas' current drivers.

I can't see him going there voluntarily if he can keep the Renault seat, but if he's pushed it's slim pickings.
Exactly. :thumbup:
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Paolo_Lasardi
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
KingVoid wrote:I have a feeling that Mercedes believe that Russell has a higher ceiling than Ocon. I don’t think that Ocon will ever be anything better than a Bottas/Perez/Hulkenberg level driver, whereas I suspect that Russell has the talent to be something greater.
I do not know what Mercedes believe. However, I doubt that Russel is better or has a higher ceiling than Ocon. Quite in contrast., actually.

Let's be honest, everyone would easily beat the 2019 Kubica. Sad but true.
I don't think that you can actually know either way?
No. But I have closely followed their careers and formed an opinion. If we knew there would be no point in discussing. ;)
Regarding Kubica well that's quite obvious, isn't it?

kleefton
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by kleefton »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
KingVoid wrote:I have a feeling that Mercedes believe that Russell has a higher ceiling than Ocon. I don’t think that Ocon will ever be anything better than a Bottas/Perez/Hulkenberg level driver, whereas I suspect that Russell has the talent to be something greater.
I do not know what Mercedes believe. However, I doubt that Russel is better or has a higher ceiling than Ocon. Quite in contrast., actually.

Let's be honest, everyone would easily beat the 2019 Kubica. Sad but true.
Firstly, we don't know that. Since Kubica is currently a total unknown, it's equally possible that Russel is very good or Kubica is very bad.

Secondly, could anyone have easily won the F2 championship as a rookie, beating Lando Norris in the process?
If GP3 is a significant better preperation than Ex-F3 and/or the specific challenge of F2 ( which is not really about being the fastest or best but much more about strategy calls and tyre management than F1), then: yes.
Russel is good, but IMO more of a Vandoorne-type of good. Both Ocon and Norris are better IMO (but of course, my opinion may be wrong ;) ) .

Occon better than Russell is possible.
But how can Russel be not as good as Norris when the latter beat him in F2?

kleefton
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by kleefton »

pokerman wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
spiritone wrote:Somebody give me one good reason why Haas would want the hulk? Haas needs someone that will move the team forward not stay the same.
The Hulk has always delivered consistency. Haas last season missed out on so many points through driver errors and Grosjean looks mentally shot to pieces. It's a no brainer for me.

The main question for me is why would Hulkenberg want Haas? They are a bit of a shambles at the moment and you have to suspect that better midfield deals would become available to him if he departed Renault.
Maybe not, were else would the Hulk go if Renault dispense with his services?

If Hulk is let go at Renault I think he will call it quits if he can’t get in the top 3 cars. He went to Renault because he believed they were eventually going to field a top car. I don’t think he has any interest moving to another midfield team.

pokerman
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by pokerman »

kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
spiritone wrote:Somebody give me one good reason why Haas would want the hulk? Haas needs someone that will move the team forward not stay the same.
The Hulk has always delivered consistency. Haas last season missed out on so many points through driver errors and Grosjean looks mentally shot to pieces. It's a no brainer for me.

The main question for me is why would Hulkenberg want Haas? They are a bit of a shambles at the moment and you have to suspect that better midfield deals would become available to him if he departed Renault.
Maybe not, were else would the Hulk go if Renault dispense with his services?

If Hulk is let go at Renault I think he will call it quits if he can’t get in the top 3 cars. He went to Renault because he believed they were eventually going to field a top car. I don’t think he has any interest moving to another midfield team.
I disagree it still keeps him in employment, Hulk is not someone who has amassed a great fortune like some other drivers.
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pokerman
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by pokerman »

kleefton wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
KingVoid wrote:I have a feeling that Mercedes believe that Russell has a higher ceiling than Ocon. I don’t think that Ocon will ever be anything better than a Bottas/Perez/Hulkenberg level driver, whereas I suspect that Russell has the talent to be something greater.
I do not know what Mercedes believe. However, I doubt that Russel is better or has a higher ceiling than Ocon. Quite in contrast., actually.

Let's be honest, everyone would easily beat the 2019 Kubica. Sad but true.
Firstly, we don't know that. Since Kubica is currently a total unknown, it's equally possible that Russel is very good or Kubica is very bad.

Secondly, could anyone have easily won the F2 championship as a rookie, beating Lando Norris in the process?
If GP3 is a significant better preperation than Ex-F3 and/or the specific challenge of F2 ( which is not really about being the fastest or best but much more about strategy calls and tyre management than F1), then: yes.
Russel is good, but IMO more of a Vandoorne-type of good. Both Ocon and Norris are better IMO (but of course, my opinion may be wrong ;) ) .

Occon better than Russell is possible.
But how can Russel be not as good as Norris when the latter beat him in F2?
So is Russell being better than Ocon, there is no way to determine this.
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Jenson's Understeer
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by Jenson's Understeer »

pokerman wrote:
kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
spiritone wrote:Somebody give me one good reason why Haas would want the hulk? Haas needs someone that will move the team forward not stay the same.
The Hulk has always delivered consistency. Haas last season missed out on so many points through driver errors and Grosjean looks mentally shot to pieces. It's a no brainer for me.

The main question for me is why would Hulkenberg want Haas? They are a bit of a shambles at the moment and you have to suspect that better midfield deals would become available to him if he departed Renault.
Maybe not, were else would the Hulk go if Renault dispense with his services?

If Hulk is let go at Renault I think he will call it quits if he can’t get in the top 3 cars. He went to Renault because he believed they were eventually going to field a top car. I don’t think he has any interest moving to another midfield team.
I disagree it still keeps him in employment, Hulk is not someone who has amassed a great fortune like some other drivers.
While I do agree about the financial side of things, he might look at what other drivers have done and fancy the switch to FE. Obviously I'm speculating here as the only guy who could say for sure is Nico himself, but if I were in his shoes I'd be tempted. I'd imagine that all three German manufacturers would be interested in him so that would surely have some appeal, and there has to come a point where being among the best paid FE drivers is going to mean earning pretty close to midfield F1 drivers. Perhaps not right now but I know di Grassi was recently promoting the fact that the FE grid is now, on average, paid better than any other series with the exception of F1.

Obviously I'm purely speculating here as the only guy who could actually answer that is Nico himself.
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mikeyg123
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by mikeyg123 »

Jenson's Understeer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
The Hulk has always delivered consistency. Haas last season missed out on so many points through driver errors and Grosjean looks mentally shot to pieces. It's a no brainer for me.

The main question for me is why would Hulkenberg want Haas? They are a bit of a shambles at the moment and you have to suspect that better midfield deals would become available to him if he departed Renault.
Maybe not, were else would the Hulk go if Renault dispense with his services?

If Hulk is let go at Renault I think he will call it quits if he can’t get in the top 3 cars. He went to Renault because he believed they were eventually going to field a top car. I don’t think he has any interest moving to another midfield team.
I disagree it still keeps him in employment, Hulk is not someone who has amassed a great fortune like some other drivers.
While I do agree about the financial side of things, he might look at what other drivers have done and fancy the switch to FE. Obviously I'm speculating here as the only guy who could say for sure is Nico himself, but if I were in his shoes I'd be tempted. I'd imagine that all three German manufacturers would be interested in him so that would surely have some appeal, and there has to come a point where being among the best paid FE drivers is going to mean earning pretty close to midfield F1 drivers. Perhaps not right now but I know di Grassi was recently promoting the fact that the FE grid is now, on average, paid better than any other series with the exception of F1.

Obviously I'm purely speculating here as the only guy who could actually answer that is Nico himself.
I don't think he'd turn down an F1 drive as yet. I still think most drivers would rather be in the midfield in F1 than fight it out in FE. Nobody has turned down an F1 seat to race in FE as far as I know.

The window for F1 is short as well. Hulk could be an F1 driver for another 5 years and still walk into FE. If he goes to FE now then that may well be F1 closed to him.

kleefton
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by kleefton »

pokerman wrote:
kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
spiritone wrote:Somebody give me one good reason why Haas would want the hulk? Haas needs someone that will move the team forward not stay the same.
The Hulk has always delivered consistency. Haas last season missed out on so many points through driver errors and Grosjean looks mentally shot to pieces. It's a no brainer for me.

The main question for me is why would Hulkenberg want Haas? They are a bit of a shambles at the moment and you have to suspect that better midfield deals would become available to him if he departed Renault.
Maybe not, were else would the Hulk go if Renault dispense with his services?

If Hulk is let go at Renault I think he will call it quits if he can’t get in the top 3 cars. He went to Renault because he believed they were eventually going to field a top car. I don’t think he has any interest moving to another midfield team.
I disagree it still keeps him in employment, Hulk is not someone who has amassed a great fortune like some other drivers.
Ah yeah because there are no other series where he would get a job. Sure.
The guy is a Le Mans winner and highly regarded as a driver. Unfortunately he does have this rather unappealing record of most races done in F1 without a podium. Going to another midfield team is just going to worsen that record and likely guarantee that he’ll never get a podium.

Hulk can easily get a gig or multiple gigs elsewhere. I’m not sure which midfield team would want to pay for his services anyway in these times where pay drivers are pretty much ruling the grid. I really don’t think he’d agree to go to Haas or Racing point. With that said I don’t think Hulk is leaving Renault any time soon.

Paolo_Lasardi
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

kleefton wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
KingVoid wrote:I have a feeling that Mercedes believe that Russell has a higher ceiling than Ocon. I don’t think that Ocon will ever be anything better than a Bottas/Perez/Hulkenberg level driver, whereas I suspect that Russell has the talent to be something greater.
I do not know what Mercedes believe. However, I doubt that Russel is better or has a higher ceiling than Ocon. Quite in contrast., actually.

Let's be honest, everyone would easily beat the 2019 Kubica. Sad but true.
Firstly, we don't know that. Since Kubica is currently a total unknown, it's equally possible that Russel is very good or Kubica is very bad.

Secondly, could anyone have easily won the F2 championship as a rookie, beating Lando Norris in the process?
If GP3 is a significant better preperation than Ex-F3 and/or the specific challenge of F2 ( which is not really about being the fastest or best but much more about strategy calls and tyre management than F1), then: yes.
Russel is good, but IMO more of a Vandoorne-type of good. Both Ocon and Norris are better IMO (but of course, my opinion may be wrong ;) ) .

Occon better than Russell is possible.
But how can Russel be not as good as Norris when the latter beat him in F2?
See my post above : better prepared through GP3 and better regarding the very specific challenge of F2 (better strategy calls by his engineer, better tyre management). Plus generally more racing experience.

Paolo_Lasardi
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

pokerman wrote:
spiritone wrote:So what your arguing is that haas should hire hulk because he might be a tiny bit better than the drivers they got. At best hulk is in the middle of the drivers that are presently racing in F1. They may not be able to hire hamilton but they should be looking for the next hamilton. Hiring hulk or perez isn't going to advance them any further up the standings. Need to gamble more on driver choices.
They only need not to be crashing to be better than Grosjean, it's all about scoring points and in that respect both the likes of the Hulk and Perez have more form for this then the drivers they presently have.
Most urgently, Haas needs a better car!

pokerman
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by pokerman »

Jenson's Understeer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote: The Hulk has always delivered consistency. Haas last season missed out on so many points through driver errors and Grosjean looks mentally shot to pieces. It's a no brainer for me.

The main question for me is why would Hulkenberg want Haas? They are a bit of a shambles at the moment and you have to suspect that better midfield deals would become available to him if he departed Renault.
Maybe not, were else would the Hulk go if Renault dispense with his services?

If Hulk is let go at Renault I think he will call it quits if he can’t get in the top 3 cars. He went to Renault because he believed they were eventually going to field a top car. I don’t think he has any interest moving to another midfield team.
I disagree it still keeps him in employment, Hulk is not someone who has amassed a great fortune like some other drivers.
While I do agree about the financial side of things, he might look at what other drivers have done and fancy the switch to FE. Obviously I'm speculating here as the only guy who could say for sure is Nico himself, but if I were in his shoes I'd be tempted. I'd imagine that all three German manufacturers would be interested in him so that would surely have some appeal, and there has to come a point where being among the best paid FE drivers is going to mean earning pretty close to midfield F1 drivers. Perhaps not right now but I know di Grassi was recently promoting the fact that the FE grid is now, on average, paid better than any other series with the exception of F1.

Obviously I'm purely speculating here as the only guy who could actually answer that is Nico himself.
I'm not sure any driver targets a FE drive over a F1 drive, look at Albon he had a multi-year FE drive with Nissan in his back pocket, he basically tore that up for a single year drive with STR.
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pokerman
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by pokerman »

kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:
kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote: The Hulk has always delivered consistency. Haas last season missed out on so many points through driver errors and Grosjean looks mentally shot to pieces. It's a no brainer for me.

The main question for me is why would Hulkenberg want Haas? They are a bit of a shambles at the moment and you have to suspect that better midfield deals would become available to him if he departed Renault.
Maybe not, were else would the Hulk go if Renault dispense with his services?

If Hulk is let go at Renault I think he will call it quits if he can’t get in the top 3 cars. He went to Renault because he believed they were eventually going to field a top car. I don’t think he has any interest moving to another midfield team.
I disagree it still keeps him in employment, Hulk is not someone who has amassed a great fortune like some other drivers.
Ah yeah because there are no other series where he would get a job. Sure.
The guy is a Le Mans winner and highly regarded as a driver. Unfortunately he does have this rather unappealing record of most races done in F1 without a podium. Going to another midfield team is just going to worsen that record and likely guarantee that he’ll never get a podium.

Hulk can easily get a gig or multiple gigs elsewhere. I’m not sure which midfield team would want to pay for his services anyway in these times where pay drivers are pretty much ruling the grid. I really don’t think he’d agree to go to Haas or Racing point. With that said I don’t think Hulk is leaving Renault any time soon.
I can only repeat myself that he would target a F1 drive first.
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pokerman
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by pokerman »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
spiritone wrote:So what your arguing is that haas should hire hulk because he might be a tiny bit better than the drivers they got. At best hulk is in the middle of the drivers that are presently racing in F1. They may not be able to hire hamilton but they should be looking for the next hamilton. Hiring hulk or perez isn't going to advance them any further up the standings. Need to gamble more on driver choices.
They only need not to be crashing to be better than Grosjean, it's all about scoring points and in that respect both the likes of the Hulk and Perez have more form for this then the drivers they presently have.
Most urgently, Haas needs a better car!
They had a better car last year but neither driver delivered over the course of the season, I was surprised one of them wasn't dropped in particular Grosjean but he survived with Haas citing a certain loyalty to Grosjean because he showed faith in the fledgling team to join them in the first place, 12 months on and here we are again with Grosjean.
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by Exediron »

pokerman wrote:I'm not sure any driver targets a FE drive over a F1 drive, look at Albon he had a multi-year FE drive with Nissan in his back pocket, he basically tore that up for a single year drive with STR.
There's probably a few exceptions. I think JEV for example would probably prioritize remaining with his title-winning outfit and gunning for a third title over returning to a midfield F1 team. If it was a top team that's a whole different kettle of fish, but I can see targeting a good FE seat over a bad one in F1.

According to di Grassi, FE salaries are now the highest in motorsport, outside only F1. It won't be long now before talented drivers do indeed start choosing a series where anyone can win over one where only the top teams have a sniff at podiums.
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by Jezza13 »

Hulkenberg confident of staying at Renault next season.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... mwqpC.html
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by Jenson's Understeer »

Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:I'm not sure any driver targets a FE drive over a F1 drive, look at Albon he had a multi-year FE drive with Nissan in his back pocket, he basically tore that up for a single year drive with STR.
There's probably a few exceptions. I think JEV for example would probably prioritize remaining with his title-winning outfit and gunning for a third title over returning to a midfield F1 team. If it was a top team that's a whole different kettle of fish, but I can see targeting a good FE seat over a bad one in F1.

According to di Grassi, FE salaries are now the highest in motorsport, outside only F1. It won't be long now before talented drivers do indeed start choosing a series where anyone can win over one where only the top teams have a sniff at podiums.
Also, Albon isn't a good example as it was a completely different situation. He was 22 and had just finished his second year in F2, a year in which he looked decent alongside both Russell and Norris, saw both get F1 drives yet seemed to be being passed over himself. His F1 career looked to be over before it had even begun before Red Bull gave him a second chance. I don't think anyone would've made a different decision in those circumstances (as much as it would've been hilarious to see him tell Red Bull where to go, given they gave up on him previously).

Hulk, on the other hand, will be 32 at the end of the year and entering his 10th year in F1. If he left Renault then it would the fifth time he had switched teams, and depending on what team he went to, potentially his fifth different F1 team. I'll agree with what you said, Poker, that he wouldn't necessarily be targeting a FE drive over an F1 drive, but if he's leaving Renault and the two best offers on the table are Haas and Audi, I don't think it's a slam dunk that he takes the Haas drive just for the sake of staying on the F1 grid.

From what he was saying in yesterday's press conference, he seems confident he'll still be at Renault next year anyway (hope he's had that put to him in a more significant form than a handshake from Cyril :lol: ) so this might all be a completely moot discussion.
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
spiritone wrote:So what your arguing is that haas should hire hulk because he might be a tiny bit better than the drivers they got. At best hulk is in the middle of the drivers that are presently racing in F1. They may not be able to hire hamilton but they should be looking for the next hamilton. Hiring hulk or perez isn't going to advance them any further up the standings. Need to gamble more on driver choices.
They only need not to be crashing to be better than Grosjean, it's all about scoring points and in that respect both the likes of the Hulk and Perez have more form for this then the drivers they presently have.
Most urgently, Haas needs a better car!
They had a better car last year but neither driver delivered over the course of the season, I was surprised one of them wasn't dropped in particular Grosjean but he survived with Haas citing a certain loyalty to Grosjean because he showed faith in the fledgling team to join them in the first place, 12 months on and here we are again with Grosjean.
While I agree with respect to Grosjean, I do not think that Magnussen made more mistakes than Hülkenberg or,say, Sainz last season. He is unpopular with many over here and that blurs the assessment.

This year the main problem of Haas is the car.

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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by pokerman »

Jezza13 wrote:Hulkenberg confident of staying at Renault next season.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... mwqpC.html
I wouldn't be too disappointed with that.
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:Hulkenberg confident of staying at Renault next season.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... mwqpC.html
I wouldn't be too disappointed with that.
I have mixed feelings. Personally I think Hulk deserves to remain at Renault by a do want Ocon to get a seat where we can tell if he is going to top out as a tier 1 or tier 2 driver.

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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by JN23 »

Merc won't be making a decision on Bottas until August: https://twitter.com/benjhunt/status/115 ... 17728?s=19

I don't think that is great news for Bottas tbh, but still won't be surprised either way.

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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:I'm not sure any driver targets a FE drive over a F1 drive, look at Albon he had a multi-year FE drive with Nissan in his back pocket, he basically tore that up for a single year drive with STR.
There's probably a few exceptions. I think JEV for example would probably prioritize remaining with his title-winning outfit and gunning for a third title over returning to a midfield F1 team. If it was a top team that's a whole different kettle of fish, but I can see targeting a good FE seat over a bad one in F1.

According to di Grassi, FE salaries are now the highest in motorsport, outside only F1. It won't be long now before talented drivers do indeed start choosing a series where anyone can win over one where only the top teams have a sniff at podiums.
JEV has actually said that but I guess my fault for not being specific about what I meant, neither the Hulk or Albon have competed in FE, once you are established in a series and successful then things can become different.

Seriously though in respect to JEV which F1 team are really going to be looking to employ a 30 year old F1 reject, I know harsh but that's the reality.

In terms of driver salaries I see that top FE drivers earn not much more than £1M, the Hulk earns a lot more than that at Renault, I've no doubt even if he went to Haas he would easily top any FE driver on earnings.

Then what about the actual driving experience, a 1000hp F1 car against a 300hp FE car, and the tracks that they race on, Silverstone, Spa, Suzuka etc against a myriad of mickey mouse tight tracks, and short straights with no big inclines because these would seriously reduce the life of the batteries.

Cars with a low top speed and don't corner that fast, why would the Hulk turn down a drive in F1 for that?
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by pokerman »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
spiritone wrote:So what your arguing is that haas should hire hulk because he might be a tiny bit better than the drivers they got. At best hulk is in the middle of the drivers that are presently racing in F1. They may not be able to hire hamilton but they should be looking for the next hamilton. Hiring hulk or perez isn't going to advance them any further up the standings. Need to gamble more on driver choices.
They only need not to be crashing to be better than Grosjean, it's all about scoring points and in that respect both the likes of the Hulk and Perez have more form for this then the drivers they presently have.
Most urgently, Haas needs a better car!
They had a better car last year but neither driver delivered over the course of the season, I was surprised one of them wasn't dropped in particular Grosjean but he survived with Haas citing a certain loyalty to Grosjean because he showed faith in the fledgling team to join them in the first place, 12 months on and here we are again with Grosjean.
While I agree with respect to Grosjean, I do not think that Magnussen made more mistakes than Hülkenberg or,say, Sainz last season. He is unpopular with many over here and that blurs the assessment.

This year the main problem of Haas is the car.
KMag had a serious loss of form in the second half of the season whilst the Hulk finished best of the rest behind the top 3 teams.
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:Hulkenberg confident of staying at Renault next season.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... mwqpC.html
I wouldn't be too disappointed with that.
I have mixed feelings. Personally I think Hulk deserves to remain at Renault by a do want Ocon to get a seat where we can tell if he is going to top out as a tier 1 or tier 2 driver.
Well I would be the same whether it be the Hulk or Ocon, I'm just not routing for one over the other for different reasons.
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by pokerman »

JN23 wrote:Merc won't be making a decision on Bottas until August: https://twitter.com/benjhunt/status/115 ... 17728?s=19

I don't think that is great news for Bottas tbh, but still won't be surprised either way.
August is only 6 days away. :?

Also is not the summer break quite normal for this kind of thing?
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by Jezza13 »

pokerman wrote:
JN23 wrote:Merc won't be making a decision on Bottas until August: https://twitter.com/benjhunt/status/115 ... 17728?s=19

I don't think that is great news for Bottas tbh, but still won't be surprised either way.
August is only 6 days away. :?

Also is not the summer break quite normal for this kind of thing?
How quickly the years go.

It only seems like 12 mths ago it was almost August.
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by JN23 »

pokerman wrote:
JN23 wrote:Merc won't be making a decision on Bottas until August: https://twitter.com/benjhunt/status/115 ... 17728?s=19

I don't think that is great news for Bottas tbh, but still won't be surprised either way.
August is only 6 days away. :?

Also is not the summer break quite normal for this kind of thing?
That is a very good point which I hadn't realised :lol: either way, I took it as not being good for Bottas.

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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by UnlikeUday »

pokerman wrote:
JN23 wrote:Merc won't be making a decision on Bottas until August: https://twitter.com/benjhunt/status/115 ... 17728?s=19

I don't think that is great news for Bottas tbh, but still won't be surprised either way.
August is only 6 days away. :?

Also is not the summer break quite normal for this kind of thing?
Seems Mercedes want to make sure Ocon has a seat (anywhere)before they confirm Bottas.
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by Yellowbin74 »

pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
spiritone wrote:So what your arguing is that haas should hire hulk because he might be a tiny bit better than the drivers they got. At best hulk is in the middle of the drivers that are presently racing in F1. They may not be able to hire hamilton but they should be looking for the next hamilton. Hiring hulk or perez isn't going to advance them any further up the standings. Need to gamble more on driver choices.
They only need not to be crashing to be better than Grosjean, it's all about scoring points and in that respect both the likes of the Hulk and Perez have more form for this then the drivers they presently have.
Most urgently, Haas needs a better car!
They had a better car last year but neither driver delivered over the course of the season, I was surprised one of them wasn't dropped in particular Grosjean but he survived with Haas citing a certain loyalty to Grosjean because he showed faith in the fledgling team to join them in the first place, 12 months on and here we are again with Grosjean.
I can't remember the exact quote from Grosjean before the season started - along the lines of "I can't have another season like last year".

Well, it's even worse..

In fact, looking it up online, I can find articles to that effect in at least 3 or 4 years, saying he can't have another crash-strewn season!

They need to bin him off.
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by Jezza13 »

UnlikeUday wrote:
pokerman wrote:
JN23 wrote:Merc won't be making a decision on Bottas until August: https://twitter.com/benjhunt/status/115 ... 17728?s=19

I don't think that is great news for Bottas tbh, but still won't be surprised either way.
August is only 6 days away. :?

Also is not the summer break quite normal for this kind of thing?
Seems Mercedes want to make sure Ocon has a seat (anywhere)before they confirm Bottas.
If Merc have decided to keep Bottas then I don't think it'd matter when, or even if, they find Ocon a seat. They might just cut Ocon free and leave it up to him to find a gig. I think it'd be bloody slack of them if they did but then again I don't suppose they're obliged to do anything if Ocon's contract has ended.

As poker said, August is the summer break and it just seems to be the time these days when teams & drivers can focus on finalizing contracts & tying up loose ends.
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by UnlikeUday »

From Team Principals press conference, interesting stuff Wolff said regarding Ocon.

"George (Russell) and Esteban are our most experienced junior drivers. We are very happy with their development. It is a shame that Esteban fell out of the boat last year. He has shown that he is a very valuable addition to the team. He contributes a lot behind the scenes, rides in the simulator every weekend and is ready every Saturday. Putting a young driver in the car would be interesting.

“In contrast, there is interest from other teams. We have to make a decision for ourselves, as well as one that works out well for Esteban. If we choose Valtteri, then someone (Ocon) should train him further. That causes us to lose him for a year or two, but those are the consequences of such a decision".

What baffles me is he said that causes us to lose him for a year or two! Is he still not prepared to cut ties but loan him?
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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by kleefton »

UnlikeUday wrote:From Team Principals press conference, interesting stuff Wolff said regarding Ocon.

"George (Russell) and Esteban are our most experienced junior drivers. We are very happy with their development. It is a shame that Esteban fell out of the boat last year. He has shown that he is a very valuable addition to the team. He contributes a lot behind the scenes, rides in the simulator every weekend and is ready every Saturday. Putting a young driver in the car would be interesting.

“In contrast, there is interest from other teams. We have to make a decision for ourselves, as well as one that works out well for Esteban. If we choose Valtteri, then someone (Ocon) should train him further. That causes us to lose him for a year or two, but those are the consequences of such a decision".

What baffles me is he said that causes us to lose him for a year or two! Is he still not prepared to cut ties but loan him?
Yeah sounds to me like he is still very non committal to resigning Bottas. It's looking more and more like Ocon is going to win the seat now.

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Re: Silly Season 2020!

Post by UnlikeUday »

So a few interesting things then regarding the Mercedes-Botttas-Ocon saga.

1. Bottas has begun negotiations with Mercedes for 2020.
2. Wolff has said there's no hurry & needs to assess the future lineup just not for 2020 but keeping 2020 & beyond.
3. Bottas probably has a few interested teams wanting to sign him up as well as Ocon.
4. Wolff believes Ocon too deserves the seat at Mercedes as a junior Mercedes driver driving a Mercedes car interests & excites him.
5. If they continue with Bottas, Wolff said they're ready to loan Ocon to another team for a year or two. Which means Wolff wants to see Ocon in a Mercedes car sooner or later.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... nyPlT.html

If Bottas agrees to continue with Mercedes, he has to be sure he won't be dumped in favour of Ocon or Russell who are bound to join Mercedes in the near future.
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