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Two races in a row now, we've seen etiquette broken on a qualy outlap. Vettel passed Grosjean after the penultimate corner, allegedly causing Grosjean to impede Norris in Bahrain. And in China, Vettel, Ricciardo, and Hulkenberg passed Verstappen after the penultimate corner, causing Verstappen to arrive too late.

Not being a written rule, should this etiquette matter? If it does, should etiquette also include not backing up your competitors so they're too late?

It looked pretty obvious to me that Mercedes were intent on forcing exactly the situation we saw, with some of their key competitors missing a chance to improve.

What do you think?

kowen1208 wrote:Two races in a row now, we've seen etiquette broken on a qualy outlap. Vettel passed Grosjean after the penultimate corner, allegedly causing Grosjean to impede Norris in Bahrain. And in China, Vettel, Ricciardo, and Hulkenberg passed Verstappen after the penultimate corner, causing Verstappen to arrive too late.

Not being a written rule, should this etiquette matter? If it does, should etiquette also include not backing up your competitors so they're too late?

It looked pretty obvious to me that Mercedes were intent on forcing exactly the situation we saw, with some of their key competitors missing a chance to improve.

What do you think?

Tyre management was on a knife edge at the circuit this weekend. Mercedes messing around and impeding their tyre set up in order to cause chaos over a field they had a sizeable advantage over is just bonkers. Normally the cars with the performance advantage go at the end, not at the start - hence why you see Vettel and Hamilton usually be the last two drivers to set their times. However, due to the fact the track was improving due to the dust lifting, and the other teams elected to adopt a risky strategy of leaving it until the very last minute to get the track in optimal conditions. Merc had enough in their pocket this didn't matter, but all the other teams ended up sharing the last few seconds of tarmac together.

Don't have much time for unwritten "rules". Unless they're purposefully blocking in a clearly unfair manner (that would be covered by existing written rules), pass them or back off. If you don't want to risk it then go out earlier.
We used to have take-it-in-turns qualifying, we don't any more.

IIRC the Vettel-Grosjean one was a bit different. In that case they would have both made the line in time Vettel just decided he wanted to be ahead, so I think you could probably fairly say Vettel should have backed off rather than compromising Grosjean.

In this instance though not everyone was going to make it to the line in time (as shown by some drivers not making the cut), at that point it's obviously going to be every man for themselves and really the teams should have seen that coming based on the outlap pace and told their drivers to put their foot down earlier on the outlap.

As Ricciardo said he wasnt sure if the others were getting the same info that it was going to be tight to make it to the line, so he couldn't risk staying behind them and being screwed up by another teams timing error.

wolfticket wrote:Don't have much time for unwritten "rules". Unless they're purposefully blocking in a clearly unfair manner (that would be covered by existing written rules), pass them or back off. If you don't want to risk it then go out earlier.
We used to have take-it-in-turns qualifying, we don't any more.

I think this is largely how I feel. Part of what I like about the current qualifying format is the possibility of a team getting caught out in situations like we had here.

Verstappen is upset about being passed and thus missing the cut-off, but he was in no rush to get ahead of Mercedes and prevent it. I'm sure Mercedes would have responded and tried to stay ahead, but that may have been enough increase in pace to see all 10 cars through in time.

I guess in a way I'm fascinated that with all the money and brain power that goes into F1, teams and drivers are still so prone to making strategic mistakes.

Part of qualy outlap etiquette: don't start swearing when you have been outwitted through your own/your own team's fault.

I am a Max fan but this will not go. Even the extremely biased Dutch tv thought it was his own fault (although it was voice of reason Robert Doornbos; the bald lickspittles that are on duty on sunday will certainly say it was a disgrace how their mealticket was treated).

Frenk Biber wrote:(although it was voice of reason Robert Doornbos; the bald lickspittles that are on duty on sunday will certainly say it was a disgrace how their mealticket was treated).

And I think we have it bad with Crofty sometimes...

Exediron wrote:

Frenk Biber wrote:(although it was voice of reason Robert Doornbos; the bald lickspittles that are on duty on sunday will certainly say it was a disgrace how their mealticket was treated).

And I think we have it bad with Crofty sometimes...

What is the proper etiquette?

1) I will go as slow as I choose and possibly impede another driver because this is the best way to manage my tires.

OR

2) This is a results driven sport and if some other driver decides to drive slow, I am not going to get held up by that driver. It is my job to obtain the best result.

I think its a lesson every driver learns at one point and thinks they've been cheated when its happened to them.

Its happened to Hamilton and Vettel in the past, not to this degree, but they soon learnt their lesson.

I just hope Max doesnt use the next race to simply target Vettel on his outlap and screw his quali.

The gentleman's agreement is just a matter of respect between drivers. If the drivers start ignoring the unwritten agreement then you'll potentially end up in a KMag/Alonso Monza 2018 situation again and again. Magnussen ruined Alonso's qualy lap by ignoring the agreement. Alonso ruined Magnussen's qualy lap as payback. And because of the written rules Alonso was within his rights to take Turn 1 the way he did because, as far the rules were concerned, he was on his hot lap also

Both drivers came away from it having their qualifying spoiled and neither got a penalty because neither had broken a written rule. And the whole incident stemmed from Magnussen ignoring the unwritten gentleman's agreement

If the drivers are going too slow and ensuring that those behind can't start their lap in time - then the drivers have EVERY right to pass and get on with it - Max was slow - then slowed even more after Vettel passed - meaning the Renault drivers had no choice - Max was too slow - and I've seen Max I'm sure passing others in a qualifying lap (yes earlier than the second last corner but...) - so the comment is rubbish - get going faster or don't expect you can be selfish and cost others their chance