Race Pace Pecking Order...?

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Invade
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Race Pace Pecking Order...?

Post by Invade »

Might it be as follows...

Tier 1
Hamilton, Verstappen

Tier 2
Hulk, Perez, Ricciardo, Vettel

Where does/will Leclerc fit in?

How do you see the pecking order?

Now I don't necessarily think Vettel isn't top tier but this grouping came to mind in light of remembering what Ricciardo did to Vettel, and then seeing the extra pace Verstappen has over Ricciardo, and also how comprehensively outpaced Vettel was by Leclerc at Bahrain 2019. Also, I have a suspicion that Max might prove to be in a league of his own regarding race pace... just need to see him really have a championship worthy car. Ricciardo is highly regarded and the way Max often genuinely crushed him in the race was pretty eye-opening.

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Re: Race Pace Pecking Order...?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Hamilton Verstappen
Vettel Ricciardo
Perez Hulk Ocon
Bottas Sainz Kimi
Grosjean Magnussen
Stroll

The rest we don't know enough about yet. Grosjean can be up at tier 3 at his best but as the only happens a couples of times a year I couldn't put him there.

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Invade
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Re: Race Pace Pecking Order...?

Post by Invade »

mikeyg123 wrote:Hamilton Verstappen
Vettel Ricciardo
Perez Hulk Ocon
Bottas Sainz Kimi
Grosjean Magnussen
Stroll

The rest we don't know enough about yet. Grosjean can be up at tier 3 at his best but as the only happens a couples of times a year I couldn't put him there.
Nice list there. :thumbup:

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Re: Race Pace Pecking Order...?

Post by kowen1208 »

I've thought a lot about this recently, too. I think a big factor is having a car that behaves the way a driver likes. I don't necessarily think Ricciardo is a better driver than Vettel, even though he far outclassed him in 2014. There were significant changes to aero that year, too, that we don't tend to think about much, and the car simply didn't handle in a way Vettel was comfortable with. I think that's also why Ricciardo is struggling right now; the Renault behaves differently and he hasn't adjusted yet. I've thought of the tiers like this: tier 1 is drivers you should be willing to pay big money for, because they definitely have champion potential. Tier 2 is drivers you should try to snatch up if they're available. They'll help secure a WCC if paired with a tier 1, or help secure best-of-the-rest if they're the primary driver. Tier 3 drivers probably shouldn't be in a top team. They're consistent enough to help fight for best-of-the-rest. Tier 4 drivers might work their way up to tier 3 with practice, but their days in F1 might be numbered. That said, here are my tiers:

Tier 1: Hamilton, Vettel, Verstappen, Ricciardo
Tier 2: Bottas, Leclerc*, Hulkenberg, Raikkonen
Tier 3: Norris*, Magnussen, Sainz, Grosjean, Stroll, Gasly*, Russell*, Perez, Kvyat, Albon*
Tier 4: Giovinazzi*, Kubica*

*Might be a tier higher, but I don't think they've had the time and/or equipment to show their potential yet.

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Re: Race Pace Pecking Order...?

Post by Filip »

Pure fantasy

Impossible to judge drivers in poor cars like Hulk, who might be better then Ricciardo, and him could be faster then Vettel, telling you pure fantasy.

For me certain facts are:
Hamilton is in top 2 with Max which may be even 0,3 faster then him, but i don`t know.
Kimi is overrated big time.
Leclerc unknown
Vettel getting old

For me Max is a phenomenon, unreal pace, relentless, the only guy from some time now who may remind Senna. I am not Dutch.

Pity F1 looks like so nowdays, that really fast guys can`t race eachother, after 2010 F1 is like dead.
Fans are hyped about 2019, okay, but the regulations did not change much, it is 2018 part 2. Merc with their advantage in 2nd part of 2018 are the favourites, while Ferrari trying their lack with their speed on straights.
TBH something really new is only a Mclaren improvement, and Williams being the most terrible team on earth.

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Re: Race Pace Pecking Order...?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:Hamilton Verstappen
Vettel Ricciardo
Perez Hulk Ocon
Bottas Sainz Kimi
Grosjean Magnussen
Stroll

The rest we don't know enough about yet. Grosjean can be up at tier 3 at his best but as the only happens a couples of times a year I couldn't put him there.
You see this is what I don't understand you think today's grid is weak because of the loss of drivers like Alonso, Massa, Button and Rosberg, yet you rate Bottas so low despite the fact he beat Massa 3 years on the bounce. :?
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Re: Race Pace Pecking Order...?

Post by sandman1347 »

Filip wrote:Pure fantasy

Impossible to judge drivers in poor cars like Hulk, who might be better then Ricciardo, and him could be faster then Vettel, telling you pure fantasy.

For me certain facts are:
Hamilton is in top 2 with Max which may be even 0,3 faster then him, but i don`t know.
Kimi is overrated big time.
Leclerc unknown
Vettel getting old

For me Max is a phenomenon, unreal pace, relentless, the only guy from some time now who may remind Senna. I am not Dutch.

Pity F1 looks like so nowdays, that really fast guys can`t race eachother, after 2010 F1 is like dead.
Fans are hyped about 2019, okay, but the regulations did not change much, it is 2018 part 2. Merc with their advantage in 2nd part of 2018 are the favourites, while Ferrari trying their lack with their speed on straights.
TBH something really new is only a Mclaren improvement, and Williams being the most terrible team on earth.
The part in bold is extremely confusing. What makes you think Max might be 3 tenths of a second faster than Hamilton? That seems extremely random yet very specific and totally unsupported.

For me, Hamilton is certainly at the top of the mountain and with Alonso retired, I don't feel 100% confident that anyone else on the current grid is at that level. Max might be that strong and so might Charles but they have yet to really establish that. Vettel's race pace is also very strong but a notch below Hamilton IMO and i would add that Ricciardo has also shown excellent race pace at times although he was clearly a bit slower than Max both on Saturdays and Sundays. Adding in some educated guessing; my rating would go:

1. Hamilton
2. Verstappen
3. Leclerc
4. Ricciardo
5. Vettel

Albon and Norris have really impressed me so far but there just isn't enough of a sample size to really assess them yet.

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Re: Race Pace Pecking Order...?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Hamilton Verstappen
Vettel Ricciardo
Perez Hulk Ocon
Bottas Sainz Kimi
Grosjean Magnussen
Stroll

The rest we don't know enough about yet. Grosjean can be up at tier 3 at his best but as the only happens a couples of times a year I couldn't put him there.
You see this is what I don't understand you think today's grid is weak because of the loss of drivers like Alonso, Massa, Button and Rosberg, yet you rate Bottas so low despite the fact he beat Massa 3 years on the bounce. :?
That's still 7th - 10th. of the known quantities.

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Re: Race Pace Pecking Order...?

Post by Randine »

I find it strange that you all rate Max so highly.
I see a driver that is on the edge at all costs and as a result of that can be very quick at times.
However over a season, he makes mistakes and is still no where near as a mature driver as even Leclerc. (5th season Max vs 2nd season Leclerc)

Top drivers for me:
Ham / Ricciardo
Max / Leclerc / Hulk
Vettel
The rest
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Re: Race Pace Pecking Order...?

Post by Covalent »

Interesting topic but I think there are a couple posters here that will not accept having a certain driver sharing the top spot with anyone. I hope I'm proven wrong and this thread won't descend into the usual.

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Re: Race Pace Pecking Order...?

Post by Covalent »

Randine wrote:I find it strange that you all rate Max so highly.
I see a driver that is on the edge at all costs and as a result of that can be very quick at times.
However over a season, he makes mistakes and is still no where near as a mature driver as even Leclerc. (5th season Max vs 2nd season Leclerc)

Top drivers for me:
Ham / Ricciardo
Max / Leclerc / Hulk
Vettel
The rest
Is it not possible that your viewpoint may be the incorrect one if it differs from everyone else?

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Re: Race Pace Pecking Order...?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Covalent wrote:Interesting topic but I think there are a couple posters here that will not accept having a certain driver sharing the top spot with anyone. I hope I'm proven wrong and this thread won't descend into the usual.
Shouldn't be a problem. Now Alonso's retired at least he's sharing top spot and not second.

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Re: Race Pace Pecking Order...?

Post by Randine »

Covalent wrote:
Randine wrote:I find it strange that you all rate Max so highly.
I see a driver that is on the edge at all costs and as a result of that can be very quick at times.
However over a season, he makes mistakes and is still no where near as a mature driver as even Leclerc. (5th season Max vs 2nd season Leclerc)

Top drivers for me:
Ham / Ricciardo
Max / Leclerc / Hulk
Vettel
The rest
Is it not possible that your viewpoint may be the incorrect one if it differs from everyone else?
Not from where I sit.

For the next Senna, Max has zero pole positions. (when Dan grabbed 3 as his team mate) We haven't seen him under extreme pressure to deliver on a title yet.
And from what I have seen he makes far too many mistakes for a driver in his 5th year in F1.
He should have won China and Brazil 2018, but was careless.
Even in his great drive in the wet in Brazil, at one point he lost it down the straight and it was a miracle that his car didn't hit a wall.
He drives far too close to the edge at every opportunity. So he is either hero or zero.
If he backs off from his ultimate pace a little, then maybe he will lose part of his edge.

Unless there is a Honda miracle, I don't see him winning a title in the the next 2 seasons, and then it will be a gamble heading into 2021 of which will be the team to beat.
Leclerc has a far better shot at a title either this year or next.
Dan the man!


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Re: Race Pace Pecking Order...?

Post by Covalent »

Randine wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Randine wrote:I find it strange that you all rate Max so highly.
I see a driver that is on the edge at all costs and as a result of that can be very quick at times.
However over a season, he makes mistakes and is still no where near as a mature driver as even Leclerc. (5th season Max vs 2nd season Leclerc)

Top drivers for me:
Ham / Ricciardo
Max / Leclerc / Hulk
Vettel
The rest
Is it not possible that your viewpoint may be the incorrect one if it differs from everyone else?
Not from where I sit.

For the next Senna, Max has zero pole positions. (when Dan grabbed 3 as his team mate) We haven't seen him under extreme pressure to deliver on a title yet.
And from what I have seen he makes far too many mistakes for a driver in his 5th year in F1.
He should have won China and Brazil 2018, but was careless.
Even in his great drive in the wet in Brazil, at one point he lost it down the straight and it was a miracle that his car didn't hit a wall.
He drives far too close to the edge at every opportunity. So he is either hero or zero.
If he backs off from his ultimate pace a little, then maybe he will lose part of his edge.

Unless there is a Honda miracle, I don't see him winning a title in the the next 2 seasons, and then it will be a gamble heading into 2021 of which will be the team to beat.
Leclerc has a far better shot at a title either this year or next.
I should have just stopped reading at the bolded part..
I don't see what any of what follows has to do with race pace.

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Re: Race Pace Pecking Order...?

Post by Zoue »

Tier 1
Hamilton, Verstappen, Vettel, Ricciardo

Tier 2
Leclerc, Hulk,

Tier 3
Bottas, Kimi

I struggled with this more than I thought I would, tbh. I would normally say that Vettel has excellent race pace and I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt this year before writing him off. But Ricciardo beat him in 2014 and Max is clearly faster than Ricciardo. But given the lack of direct comparison I don't think I could justify putting Max above Hamilton since Hamilton also clearly has excellent race pace. Decisions, decisions.

So I've chosen to rank then as Tier 1 being drivers who you can count on to get the best out of the car, with Tier 2 being solid but dependable, while Tier 3 are drivers capable of being quick when conditions are right, but too variable to be dependable.

Leclerc I'll admit is a wild card since I haven't seen enough of him to be sure but he's impressed me so far. Not entirely happy so may revisit

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Re: Race Pace Pecking Order...?

Post by Exediron »

Invade wrote:Where does/will Leclerc fit in?

How do you see the pecking order?
Leclerc is quite hard to place, but based on the very small sample we have so far he's certainly towards the top. Here is what I believe, with the best level of accuracy I can commit to:

Tier 1
Hamilton, maybe Verstappen, maybe Leclerc

Tier 2
Vettel, Ricciardo

Tier 3
Bottas, Hulkenberg, Perez, Sainz, maybe Raikkonen, probably Gasly

Tier 4
Grosjean, Magnussen, Kvyat, Albon, Norris, Giovinazzi, maybe Stroll

Complete Unknowns
Russel, Kubica

I see Hamilton as having clear separation from Vettel and Ricciardo, with Verstappen and Leclerc as question marks, but having the potential to be in Hamilton's league. I think Ricciardo is currently underperforming at Renault, but probably was somewhat flattered in 2014 against Vettel.

Another big question mark for me is Kimi. He's been looking impressive at Alfa, but his race pace was badly inferior to Vettel's most of the time, to the extent that I would be inclined to place him more than a whole category below. I've given him a 'maybe' for tier 3 on the assumption that he wasn't really driving his best as Vettel's designated #2.

It's impossible to say how Russel and Kubica are performing, since their only reference is each other in a terrible car. If we assume Kubica is still anything like he was in 2010, Russel belongs somewhere pretty high up - but there's really no way to be sure.
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Re: Race Pace Pecking Order...?

Post by Fiki »

Randine wrote:I find it strange that you all rate Max so highly.
Because it is his race pace this thread discusses, not the many "mistakes" he still makes. Those errors influence his results (and sadly often those of others), but have no influence yet on his race pace. A year ago, when he was saying he wasn't going to change his style, I believe that what he was keeping back was admitting the fear that the mental effort of cleaning up his racing, may well have a negative effect on his race pace. Perhaps a sports psychologist could provide more insight, and on Vettel's case.
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Re: Race Pace Pecking Order...?

Post by tootsie323 »

Fiki wrote:
Randine wrote:I find it strange that you all rate Max so highly.
Because it is his race pace this thread discusses, not the many "mistakes" he still makes. Those errors influence his results (and sadly often those of others), but have no influence yet on his race pace. A year ago, when he was saying he wasn't going to change his style, I believe that what he was keeping back was admitting the fear that the mental effort of cleaning up his racing, may well have a negative effect on his race pace. Perhaps a sports psychologist could provide more insight, and on Vettel's case.
I'm inclined to agree with this. On standalone race pace I believe that Verstappen is right up there. As an aside, I think that he has racecraft as well. It's simply those occasional moments of red mist, in my view, that can hamper him.
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Re: Race Pace Pecking Order...?

Post by Covalent »

tootsie323 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Randine wrote:I find it strange that you all rate Max so highly.
Because it is his race pace this thread discusses, not the many "mistakes" he still makes. Those errors influence his results (and sadly often those of others), but have no influence yet on his race pace. A year ago, when he was saying he wasn't going to change his style, I believe that what he was keeping back was admitting the fear that the mental effort of cleaning up his racing, may well have a negative effect on his race pace. Perhaps a sports psychologist could provide more insight, and on Vettel's case.
I'm inclined to agree with this. On standalone race pace I believe that Verstappen is right up there. As an aside, I think that he has racecraft as well. It's simply those occasional moments of red mist, in my view, that can hamper him.
Yes I agree with the above. You can have Verstappen a whole tier below Ricciardo if you like, but to question those who have it the other way round is a bit absurd when looking at how more often than not Verstappen has left Ricciardo in the dust on pure pace alone.

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Re: Race Pace Pecking Order...?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Covalent wrote:Interesting topic but I think there are a couple posters here that will not accept having a certain driver sharing the top spot with anyone. I hope I'm proven wrong and this thread won't descend into the usual.
Shouldn't be a problem. Now Alonso's retired at least he's sharing top spot and not second.
Needing to spice the thread up a bit perhaps between the two of you?
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Re: Race Pace Pecking Order...?

Post by Randine »

Covalent wrote:
Randine wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Randine wrote:I find it strange that you all rate Max so highly.
I see a driver that is on the edge at all costs and as a result of that can be very quick at times.
However over a season, he makes mistakes and is still no where near as a mature driver as even Leclerc. (5th season Max vs 2nd season Leclerc)

Top drivers for me:
Ham / Ricciardo
Max / Leclerc / Hulk
Vettel
The rest
Is it not possible that your viewpoint may be the incorrect one if it differs from everyone else?
Not from where I sit.

For the next Senna, Max has zero pole positions. (when Dan grabbed 3 as his team mate) We haven't seen him under extreme pressure to deliver on a title yet.
And from what I have seen he makes far too many mistakes for a driver in his 5th year in F1.
He should have won China and Brazil 2018, but was careless.
Even in his great drive in the wet in Brazil, at one point he lost it down the straight and it was a miracle that his car didn't hit a wall.
He drives far too close to the edge at every opportunity. So he is either hero or zero.
If he backs off from his ultimate pace a little, then maybe he will lose part of his edge.

Unless there is a Honda miracle, I don't see him winning a title in the the next 2 seasons, and then it will be a gamble heading into 2021 of which will be the team to beat.
Leclerc has a far better shot at a title either this year or next.
I should have just stopped reading at the bolded part..
I don't see what any of what follows has to do with race pace.
Ok, based on that, do you know who I think had great race pace?
Maldonado.

What is clear from Melbourne with the fastest lap point, that all drivers are holding back throughout the race. How can Max or Bottas knock considerable time off their best just to get an extra point?

Based on that, I think you have to factor in race craft as well in assessing race pace, especially the likelihood of reaching the end unscathed.
So everything I wrote is relevant.

If you want to talk about who is fastest over 1 lap, then that might be closer to what you are referring to as race pace.
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Re: Race Pace Pecking Order...?

Post by olly-44 »

Well mine will be a lot different from others here as I think Ricciardo is massively overrated! (note: I like the guy a lot but think he's over hyped).

Tier 1
Hamilton
Verstappen

Tier 2
Leclerc
Hulkenburg
Vettel

Tier 3
Ricciardo
Norris
Raikkonen

Tier 4
Bottas
Sainz
Gasly
Russell
Perez
Magnussen
Grosjean
Kvyat
Perez

Tier 5
Stroll
Kubica (sorry Robert - many years ago you would've been Tier 1 or 2)
Albon
Giovinazzi
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Re: Race Pace Pecking Order...?

Post by Zoue »

Randine wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Randine wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Randine wrote:I find it strange that you all rate Max so highly.
I see a driver that is on the edge at all costs and as a result of that can be very quick at times.
However over a season, he makes mistakes and is still no where near as a mature driver as even Leclerc. (5th season Max vs 2nd season Leclerc)

Top drivers for me:
Ham / Ricciardo
Max / Leclerc / Hulk
Vettel
The rest
Is it not possible that your viewpoint may be the incorrect one if it differs from everyone else?
Not from where I sit.

For the next Senna, Max has zero pole positions. (when Dan grabbed 3 as his team mate) We haven't seen him under extreme pressure to deliver on a title yet.
And from what I have seen he makes far too many mistakes for a driver in his 5th year in F1.
He should have won China and Brazil 2018, but was careless.
Even in his great drive in the wet in Brazil, at one point he lost it down the straight and it was a miracle that his car didn't hit a wall.
He drives far too close to the edge at every opportunity. So he is either hero or zero.
If he backs off from his ultimate pace a little, then maybe he will lose part of his edge.

Unless there is a Honda miracle, I don't see him winning a title in the the next 2 seasons, and then it will be a gamble heading into 2021 of which will be the team to beat.
Leclerc has a far better shot at a title either this year or next.
I should have just stopped reading at the bolded part..
I don't see what any of what follows has to do with race pace.
Ok, based on that, do you know who I think had great race pace?
Maldonado.

What is clear from Melbourne with the fastest lap point, that all drivers are holding back throughout the race. How can Max or Bottas knock considerable time off their best just to get an extra point?

Based on that, I think you have to factor in race craft as well in assessing race pace, especially the likelihood of reaching the end unscathed.
So everything I wrote is relevant.

If you want to talk about who is fastest over 1 lap, then that might be closer to what you are referring to as race pace.
I would say that single lap pace and race pace are two very different things. A driver may put in a very fast lap but compromise his tyres too much and thereby run a slower race, for example. Race pace is about how consistently quick a driver can be

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Re: Race Pace Pecking Order...?

Post by Randine »

Zoue wrote:
Randine wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Randine wrote:

I should have just stopped reading at the bolded part..
I don't see what any of what follows has to do with race pace.
Ok, based on that, do you know who I think had great race pace?
Maldonado.

What is clear from Melbourne with the fastest lap point, that all drivers are holding back throughout the race. How can Max or Bottas knock considerable time off their best just to get an extra point?

Based on that, I think you have to factor in race craft as well in assessing race pace, especially the likelihood of reaching the end unscathed.
So everything I wrote is relevant.

If you want to talk about who is fastest over 1 lap, then that might be closer to what you are referring to as race pace.
I would say that single lap pace and race pace are two very different things. A driver may put in a very fast lap but compromise his tyres too much and thereby run a slower race, for example. Race pace is about how consistently quick a driver can be
Based on that, I could only rate 3 drivers. If you throw out whether they are likely to cause an incident etc, I feel I have only seen enough laps to say (have been watching F1 for 40 years)

Ham is quicker than Vettel who is quicker than Raikkonen.

Everyone else, reliability of engines and being in slow cars that are hard to overtake make it almost impossible to judge.
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Re: Race Pace Pecking Order...?

Post by Zoue »

Randine wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Randine wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Randine wrote:

I should have just stopped reading at the bolded part..
I don't see what any of what follows has to do with race pace.
Ok, based on that, do you know who I think had great race pace?
Maldonado.

What is clear from Melbourne with the fastest lap point, that all drivers are holding back throughout the race. How can Max or Bottas knock considerable time off their best just to get an extra point?

Based on that, I think you have to factor in race craft as well in assessing race pace, especially the likelihood of reaching the end unscathed.
So everything I wrote is relevant.

If you want to talk about who is fastest over 1 lap, then that might be closer to what you are referring to as race pace.
I would say that single lap pace and race pace are two very different things. A driver may put in a very fast lap but compromise his tyres too much and thereby run a slower race, for example. Race pace is about how consistently quick a driver can be
Based on that, I could only rate 3 drivers. If you throw out whether they are likely to cause an incident etc, I feel I have only seen enough laps to say (have been watching F1 for 40 years)

Ham is quicker than Vettel who is quicker than Raikkonen.

Everyone else, reliability of engines and being in slow cars that are hard to overtake make it almost impossible to judge.
I would agree that Vettel has shown himself to be quicker than Kimi, in the same way that Hamilton has shown himself to be quicker than Bottas. Personally I don't see how it's possible to judge whether Hamilton has better race pace than Vettel

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Re: Race Pace Pecking Order...?

Post by red_alert »

Rather than comparing drivers directly, compare drivers to themselves. Look at their race lap times, compare to their qualification time. How consistent are their race lap times. Create some rating/scoring system.
Then compare drivers score.

Even then its bias of course the guy out in front will have been race pace then someone in traffic. Its basically impossible without a ton of data. Otherwise continue speculating.
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