Unpopular opinions (2019)

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Exediron
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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by Exediron »

KingVoid wrote:I don’t think so personally. Senna began karting at the age of four. His fitness levels and dedication to the sport were above anyone else at the time. I think Senna was so far ahead of his time that he could compete with modern drivers.

The same goes for Schumacher. I mean, Barrichello was only slightly slower than Button as teammates. Schumi also held a bigger qualifying advantage over Massa than Alonso did. From those two comparisons alone, we can estimate how quick Schumacher was relative to the rest of the field.

I think that Senna, Schumacher and maybe Hakkinen are the only 90s drivers who would not look out of their depth today.
I personally think Schumacher was actually enough better than Senna that Senna believed he was cheating. Schumacher was the first driver I'd classify as truly 'modern', with Senna a step behind on that development curve. Schumacher combined Senna-level talent with Prost-level attention to setup and a dedication to training beyond either of them, and he made the model for everyone who came after.
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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by Covalent »

Option or Prime wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:Sound like Verstappen signed with Red Bull before a Mercedes offer was on the table. I strongly doubt Mercedes made any serious approach, though I have no doubt conversations took place. Similar conversations have almost certainly took place with Ferrari too.
Thats true, however, he knew he had interest from Mercedes yet plumped for RB depends on the offer of course but JV must have had a big say at the time. Not sure why, surely you would jump at the chance of being with the currently most successful team?
Which is partly why I dont believe there was ever a serious offer made. Verstappen is undoubtedly top of Mercedes list as a replacement for Hamilton but for now Hamilton-Bottas gives them everything they need.
Are we sure this is the case? Ocon looks set to return to Mercedes after his Renault contract, then over on the "McLaren to change engines again???" thread I read that Norris has now switched to Mercedes management. What can be be concluded from that I wonder?
That they are running out of young prospects to replace an ageing Hamilton.

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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by Option or Prime »

Covalent wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:Sound like Verstappen signed with Red Bull before a Mercedes offer was on the table. I strongly doubt Mercedes made any serious approach, though I have no doubt conversations took place. Similar conversations have almost certainly took place with Ferrari too.
Thats true, however, he knew he had interest from Mercedes yet plumped for RB depends on the offer of course but JV must have had a big say at the time. Not sure why, surely you would jump at the chance of being with the currently most successful team?
Which is partly why I dont believe there was ever a serious offer made. Verstappen is undoubtedly top of Mercedes list as a replacement for Hamilton but for now Hamilton-Bottas gives them everything they need.
Are we sure this is the case? Ocon looks set to return to Mercedes after his Renault contract, then over on the "McLaren to change engines again???" thread I read that Norris has now switched to Mercedes management. What can be be concluded from that I wonder?
That they are running out of young prospects to replace an ageing Hamilton.
Ocon, Russell, Norris means out of options?

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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by Fiki »

KingVoid wrote:Apart from Senna, I don’t believe that any driver who made his debut before 1990 would be good enough to drive in Formula 1 today. Senna was the first ever “modern” driver, that’s why he looked so far above his peers.

Senna humiliated Prost in qualifying by the same margins Hulkenberg beat Palmer by. That was the difference between the best and second best driver of the 1980s.

The grid today is much closer and more competitive.
Senna and Schumacher followed in the footsteps of those who went before. Stewart introduced advanced and specific physical preparation, Lauda and his physio/trainer took this further. If you look at it chronologically, that makes Stewart the first modern driver, with one important difference: downforce levels. They would only become a problem around 1980.

I remember more than one driver of the '80s saying that driving a F1 car was the best training around, and surely we all remember Schumacher's limitless testing? That had also a massive influence on his technical insight and development, obviously.

The biggest surprise to me in the '80s was that Senna found he wasn't physically capable of making the transition from F3 to F1 without massively increased physical preparation. And he only realized this when active in F1, so calling him the first modern driver is wrong on two counts.
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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by Covalent »

Option or Prime wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Thats true, however, he knew he had interest from Mercedes yet plumped for RB depends on the offer of course but JV must have had a big say at the time. Not sure why, surely you would jump at the chance of being with the currently most successful team?
Which is partly why I dont believe there was ever a serious offer made. Verstappen is undoubtedly top of Mercedes list as a replacement for Hamilton but for now Hamilton-Bottas gives them everything they need.
Are we sure this is the case? Ocon looks set to return to Mercedes after his Renault contract, then over on the "McLaren to change engines again???" thread I read that Norris has now switched to Mercedes management. What can be be concluded from that I wonder?
That they are running out of young prospects to replace an ageing Hamilton.
Ocon, Russell, Norris means out of options?
They only had Russell.

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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by Option or Prime »

Option or Prime wrote:Ocon, Russell, Norris means out of options?
Covalent wrote:They only had Russell.
Why the past tense I thought Ocon was still involved with Mercedes or are you saying he has burnt his bridges?

Edit: Irrelevant as just read on here the Norris is not managed by Merc. Ocon is though.

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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by DOLOMITE »

Option or Prime wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:Ocon, Russell, Norris means out of options?
Covalent wrote:They only had Russell.
Why the past tense I thought Ocon was still involved with Mercedes or are you saying he has burnt his bridges?

Edit: Irrelevant as just read on here the Norris is not managed by Merc. Ocon is though.
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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by JN23 »

DOLOMITE wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:Ocon, Russell, Norris means out of options?
Covalent wrote:They only had Russell.
Why the past tense I thought Ocon was still involved with Mercedes or are you saying he has burnt his bridges?

Edit: Irrelevant as just read on here the Norris is not managed by Merc. Ocon is though.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/lando-nor ... es-report/
Norris' management have said this is false. Link in the other thread.

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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by Option or Prime »

Yes, I did edit the post to reflect that a good wile back!

All a bit odd as the above link says Ocon is not part of the Mercedes young driver program whereas the refuting link says Ocon is part of the Mercedes young driver program.

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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by mikeyg123 »

Despite holding a record amount of poles I think qualifying is comparatively one of Hamilton's weaknesses.

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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by JN23 »

mikeyg123 wrote:Despite holding a record amount of poles I think qualifying is comparatively one of Hamilton's weaknesses.
What makes you think that?

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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by mikeyg123 »

JN23 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Despite holding a record amount of poles I think qualifying is comparatively one of Hamilton's weaknesses.
What makes you think that?
He gets outqualifued by his team mate way more often than anyone else you might call an absolute top qualifier.

He's faster than his team mate in races more often than he is in qualifying.

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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

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mikeyg123 wrote:Despite holding a record amount of poles I think qualifying is comparatively one of Hamilton's weaknesses.
I think this is completely true. Putting aside Button, Hamilton has never had the same advantage in qualifying over his teammates as he has in the races. We've seen Alonso be able to match him on one-lap pace (back in 2007, admittedly), Rosberg match him on one-lap pace, and now Bottas come closer than you'd expect for a driver who isn't rated among the very top. On race day, however (with the exception of Alonso, but again that was a long time ago) Hamilton has left them all behind.

Nobody would say he's a bad qualifier, but I certainly don't see it as his strongest attribute.
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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by FormulaFun »

Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Despite holding a record amount of poles I think qualifying is comparatively one of Hamilton's weaknesses.
I think this is completely true. Putting aside Button, Hamilton has never had the same advantage in qualifying over his teammates as he has in the races. We've seen Alonso be able to match him on one-lap pace (back in 2007, admittedly), Rosberg match him on one-lap pace, and now Bottas come closer than you'd expect for a driver who isn't rated among the very top. On race day, however (with the exception of Alonso, but again that was a long time ago) Hamilton has left them all behind.

Nobody would say he's a bad qualifier, but I certainly don't see it as his strongest attribute.
I agree, I think Hamilton's best attribute is his wheel to wheel race craft. Also he has very consistent race pace, and hilariously one of his main strengths is his tyre and fuel management (considering how we used to endlessly hear that he was hard on this tyres and fuel), also he is probably the best driver on the grid in the wet, which is kind of what won him the 2008 and 2018 wdcs, or at least played a large part in it. However I think the reason that he is considered a qualifying king is that occasionally, maybe like ~5 times a season he will put in a lap that demolishes his team mate and is seemingly unbeatable

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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by mikeyg123 »

FormulaFun wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Despite holding a record amount of poles I think qualifying is comparatively one of Hamilton's weaknesses.
I think this is completely true. Putting aside Button, Hamilton has never had the same advantage in qualifying over his teammates as he has in the races. We've seen Alonso be able to match him on one-lap pace (back in 2007, admittedly), Rosberg match him on one-lap pace, and now Bottas come closer than you'd expect for a driver who isn't rated among the very top. On race day, however (with the exception of Alonso, but again that was a long time ago) Hamilton has left them all behind.

Nobody would say he's a bad qualifier, but I certainly don't see it as his strongest attribute.
I agree, I think Hamilton's best attribute is his wheel to wheel race craft. Also he has very consistent race pace, and hilariously one of his main strengths is his tyre and fuel management (considering how we used to endlessly hear that he was hard on this tyres and fuel), also he is probably the best driver on the grid in the wet, which is kind of what won him the 2008 and 2018 wdcs, or at least played a large part in it. However I think the reason that he is considered a qualifying king is that occasionally, maybe like ~5 times a season he will put in a lap that demolishes his team mate and is seemingly unbeatable
Hamilton is probably the best I've ever seen at risk analysis whilst racing. What's most impressive about that is that it's not something that comes naturally to him. He's had to learn it. Back in 2008 he was very much a Verstappen style driver. Brilliant race pace, super aggressive with a mistake in him. Over time he has evolved. The race pace remains and he is still capable of a superb overtake but has learnt when to push and when to hold back.

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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by Johnson »

Hamiltons qualifying pace is great, I don’t think there is another driver in his era who is overall better. Maybe Verstappen is currently better over 1 lap but he is 12 years younger than Hamilton.

However, I would agree its not his strongest attribute but one thing that is important to point out is that he has raced his entire career in the era of you race your qualifying setup. As apposed to Senna and the majority of Schumachers first career. Nico Rosberg out qualified Hamilton in 2014, marginally, but come race day it was the biggest gap they ever had a as team mates. Similarly Kovalainen was surprisingly close in quite a few races and them thrashed on race day and we see something slightly similar with Bottas now. So the setup is always a compromise, Nico switched his focus to more race setup in 2015 and got out qualified 11-1 in the first 12 races. So I think its harder to judge the modern drivers in that respect.

It’s hard to detect how much is setup and how much is Hamiltons relative strengths in qualifying or race pace. I think its probably a bit of both.

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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by Johnson »

Since we have a point for fastest lap, lets have a point for pole position now at least. That would spice up qualifying even more.

Previously when a win was 10 points they didn’t want to do this as the title could be won on the saturday. But now that a win is 25 points, mathematically it is much more unlikely for a single point to secure the title these days.

If that is such a big concern, then make it you only get the point for pole if you finish the race.

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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by Invade »

I'm even for 3 points for pole, 2 for P2 and 1 for P3.

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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by mikeyg123 »

Johnson wrote:Since we have a point for fastest lap, lets have a point for pole position now at least. That would spice up qualifying even more.

Previously when a win was 10 points they didn’t want to do this as the title could be won on the saturday. But now that a win is 25 points, mathematically it is much more unlikely for a single point to secure the title these days.

If that is such a big concern, then make it you only get the point for pole if you finish the race.
I think pole is already worth too much as it is.

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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by Invade »

Shouldn't be the case come 2021 should the new regs have the expected effects. Then race pace will be especially important.

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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by Jezza13 »

The point for fastest lap is a farce & a gimmick that adds absolutely nothing to the spectacle of the sport.
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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by mikeyg123 »

Jezza13 wrote:The point for fastest lap is a farce & a gimmick that adds absolutely nothing to the spectacle of the sport.
How is it a gimmick?

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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by Exediron »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:The point for fastest lap is a farce & a gimmick that adds absolutely nothing to the spectacle of the sport.
How is it a gimmick?
Because the fastest lap doesn't occur organically anymore and is purely a result of circumstance.
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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by Asphalt_World »

Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:The point for fastest lap is a farce & a gimmick that adds absolutely nothing to the spectacle of the sport.
How is it a gimmick?
Because the fastest lap doesn't occur organically anymore and is purely a result of circumstance.
I agree. Has anyone seriously got the least bit excited when a driver decides to stop for new tyres near the end to get a single point for fastest lap? I mean, if it's your favourite driver then of course the point is pleasing, but there's nothing interesting about how it's often gained.
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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by BMWSauber84 »

Jezza13 wrote:The point for fastest lap is a farce & a gimmick that adds absolutely nothing to the spectacle of the sport.
I disagree. It's a nice little subplot to races. Admittedly it becomes less interesting when someone gets a 'free stop' to do it. But we may one day see a leader bin it while going for fastest lap.

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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by Asphalt_World »

BMWSauber84 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:The point for fastest lap is a farce & a gimmick that adds absolutely nothing to the spectacle of the sport.
I disagree. It's a nice little subplot to races. Admittedly it becomes less interesting when someone gets a 'free stop' to do it. But we may one day see a leader bin it while going for fastest lap.
Sub plot, to what? I'm sure if it was the final race of the season and 1 point would make the difference of who won the WDC, it would be bloody interesting. Other than that, it ranks far below the battles down the field for me, even those out of the points. At least they're battling rivals, not simply making space on the track for a single hot lap.
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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by Covalent »

Even in the worst case scenario where a driver has time for a free stop and does it only to get the fastest lap, it's still better than the alternative where exactly nothing happens.

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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by Asphalt_World »

Covalent wrote:Even in the worst case scenario where a driver has time for a free stop and does it only to get the fastest lap, it's still better than the alternative where exactly nothing happens.
Better in what way though. It's not like the director suddenly focuses in on it. We tend to just see the mark appear next to a drivers name somewhere down the top 10 list.
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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

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Asphalt_World wrote:
Covalent wrote:Even in the worst case scenario where a driver has time for a free stop and does it only to get the fastest lap, it's still better than the alternative where exactly nothing happens.
Better in what way though. It's not like the director suddenly focuses in on it. We tend to just see the mark appear next to a drivers name somewhere down the top 10 list.
While that may be true for the midfield, quite often it's a driver from the top 3 teams that does it and then we usually get coverage of it as well. I'd say that's the case more often than not, but could be wrong.

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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by Siao7 »

Well, it doesn't hurt anyone, so instead of counting down laps and saving engine and tyres, we may have some excitement, even if it is not everyone's cup of tea. The fastest lap would always happen at the end of the race anyway, when the car is at it's lightest. So why not slap on some tyres and go for it? I always found it interesting to see how close they could get to quali times for example. We may just see a blip on the screen as spectators, but all points count and they get bragging rights too I guess. It was only 3 years ago that the WDC was decided by a mere 5 points, so it can make a difference.

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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by Fiki »

Siao7 wrote:It was only 3 years ago that the WDC was decided by a mere 5 points, so it can make a difference.
I think fastest lap should be functional, not just showbusiness. Which is why I think your remark is a very good argument against giving a point for it. Prost once lost the title by half a point, and that was fine.
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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by Siao7 »

Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote:It was only 3 years ago that the WDC was decided by a mere 5 points, so it can make a difference.
I think fastest lap should be functional, not just showbusiness. Which is why I think your remark is a very good argument against giving a point for it. Prost once lost the title by half a point, and that was fine.
Touche, it works both ways!!!

I have to ask though, what do you mean by functional?

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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

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Asphalt_World wrote:
Covalent wrote:Even in the worst case scenario where a driver has time for a free stop and does it only to get the fastest lap, it's still better than the alternative where exactly nothing happens.
Better in what way though. It's not like the director suddenly focuses in on it. We tend to just see the mark appear next to a drivers name somewhere down the top 10 list.
Lewis' last lap in Britain springs to mind.

It's not going to be a crowd pleaser every race, but this one was pretty great to watch.
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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by Mort Canard »

Yellowbin74 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Covalent wrote:Even in the worst case scenario where a driver has time for a free stop and does it only to get the fastest lap, it's still better than the alternative where exactly nothing happens.
Better in what way though. It's not like the director suddenly focuses in on it. We tend to just see the mark appear next to a drivers name somewhere down the top 10 list.
Lewis' last lap in Britain springs to mind.

It's not going to be a crowd pleaser every race, but this one was pretty great to watch.
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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by Fiki »

Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote:It was only 3 years ago that the WDC was decided by a mere 5 points, so it can make a difference.
I think fastest lap should be functional, not just showbusiness. Which is why I think your remark is a very good argument against giving a point for it. Prost once lost the title by half a point, and that was fine.
Touche, it works both ways!!!

I have to ask though, what do you mean by functional?
Functional in that the driver scoring fastest lap is actually closing a gap to the car in front, or creating one ahead of a car that is threatening. Not first create a gap by dropping back and making a pitstop, simply because a point is available to only a few cars.
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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by Siao7 »

Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote:It was only 3 years ago that the WDC was decided by a mere 5 points, so it can make a difference.
I think fastest lap should be functional, not just showbusiness. Which is why I think your remark is a very good argument against giving a point for it. Prost once lost the title by half a point, and that was fine.
Touche, it works both ways!!!

I have to ask though, what do you mean by functional?
Functional in that the driver scoring fastest lap is actually closing a gap to the car in front, or creating one ahead of a car that is threatening. Not first create a gap by dropping back and making a pitstop, simply because a point is available to only a few cars.
I see. Creating gaps is part of the game though, they all do it for undercuts, overcuts, holding someone back for their team mate, etc. So why is it so strange to do it for this?

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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by BMWSauber84 »

Asphalt_World wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:The point for fastest lap is a farce & a gimmick that adds absolutely nothing to the spectacle of the sport.
I disagree. It's a nice little subplot to races. Admittedly it becomes less interesting when someone gets a 'free stop' to do it. But we may one day see a leader bin it while going for fastest lap.
Sub plot, to what? I'm sure if it was the final race of the season and 1 point would make the difference of who won the WDC, it would be bloody interesting. Other than that, it ranks far below the battles down the field for me, even those out of the points. At least they're battling rivals, not simply making space on the track for a single hot lap.
It's something mildly interesting that happens at the front of the race when the big points are often settled. It replaces nothing with something essentially. It may not be a massively interesting something but can provide intrigue on occasion.

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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by F1 Racer »

BMWSauber84 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:The point for fastest lap is a farce & a gimmick that adds absolutely nothing to the spectacle of the sport.
I disagree. It's a nice little subplot to races. Admittedly it becomes less interesting when someone gets a 'free stop' to do it. But we may one day see a leader bin it while going for fastest lap.
Sub plot, to what? I'm sure if it was the final race of the season and 1 point would make the difference of who won the WDC, it would be bloody interesting. Other than that, it ranks far below the battles down the field for me, even those out of the points. At least they're battling rivals, not simply making space on the track for a single hot lap.
It's something mildly interesting that happens at the front of the race when the big points are often settled. It replaces nothing with something essentially. It may not be a massively interesting something but can provide intrigue on occasion.
When has it provided intrigue? The driver pitting for fresh rubber has always achieved the fastest lap haven't they? Even Gasly got it just about by a fraction in the one race he went for it, when we know he has been very slow this season, so if he can get the fastest lap by putting on fresh rubber, all the other drivers can easily convert the fresh rubber into a fastest lap point. So it provides zero intrigue as far as I can see.

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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

Post by tootsie323 »

F1 Racer wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:The point for fastest lap is a farce & a gimmick that adds absolutely nothing to the spectacle of the sport.
I disagree. It's a nice little subplot to races. Admittedly it becomes less interesting when someone gets a 'free stop' to do it. But we may one day see a leader bin it while going for fastest lap.
Sub plot, to what? I'm sure if it was the final race of the season and 1 point would make the difference of who won the WDC, it would be bloody interesting. Other than that, it ranks far below the battles down the field for me, even those out of the points. At least they're battling rivals, not simply making space on the track for a single hot lap.
It's something mildly interesting that happens at the front of the race when the big points are often settled. It replaces nothing with something essentially. It may not be a massively interesting something but can provide intrigue on occasion.
When has it provided intrigue? The driver pitting for fresh rubber has always achieved the fastest lap haven't they? Even Gasly got it just about by a fraction in the one race he went for it, when we know he has been very slow this season, so if he can get the fastest lap by putting on fresh rubber, all the other drivers can easily convert the fresh rubber into a fastest lap point. So it provides zero intrigue as far as I can see.
Not always. Can't recall where, or when, it was, but I'm pretty sure that a front-runner set a fastest lap which a car further back, having put on fresh boots for that purpose, failed to better. I may be horribly wrong..!
Where I'm going, I don't need roads

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tootsie323
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Re: Unpopular opinions (2019)

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tootsie323 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:I disagree. It's a nice little subplot to races. Admittedly it becomes less interesting when someone gets a 'free stop' to do it. But we may one day see a leader bin it while going for fastest lap.
Sub plot, to what? I'm sure if it was the final race of the season and 1 point would make the difference of who won the WDC, it would be bloody interesting. Other than that, it ranks far below the battles down the field for me, even those out of the points. At least they're battling rivals, not simply making space on the track for a single hot lap.
It's something mildly interesting that happens at the front of the race when the big points are often settled. It replaces nothing with something essentially. It may not be a massively interesting something but can provide intrigue on occasion.
When has it provided intrigue? The driver pitting for fresh rubber has always achieved the fastest lap haven't they? Even Gasly got it just about by a fraction in the one race he went for it, when we know he has been very slow this season, so if he can get the fastest lap by putting on fresh rubber, all the other drivers can easily convert the fresh rubber into a fastest lap point. So it provides zero intrigue as far as I can see.
Not always. Can't recall where, or when, it was, but I'm pretty sure that a front-runner set a fastest lap which a car further back, having put on fresh boots for that purpose, failed to better. I may be horribly wrong..!
I am wrong! It was Russia. Hamilton put in a fastest lap on his mediums and LeClerc, having been unsuccessful in passing Bottas on relatively new softs, decided to give it a go. He didn't put those tyres on for then purpose of fastest lap, and had been in Bottas' dirty air for a while before he gave it a go. Excuse me whilst I drop off briefly to facepalm myself.
Where I'm going, I don't need roads

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