Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Forum rules
Please read the forum rules
Zoue
Posts: 25158
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by Zoue »

trento wrote:
Zoue wrote:
trento wrote:With the huge gap to Hulkenberg, could Ricciardo be fired?
what, from Free Practice times? :?
Melbourne too. It's been 5 FPs and Ric is still much slower. Gasly is worse
In Melbourne qualifying he was less than one hundredth of a second slower than Hulk. I think it's a bit early to panic just yet

kleefton
Posts: 4015
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by kleefton »

trento wrote:With the huge gap to Hulkenberg, could Ricciardo be fired?

Lol. It’s hard to come on a mans turf and think you can start dominating straight away. And Hulk has always been very quick in one lap. Don’t believe he’s ever been out qualified by a teammate ever over a season. Ricciardo has been in the Redbull family ever since he got to f1. He’s still learning the Renault team imo. So some growing pains are to be expected. I still expect him to outrace hulk even this year. We shall see.

Bacus
Posts: 977
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 3:21 pm

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by Bacus »

Zoue wrote:
trento wrote:
Zoue wrote:
trento wrote:With the huge gap to Hulkenberg, could Ricciardo be fired?
what, from Free Practice times? :?
Melbourne too. It's been 5 FPs and Ric is still much slower. Gasly is worse
In Melbourne qualifying he was less than one hundredth of a second slower than Hulk. I think it's a bit early to panic just yet
As I remember Hulk had some sort of the problem with his car in his final run, otherwise he said he should've been faster.

User avatar
Alienturnedhuman
Posts: 3940
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:39 pm

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Well that settled that one then.


pokerman
Posts: 35596
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by pokerman »

Bacus wrote:
Zoue wrote:
trento wrote:
Zoue wrote:
trento wrote:With the huge gap to Hulkenberg, could Ricciardo be fired?
what, from Free Practice times? :?
Melbourne too. It's been 5 FPs and Ric is still much slower. Gasly is worse
In Melbourne qualifying he was less than one hundredth of a second slower than Hulk. I think it's a bit early to panic just yet
As I remember Hulk had some sort of the problem with his car in his final run, otherwise he said he should've been faster.
Yes he had an electrical problem.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 94 (1st)
Pole Positions: 97 (1st)
Podiums: 163 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

pokerman
Posts: 35596
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by pokerman »

Yes his engine kept going into safe mode, Ricciardo's being somewhat fortunate here with the Hulk being hampered with PU problems in both qualifying sessions this year saving Ricciardo from a considerable beating.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 94 (1st)
Pole Positions: 97 (1st)
Podiums: 163 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

iano
Posts: 368
Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 12:49 am

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by iano »

Hulk has managed to show there is some competitive pace available from the Renault car. McLaren have managed to show there is pace available from the Renault engine. Ricciardo has yet to really demonstrate either. Something hasn't clicked, or there is some underlying problem. It is early yet but he does need to lift.

sandman1347
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by sandman1347 »

The main area where Ricciardo's timing is bad is that the new regulations have basically removed Hulk's biggest weakness; his size. With the new driver and seat weight regs; Hulkenberg is not giving up that extra ballast to his rivals anymore and is probably gaining substantially from it (more than almost anyone else out there). This is not the year to be facing this guy in equal machinery. In terms of just driving talent; he's probably up there among the top 5-6 on the grid at the moment but his performance was always adversely affected by the weight penalty.

KingVoid
Posts: 2885
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by KingVoid »

I also feel that Ricciardo was at his peak from 2014-2016 and has lost something since the new high-downforce cars were introduced, while Hulkenberg might be driving better than ever before.

I don’t have any solid evidence to prove this, but it’s just a hunch.

pokerman
Posts: 35596
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by pokerman »

Some interesting posts, I'm not entirely convinced about the affect of performance because of the new ballast rules, I think that was brought in more to stop certain drivers starving themselves rather than to equalise driver performance?

What I see happening doesn't overly surprise me, the performance gap between Ricciardo and Verstappen when related to the gap between Vettel and Ricciardo suggested that Verstappen was by far the fastest driver in F1, as a Hamilton fan I found that hard to believe and started to question the 2014 season also given Vettel's performance level since then.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 94 (1st)
Pole Positions: 97 (1st)
Podiums: 163 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

JN23
Posts: 2556
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by JN23 »

KingVoid wrote:I also feel that Ricciardo was at his peak from 2014-2016 and has lost something since the new high-downforce cars were introduced, while Hulkenberg might be driving better than ever before.

I don’t have any solid evidence to prove this, but it’s just a hunch.
Definitely agree with your hunch on the first part of your post. Unsure about Hulkenberg thing tbh.

Interesting how this plays out over the season - I know we're only two races in - but does this mean Hulkenberg was underrated or Ricciardo was overrated? Both maybe.

KingVoid
Posts: 2885
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by KingVoid »

Who do you guys think is a better driver?

Daniel Ricciardo
Nico Rosberg

I asked this question to my friend the other day (the only person I know irl who watches F1 as religiously as I do) and he looked at me flabbergasted. It’s like he never even thought about comparing these two drivers.

User avatar
Exediron
Posts: 8214
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Location: Michigan, USA
Contact:

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by Exediron »

KingVoid wrote:Who do you guys think is a better driver?

Daniel Ricciardo
Nico Rosberg

I asked this question to my friend the other day (the only person I know irl who watches F1 as religiously as I do) and he looked at me flabbergasted. It’s like he never even thought about comparing these two drivers.
I think Ricciardo is a better racer any day of the week. As far as who's the more technically skilled, ultimately faster driver - hard to say. I expect they're pretty close, but I'd be inclined to give Rosberg a slight edge in out-and-out speed.
PICK 10 COMPETITION (6 wins, 18 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

User avatar
Invade
Posts: 3212
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by Invade »

KingVoid wrote:Who do you guys think is a better driver?

Daniel Ricciardo
Nico Rosberg

I asked this question to my friend the other day (the only person I know irl who watches F1 as religiously as I do) and he looked at me flabbergasted. It’s like he never even thought about comparing these two drivers.
It's not obvious to me right now given how outmatched Ricciardo often looked against Verstappen regarding race pace. I don't think Ricciardo produces consistent and reliable race pace like Verstappen, Hamilton, Vettel but it could just be that Verstappen is so good that he made Ricciardo look bad in that regard. When thinking back to a race like Malaysia 2017 though, I feel like RBR had the pace for a 1-2 and should have got it and that Ricc just doesn't have that Lewis and Max level race pace often enough. Rosberg looked similar against Hamilton.

By race craft, I'd give Ricciardo a clear edge. In qualifying it's probably close. Ricciardo was able to give Vettel the business and Rosberg was able to best Hamilton also over the course of a season in which both were Championship contenders.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's not that clear-cut. If Ricciardo had the same opportunity as Rosberg, he could well be a World Champion. It's been tricky to decide whether to rate Ricciardo in the highest group or the group below the elite and the battle with Hulkenberg should tell us a lot in 2019. Perhaps generally Ricciardo is overrated and N.Rosberg is underrated, but then again depending on the forum or chat group there seem to be different hivemind takes on Rosberg as a driver, with many saying that the last couple of seasons show he was on Vettel's level.

mikeyg123
Posts: 18017
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by mikeyg123 »

KingVoid wrote:Who do you guys think is a better driver?

Daniel Ricciardo
Nico Rosberg

I asked this question to my friend the other day (the only person I know irl who watches F1 as religiously as I do) and he looked at me flabbergasted. It’s like he never even thought about comparing these two drivers.
Ultimate pace is possibly close but as an all rounder Ricciardo for me hands down.

KingVoid
Posts: 2885
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by KingVoid »

mikeyg123 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:Who do you guys think is a better driver?

Daniel Ricciardo
Nico Rosberg

I asked this question to my friend the other day (the only person I know irl who watches F1 as religiously as I do) and he looked at me flabbergasted. It’s like he never even thought about comparing these two drivers.
Ultimate pace is possibly close but as an all rounder Ricciardo for me hands down.
In that case, how close do you think that Ricciardo is to Hamilton?

mikeyg123
Posts: 18017
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by mikeyg123 »

KingVoid wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:Who do you guys think is a better driver?

Daniel Ricciardo
Nico Rosberg

I asked this question to my friend the other day (the only person I know irl who watches F1 as religiously as I do) and he looked at me flabbergasted. It’s like he never even thought about comparing these two drivers.
Ultimate pace is possibly close but as an all rounder Ricciardo for me hands down.
In that case, how close do you think that Ricciardo is to Hamilton?
A completely different sort of driver. Hamilton would have the edge pace wise. In terms of racing Hamilton is the ultimate percentage player whilst Ricciardo is a risk taker.

I think Ricciardo would have a tough job outscoring Hamilton. He would need a situation like Rosberg had. Dominant car with Hamilton having more bad luck.

iano
Posts: 368
Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 12:49 am

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by iano »

It is really difficult to compare drivers. If they have the same equipment, and the equipment is performing at its optimum, then you can make a comparison of relative performance on at a given race. But so many factors come into play, and drivers do not always drive at the same level.

It seems people judge the relative abilities of drivers as a static thing. Driver 'a' did better than driver 'b' for a period in the past, therefore driver 'a' is a better driver than driver 'b'. With driving such a confidence thing, I think ups and downs have a far bigger role than in most sports. And there is almost no sport where, when two rivals meet, the outcome is identical every time.

I suggest it is impossible to predict what the outcome will be at Renault 2019 will be at this time, or how Ricciardo will perform as a driver, given the little and imprecise data available.

We had Australia, where it seemed Mercedes had the fastest car, and perhaps Red Bull was almost as fast. At Renault Ricciardo qualified with similar pace to his team mate... but there data to suggest the Hulk may have had car problems with more impact. From the Race we learnt nothing about Ricciardo and perhaps there was still damage to Hulkenberg's car, making that also inconclusive. Turns out that what we did learn about the top 3 was all wrong, so drawing conclusions about Renault with so much less data seems crazy.

Bahrain. We learnt that is actually Ferrari with the fastest car, then Merc and still a gap to Red Bull. For Renault, Hulk again had car problems in qualifying, as possibly all was not right for Ricciardo either. Then Ricciardo had the wrong tyre strategy making comparisons difficult even if both cars were perfect....and there is evidence the cars were not fully healthy either.

So far McLaren are showing the Renault engine has potential beyond what Renault is showing. Is that drivers? Who knows! But reading too much into the tea leaves so far may be fun, but is unlikely to be accurate.

pokerman
Posts: 35596
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:Who do you guys think is a better driver?

Daniel Ricciardo
Nico Rosberg

I asked this question to my friend the other day (the only person I know irl who watches F1 as religiously as I do) and he looked at me flabbergasted. It’s like he never even thought about comparing these two drivers.
It's hard to compare with Red Bull drivers because they stay in the scheme so long and it makes cross comparison harder, I think 2 years alongside the Hulk would better define just how good he is in order to make the comparison.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 94 (1st)
Pole Positions: 97 (1st)
Podiums: 163 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

pokerman
Posts: 35596
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:Who do you guys think is a better driver?

Daniel Ricciardo
Nico Rosberg

I asked this question to my friend the other day (the only person I know irl who watches F1 as religiously as I do) and he looked at me flabbergasted. It’s like he never even thought about comparing these two drivers.
I think Ricciardo is a better racer any day of the week. As far as who's the more technically skilled, ultimately faster driver - hard to say. I expect they're pretty close, but I'd be inclined to give Rosberg a slight edge in out-and-out speed.
It will be interesting what his racecraft is going to be like in the Renault, his late breaking lunges this season have looked more clumsy than when in a Red Bull?
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 94 (1st)
Pole Positions: 97 (1st)
Podiums: 163 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

mikeyg123
Posts: 18017
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:Who do you guys think is a better driver?

Daniel Ricciardo
Nico Rosberg

I asked this question to my friend the other day (the only person I know irl who watches F1 as religiously as I do) and he looked at me flabbergasted. It’s like he never even thought about comparing these two drivers.
I think Ricciardo is a better racer any day of the week. As far as who's the more technically skilled, ultimately faster driver - hard to say. I expect they're pretty close, but I'd be inclined to give Rosberg a slight edge in out-and-out speed.
It will be interesting what his racecraft is going to be like in the Renault, his late breaking lunges this season have looked more clumsy than when in a Red Bull?
Has he done any yet? He hit Hulkenberg in Bahrain but that wasn't a late lunge. Hulk was overtaking him and he clumsily left his nose in the way.

pokerman
Posts: 35596
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:Who do you guys think is a better driver?

Daniel Ricciardo
Nico Rosberg

I asked this question to my friend the other day (the only person I know irl who watches F1 as religiously as I do) and he looked at me flabbergasted. It’s like he never even thought about comparing these two drivers.
I think Ricciardo is a better racer any day of the week. As far as who's the more technically skilled, ultimately faster driver - hard to say. I expect they're pretty close, but I'd be inclined to give Rosberg a slight edge in out-and-out speed.
It will be interesting what his racecraft is going to be like in the Renault, his late breaking lunges this season have looked more clumsy than when in a Red Bull?
Has he done any yet? He hit Hulkenberg in Bahrain but that wasn't a late lunge. Hulk was overtaking him and he clumsily left his nose in the way.
Hulk left him loads of room going right to the edge of the track yet Ricciardo still managed to hit him, I wouldn't class that as good racecraft?

Ricciardo himself as said he's still driving the Renault like it's a Red Bull and is still having to adjust to the limitations of the Renault in comparison.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 94 (1st)
Pole Positions: 97 (1st)
Podiums: 163 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

mikeyg123
Posts: 18017
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:Who do you guys think is a better driver?

Daniel Ricciardo
Nico Rosberg

I asked this question to my friend the other day (the only person I know irl who watches F1 as religiously as I do) and he looked at me flabbergasted. It’s like he never even thought about comparing these two drivers.
I think Ricciardo is a better racer any day of the week. As far as who's the more technically skilled, ultimately faster driver - hard to say. I expect they're pretty close, but I'd be inclined to give Rosberg a slight edge in out-and-out speed.
It will be interesting what his racecraft is going to be like in the Renault, his late breaking lunges this season have looked more clumsy than when in a Red Bull?
Has he done any yet? He hit Hulkenberg in Bahrain but that wasn't a late lunge. Hulk was overtaking him and he clumsily left his nose in the way.
Hulk left him loads of room going right to the edge of the track yet Ricciardo still managed to hit him, I wouldn't class that as good racecraft?

Ricciardo himself as said he's still driving the Renault like it's a Red Bull and is still having to adjust to the limitations of the Renault in comparison.
I never said it was good racecraft? I literally said it was clumsy and Ricciardo left his nose in the way.

You said his late breaking lunges were looking more clumsy. I asked if we had seen any yet to judge on? Have we?

kleefton
Posts: 4015
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by kleefton »

I think what Poker meant to say is that he tried to late brake to defend his position but failed as he misjudged it completely and hit Hulk.

But I find Ricciardo's excuse trying to compare the Renault to the Redbull quite strange. These guys basically drive to the limit of the equiment they are given, they shouldn't be driving to the limit of last year's equipment. I now think he may struggle a lot against Hulk.

mikeyg123
Posts: 18017
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by mikeyg123 »

kleefton wrote:I think what Poker meant to say is that he tried to late brake to defend his position but failed as he misjudged it completely and hit Hulk.

But I find Ricciardo's excuse trying to compare the Renault to the Redbull quite strange. These guys basically drive to the limit of the equiment they are given, they shouldn't be driving to the limit of last year's equipment. I now think he may struggle a lot against Hulk.
He certainly is currently.

I don't think he was trying to defend against Hulk. He just totally misjudged it. A mistake for sure.

F1 Racer
Posts: 827
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:53 am

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by F1 Racer »

I've always thought that there is no definitive proof that Ricciardo has ever been a top tier driver. He beat Vettel who we assumed, being a 4 time WDC, that he was possibly the next Senna/Schumacher/Hamilton, and he certainly could have been but he only really had to beat Webber who was very poor over those seasons so there was still some slight doubt even then, (I don't think MW even came second in the WDC during that period, even though the Red Bull was the class of the field for at least two of those four seasons and even Rubens managed runner up spots in dominant machinery in 2002 and 2004).

Then DR beats Seb in 2014 so at that point if we assume that Seb is definitely Tier One from his WDC's, this is good evidence that DR is a top driver too, (although wasn't he struggling to beat Vergne to get the Red Bull drive, some thought he was lucky to get it and he didn't outclass JEV from what I recall, so perhaps that was a Gasly/Hartly situation that DR benefitted from).

Now if Seb continues to perform like a top champion from 2015 to present, and DR doesn't get outclassed by any team mates in that period, then this helps DR's rep. and he is still very likely to be top tier. However instead Seb has been a bit disappointing, possibly performing like a Tier Two driver recently, and he always wanted an average Kimi to stay in the team as he wanted comfort in beating someone easy. Also DR gets outclassed by Verstappen during this time and so DR is forced to do a runner from competitive machinery. These factors hurt DR.

So DR has it all to prove still in my opinion, and if rookie Leclerc gets the beating of Seb this year, and DR struggles to beat Hulk, then I would say on the balance of information that we have over DR's career so far, there would be more credence to saying that DR is firmly an (overpaid) Tier Two driver than an unlucky Tier One driver that keeps being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Just like Jean Alesi, there was always an argument that he was a Tier One driver that was just unlucky with career choices and often in the wrong place at the wrong time, but really looking at his career on the whole, he was likely just a Tier Two driver.

Right now, I'm slightly conflicted but I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of the season I feel DR is 100% Tier Two at best due to far more evidence pointing to that notion, with just the 2014 season pointing to him being a great.

F1 Racer
Posts: 827
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:53 am

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by F1 Racer »

pokerman wrote:Some interesting posts, I'm not entirely convinced about the affect of performance because of the new ballast rules, I think that was brought in more to stop certain drivers starving themselves rather than to equalise driver performance?

What I see happening doesn't overly surprise me, the performance gap between Ricciardo and Verstappen when related to the gap between Vettel and Ricciardo suggested that Verstappen was by far the fastest driver in F1, as a Hamilton fan I found that hard to believe and started to question the 2014 season also given Vettel's performance level since then.
Weren't the drivers starving themselves for performance gains though? Otherwise why would they do it? Therefore the new ballast rules preventing driver starvation is one and the same with equalising driver performance.

pokerman
Posts: 35596
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote: I think Ricciardo is a better racer any day of the week. As far as who's the more technically skilled, ultimately faster driver - hard to say. I expect they're pretty close, but I'd be inclined to give Rosberg a slight edge in out-and-out speed.
It will be interesting what his racecraft is going to be like in the Renault, his late breaking lunges this season have looked more clumsy than when in a Red Bull?
Has he done any yet? He hit Hulkenberg in Bahrain but that wasn't a late lunge. Hulk was overtaking him and he clumsily left his nose in the way.
Hulk left him loads of room going right to the edge of the track yet Ricciardo still managed to hit him, I wouldn't class that as good racecraft?

Ricciardo himself as said he's still driving the Renault like it's a Red Bull and is still having to adjust to the limitations of the Renault in comparison.
I never said it was good racecraft? I literally said it was clumsy and Ricciardo left his nose in the way.

You said his late breaking lunges were looking more clumsy. I asked if we had seen any yet to judge on? Have we?
I just said with the Hulk which you described as him merely leaving his nose there were in fact he totally overran the corner before hitting the Hulk, there was another instance were he nearly ran into the back of someone who was passing him on the outside but I guess that would be a more normalised situation?
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 94 (1st)
Pole Positions: 97 (1st)
Podiums: 163 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

pokerman
Posts: 35596
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by pokerman »

F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:Some interesting posts, I'm not entirely convinced about the affect of performance because of the new ballast rules, I think that was brought in more to stop certain drivers starving themselves rather than to equalise driver performance?

What I see happening doesn't overly surprise me, the performance gap between Ricciardo and Verstappen when related to the gap between Vettel and Ricciardo suggested that Verstappen was by far the fastest driver in F1, as a Hamilton fan I found that hard to believe and started to question the 2014 season also given Vettel's performance level since then.
Weren't the drivers starving themselves for performance gains though? Otherwise why would they do it? Therefore the new ballast rules preventing driver starvation is one and the same with equalising driver performance.
There's obviously some advantage but I'm not convinced it's a massive difference only if your weight is taking up above the actual minimum weight of car + driver.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 94 (1st)
Pole Positions: 97 (1st)
Podiums: 163 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

mikeyg123
Posts: 18017
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote: I just said with the Hulk which you described as him merely leaving his nose there were in fact he totally overran the corner before hitting the Hulk, there was another instance were he nearly ran into the back of someone who was passing him on the outside but I guess that would be a more normalised situation?
Well neither are his vintage Ricciardo dive bombs which I believe you were referring to? This is him being overtaken.

It's not a big deal. I only asked because I hadn't seen any Ricciardo bombs yet.

User avatar
Badgeronimous
Posts: 904
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:57 am
Location: Scotland & Abu Dhabi

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by Badgeronimous »

pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:Some interesting posts, I'm not entirely convinced about the affect of performance because of the new ballast rules, I think that was brought in more to stop certain drivers starving themselves rather than to equalise driver performance?

What I see happening doesn't overly surprise me, the performance gap between Ricciardo and Verstappen when related to the gap between Vettel and Ricciardo suggested that Verstappen was by far the fastest driver in F1, as a Hamilton fan I found that hard to believe and started to question the 2014 season also given Vettel's performance level since then.
Weren't the drivers starving themselves for performance gains though? Otherwise why would they do it? Therefore the new ballast rules preventing driver starvation is one and the same with equalising driver performance.
There's obviously some advantage but I'm not convinced it's a massive difference only if your weight is taking up above the actual minimum weight of car + driver.
Noticable difference between bodyweight and ballast.

Theres a reason why nearly every top F1 driver of the last 40yrs has been < 1.8m and weighed < 70kg. Getting to F1 is as much about biology as talent. An average sized guy is typically too big for F1 - and whilst F1 might have ballast rules, many junior formulae and karts don't!

Hulk is 6' tall and 75kg. There is nothing particularly remarkable about his size. Just he is 6" taller and 15kg heavier than say Vettel - who is a pretty small guy.
Last edited by Badgeronimous on Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

mikeyg123
Posts: 18017
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Badgeronimous wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:Some interesting posts, I'm not entirely convinced about the affect of performance because of the new ballast rules, I think that was brought in more to stop certain drivers starving themselves rather than to equalise driver performance?

What I see happening doesn't overly surprise me, the performance gap between Ricciardo and Verstappen when related to the gap between Vettel and Ricciardo suggested that Verstappen was by far the fastest driver in F1, as a Hamilton fan I found that hard to believe and started to question the 2014 season also given Vettel's performance level since then.
Weren't the drivers starving themselves for performance gains though? Otherwise why would they do it? Therefore the new ballast rules preventing driver starvation is one and the same with equalising driver performance.
There's obviously some advantage but I'm not convinced it's a massive difference only if your weight is taking up above the actual minimum weight of car + driver.
Noticable difference between bodyweight and ballast.

Theres a reason why nearly every top F1 driver of the last 40yrs has been < 1.75m and weighed < 70kg. Getting to F1 is as much about biology as talent. An average sized guy is typically too big for F1 - and whilst F1 might have ballast rules, many junior formulae and karts don't!

Hulk is 6' tall and 75kg. There is nothing particularly remarkable about his size. Just he is 6" taller and 15kg heavier than say Vettel - who is a pretty small guy.
It's not as big of a disadvantage as it sometimes said provided the car + driver is not actually over weight.

Zoue
Posts: 25158
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by Zoue »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:Some interesting posts, I'm not entirely convinced about the affect of performance because of the new ballast rules, I think that was brought in more to stop certain drivers starving themselves rather than to equalise driver performance?

What I see happening doesn't overly surprise me, the performance gap between Ricciardo and Verstappen when related to the gap between Vettel and Ricciardo suggested that Verstappen was by far the fastest driver in F1, as a Hamilton fan I found that hard to believe and started to question the 2014 season also given Vettel's performance level since then.
Weren't the drivers starving themselves for performance gains though? Otherwise why would they do it? Therefore the new ballast rules preventing driver starvation is one and the same with equalising driver performance.
There's obviously some advantage but I'm not convinced it's a massive difference only if your weight is taking up above the actual minimum weight of car + driver.
Noticable difference between bodyweight and ballast.

Theres a reason why nearly every top F1 driver of the last 40yrs has been < 1.75m and weighed < 70kg. Getting to F1 is as much about biology as talent. An average sized guy is typically too big for F1 - and whilst F1 might have ballast rules, many junior formulae and karts don't!

Hulk is 6' tall and 75kg. There is nothing particularly remarkable about his size. Just he is 6" taller and 15kg heavier than say Vettel - who is a pretty small guy.
It's not as big of a disadvantage as it sometimes said provided the car + driver is not actually over weight.
I'm by no means technical but I was given to understand that it can actually be a noticeable (dis)advantage because of how much it affects whether teams can place ballast in the most effective way, affecting the balance and handling of the car?

mikeyg123
Posts: 18017
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Zoue wrote: I'm by no means technical but I was given to understand that it can actually be a noticeable (dis)advantage because of how much it affects whether teams can place ballast in the most effective way, affecting the balance and handling of the car?
Oh, no doubt it is a disadvantage, especially if you are carrying a lot more ballast than your team mate. From what I've heard it's almost impossible to quantify but very unlikely to ever be tenths a lap. More like hundredths.

pokerman
Posts: 35596
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote: I just said with the Hulk which you described as him merely leaving his nose there were in fact he totally overran the corner before hitting the Hulk, there was another instance were he nearly ran into the back of someone who was passing him on the outside but I guess that would be a more normalised situation?
Well neither are his vintage Ricciardo dive bombs which I believe you were referring to? This is him being overtaken.

It's not a big deal. I only asked because I hadn't seen any Ricciardo bombs yet.
Let's call it a dive bomb defence then? :)

Ricciardo himself has said he's still driving the Renault like a Red Bull carrying too much speed into the corners and messing up his exits, it's being said he's leaving 3 tenths on the table in comparison to the Hulk.

I would then extend that to his dive bomb attacks in as much as maybe the Renault will not be as user friendly in that respect?
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 94 (1st)
Pole Positions: 97 (1st)
Podiums: 163 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

pokerman
Posts: 35596
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by pokerman »

Badgeronimous wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:Some interesting posts, I'm not entirely convinced about the affect of performance because of the new ballast rules, I think that was brought in more to stop certain drivers starving themselves rather than to equalise driver performance?

What I see happening doesn't overly surprise me, the performance gap between Ricciardo and Verstappen when related to the gap between Vettel and Ricciardo suggested that Verstappen was by far the fastest driver in F1, as a Hamilton fan I found that hard to believe and started to question the 2014 season also given Vettel's performance level since then.
Weren't the drivers starving themselves for performance gains though? Otherwise why would they do it? Therefore the new ballast rules preventing driver starvation is one and the same with equalising driver performance.
There's obviously some advantage but I'm not convinced it's a massive difference only if your weight is taking up above the actual minimum weight of car + driver.
Noticable difference between bodyweight and ballast.

Theres a reason why nearly every top F1 driver of the last 40yrs has been < 1.8m and weighed < 70kg. Getting to F1 is as much about biology as talent. An average sized guy is typically too big for F1 - and whilst F1 might have ballast rules, many junior formulae and karts don't!

Hulk is 6' tall and 75kg. There is nothing particularly remarkable about his size. Just he is 6" taller and 15kg heavier than say Vettel - who is a pretty small guy.
They have minimum weight rules in karts as well, I'm not sure about the junior formulas?
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 94 (1st)
Pole Positions: 97 (1st)
Podiums: 163 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

pokerman
Posts: 35596
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote: I'm by no means technical but I was given to understand that it can actually be a noticeable (dis)advantage because of how much it affects whether teams can place ballast in the most effective way, affecting the balance and handling of the car?
Oh, no doubt it is a disadvantage, especially if you are carrying a lot more ballast than your team mate. From what I've heard it's almost impossible to quantify but very unlikely to ever be tenths a lap. More like hundredths.
Yeah that would be my thinking as well.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 94 (1st)
Pole Positions: 97 (1st)
Podiums: 163 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

mikeyg123
Posts: 18017
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote: I just said with the Hulk which you described as him merely leaving his nose there were in fact he totally overran the corner before hitting the Hulk, there was another instance were he nearly ran into the back of someone who was passing him on the outside but I guess that would be a more normalised situation?
Well neither are his vintage Ricciardo dive bombs which I believe you were referring to? This is him being overtaken.

It's not a big deal. I only asked because I hadn't seen any Ricciardo bombs yet.
Let's call it a dive bomb defence then? :)

Ricciardo himself has said he's still driving the Renault like a Red Bull carrying too much speed into the corners and messing up his exits, it's being said he's leaving 3 tenths on the table in comparison to the Hulk.

I would then extend that to his dive bomb attacks in as much as maybe the Renault will not be as user friendly in that respect?
It's possible but perhaps let's wait until it's actually happened.

Post Reply