I agree. Ricciardo and Max were close to each other so it really depends who starts ahead will also finish ahead. Probably Max was performing to his best. I really enjoyed that Ricciardo just managed to get ahead of Max and did not allow him for the record of youngest pole position. Later Max said that engine was not working properly in Q3 ?. In Australia when he spun the car in qualifying again he blamed on the engine torque is not stable which Renault quickly rubbished that claim. He never accept his mistakes and is childish. I think Max can easily make more mistakes. So Ricciardo just needed to push him more. He later admitted he was trying too hard and over-driving the car.Johnson wrote:Mark Webber experienced it with Vettel, the fact the Webber wasn't backed in the 2010 title run in tells you a lot about how Red Bull operate. Yes it ended out well for Red Bull but it doesn't change the decision and who they wanted to win the title and break records. The same at Mercedes, Mercedes would massively prefer Hamilton to win the title over Bottas and why wouldn't they. Its more records and marketing dream which ultimately sells more cars.Zoue wrote:I don't think Max being Red Bull's darling had any real (as opposed to imagined) bearing on Ricciardo's chances of success there. It certainly didn't hurt his chances when he went up against Red Bull's then-darling Vettel in 2013. Ricciardo got pretty much thumped by Max last year and it's probable that deep down he knew he didn't have an answer. Every further year he gets beaten on talent - as opposed to any kind of perceived favouritism - will only diminish his chances elsewhere. But memories are very short in F1 and if he beats Hulk then people will quickly forget about his previous beating and he'll have a better chance at the top teams again, as you've said.Johnson wrote:Apparently he is on £20 million a year, more than double Red Bull. He went for money and to run from Max. He isn’t significantly less talented than Max but Max is better and has a higher ceiling and Max is Red Bulls darling.
Leaving Red Bull is probably Dans best chance of getting in a Ferrari or Mercedes. If he comfortably beats Hulk he will get one of those drives. He will be too hard to ignore. If he doesn’t, then he will quite possibly never win another race.
2014, Riccairdo was so much quicker it was not relevant. I don't think Ricciardo was heavily beaten at all last year either. He put in a good account of himself, there was very little between them when both had fully functioning cars. No doubt, Verstappen edges him on talent but they both won 2 races each. Although if Verstappen was a bit less error prone that could have been 4-0
Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
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Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
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Sir Stirling Moss "Quite frankly, Kimi Raikkonen is the fastest driver in the world"
Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
well, no more sense than the theory that went around at the time that Hamilton left McLaren in part because they kept making mistakes, then he went to Mercedes who were making even more mistakes with Schumacher and publicly admitted it.pokerman wrote:Red Bull didn't deliver mainly because of the Renault engine, all these engine retirements he had last season and then he goes and signs up with Renault, that makes a lot of sense?Randine wrote:I think you are giving zero consideration of how circumstances effect driver performance or even effort to say Max thumped Dan.Zoue wrote:The only thing Mark Webber experienced at Red Bull was him not being good enough. If he hadn't binned it in Korea then he'd have taken the WDC title that year, but the fact he didn't was down to him and him alone. And he qualified atrociously in Abu Dhabi to give himself even more of a mountain to climb. Red Bull gave him everything he needed for the title but Webber didn't deliver.Johnson wrote:Mark Webber experienced it with Vettel, the fact the Webber wasn't backed in the 2010 title run in tells you a lot about how Red Bull operate. Yes it ended out well for Red Bull but it doesn't change the decision and who they wanted to win the title and break records. The same at Mercedes, Mercedes would massively prefer Hamilton to win the title over Bottas and why wouldn't they. Its more records and marketing dream which ultimately sells more cars.Zoue wrote: I don't think Max being Red Bull's darling had any real (as opposed to imagined) bearing on Ricciardo's chances of success there. It certainly didn't hurt his chances when he went up against Red Bull's then-darling Vettel in 2013. Ricciardo got pretty much thumped by Max last year and it's probable that deep down he knew he didn't have an answer. Every further year he gets beaten on talent - as opposed to any kind of perceived favouritism - will only diminish his chances elsewhere. But memories are very short in F1 and if he beats Hulk then people will quickly forget about his previous beating and he'll have a better chance at the top teams again, as you've said.
2014, Riccairdo was so much quicker it was not relevant. I don't think Ricciardo was heavily beaten at all last year either. He put in a good account of himself, there was very little between them when both had fully functioning cars. No doubt, Verstappen edges him on talent but they both won 2 races each. Although if Verstappen was a bit less error prone that could have been 4-0
I don't really see evidence that Mercedes would rather Hamilton win, it's just that he's the most obvious candidate to back as he's a proven winner and if he's given the tools he'll deliver. Bit like the situation at Ferrari today - they'll back Vettel because he's shown he can do it, but they'll still pop the champagne if Leclerc gets it instead. And Ricciardo is extremely marketable, so I can't see any logic in Red Bull not wanting him to do well, either. He just wasn't as good as Max.
Ricciardo was pretty comprehensively beaten IMO. Max made a number of mistakes but in terms of pace and ability it's obvious who was the better driver. If Max hadn't been so impetuous then the gap would have been even bigger - as you say, it could/should have been 4 wins for Max and Ricciardo can probably count his blessings that Max didn't maximise his chances, but at the end of the day Max can work on his mistakes but it's less likely that Ricciardo can find extra speed.
Having said that, Ricciardo's a pretty competent driver, it's just unfortunate for him that he had someone like Max partner him just when it looked like the world was his at Red Bull. But the way things turned out had nothing to do with who Red Bull preferred, just down to which driver performed better.
Dan has been promised a championship winning car for 5 years, and for 5 years Red Bull have not delivered.
Dan was 20 points behind after 6 races with 2 wins to each or Ham, Vettel and Dan.
Red Bull publicly announced they were building the team around Max and then show favouritism by saying each driver was equal to blame in Baku, when most experts thought Max was in the wrong.
Followed up by 8 or so engine retirements, and at other times, he was just nursing the engine home each race when he wasn’t in a good position (so that engine would not jeopardise the next race), Dan could not and did not show anything like what he is capable of in 2018.
Apart from that he beat max in 2016 and 2017 in the driver standings.
Have you ever been overlooked for a promotion at work? Or seen someone around you getting favouritism, whether it be friends earning more, a guy that gets all the girls etc.
We are all human, and to not even factor in the politics going on at Red Bull is very short sighted imho.
I think there's sense in Ricciardo going to Renault if he feels he can't beat Max. At least he's going to a works team with decent funding, not a mid-field no-hoper
Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
I believe with Schumacher it was just mechanical issues, with McLaren it was also operational issues, I have to believe with Hamilton he saw something within McLaren which was more like a cancer hence the need to leave McLaren despite them finishing the season with the fastest car.Zoue wrote:well, no more sense than the theory that went around at the time that Hamilton left McLaren in part because they kept making mistakes, then he went to Mercedes who were making even more mistakes with Schumacher and publicly admitted it.pokerman wrote:Red Bull didn't deliver mainly because of the Renault engine, all these engine retirements he had last season and then he goes and signs up with Renault, that makes a lot of sense?Randine wrote:I think you are giving zero consideration of how circumstances effect driver performance or even effort to say Max thumped Dan.Zoue wrote:The only thing Mark Webber experienced at Red Bull was him not being good enough. If he hadn't binned it in Korea then he'd have taken the WDC title that year, but the fact he didn't was down to him and him alone. And he qualified atrociously in Abu Dhabi to give himself even more of a mountain to climb. Red Bull gave him everything he needed for the title but Webber didn't deliver.Johnson wrote: Mark Webber experienced it with Vettel, the fact the Webber wasn't backed in the 2010 title run in tells you a lot about how Red Bull operate. Yes it ended out well for Red Bull but it doesn't change the decision and who they wanted to win the title and break records. The same at Mercedes, Mercedes would massively prefer Hamilton to win the title over Bottas and why wouldn't they. Its more records and marketing dream which ultimately sells more cars.
2014, Riccairdo was so much quicker it was not relevant. I don't think Ricciardo was heavily beaten at all last year either. He put in a good account of himself, there was very little between them when both had fully functioning cars. No doubt, Verstappen edges him on talent but they both won 2 races each. Although if Verstappen was a bit less error prone that could have been 4-0
I don't really see evidence that Mercedes would rather Hamilton win, it's just that he's the most obvious candidate to back as he's a proven winner and if he's given the tools he'll deliver. Bit like the situation at Ferrari today - they'll back Vettel because he's shown he can do it, but they'll still pop the champagne if Leclerc gets it instead. And Ricciardo is extremely marketable, so I can't see any logic in Red Bull not wanting him to do well, either. He just wasn't as good as Max.
Ricciardo was pretty comprehensively beaten IMO. Max made a number of mistakes but in terms of pace and ability it's obvious who was the better driver. If Max hadn't been so impetuous then the gap would have been even bigger - as you say, it could/should have been 4 wins for Max and Ricciardo can probably count his blessings that Max didn't maximise his chances, but at the end of the day Max can work on his mistakes but it's less likely that Ricciardo can find extra speed.
Having said that, Ricciardo's a pretty competent driver, it's just unfortunate for him that he had someone like Max partner him just when it looked like the world was his at Red Bull. But the way things turned out had nothing to do with who Red Bull preferred, just down to which driver performed better.
Dan has been promised a championship winning car for 5 years, and for 5 years Red Bull have not delivered.
Dan was 20 points behind after 6 races with 2 wins to each or Ham, Vettel and Dan.
Red Bull publicly announced they were building the team around Max and then show favouritism by saying each driver was equal to blame in Baku, when most experts thought Max was in the wrong.
Followed up by 8 or so engine retirements, and at other times, he was just nursing the engine home each race when he wasn’t in a good position (so that engine would not jeopardise the next race), Dan could not and did not show anything like what he is capable of in 2018.
Apart from that he beat max in 2016 and 2017 in the driver standings.
Have you ever been overlooked for a promotion at work? Or seen someone around you getting favouritism, whether it be friends earning more, a guy that gets all the girls etc.
We are all human, and to not even factor in the politics going on at Red Bull is very short sighted imho.
I think there's sense in Ricciardo going to Renault if he feels he can't beat Max. At least he's going to a works team with decent funding, not a mid-field no-hoper
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but is it just coincidence that McLaren have not won a race since he left, he foresaw a decline in the team?
Regarding Ricciardo I would say there are early signs that he's made a mistake, Red Bull are clearly not in decline in fact with Honda we are seeing a possible resurgence?
In regards to Renault they are hardly going to do a Mercedes when they are not even prepared to spend the money that Mercedes spend.
Lewis Hamilton #44
World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
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World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 95 (1st)
Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 165 (1st)
PF1 Pick 10 Competition
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Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
What Hamilton saw is a whole other discussion. I don't think he was particularly prescient and McLaren had a really good car when he was there - I don't think he's ever given any indication that he left McLaren because they were about to go into decline, but more that he wanted to strike out on his own. The actual car was contender for the best of the year in terms of ability. My point was more that there were parallels with Ricciardo and Hamilton leaving their respective teams for ones which looked very much like a gamble and only time will tell if Ricciardo's will pay off like Hamilton's did.pokerman wrote:I believe with Schumacher it was just mechanical issues, with McLaren it was also operational issues, I have to believe with Hamilton he saw something within McLaren which was more like a cancer hence the need to leave McLaren despite them finishing the season with the fastest car.Zoue wrote:well, no more sense than the theory that went around at the time that Hamilton left McLaren in part because they kept making mistakes, then he went to Mercedes who were making even more mistakes with Schumacher and publicly admitted it.pokerman wrote:Red Bull didn't deliver mainly because of the Renault engine, all these engine retirements he had last season and then he goes and signs up with Renault, that makes a lot of sense?Randine wrote:I think you are giving zero consideration of how circumstances effect driver performance or even effort to say Max thumped Dan.Zoue wrote: The only thing Mark Webber experienced at Red Bull was him not being good enough. If he hadn't binned it in Korea then he'd have taken the WDC title that year, but the fact he didn't was down to him and him alone. And he qualified atrociously in Abu Dhabi to give himself even more of a mountain to climb. Red Bull gave him everything he needed for the title but Webber didn't deliver.
I don't really see evidence that Mercedes would rather Hamilton win, it's just that he's the most obvious candidate to back as he's a proven winner and if he's given the tools he'll deliver. Bit like the situation at Ferrari today - they'll back Vettel because he's shown he can do it, but they'll still pop the champagne if Leclerc gets it instead. And Ricciardo is extremely marketable, so I can't see any logic in Red Bull not wanting him to do well, either. He just wasn't as good as Max.
Ricciardo was pretty comprehensively beaten IMO. Max made a number of mistakes but in terms of pace and ability it's obvious who was the better driver. If Max hadn't been so impetuous then the gap would have been even bigger - as you say, it could/should have been 4 wins for Max and Ricciardo can probably count his blessings that Max didn't maximise his chances, but at the end of the day Max can work on his mistakes but it's less likely that Ricciardo can find extra speed.
Having said that, Ricciardo's a pretty competent driver, it's just unfortunate for him that he had someone like Max partner him just when it looked like the world was his at Red Bull. But the way things turned out had nothing to do with who Red Bull preferred, just down to which driver performed better.
Dan has been promised a championship winning car for 5 years, and for 5 years Red Bull have not delivered.
Dan was 20 points behind after 6 races with 2 wins to each or Ham, Vettel and Dan.
Red Bull publicly announced they were building the team around Max and then show favouritism by saying each driver was equal to blame in Baku, when most experts thought Max was in the wrong.
Followed up by 8 or so engine retirements, and at other times, he was just nursing the engine home each race when he wasn’t in a good position (so that engine would not jeopardise the next race), Dan could not and did not show anything like what he is capable of in 2018.
Apart from that he beat max in 2016 and 2017 in the driver standings.
Have you ever been overlooked for a promotion at work? Or seen someone around you getting favouritism, whether it be friends earning more, a guy that gets all the girls etc.
We are all human, and to not even factor in the politics going on at Red Bull is very short sighted imho.
I think there's sense in Ricciardo going to Renault if he feels he can't beat Max. At least he's going to a works team with decent funding, not a mid-field no-hoper
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but is it just coincidence that McLaren have not won a race since he left, he foresaw a decline in the team?
Regarding Ricciardo I would say there are early signs that he's made a mistake, Red Bull are clearly not in decline in fact with Honda we are seeing a possible resurgence?
In regards to Renault they are hardly going to do a Mercedes when they are not even prepared to spend the money that Mercedes spend.
In terms of car I'd agree with you that Ricciardo has traded down. But I suspect that his motivation was more driven by who was in the other seat than anything else. If he kept getting overshadowed by Max his stock would drop, but he's a capable driver and if he makes a good account of himself at Renault then even if they don't reach the top it'll put him in a better position for other top teams to consider him in the future. In that respect I think he's made a sensible choice, even if I didn't think so at the time.
Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
Hamilton told Brundle in confidentiality why he left McLaren, something that Brundle can't repeat so it's not a simple case of someone wanting to flee the nest.Zoue wrote:What Hamilton saw is a whole other discussion. I don't think he was particularly prescient and McLaren had a really good car when he was there - I don't think he's ever given any indication that he left McLaren because they were about to go into decline, but more that he wanted to strike out on his own. The actual car was contender for the best of the year in terms of ability. My point was more that there were parallels with Ricciardo and Hamilton leaving their respective teams for ones which looked very much like a gamble and only time will tell if Ricciardo's will pay off like Hamilton's did.pokerman wrote:I believe with Schumacher it was just mechanical issues, with McLaren it was also operational issues, I have to believe with Hamilton he saw something within McLaren which was more like a cancer hence the need to leave McLaren despite them finishing the season with the fastest car.Zoue wrote:well, no more sense than the theory that went around at the time that Hamilton left McLaren in part because they kept making mistakes, then he went to Mercedes who were making even more mistakes with Schumacher and publicly admitted it.pokerman wrote:Red Bull didn't deliver mainly because of the Renault engine, all these engine retirements he had last season and then he goes and signs up with Renault, that makes a lot of sense?Randine wrote: I think you are giving zero consideration of how circumstances effect driver performance or even effort to say Max thumped Dan.
Dan has been promised a championship winning car for 5 years, and for 5 years Red Bull have not delivered.
Dan was 20 points behind after 6 races with 2 wins to each or Ham, Vettel and Dan.
Red Bull publicly announced they were building the team around Max and then show favouritism by saying each driver was equal to blame in Baku, when most experts thought Max was in the wrong.
Followed up by 8 or so engine retirements, and at other times, he was just nursing the engine home each race when he wasn’t in a good position (so that engine would not jeopardise the next race), Dan could not and did not show anything like what he is capable of in 2018.
Apart from that he beat max in 2016 and 2017 in the driver standings.
Have you ever been overlooked for a promotion at work? Or seen someone around you getting favouritism, whether it be friends earning more, a guy that gets all the girls etc.
We are all human, and to not even factor in the politics going on at Red Bull is very short sighted imho.
I think there's sense in Ricciardo going to Renault if he feels he can't beat Max. At least he's going to a works team with decent funding, not a mid-field no-hoper
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but is it just coincidence that McLaren have not won a race since he left, he foresaw a decline in the team?
Regarding Ricciardo I would say there are early signs that he's made a mistake, Red Bull are clearly not in decline in fact with Honda we are seeing a possible resurgence?
In regards to Renault they are hardly going to do a Mercedes when they are not even prepared to spend the money that Mercedes spend.
In terms of car I'd agree with you that Ricciardo has traded down. But I suspect that his motivation was more driven by who was in the other seat than anything else. If he kept getting overshadowed by Max his stock would drop, but he's a capable driver and if he makes a good account of himself at Renault then even if they don't reach the top it'll put him in a better position for other top teams to consider him in the future. In that respect I think he's made a sensible choice, even if I didn't think so at the time.
In respect to Ricciardo I'm onboard with that but it backfires if he can't beat the Hulk and on that score he's made a slow start.
Lewis Hamilton #44
World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 95 (1st)
Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 165 (1st)
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World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
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Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 165 (1st)
PF1 Pick 10 Competition
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Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
Max is in his 5th year in F1.Randine wrote:My point is that Max looks quicker than Ricciardo. Experience will eventually iron out mistakes and that will likely make him unassailable (for Ricciardo). Ricciardo's still good, but I think it's hard to conclude anything other than that Verstappen's betterZoue wrote:I think you are giving zero consideration of how circumstances effect driver performance or even effort to say Max thumped Dan.Johnson wrote:The only thing Mark Webber experienced at Red Bull was him not being good enough. If he hadn't binned it in Korea then he'd have taken the WDC title that year, but the fact he didn't was down to him and him alone. And he qualified atrociously in Abu Dhabi to give himself even more of a mountain to climb. Red Bull gave him everything he needed for the title but Webber didn't deliver.Zoue wrote:Mark Webber experienced it with Vettel, the fact the Webber wasn't backed in the 2010 title run in tells you a lot about how Red Bull operate. Yes it ended out well for Red Bull but it doesn't change the decision and who they wanted to win the title and break records. The same at Mercedes, Mercedes would massively prefer Hamilton to win the title over Bottas and why wouldn't they. Its more records and marketing dream which ultimately sells more cars.Johnson wrote: I don't think Max being Red Bull's darling had any real (as opposed to imagined) bearing on Ricciardo's chances of success there. It certainly didn't hurt his chances when he went up against Red Bull's then-darling Vettel in 2013. Ricciardo got pretty much thumped by Max last year and it's probable that deep down he knew he didn't have an answer. Every further year he gets beaten on talent - as opposed to any kind of perceived favouritism - will only diminish his chances elsewhere. But memories are very short in F1 and if he beats Hulk then people will quickly forget about his previous beating and he'll have a better chance at the top teams again, as you've said.
2014, Riccairdo was so much quicker it was not relevant. I don't think Ricciardo was heavily beaten at all last year either. He put in a good account of himself, there was very little between them when both had fully functioning cars. No doubt, Verstappen edges him on talent but they both won 2 races each. Although if Verstappen was a bit less error prone that could have been 4-0
I don't really see evidence that Mercedes would rather Hamilton win, it's just that he's the most obvious candidate to back as he's a proven winner and if he's given the tools he'll deliver. Bit like the situation at Ferrari today - they'll back Vettel because he's shown he can do it, but they'll still pop the champagne if Leclerc gets it instead. And Ricciardo is extremely marketable, so I can't see any logic in Red Bull not wanting him to do well, either. He just wasn't as good as Max.
Ricciardo was pretty comprehensively beaten IMO. Max made a number of mistakes but in terms of pace and ability it's obvious who was the better driver. If Max hadn't been so impetuous then the gap would have been even bigger - as you say, it could/should have been 4 wins for Max and Ricciardo can probably count his blessings that Max didn't maximise his chances, but at the end of the day Max can work on his mistakes but it's less likely that Ricciardo can find extra speed.
Having said that, Ricciardo's a pretty competent driver, it's just unfortunate for him that he had someone like Max partner him just when it looked like the world was his at Red Bull. But the way things turned out had nothing to do with who Red Bull preferred, just down to which driver performed better.
Dan has been promised a championship winning car for 5 years, and for 5 years Red Bull have not delivered.
Dan was 20 points behind after 6 races with 2 wins to each or Ham, Vettel and Dan.
Red Bull publicly announced they were building the team around Max and then show favouritism by saying each driver was equal to blame in Baku, when most experts thought Max was in the wrong.
Followed up by 8 or so engine retirements, and at other times, he was just nursing the engine home each race when he wasn’t in a good position (so that engine would not jeopardise the next race), Dan could not and did not show anything like what he is capable of in 2018.
Apart from that he beat max in 2016 and 2017 in the driver standings.
Have you ever been overlooked for a promotion at work? Or seen someone around you getting favouritism, whether it be friends earning more, a guy that gets all the girls etc.
We are all human, and to not even factor in the politics going on at Red Bull is very short sighted imho.
He makes far too many mistakes.
His approach is to win each races at all costs.
He even admitted that during testing he had to take it seriously without Ricciardo being there.
I think that you are under estimating Dan.
For someone that is being hailed as the next Senna, Max has zero pole positions while Dan has 3 all while Max was his partner.
Max drives on the edge, and as a result is quick, but he still doesn’t know his limits.
I regard him as being closer to Maldonado than Senna.
I have serious doubt over his ability to fight for a close championship without imploding.
Dan the man!
Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
It's been said he probably would change his win at all cost style once he has a WDC capable car, well there is hope at Red Bull this season and certainly in Australia he drove a calm race apart from the one off.Randine wrote:Max is in his 5th year in F1.Randine wrote:My point is that Max looks quicker than Ricciardo. Experience will eventually iron out mistakes and that will likely make him unassailable (for Ricciardo). Ricciardo's still good, but I think it's hard to conclude anything other than that Verstappen's betterZoue wrote:I think you are giving zero consideration of how circumstances effect driver performance or even effort to say Max thumped Dan.Johnson wrote:The only thing Mark Webber experienced at Red Bull was him not being good enough. If he hadn't binned it in Korea then he'd have taken the WDC title that year, but the fact he didn't was down to him and him alone. And he qualified atrociously in Abu Dhabi to give himself even more of a mountain to climb. Red Bull gave him everything he needed for the title but Webber didn't deliver.Zoue wrote: Mark Webber experienced it with Vettel, the fact the Webber wasn't backed in the 2010 title run in tells you a lot about how Red Bull operate. Yes it ended out well for Red Bull but it doesn't change the decision and who they wanted to win the title and break records. The same at Mercedes, Mercedes would massively prefer Hamilton to win the title over Bottas and why wouldn't they. Its more records and marketing dream which ultimately sells more cars.
2014, Riccairdo was so much quicker it was not relevant. I don't think Ricciardo was heavily beaten at all last year either. He put in a good account of himself, there was very little between them when both had fully functioning cars. No doubt, Verstappen edges him on talent but they both won 2 races each. Although if Verstappen was a bit less error prone that could have been 4-0
I don't really see evidence that Mercedes would rather Hamilton win, it's just that he's the most obvious candidate to back as he's a proven winner and if he's given the tools he'll deliver. Bit like the situation at Ferrari today - they'll back Vettel because he's shown he can do it, but they'll still pop the champagne if Leclerc gets it instead. And Ricciardo is extremely marketable, so I can't see any logic in Red Bull not wanting him to do well, either. He just wasn't as good as Max.
Ricciardo was pretty comprehensively beaten IMO. Max made a number of mistakes but in terms of pace and ability it's obvious who was the better driver. If Max hadn't been so impetuous then the gap would have been even bigger - as you say, it could/should have been 4 wins for Max and Ricciardo can probably count his blessings that Max didn't maximise his chances, but at the end of the day Max can work on his mistakes but it's less likely that Ricciardo can find extra speed.
Having said that, Ricciardo's a pretty competent driver, it's just unfortunate for him that he had someone like Max partner him just when it looked like the world was his at Red Bull. But the way things turned out had nothing to do with who Red Bull preferred, just down to which driver performed better.
Dan has been promised a championship winning car for 5 years, and for 5 years Red Bull have not delivered.
Dan was 20 points behind after 6 races with 2 wins to each or Ham, Vettel and Dan.
Red Bull publicly announced they were building the team around Max and then show favouritism by saying each driver was equal to blame in Baku, when most experts thought Max was in the wrong.
Followed up by 8 or so engine retirements, and at other times, he was just nursing the engine home each race when he wasn’t in a good position (so that engine would not jeopardise the next race), Dan could not and did not show anything like what he is capable of in 2018.
Apart from that he beat max in 2016 and 2017 in the driver standings.
Have you ever been overlooked for a promotion at work? Or seen someone around you getting favouritism, whether it be friends earning more, a guy that gets all the girls etc.
We are all human, and to not even factor in the politics going on at Red Bull is very short sighted imho.
He makes far too many mistakes.
His approach is to win each races at all costs.
He even admitted that during testing he had to take it seriously without Ricciardo being there.
I think that you are under estimating Dan.
For someone that is being hailed as the next Senna, Max has zero pole positions while Dan has 3 all while Max was his partner.
Max drives on the edge, and as a result is quick, but he still doesn’t know his limits.
I regard him as being closer to Maldonado than Senna.
I have serious doubt over his ability to fight for a close championship without imploding.
I think he certainly has the speed but it's true when given a chance at pole he's not delivered but that might just be a case of him putting pressure on himself to be the youngest pole position holder, now that's not obtainable maybe it might help?
Lewis Hamilton #44
World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 95 (1st)
Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 165 (1st)
PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion
World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 95 (1st)
Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 165 (1st)
PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion
Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
But at Red Bull Max has only been in a situation so far where a win at all cost attitude was the most productive attitude. Red Bull were a lock on for third in the WCC. He had nothing to lose by going all out for the win and taking risks. It was the right thing to be doing for the circumstance.Randine wrote:
Max is in his 5th year in F1.
He makes far too many mistakes.
His approach is to win each races at all costs.
He even admitted that during testing he had to take it seriously without Ricciardo being there.
I think that you are under estimating Dan.
For someone that is being hailed as the next Senna, Max has zero pole positions while Dan has 3 all while Max was his partner.
Max drives on the edge, and as a result is quick, but he still doesn’t know his limits.
I regard him as being closer to Maldonado than Senna.
I have serious doubt over his ability to fight for a close championship without imploding.
His second half of 2018 surely showed you what he is capable of?
Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
I don't think Red Bull is going to win WDC this season anyway. He joined Renault to win WDC not to just score more podiums. It might take some time, but Renault has as much money as Red Bull.
eeee
Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
I'm not so sure about that. Wasn't one of the problems that Renault haven't invested nearly as much in their PU program as the other manufacturers, and isn't it rumoured that Honda are writing a blank check in order to succeed with theirs?dizlexik wrote:I don't think Red Bull is going to win WDC this season anyway. He joined Renault to win WDC not to just score more podiums. It might take some time, but Renault has as much money as Red Bull.
Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
If Renault has as much money as Redbull, they surely aren't spending it on their F1 team. In Australia Mclaren, Haas and possibly the Alfa Romeo were all better cars than the Renault imho. They just don't inspire a lot of confidence that they are going to catch up to the big three.dizlexik wrote:I don't think Red Bull is going to win WDC this season anyway. He joined Renault to win WDC not to just score more podiums. It might take some time, but Renault has as much money as Red Bull.
Ricciardo has an out after next season and I think he is banking on that. He must have considered the possibility that Renault may never come good. So he is hoping that a top seat will open up in 2021. Meanwhile he needs to beat the Hulk, as everyone has already said.
Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
Ricciardo had a lucky run in 2017, he had 9 podiums and I believe he had about 20 cars retire in front of him in those 9 races. Every time he got a podium at least one top driver dropped out ahead of him.
Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
Ricciardo won 2 races last year, even race wins have no value?dizlexik wrote:I don't think Red Bull is going to win WDC this season anyway. He joined Renault to win WDC not to just score more podiums. It might take some time, but Renault has as much money as Red Bull.
As for the money side, no the Renault F1 team do not have as much money as Red Bull F1, that's why Renault are campaigning so hard for a budget cap starting in 2021, without the budget cap they are not winning anything anytime soon.
Lewis Hamilton #44
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Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
Yep that as well.Zoue wrote:I'm not so sure about that. Wasn't one of the problems that Renault haven't invested nearly as much in their PU program as the other manufacturers, and isn't it rumoured that Honda are writing a blank check in order to succeed with theirs?dizlexik wrote:I don't think Red Bull is going to win WDC this season anyway. He joined Renault to win WDC not to just score more podiums. It might take some time, but Renault has as much money as Red Bull.
Lewis Hamilton #44
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Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
Another thing is, what are the implications if Ricciardo gets beaten by Hulkenberg in Renault? Being the higher paid star driver of the team, Ricciardo actually has some pressure to perform well, because if Hulk is able to match him or better, then what will justify his star status in the team in the long run, or how might it affect other teams perceptions of him, in case he would need to look for an exit from Renault, if they can't manage to break into the top 3?
“I'm happy, but there's nothing to jump around about.”
Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
I'd say certainly the end of any hope WC hope & probably the end of a F1 career.froze wrote:Another thing is, what are the implications if Ricciardo gets beaten by Hulkenberg in Renault? Being the higher paid star driver of the team, Ricciardo actually has some pressure to perform well, because if Hulk is able to match him or better, then what will justify his star status in the team in the long run, or how might it affect other teams perceptions of him, in case he would need to look for an exit from Renault, if they can't manage to break into the top 3?
Only took 7 yrs, 5 mths & 21 days.
Cooper, Arrows, Brabham, Ligier, Lotus, Tyrrell, Minardi, McLaren, Sauber, Williams,
Remember the garagista's. The heart & soul of F1. They raced to race.
2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)
Cooper, Arrows, Brabham, Ligier, Lotus, Tyrrell, Minardi, McLaren, Sauber, Williams,
Remember the garagista's. The heart & soul of F1. They raced to race.
2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)
Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
I'd agree with the former, but not with the latter. The top teams would lose interest but he's proven he's plenty capable and can still snatch a win or two given half a chance. That's better than most on the gridJezza13 wrote:I'd say certainly the end of any hope WC hope & probably the end of a F1 career.froze wrote:Another thing is, what are the implications if Ricciardo gets beaten by Hulkenberg in Renault? Being the higher paid star driver of the team, Ricciardo actually has some pressure to perform well, because if Hulk is able to match him or better, then what will justify his star status in the team in the long run, or how might it affect other teams perceptions of him, in case he would need to look for an exit from Renault, if they can't manage to break into the top 3?
Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
Let’s not over-exaggerate. Ricciardo is a proven race winner and will have opportunities in F1 for at least the next decade, unless he voluntarily decides to retire early.
With that said, his chances at a WDC will effectively be over if Hulkenberg beats him.
With that said, his chances at a WDC will effectively be over if Hulkenberg beats him.
Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
He'll be 31 at the end of this contract & surrounded by young up & comers. Where would he get a gig if indeed he'd be happy driving a car that in all probability would struggle to get a podium let alone a win?Zoue wrote:I'd agree with the former, but not with the latter. The top teams would lose interest but he's proven he's plenty capable and can still snatch a win or two given half a chance. That's better than most on the gridJezza13 wrote:I'd say certainly the end of any hope WC hope & probably the end of a F1 career.froze wrote:Another thing is, what are the implications if Ricciardo gets beaten by Hulkenberg in Renault? Being the higher paid star driver of the team, Ricciardo actually has some pressure to perform well, because if Hulk is able to match him or better, then what will justify his star status in the team in the long run, or how might it affect other teams perceptions of him, in case he would need to look for an exit from Renault, if they can't manage to break into the top 3?
Maybe Alfa to replace Raikkonen or Macca I suppose could be an option but i'm not convinced he'd be happy at Racing Point or Haas. Forget both RB teams & Williams.
Only took 7 yrs, 5 mths & 21 days.
Cooper, Arrows, Brabham, Ligier, Lotus, Tyrrell, Minardi, McLaren, Sauber, Williams,
Remember the garagista's. The heart & soul of F1. They raced to race.
2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)
Cooper, Arrows, Brabham, Ligier, Lotus, Tyrrell, Minardi, McLaren, Sauber, Williams,
Remember the garagista's. The heart & soul of F1. They raced to race.
2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)
- MistaVega23
- Posts: 1967
- Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:29 am
Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
And if that's the case, then what next for Hulkenberg? I'd love to see him in a top car even if it's just for one season. I don't see Renault providing that for a while...KingVoid wrote:Let’s not over-exaggerate. Ricciardo is a proven race winner and will have opportunities in F1 for at least the next decade, unless he voluntarily decides to retire early.
With that said, his chances at a WDC will effectively be over if Hulkenberg beats him.
#KeepFightingMichael
Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
Well you know when Ricciardo was looking to go to Mercedes Hamilton said that he should be showing that he can beat/match Verstappen before he thinks about taking on him.froze wrote:Another thing is, what are the implications if Ricciardo gets beaten by Hulkenberg in Renault? Being the higher paid star driver of the team, Ricciardo actually has some pressure to perform well, because if Hulk is able to match him or better, then what will justify his star status in the team in the long run, or how might it affect other teams perceptions of him, in case he would need to look for an exit from Renault, if they can't manage to break into the top 3?
Lewis Hamilton #44
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Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
Hulkenberg and Perez are two drivers who I think desperately deserve at least one season in a top car before they retire.MistaVega23 wrote:And if that's the case, then what next for Hulkenberg? I'd love to see him in a top car even if it's just for one season. I don't see Renault providing that for a while...KingVoid wrote:Let’s not over-exaggerate. Ricciardo is a proven race winner and will have opportunities in F1 for at least the next decade, unless he voluntarily decides to retire early.
With that said, his chances at a WDC will effectively be over if Hulkenberg beats him.
Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
I think the days of a driver working there way up the grid are gone. To get a chance in a top team you have to be either a junior driver or join a midfield team that comes good.KingVoid wrote:Hulkenberg and Perez are two drivers who I think desperately deserve at least one season in a top car before they retire.MistaVega23 wrote:And if that's the case, then what next for Hulkenberg? I'd love to see him in a top car even if it's just for one season. I don't see Renault providing that for a while...KingVoid wrote:Let’s not over-exaggerate. Ricciardo is a proven race winner and will have opportunities in F1 for at least the next decade, unless he voluntarily decides to retire early.
With that said, his chances at a WDC will effectively be over if Hulkenberg beats him.
Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
Perez got a chance in a top team, they just didn't have a top car.KingVoid wrote:Hulkenberg and Perez are two drivers who I think desperately deserve at least one season in a top car before they retire.MistaVega23 wrote:And if that's the case, then what next for Hulkenberg? I'd love to see him in a top car even if it's just for one season. I don't see Renault providing that for a while...KingVoid wrote:Let’s not over-exaggerate. Ricciardo is a proven race winner and will have opportunities in F1 for at least the next decade, unless he voluntarily decides to retire early.
With that said, his chances at a WDC will effectively be over if Hulkenberg beats him.
Lewis Hamilton #44
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Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
The Hulk was the first choice to replace Rosberg at Mercedes but the Hulk had signed a 2 year contract with Renault and they wouldn't let him go.mikeyg123 wrote:I think the days of a driver working there way up the grid are gone. To get a chance in a top team you have to be either a junior driver or join a midfield team that comes good.KingVoid wrote:Hulkenberg and Perez are two drivers who I think desperately deserve at least one season in a top car before they retire.MistaVega23 wrote:And if that's the case, then what next for Hulkenberg? I'd love to see him in a top car even if it's just for one season. I don't see Renault providing that for a while...KingVoid wrote:Let’s not over-exaggerate. Ricciardo is a proven race winner and will have opportunities in F1 for at least the next decade, unless he voluntarily decides to retire early.
With that said, his chances at a WDC will effectively be over if Hulkenberg beats him.
Lewis Hamilton #44
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Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
You and others might have point about budget, but Riccardo wants to win WDC. Hamilton took giant risk when he had enough of few race wins a year and it paid off. Maybe Daniel won't stay at Renault but it was good decision. He needs team that is fully behind him to win the title. That wasn't true when he was at Red Bull, so he freed himself from Red Bull as soon as he could.pokerman wrote:Ricciardo won 2 races last year, even race wins have no value?dizlexik wrote:I don't think Red Bull is going to win WDC this season anyway. He joined Renault to win WDC not to just score more podiums. It might take some time, but Renault has as much money as Red Bull.
As for the money side, no the Renault F1 team do not have as much money as Red Bull F1, that's why Renault are campaigning so hard for a budget cap starting in 2021, without the budget cap they are not winning anything anytime soon.
eeee
Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
BIB: what does that even mean? He had everything he needed from Red Bull. By being fully behind him, do you mean favoring him? Because I don't see that he was disadvantaged in any way.dizlexik wrote:You and others might have point about budget, but Riccardo wants to win WDC. Hamilton took giant risk when he had enough of few race wins a year and it paid off. Maybe Daniel won't stay at Renault but it was good decision. He needs team that is fully behind him to win the title. That wasn't true when he was at Red Bull, so he freed himself from Red Bull as soon as he could.pokerman wrote:Ricciardo won 2 races last year, even race wins have no value?dizlexik wrote:I don't think Red Bull is going to win WDC this season anyway. He joined Renault to win WDC not to just score more podiums. It might take some time, but Renault has as much money as Red Bull.
As for the money side, no the Renault F1 team do not have as much money as Red Bull F1, that's why Renault are campaigning so hard for a budget cap starting in 2021, without the budget cap they are not winning anything anytime soon.
I think moving was the right thing for him if he has future title aspirations, BTW. But that's because I don't think he'll beat Max, not because Red Bull won't give him what he needs. Moving gives him a better chance of keeping his stock high
Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
At least the next decade? He is 30 years old in July. He has 1 big contract left in him, at which point he wil be turning 32. If Ferrari or Mercedes don't come calling at that point I don't see it ever happening. There are too many up and coming young drivers.KingVoid wrote:Let’s not over-exaggerate. Ricciardo is a proven race winner and will have opportunities in F1 for at least the next decade, unless he voluntarily decides to retire early.
With that said, his chances at a WDC will effectively be over if Hulkenberg beats him.
Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
It's true that he has a better chance at the WDC without Verstappen as his teammate, like I say both he and Renault now sit tight and wait for the budget caps.dizlexik wrote:You and others might have point about budget, but Riccardo wants to win WDC. Hamilton took giant risk when he had enough of few race wins a year and it paid off. Maybe Daniel won't stay at Renault but it was good decision. He needs team that is fully behind him to win the title. That wasn't true when he was at Red Bull, so he freed himself from Red Bull as soon as he could.pokerman wrote:Ricciardo won 2 races last year, even race wins have no value?dizlexik wrote:I don't think Red Bull is going to win WDC this season anyway. He joined Renault to win WDC not to just score more podiums. It might take some time, but Renault has as much money as Red Bull.
As for the money side, no the Renault F1 team do not have as much money as Red Bull F1, that's why Renault are campaigning so hard for a budget cap starting in 2021, without the budget cap they are not winning anything anytime soon.
Lewis Hamilton #44
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Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
He doesn't need to race Verstappen.Zoue wrote:BIB: what does that even mean? He had everything he needed from Red Bull. By being fully behind him, do you mean favoring him? Because I don't see that he was disadvantaged in any way.dizlexik wrote:You and others might have point about budget, but Riccardo wants to win WDC. Hamilton took giant risk when he had enough of few race wins a year and it paid off. Maybe Daniel won't stay at Renault but it was good decision. He needs team that is fully behind him to win the title. That wasn't true when he was at Red Bull, so he freed himself from Red Bull as soon as he could.pokerman wrote:Ricciardo won 2 races last year, even race wins have no value?dizlexik wrote:I don't think Red Bull is going to win WDC this season anyway. He joined Renault to win WDC not to just score more podiums. It might take some time, but Renault has as much money as Red Bull.
As for the money side, no the Renault F1 team do not have as much money as Red Bull F1, that's why Renault are campaigning so hard for a budget cap starting in 2021, without the budget cap they are not winning anything anytime soon.
I think moving was the right thing for him if he has future title aspirations, BTW. But that's because I don't think he'll beat Max, not because Red Bull won't give him what he needs. Moving gives him a better chance of keeping his stock high
eeee
Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
Bottom line is Ricciardo is slower then Max, with Max gaining experience the margin would be bigger. Ric had to go, it was obvious Renault gonna suck, but he just had to do it.
Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
He would if he was still at Red Bull. What do you mean by a team that is fully behind him? What could Red Bull have done differently that would have increased his chances of success with them?dizlexik wrote:He doesn't need to race Verstappen.Zoue wrote:BIB: what does that even mean? He had everything he needed from Red Bull. By being fully behind him, do you mean favoring him? Because I don't see that he was disadvantaged in any way.dizlexik wrote:You and others might have point about budget, but Riccardo wants to win WDC. Hamilton took giant risk when he had enough of few race wins a year and it paid off. Maybe Daniel won't stay at Renault but it was good decision. He needs team that is fully behind him to win the title. That wasn't true when he was at Red Bull, so he freed himself from Red Bull as soon as he could.pokerman wrote:Ricciardo won 2 races last year, even race wins have no value?dizlexik wrote:I don't think Red Bull is going to win WDC this season anyway. He joined Renault to win WDC not to just score more podiums. It might take some time, but Renault has as much money as Red Bull.
As for the money side, no the Renault F1 team do not have as much money as Red Bull F1, that's why Renault are campaigning so hard for a budget cap starting in 2021, without the budget cap they are not winning anything anytime soon.
I think moving was the right thing for him if he has future title aspirations, BTW. But that's because I don't think he'll beat Max, not because Red Bull won't give him what he needs. Moving gives him a better chance of keeping his stock high
Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
No, he will end up as the over-hyped driver. He's still good but not a top tier.
We'll see how he copes with Hulk.
We'll see how he copes with Hulk.
Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
No I don't think. I think he was in the right place at Red Bull, but then Verstappen came along and as good as Ricciardo is, I think he would have struggled to have beaten him in a straight title fight had the car allowed it.
But that's not luck or bad timing- that's a consequence of getting to a top team - it's highly likely you'll be up against a competitive team mate. And you should expect that.
He *may* end up being in the right place at the right time if Renault come good , but again that you could argue would be good judgement has he made the call to move.
The only one I've really felt for really was Vandoorne - to come in in the first instance and go up against Alonso is a big ask but to do it in a second rate car where no one really knows what's it's actually capable and have Alonso who excels more than any other driver in such conditions, meant he was always going to struggle to make an impression.
But that's not luck or bad timing- that's a consequence of getting to a top team - it's highly likely you'll be up against a competitive team mate. And you should expect that.
He *may* end up being in the right place at the right time if Renault come good , but again that you could argue would be good judgement has he made the call to move.
The only one I've really felt for really was Vandoorne - to come in in the first instance and go up against Alonso is a big ask but to do it in a second rate car where no one really knows what's it's actually capable and have Alonso who excels more than any other driver in such conditions, meant he was always going to struggle to make an impression.
"I'd rather lose a race going fast enough to win it, than win one going slow enough to lose it".
-Stirling Moss
-Stirling Moss
Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
This is it in a nutshell. He's the one of, if not the, best of his sub-generation which is sandwiched between Hamilton/Vettel and Leclerc/Max. Ricciardo needs to find himself in a championship quality car in a team without any of the other top guys as a teammate when the 2021 regs come in or he's bound to be left behind as a mid-30's top driver as the late-30's guys are leaving and the approaching-30 guys are hitting their peak.Johnson wrote:At least the next decade? He is 30 years old in July. He has 1 big contract left in him, at which point he wil be turning 32. If Ferrari or Mercedes don't come calling at that point I don't see it ever happening. There are too many up and coming young drivers.KingVoid wrote:Let’s not over-exaggerate. Ricciardo is a proven race winner and will have opportunities in F1 for at least the next decade, unless he voluntarily decides to retire early.
With that said, his chances at a WDC will effectively be over if Hulkenberg beats him.
{Insert clever sig line here}
Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
I know it's still early days, but Ricciardo cannot afford to let Hulkenberg get the better of him. He will lose his shine and top teams won't be interested in him anymore.
When Verstappen beat Ricciardo (sometimes very convincingly), it was generally accepted that Max is just a megatalent and Dan is still a great driver.
Hulkenberg, although certainly a good driver, is not considered a megatalent. Therefore losing to Hulk will be a lot more harmful than losing to Max was.
When Verstappen beat Ricciardo (sometimes very convincingly), it was generally accepted that Max is just a megatalent and Dan is still a great driver.
Hulkenberg, although certainly a good driver, is not considered a megatalent. Therefore losing to Hulk will be a lot more harmful than losing to Max was.
Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
How much can Renault gain from their previous success in F1 with Williams between 1989 and 1997?
Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
With the huge gap to Hulkenberg, could Ricciardo be fired?
Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
what, from Free Practice times?trento wrote:With the huge gap to Hulkenberg, could Ricciardo be fired?

Re: Will Ricciardo end up F1's right place wrong time guy?
Melbourne too. It's been 5 FPs and Ric is still much slower. Gasly is worseZoue wrote:what, from Free Practice times?trento wrote:With the huge gap to Hulkenberg, could Ricciardo be fired?