Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the problem

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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by Mercedes-Benz »

Gasly was P4 last year. This is stop and go track and not RBR best track I think.

RBR are ok and so far Honda is reliable. But surely Gasly needs a good result in first half. He is fighting with STR instead of top6 :? It was ironic that Renault's DNF actually prevented Max to get another podium :lol:
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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by mpls2 »

Zoue wrote:On today's race I'd suggest Honda are still a bit behind Renault. It's possible of course that Red Bull have produced an average car this year but the balance of probability would suggest that their PU is holding them back, given that they looked no better (and I'd suggest slightly worse) than both Renault-powered teams.
I wouldnlt jump to conclusions just yet.. there may be some truths to the RBR chassis not being the best or that they haven;t got to grips with it yet..

https://www.gptoday.com/details/view/67 ... n_chassis/

all throughout the weekend (inc all practise session) they couldn't capitalise on the soft tyre.. or be able to exploit the speed it gives..

If its about engine power, where are williams on the all conquering Mercedes engine ?

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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by Zoue »

mpls2 wrote:
Zoue wrote:On today's race I'd suggest Honda are still a bit behind Renault. It's possible of course that Red Bull have produced an average car this year but the balance of probability would suggest that their PU is holding them back, given that they looked no better (and I'd suggest slightly worse) than both Renault-powered teams.
I wouldnlt jump to conclusions just yet.. there may be some truths to the RBR chassis not being the best or that they haven;t got to grips with it yet..

https://www.gptoday.com/details/view/67 ... n_chassis/

all throughout the weekend (inc all practise session) they couldn't capitalise on the soft tyre.. or be able to exploit the speed it gives..

If its about engine power, where are williams on the all conquering Mercedes engine ?
I'm not suggesting it's all about engine power. It's just that at the moment I'd lean towards Red Bull producing a better chassis than McLaren or Renault, so if those two teams are ahead that leaves the PU as the potential differentiator.

Of course it's possible that Red Bull haven't produced a chassis to their usual standards, but that's why I said balance of probabilities. One race is too small a sample to be definitive so it's just a guess really

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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by Exediron »

My impression from this race is that McLaren has a car to fight Red Bull with equal drivers. The McLaren may even be slightly quicker.

If the Honda engine is superior to the Renault engine, that means McLaren have definitely built a better chassis than Red Bull. If it's happened this year, why not in 2015?
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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by Mort Canard »

Exediron wrote:My impression from this race is that McLaren has a car to fight Red Bull with equal drivers. The McLaren may even be slightly quicker.

If the Honda engine is superior to the Renault engine, that means McLaren have definitely built a better chassis than Red Bull. If it's happened this year, why not in 2015?
I would not mind at all having Sainz and Norris pushing on Verstappen for position this season.
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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by Lotus49 »

Exediron wrote:My impression from this race is that McLaren has a car to fight Red Bull with equal drivers. The McLaren may even be slightly quicker.

If the Honda engine is superior to the Renault engine, that means McLaren have definitely built a better chassis than Red Bull. If it's happened this year, why not in 2015?
This was interesting. If Marko's recent comments of them going too low d/f and needing to add more then why are they slower in the traps this year? The chart suggests they've either got more drag this year or a less powerful engine than what Renault had this time last year, never mind now.

Could be this engine swapping is a pretty tricky thing as this was the consensus best chassis last year but they seem to have lost 8ths to 1s against the top two so far this year. There was the regulation change to consider as well and their in-season development is usually insane and I also doubt there's some fundamental flaw that'll plague their entire season but it just shows it might be trickier to do without losing chunks of performance relative to your rivals than we might think.



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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by Exediron »

Lotus49 wrote:Could be this engine swapping is a pretty tricky thing as this was the consensus best chassis last year but they seem to have lost 8ths to 1s against the top two so far this year. There was the regulation change to consider as well and their in-season development is usually insane and I also doubt there's some fundamental flaw that'll plague their entire season but it just shows it might be trickier to do without losing chunks of performance relative to your rivals than we might think.
Yeah, but that excuse got poo pooed when McLaren used it, with everyone saying that switching engines couldn't account for the difference and they must have had a rubbish chassis the year before. Now Red Bull is struggling, and nobody is saying their 2018 car was crap. It feels like a double standard.
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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:Could be this engine swapping is a pretty tricky thing as this was the consensus best chassis last year but they seem to have lost 8ths to 1s against the top two so far this year. There was the regulation change to consider as well and their in-season development is usually insane and I also doubt there's some fundamental flaw that'll plague their entire season but it just shows it might be trickier to do without losing chunks of performance relative to your rivals than we might think.
Yeah, but that excuse got poo pooed when McLaren used it, with everyone saying that switching engines couldn't account for the difference and they must have had a rubbish chassis the year before. Now Red Bull is struggling, and nobody is saying their 2018 car was crap. It feels like a double standard.
Red Bull got a podium in Australia, what podiums did McLaren get?
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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by Exediron »

pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:Could be this engine swapping is a pretty tricky thing as this was the consensus best chassis last year but they seem to have lost 8ths to 1s against the top two so far this year. There was the regulation change to consider as well and their in-season development is usually insane and I also doubt there's some fundamental flaw that'll plague their entire season but it just shows it might be trickier to do without losing chunks of performance relative to your rivals than we might think.
Yeah, but that excuse got poo pooed when McLaren used it, with everyone saying that switching engines couldn't account for the difference and they must have had a rubbish chassis the year before. Now Red Bull is struggling, and nobody is saying their 2018 car was crap. It feels like a double standard.
Red Bull got a podium in Australia, what podiums did McLaren get?
None. Your point? Are you implying that this Red Bull is up to their standard just because they got a podium?

My point is that they've produced what seems to be a much weaker car immediately after switching engines, whereas people said that was very unlikely for McLaren. Their fluke podium in Australia does nothing to disprove that, and they only got it because Ferrari had an issue with their engine.
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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:Could be this engine swapping is a pretty tricky thing as this was the consensus best chassis last year but they seem to have lost 8ths to 1s against the top two so far this year. There was the regulation change to consider as well and their in-season development is usually insane and I also doubt there's some fundamental flaw that'll plague their entire season but it just shows it might be trickier to do without losing chunks of performance relative to your rivals than we might think.
Yeah, but that excuse got poo pooed when McLaren used it, with everyone saying that switching engines couldn't account for the difference and they must have had a rubbish chassis the year before. Now Red Bull is struggling, and nobody is saying their 2018 car was crap. It feels like a double standard.
Red Bull got a podium in Australia, what podiums did McLaren get?
None. Your point? Are you implying that this Red Bull is up to their standard just because they got a podium?

My point is that they've produced what seems to be a much weaker car immediately after switching engines, whereas people said that was very unlikely for McLaren. Their fluke podium in Australia does nothing to disprove that, and they only got it because Ferrari had an issue with their engine.
Still the comparison is that a weak Red Bull car is much better than a weak McLaren car, anyway it's good to see the progress Mclaren have made this season.
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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by Lotus49 »

Exediron wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:Could be this engine swapping is a pretty tricky thing as this was the consensus best chassis last year but they seem to have lost 8ths to 1s against the top two so far this year. There was the regulation change to consider as well and their in-season development is usually insane and I also doubt there's some fundamental flaw that'll plague their entire season but it just shows it might be trickier to do without losing chunks of performance relative to your rivals than we might think.
Yeah, but that excuse got poo pooed when McLaren used it, with everyone saying that switching engines couldn't account for the difference and they must have had a rubbish chassis the year before. Now Red Bull is struggling, and nobody is saying their 2018 car was crap. It feels like a double standard.
It is a double standard tbf, yes.

Only thing I'd say is the regulation change was bigger than last years with McLaren's but yes it shows how easy it is to go from even for RB and the outright best chassis to losing a big chunk of time to the biggest teams in one winter if all your focus isn't solely on development or one concept.

If anything it should've been easier for RB with their bigger budget, full chassis dyno and STR's experience in constantly swapping engines and they still lost up to a second to Mercedes/Ferrari so that should further highlight the potential for losses.
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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by AravJ »

Lotus49 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:Could be this engine swapping is a pretty tricky thing as this was the consensus best chassis last year but they seem to have lost 8ths to 1s against the top two so far this year. There was the regulation change to consider as well and their in-season development is usually insane and I also doubt there's some fundamental flaw that'll plague their entire season but it just shows it might be trickier to do without losing chunks of performance relative to your rivals than we might think.
Yeah, but that excuse got poo pooed when McLaren used it, with everyone saying that switching engines couldn't account for the difference and they must have had a rubbish chassis the year before. Now Red Bull is struggling, and nobody is saying their 2018 car was crap. It feels like a double standard.
It is a double standard tbf, yes.

Only thing I'd say is the regulation change was bigger than last years with McLaren's but yes it shows how easy it is to go from even for RB and the outright best chassis to losing a big chunk of time to the biggest teams in one winter if all your focus isn't solely on development or one concept.

If anything it should've been easier for RB with their bigger budget, full chassis dyno and STR's experience in constantly swapping engines and they still lost up to a second to Mercedes/Ferrari so that should further highlight the potential for losses.
RRB had worse starts to a season in terms of chassis. 2018 was their best start in the hybrid era. They themselves admitted it in 2017. So with RBR specifically its difficult to say until later in the season because it has been a trend with them.
So not double standards yet.

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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by Lotus49 »

AravJ wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:Could be this engine swapping is a pretty tricky thing as this was the consensus best chassis last year but they seem to have lost 8ths to 1s against the top two so far this year. There was the regulation change to consider as well and their in-season development is usually insane and I also doubt there's some fundamental flaw that'll plague their entire season but it just shows it might be trickier to do without losing chunks of performance relative to your rivals than we might think.
Yeah, but that excuse got poo pooed when McLaren used it, with everyone saying that switching engines couldn't account for the difference and they must have had a rubbish chassis the year before. Now Red Bull is struggling, and nobody is saying their 2018 car was crap. It feels like a double standard.
It is a double standard tbf, yes.

Only thing I'd say is the regulation change was bigger than last years with McLaren's but yes it shows how easy it is to go from even for RB and the outright best chassis to losing a big chunk of time to the biggest teams in one winter if all your focus isn't solely on development or one concept.

If anything it should've been easier for RB with their bigger budget, full chassis dyno and STR's experience in constantly swapping engines and they still lost up to a second to Mercedes/Ferrari so that should further highlight the potential for losses.
RRB had worse starts to a season in terms of chassis. 2018 was their best start in the hybrid era. They themselves admitted it in 2017. So with RBR specifically its difficult to say until later in the season because it has been a trend with them.
So not double standards yet.
I'd say its still a bit of a double standard tbh because no such leeway was given to McLaren despite their own infamous recent history with big car changes (Winter 2012/13) and specifically with new suspension ideas (2014).

Doing an engine change at the same time as changing your whole front end, bringing a new unique rear suspension idea and losing your old trick suspension and monkey seat blowing all in one winter was always something that came with a risk for any team but we only seemed to acknowledge the engine switch for McLaren and treated it as if everything else was exactly the same and so the poor performance of the MCL33 was not only attributed to that years car but backdated to every single McLaren car of the turbo era, including the ones from entirely different aero regs before 2017.

I'm also positive RB will respond but the lack of any big deal being made of their obvious sizeable step backwards after the engine switch over the winter from both the press and online is as Exediron says a double standard imo.
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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by AravJ »

Lotus49 wrote:
AravJ wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:Could be this engine swapping is a pretty tricky thing as this was the consensus best chassis last year but they seem to have lost 8ths to 1s against the top two so far this year. There was the regulation change to consider as well and their in-season development is usually insane and I also doubt there's some fundamental flaw that'll plague their entire season but it just shows it might be trickier to do without losing chunks of performance relative to your rivals than we might think.
Yeah, but that excuse got poo pooed when McLaren used it, with everyone saying that switching engines couldn't account for the difference and they must have had a rubbish chassis the year before. Now Red Bull is struggling, and nobody is saying their 2018 car was crap. It feels like a double standard.
It is a double standard tbf, yes.

Only thing I'd say is the regulation change was bigger than last years with McLaren's but yes it shows how easy it is to go from even for RB and the outright best chassis to losing a big chunk of time to the biggest teams in one winter if all your focus isn't solely on development or one concept.

If anything it should've been easier for RB with their bigger budget, full chassis dyno and STR's experience in constantly swapping engines and they still lost up to a second to Mercedes/Ferrari so that should further highlight the potential for losses.
RRB had worse starts to a season in terms of chassis. 2018 was their best start in the hybrid era. They themselves admitted it in 2017. So with RBR specifically its difficult to say until later in the season because it has been a trend with them.
So not double standards yet.
I'd say its still a bit of a double standard tbh because no such leeway was given to McLaren despite their own infamous recent history with big car changes (Winter 2012/13) and specifically with new suspension ideas (2014).

Doing an engine change at the same time as changing your whole front end, bringing a new unique rear suspension idea and losing your old trick suspension and monkey seat blowing all in one winter was always something that came with a risk for any team but we only seemed to acknowledge the engine switch for McLaren and treated it as if everything else was exactly the same and so the poor performance of the MCL33 was not only attributed to that years car but backdated to every single McLaren car of the turbo era, including the ones from entirely different aero regs before 2017.

I'm also positive RB will respond but the lack of any big deal being made of their obvious sizeable step backwards after the engine switch over the winter from both the press and online is as Exediron says a double standard imo.
The whole of 2018 and now 2nd shot at 2019 for McLaren vs 2 races for Redbull counts as more leeway for McLaren. Mclaren has made a big improvement in 2019 but it's still midfield.
One question, was it trick suspension or illegal suspension?

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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by Lotus49 »

AravJ wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
AravJ wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Exediron wrote: Yeah, but that excuse got poo pooed when McLaren used it, with everyone saying that switching engines couldn't account for the difference and they must have had a rubbish chassis the year before. Now Red Bull is struggling, and nobody is saying their 2018 car was crap. It feels like a double standard.
It is a double standard tbf, yes.

Only thing I'd say is the regulation change was bigger than last years with McLaren's but yes it shows how easy it is to go from even for RB and the outright best chassis to losing a big chunk of time to the biggest teams in one winter if all your focus isn't solely on development or one concept.

If anything it should've been easier for RB with their bigger budget, full chassis dyno and STR's experience in constantly swapping engines and they still lost up to a second to Mercedes/Ferrari so that should further highlight the potential for losses.
RRB had worse starts to a season in terms of chassis. 2018 was their best start in the hybrid era. They themselves admitted it in 2017. So with RBR specifically its difficult to say until later in the season because it has been a trend with them.
So not double standards yet.
I'd say its still a bit of a double standard tbh because no such leeway was given to McLaren despite their own infamous recent history with big car changes (Winter 2012/13) and specifically with new suspension ideas (2014).

Doing an engine change at the same time as changing your whole front end, bringing a new unique rear suspension idea and losing your old trick suspension and monkey seat blowing all in one winter was always something that came with a risk for any team but we only seemed to acknowledge the engine switch for McLaren and treated it as if everything else was exactly the same and so the poor performance of the MCL33 was not only attributed to that years car but backdated to every single McLaren car of the turbo era, including the ones from entirely different aero regs before 2017.

I'm also positive RB will respond but the lack of any big deal being made of their obvious sizeable step backwards after the engine switch over the winter from both the press and online is as Exediron says a double standard imo.
The whole of 2018 and now 2nd shot at 2019 for McLaren vs 2 races for Redbull counts as more leeway for McLaren. Mclaren has made a big improvement in 2019 but it's still midfield.
One question, was it trick suspension or illegal suspension?
What leeway? They didn't get out of winter testing without getting widely shredded last year.

Trick. If it was illegal they'd have been forced to remove it.
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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:On today's race I'd suggest Honda are still a bit behind Renault. It's possible of course that Red Bull have produced an average car this year but the balance of probability would suggest that their PU is holding them back, given that they looked no better (and I'd suggest slightly worse) than both Renault-powered teams.
Ignoring that Red Bull themselves are saying that the car is the problem, how many times for instance does Verstappen have to say that they couldn't get the tyres to work?
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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by AravJ »

Lotus49 wrote:
Trick. If it was illegal they'd have been forced to remove it.
Why did they remove it?

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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by pokerman »

Lotus49 wrote:
Exediron wrote:My impression from this race is that McLaren has a car to fight Red Bull with equal drivers. The McLaren may even be slightly quicker.

If the Honda engine is superior to the Renault engine, that means McLaren have definitely built a better chassis than Red Bull. If it's happened this year, why not in 2015?
This was interesting. If Marko's recent comments of them going too low d/f and needing to add more then why are they slower in the traps this year? The chart suggests they've either got more drag this year or a less powerful engine than what Renault had this time last year, never mind now.

Could be this engine swapping is a pretty tricky thing as this was the consensus best chassis last year but they seem to have lost 8ths to 1s against the top two so far this year. There was the regulation change to consider as well and their in-season development is usually insane and I also doubt there's some fundamental flaw that'll plague their entire season but it just shows it might be trickier to do without losing chunks of performance relative to your rivals than we might think.



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Might it also have something to do with the high rake that they use, they and Haas I believe have the highest rakes and Haas have gone even further backwards on top speed and they are using the same and I guess more improved 2019 Ferrari engine.
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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:Could be this engine swapping is a pretty tricky thing as this was the consensus best chassis last year but they seem to have lost 8ths to 1s against the top two so far this year. There was the regulation change to consider as well and their in-season development is usually insane and I also doubt there's some fundamental flaw that'll plague their entire season but it just shows it might be trickier to do without losing chunks of performance relative to your rivals than we might think.
Yeah, but that excuse got poo pooed when McLaren used it, with everyone saying that switching engines couldn't account for the difference and they must have had a rubbish chassis the year before. Now Red Bull is struggling, and nobody is saying their 2018 car was crap. It feels like a double standard.
So McLaren are now no longer a midfield team?

Red Bull are known for having slow starts with their design in recent years and having to play catch up, what they are achieving this year thus far still far exceeds what McLaren did in 2018, plus in recent years they've actually won races so they are believable when they have said they had the best car but have an inferior engine.
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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:On today's race I'd suggest Honda are still a bit behind Renault. It's possible of course that Red Bull have produced an average car this year but the balance of probability would suggest that their PU is holding them back, given that they looked no better (and I'd suggest slightly worse) than both Renault-powered teams.
Ignoring that Red Bull themselves are saying that the car is the problem, how many times for instance does Verstappen have to say that they couldn't get the tyres to work?
Easy, tiger. I'm not ignoring it. Hadn't seen that when I wrote my original post.

Yes, based on what Red Bull are saying it looks like they have produced a tricky car this year, so difficult to judge the Honda PU on that basis I'd agree.

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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:Could be this engine swapping is a pretty tricky thing as this was the consensus best chassis last year but they seem to have lost 8ths to 1s against the top two so far this year. There was the regulation change to consider as well and their in-season development is usually insane and I also doubt there's some fundamental flaw that'll plague their entire season but it just shows it might be trickier to do without losing chunks of performance relative to your rivals than we might think.
Yeah, but that excuse got poo pooed when McLaren used it, with everyone saying that switching engines couldn't account for the difference and they must have had a rubbish chassis the year before. Now Red Bull is struggling, and nobody is saying their 2018 car was crap. It feels like a double standard.
Red Bull got a podium in Australia, what podiums did McLaren get?
None. Your point? Are you implying that this Red Bull is up to their standard just because they got a podium?

My point is that they've produced what seems to be a much weaker car immediately after switching engines, whereas people said that was very unlikely for McLaren. Their fluke podium in Australia does nothing to disprove that, and they only got it because Ferrari had an issue with their engine.
I've answered your previous post again not realising I had already answered but it does add some salient things I didn't say before.
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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:On today's race I'd suggest Honda are still a bit behind Renault. It's possible of course that Red Bull have produced an average car this year but the balance of probability would suggest that their PU is holding them back, given that they looked no better (and I'd suggest slightly worse) than both Renault-powered teams.
Ignoring that Red Bull themselves are saying that the car is the problem, how many times for instance does Verstappen have to say that they couldn't get the tyres to work?
Easy, tiger. I'm not ignoring it. Hadn't seen that when I wrote my original post.

Yes, based on what Red Bull are saying it looks like they have produced a tricky car this year, so difficult to judge the Honda PU on that basis I'd agree.
Fair enough I was after all a day late to the party.
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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by Lotus49 »

AravJ wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Trick. If it was illegal they'd have been forced to remove it.
Why did they remove it?
Regulation change around some hydraulic parts for 2018 I think so they had to stop or it would've been illegal in 2018 if they ran it.
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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by Lotus49 »

pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Exediron wrote:My impression from this race is that McLaren has a car to fight Red Bull with equal drivers. The McLaren may even be slightly quicker.

If the Honda engine is superior to the Renault engine, that means McLaren have definitely built a better chassis than Red Bull. If it's happened this year, why not in 2015?
This was interesting. If Marko's recent comments of them going too low d/f and needing to add more then why are they slower in the traps this year? The chart suggests they've either got more drag this year or a less powerful engine than what Renault had this time last year, never mind now.

Could be this engine swapping is a pretty tricky thing as this was the consensus best chassis last year but they seem to have lost 8ths to 1s against the top two so far this year. There was the regulation change to consider as well and their in-season development is usually insane and I also doubt there's some fundamental flaw that'll plague their entire season but it just shows it might be trickier to do without losing chunks of performance relative to your rivals than we might think.



Image
https://forums.autosport.com/topic/2121 ... -2/page-11
Might it also have something to do with the high rake that they use, they and Haas I believe have the highest rakes and Haas have gone even further backwards on top speed and they are using the same and I guess more improved 2019 Ferrari engine.
Yeah it could influence it but obviously they had high rake the previous year too, pretty much the same at around 1.9° was what I could find.

Renault have the highest rake and gained 6 km/h though so not sure of the impact it would have even if it were more tbh.
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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by pokerman »

Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Exediron wrote:My impression from this race is that McLaren has a car to fight Red Bull with equal drivers. The McLaren may even be slightly quicker.

If the Honda engine is superior to the Renault engine, that means McLaren have definitely built a better chassis than Red Bull. If it's happened this year, why not in 2015?
This was interesting. If Marko's recent comments of them going too low d/f and needing to add more then why are they slower in the traps this year? The chart suggests they've either got more drag this year or a less powerful engine than what Renault had this time last year, never mind now.

Could be this engine swapping is a pretty tricky thing as this was the consensus best chassis last year but they seem to have lost 8ths to 1s against the top two so far this year. There was the regulation change to consider as well and their in-season development is usually insane and I also doubt there's some fundamental flaw that'll plague their entire season but it just shows it might be trickier to do without losing chunks of performance relative to your rivals than we might think.



Image
https://forums.autosport.com/topic/2121 ... -2/page-11
Might it also have something to do with the high rake that they use, they and Haas I believe have the highest rakes and Haas have gone even further backwards on top speed and they are using the same and I guess more improved 2019 Ferrari engine.
Yeah it could influence it but obviously they had high rake the previous year too, pretty much the same at around 1.9° was what I could find.

Renault have the highest rake and gained 6 km/h though so not sure of the impact it would have even if it were more tbh.
Fair enough I thought Red Bull and Haas had the highest rakes.
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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by Lotus49 »

pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Exediron wrote:My impression from this race is that McLaren has a car to fight Red Bull with equal drivers. The McLaren may even be slightly quicker.

If the Honda engine is superior to the Renault engine, that means McLaren have definitely built a better chassis than Red Bull. If it's happened this year, why not in 2015?
This was interesting. If Marko's recent comments of them going too low d/f and needing to add more then why are they slower in the traps this year? The chart suggests they've either got more drag this year or a less powerful engine than what Renault had this time last year, never mind now.

Could be this engine swapping is a pretty tricky thing as this was the consensus best chassis last year but they seem to have lost 8ths to 1s against the top two so far this year. There was the regulation change to consider as well and their in-season development is usually insane and I also doubt there's some fundamental flaw that'll plague their entire season but it just shows it might be trickier to do without losing chunks of performance relative to your rivals than we might think.



Image
https://forums.autosport.com/topic/2121 ... -2/page-11
Might it also have something to do with the high rake that they use, they and Haas I believe have the highest rakes and Haas have gone even further backwards on top speed and they are using the same and I guess more improved 2019 Ferrari engine.
Yeah it could influence it but obviously they had high rake the previous year too, pretty much the same at around 1.9° was what I could find.

Renault have the highest rake and gained 6 km/h though so not sure of the impact it would have even if it were more tbh.
Fair enough I thought Red Bull and Haas had the highest rakes.
Not going by this but they mention it can change so I'm just taking their word for it obviously.

https://maxf1.net/en/f1-2019-cars-lengt ... rake-data/
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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by pokerman »

Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote: This was interesting. If Marko's recent comments of them going too low d/f and needing to add more then why are they slower in the traps this year? The chart suggests they've either got more drag this year or a less powerful engine than what Renault had this time last year, never mind now.

Could be this engine swapping is a pretty tricky thing as this was the consensus best chassis last year but they seem to have lost 8ths to 1s against the top two so far this year. There was the regulation change to consider as well and their in-season development is usually insane and I also doubt there's some fundamental flaw that'll plague their entire season but it just shows it might be trickier to do without losing chunks of performance relative to your rivals than we might think.



Image
https://forums.autosport.com/topic/2121 ... -2/page-11
Might it also have something to do with the high rake that they use, they and Haas I believe have the highest rakes and Haas have gone even further backwards on top speed and they are using the same and I guess more improved 2019 Ferrari engine.
Yeah it could influence it but obviously they had high rake the previous year too, pretty much the same at around 1.9° was what I could find.

Renault have the highest rake and gained 6 km/h though so not sure of the impact it would have even if it were more tbh.
Fair enough I thought Red Bull and Haas had the highest rakes.
Not going by this but they mention it can change so I'm just taking their word for it obviously.

https://maxf1.net/en/f1-2019-cars-lengt ... rake-data/
:thumbup:
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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by AravJ »

Lotus49 wrote:
Regulation change around some hydraulic parts for 2018 I think so they had to stop or it would've been illegal in 2018 if they ran it.
Thanks, is there anything you can quote what rule changed. Don't take this the wrong way, I am just trying to understand the issue. I just don't recall mclaren saying they were hampered by suspension issue. I just remember they did some rear suspension redesign with Renault integration that used some design of the 2013 car and a bit of a copy of the STR design. It was reported that it was actually aggressive design. All I remember of 2018 McLaren issues were not passing some crash tests which meant nose (and therefore related Aero) was delayed to Barcelona.
Further than that wrt suspension in 2017/16 I remember some teams (I think Ferrari) asking FIA for clarification on some trick suspension that they wanted to develop because other teams had it. Fia said it was illegal according to existing rules as it altered ride height and all teams must remove if they have such systems. Fia then inspected at 2017 pre season testing and told defaulting teams to remove. But that was in 2017 and Redbull and Merc were reported to be most affected. Mclaren did not appear in the controversy. In 2018 FIA only included test criteria to prove teams don't use active suspension that was always illegal. So what trick was mclaren suspension performing if it was legal in 2017 but became illegal in 2018.

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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by Mercedes-Benz »

Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:Could be this engine swapping is a pretty tricky thing as this was the consensus best chassis last year but they seem to have lost 8ths to 1s against the top two so far this year. There was the regulation change to consider as well and their in-season development is usually insane and I also doubt there's some fundamental flaw that'll plague their entire season but it just shows it might be trickier to do without losing chunks of performance relative to your rivals than we might think.
Yeah, but that excuse got poo pooed when McLaren used it, with everyone saying that switching engines couldn't account for the difference and they must have had a rubbish chassis the year before. Now Red Bull is struggling, and nobody is saying their 2018 car was crap. It feels like a double standard.
Red Bull got a podium in Australia, what podiums did McLaren get?
None. Your point? Are you implying that this Red Bull is up to their standard just because they got a podium?

My point is that they've produced what seems to be a much weaker car immediately after switching engines, whereas people said that was very unlikely for McLaren. Their fluke podium in Australia does nothing to disprove that, and they only got it because Ferrari had an issue with their engine.
If RBR podium in Australia is fluke then what about what Mclaren points scoring results over so many years ?? Because I do not think Mclaren was and even now is in top 5 teams. On merit there are very few races Mcalren would be scoring points. As far RBR performance goes. I think Bahrain is not their best track and they struggled more due to conditions. In Australia. Max was over a min ahead of the midfield teams. I think they will get better as the season goes.

Mclaren surprising had a good race. Not sure what happened to Haas in the race. Midfield teams pecking order will also differ from track to track. I think Renault is much better than the result they have got. Haas should be up there in China as well.
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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by pokerman »

Apparently Red Bull are saying they underestimated the power output of the Honda engine and designed a car to suit as been their custom for the last few years to offset a weak engine.

They are bringing a big aero update for Barcelona with much improved downforce.
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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by Exediron »

pokerman wrote:Apparently Red Bull are saying they underestimated the power output of the Honda engine and designed a car to suit as been their custom for the last few years to offset a weak engine.

They are bringing a big aero update for Barcelona with much improved downforce.
I don't believe them. But we'll see what happens in Barcelona.
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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:Apparently Red Bull are saying they underestimated the power output of the Honda engine and designed a car to suit as been their custom for the last few years to offset a weak engine.

They are bringing a big aero update for Barcelona with much improved downforce.
I don't believe them. But we'll see what happens in Barcelona.
They found out in winter testing but it takes that long for the updates to come through.
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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by kleefton »

One bad race for Redbull and we have to read of these complaints of double standards. Wow! Didn't a Redbull split the Ferraris in Melbourne? How close the midfield was to Max in Melbourne during the race? I would wait a few more races before making any kind of judgement that the Redbull is a midfield car this year. In Australia their trap speeds were super high, in Bahrain they were among the slowest in the traps. My guess is they are trying to add downforce to the car, but in Bahrain it didn't work for whatever reason. But Mclaren this year has done a great job and they are recovering. Now this year's Mclaren is pretty slippery and hence fast in the straights. This was a big problem for them last year, and likely during the Honda years too. But Mclaren is definitely still a midfield car. Let's not get carried away just yet.

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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by Exediron »

kleefton wrote:One bad race for Redbull and we have to read of these complaints of double standards. Wow! Didn't a Redbull split the Ferraris in Melbourne? How close the midfield was to Max in Melbourne during the race? I would wait a few more races before making any kind of judgement that the Redbull is a midfield car this year. In Australia their trap speeds were super high, in Bahrain they were among the slowest in the traps. My guess is they are trying to add downforce to the car, but in Bahrain it didn't work for whatever reason. But Mclaren this year has done a great job and they are recovering. Now this year's Mclaren is pretty slippery and hence fast in the straights. This was a big problem for them last year, and likely during the Honda years too. But Mclaren is definitely still a midfield car. Let's not get carried away just yet.
What you're missing is that it doesn't matter if the McLaren is better than the Red Bull. Red Bull has gone from a great chassis (acknowledged by just about everyone as the best on the grid) to a chassis that - whether you think it's midfield or not - is obviously much worse, and this happened right after switching their engine. And yet, nobody is saying that their car was poor last year because of this year's chassis.

They are clearly given different treatment and the benefit of a doubt. People are willing to believe that they've created a weaker chassis this year than last. So why not with Macca?
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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by Filip »

pendulumeffect wrote:Verstappen is probably in the same situation now performance wise as last year but the added benefit of Honda money and sole manufacturer engine development for both Redbull teams.

Was McLaren really the problem in their relationship with Honda? They had a pretty crappy year with Merc before they got Honda engines. Granted, Honda were behind, but they pretty much accepted they needed to struggle for a while. McLaren fended off Honda from supplying extra teams, to keep the advantage of exclusitivity and avoiding other teams benefitting from their toils. And now they have left Honda, that prophecy seems to be fulfilled.

If Honda can win (which would have just happened if Mercedes weren't so amazing), McLaren are going to look a bit stupid.

The only silver lining for McLaren is that Lando Norris seems to be a very good addition for a rookie and should bag some points.
You serious ??

How many years Honda is developing ? First years with Mclaren were harsh, they now improved after all those years, can reverse the question, Mclaren with Renault improved big time in their 2nd year, so maybe Honda was the issue ? seriously.

It takes lot of time, to do what Mercedes did with their engines, maybe you don`t know but Merc was the first team to start building this engine, they entered F1 because of this very regulations, Ferrari needed like 4 seasons to match it.

By the way teams which buy their engines always will be in worse positions, remember RedBull Renault 2010-2014 ? how many times Renault failed, they even had some nasty alternator issues, if not the engine thing, the domination would have been even bigger.

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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by Jezza13 »

pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:Apparently Red Bull are saying they underestimated the power output of the Honda engine and designed a car to suit as been their custom for the last few years to offset a weak engine.

They are bringing a big aero update for Barcelona with much improved downforce.
I don't believe them. But we'll see what happens in Barcelona.
They found out in winter testing but it takes that long for the updates to come through.
Is there a link for this poker? I did a quick google search & came up empty handed & the only things I remember reading about RB & Honda after pre-season testing was that Honda went too aggressive on the engine packaging & the never ending vibration rumours.

Other than that the only comments I can remember reading were RB saying everything was great.
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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by Yellowbin74 »

Even if the Honda is underpowered, RB wont say so. They don't want to annoy Honda yet, or give Renault the ability to say "I told you so".

I can't help but wonder if this is why Marko made such a fuss about Gasly after pre-season testing.

Destroying the only new parts (which he did), therefore giving an excuse as to why they are slower than they want to be.

I wonder if more is being made of this than the actual effect of not being able to fully test the new bits on the car - therefore protecting Honda.
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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:One bad race for Redbull and we have to read of these complaints of double standards. Wow! Didn't a Redbull split the Ferraris in Melbourne? How close the midfield was to Max in Melbourne during the race? I would wait a few more races before making any kind of judgement that the Redbull is a midfield car this year. In Australia their trap speeds were super high, in Bahrain they were among the slowest in the traps. My guess is they are trying to add downforce to the car, but in Bahrain it didn't work for whatever reason. But Mclaren this year has done a great job and they are recovering. Now this year's Mclaren is pretty slippery and hence fast in the straights. This was a big problem for them last year, and likely during the Honda years too. But Mclaren is definitely still a midfield car. Let's not get carried away just yet.
What you're missing is that it doesn't matter if the McLaren is better than the Red Bull. Red Bull has gone from a great chassis (acknowledged by just about everyone as the best on the grid) to a chassis that - whether you think it's midfield or not - is obviously much worse, and this happened right after switching their engine. And yet, nobody is saying that their car was poor last year because of this year's chassis.

They are clearly given different treatment and the benefit of a doubt. People are willing to believe that they've created a weaker chassis this year than last. So why not with Macca?
That's because of the good cars they've built in recent years, I doubt you are going to see the chief designer being sacked and a major restructure of the design department?

You also seem to forget that Red Bull have form for starting seasons slowly especially when there has been a rules change, this is Red Bull performing poorly but McLaren would give their right arm for such results as would any midfield team.

Also you seem to be judging Red Bull far too soon after only 2 races, some had Bottas as the WDC after winning in Australia. :)
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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by pokerman »

Filip wrote:
pendulumeffect wrote:Verstappen is probably in the same situation now performance wise as last year but the added benefit of Honda money and sole manufacturer engine development for both Redbull teams.

Was McLaren really the problem in their relationship with Honda? They had a pretty crappy year with Merc before they got Honda engines. Granted, Honda were behind, but they pretty much accepted they needed to struggle for a while. McLaren fended off Honda from supplying extra teams, to keep the advantage of exclusitivity and avoiding other teams benefitting from their toils. And now they have left Honda, that prophecy seems to be fulfilled.

If Honda can win (which would have just happened if Mercedes weren't so amazing), McLaren are going to look a bit stupid.

The only silver lining for McLaren is that Lando Norris seems to be a very good addition for a rookie and should bag some points.
You serious ??

How many years Honda is developing ? First years with Mclaren were harsh, they now improved after all those years, can reverse the question, Mclaren with Renault improved big time in their 2nd year, so maybe Honda was the issue ? seriously.

It takes lot of time, to do what Mercedes did with their engines, maybe you don`t know but Merc was the first team to start building this engine, they entered F1 because of this very regulations, Ferrari needed like 4 seasons to match it.

By the way teams which buy their engines always will be in worse positions, remember RedBull Renault 2010-2014 ? how many times Renault failed, they even had some nasty alternator issues, if not the engine thing, the domination would have been even bigger.
Some serious re-visionary work going on there. :)
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Re: Honda podium in 1st Redbull race so were McLaren the pro

Post by pokerman »

Jezza13 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:Apparently Red Bull are saying they underestimated the power output of the Honda engine and designed a car to suit as been their custom for the last few years to offset a weak engine.

They are bringing a big aero update for Barcelona with much improved downforce.
I don't believe them. But we'll see what happens in Barcelona.
They found out in winter testing but it takes that long for the updates to come through.
Is there a link for this poker? I did a quick google search & came up empty handed & the only things I remember reading about RB & Honda after pre-season testing was that Honda went too aggressive on the engine packaging & the never ending vibration rumours.

Other than that the only comments I can remember reading were RB saying everything was great.
Inside information from the factory.
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