2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

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Jezza13
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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by Jezza13 »

It's so difficult to get a gauge on how good the RB is simply because the performance gap between Verstappen & Ghasly is so vast.

Is Verstappen really driving the wheels off it or is he simply putting it where it deserves to be & Ghasl'ys just performing very poorly?
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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by Rockie »

Jezza13 wrote:It's so difficult to get a gauge on how good the RB is simply because the performance gap between Verstappen & Ghasly is so vast.

Is Verstappen really driving the wheels off it or is he simply putting it where it deserves to be & Ghasl'ys just performing very poorly?
Easy he's putting it where it belongs.

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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by j man »

Jezza13 wrote:It's so difficult to get a gauge on how good the RB is simply because the performance gap between Verstappen & Ghasly is so vast.

Is Verstappen really driving the wheels off it or is he simply putting it where it deserves to be & Ghasl'ys just performing very poorly?
A bit of both I'd say. No matter how poor you think Gasly is, no one at this level is that far off the pace when they have the best car at their disposal. Max was just really on it; for me it's reminiscent of what Hamilton used to do in the McLaren, in that the car could be 2nd or 3rd fastest but so long as it was close enough he could make up the different to snatch some seemingly unlikely wins.

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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by Mercedes-Benz »

The car is designed for Max. He seems to have all the grip in the world where as poor Gasly is struggling. Some one in commentary was saying he got blister on his tyres on both soft and hard tyres. There is no way he is that bad and getting lapped. Alonso also used to have such advantage where he is able to attack but his team mate used to struggle. They are not going to make a new car for him. He will be dropped next year if he or the team can't find a fix for his problems.
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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by sandman1347 »

Mercedes-Benz wrote:Mercedes for some reason lacked pace through out the weekend. The commentator was saying their car was overheating. So may be they were driving at 90% or something in the race. Ferrari and RBR had some updates. RBR in particular seems to have got that magic grip again this race. On hard tyres Max was amazing.
The Mercedes has always had issues managing heat when the temperatures get extremely high. This has been their Achilles heel for years now; going back even before the V6 hybrid era.

The Red Bull still handles these types of conditions best. it's not that they had the outright single lap speed advantage but they had the ability to push hard during the race without suffering nearly as much as Ferrari or especially Mercedes. I think you have to give Max credit for sustaining that amazing pace but you must also credit the car for allowing him to push so hard on such a hot day without overheating. From Hamilton and Bottas's comments, it seems the Mercs were struggling literally from lap 4 or 5 with overheating.

The Ferrari had the outright pace here and it was really tire management that cost them the race relative to Max.

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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by Pullrod »

Any particular reason as to why RB car is a much better racing car(not the fastest) than the rest? They are able to follow others without losing too much and their braking is just out of this world.

What is their secret?? (Look at how RIC is struggling to replicate his RB tactics)

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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by Badgeronimous »

Pullrod wrote:Any particular reason as to why RB car is a much better racing car(not the fastest) than the rest? They are able to follow others without losing too much and their braking is just out of this world.

What is their secret?? (Look at how RIC is struggling to replicate his RB tactics)
Tbf Austria is quite a technically simple track, a bit like Interlagos.

I suspect that being a bit old school, without the complexes and radial bends that test the cars technical limits has a lot to do with it.

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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by Pullrod »

Badgeronimous wrote:
Pullrod wrote:Any particular reason as to why RB car is a much better racing car(not the fastest) than the rest? They are able to follow others without losing too much and their braking is just out of this world.

What is their secret?? (Look at how RIC is struggling to replicate his RB tactics)
Tbf Austria is quite a technically simple track, a bit like Interlagos.

I suspect that being a bit old school, without the complexes and radial bends that test the cars technical limits has a lot to do with it.
It is something I have noticed with RIC too Last year and the year before. Sometimes they are able to overtake the Ferrari and Mercedes like they were not even there.

Even today GAS was able to run the car ahead very close.

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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by Invade »

Well for once Merc laid an egg.

I'd suggest the order was RBR, Ferrari, Mercedes. Verstappen would have likely won by a landslide had he not had that terrible start and I don't think the qualifying difference between Ferrari and RBR was enough to overcome the sheer advantage RBR had in the race.

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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by Exediron »

Invade wrote:Well for once Merc laid an egg.

I'd suggest the order was RBR, Ferrari, Mercedes. Verstappen would have likely won by a landslide had he not had that terrible start and I don't think the qualifying difference between Ferrari and RBR was enough to overcome the sheer advantage RBR had in the race.
I'd say Ferrari, RBR, Mercedes. I think Ferrari had the fastest car, and shot themselves in the foot on race day with the soft tyre start.
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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by mikeyg123 »

Exediron wrote:
Invade wrote:Well for once Merc laid an egg.

I'd suggest the order was RBR, Ferrari, Mercedes. Verstappen would have likely won by a landslide had he not had that terrible start and I don't think the qualifying difference between Ferrari and RBR was enough to overcome the sheer advantage RBR had in the race.
I'd say Ferrari, RBR, Mercedes. I think Ferrari had the fastest car, and shot themselves in the foot on race day with the soft tyre start.
Ferrari had an edge with the car for me. Red Bull had the better strategy and perhaps the quicker driver.

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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by Invade »

Exediron wrote:
Invade wrote:Well for once Merc laid an egg.

I'd suggest the order was RBR, Ferrari, Mercedes. Verstappen would have likely won by a landslide had he not had that terrible start and I don't think the qualifying difference between Ferrari and RBR was enough to overcome the sheer advantage RBR had in the race.
I'd say Ferrari, RBR, Mercedes. I think Ferrari had the fastest car, and shot themselves in the foot on race day with the soft tyre start.

Fair and good argument.

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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by Johnson »

Ferrari had the fastest car, Leclerc had a slower race pace than Vettel. If Ferrari were 1-2 during this race with Vettel in P2 we may have seen a Vettel is faster than you.. Seb seemed to have a couple of tenths on Leclerc for race pace, which means he would have held on against Verstappen.

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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by pokerman »

It's hard to go with the notion of Ferrari being the quickest car given what Verstappen did, likewise it's hard to go with Red Bull having the quickest car given what Gasly did so I call it close to even with Mercedes obviously 3rd quickest, so:-

1. Mercedes 183
2. Ferrari 159
3. Red Bull 139
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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by Herb »

I think Red Bull was the car to have, despite Gasly's showing.

Verstappen's fastest was 2 tenths quicker than Vettel's, despite Vettel pitting for new softs.

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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by sandman1347 »

Herb wrote:I think Red Bull was the car to have, despite Gasly's showing.

Verstappen's fastest was 2 tenths quicker than Vettel's, despite Vettel pitting for new softs.
Yeah, I think that, in the race, the Red Bull was better than the Ferrari. Over one lap, the Ferrari was king but they did struggle with the tires during the race. Only Red Bull and Mclaren seemed to be able to go the whole race without tire issues.

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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by pokerman »

sandman1347 wrote:
Herb wrote:I think Red Bull was the car to have, despite Gasly's showing.

Verstappen's fastest was 2 tenths quicker than Vettel's, despite Vettel pitting for new softs.
Yeah, I think that, in the race, the Red Bull was better than the Ferrari. Over one lap, the Ferrari was king but they did struggle with the tires during the race. Only Red Bull and Mclaren seemed to be able to go the whole race without tire issues.
Leclerc never used new tyres and pitted quite early for hard tyres, I don't believe his strategy was maximised, also it tends to be a case of how much credit you give to the Red Bull and how much credit to Verstappen?
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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by sandman1347 »

pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Herb wrote:I think Red Bull was the car to have, despite Gasly's showing.

Verstappen's fastest was 2 tenths quicker than Vettel's, despite Vettel pitting for new softs.
Yeah, I think that, in the race, the Red Bull was better than the Ferrari. Over one lap, the Ferrari was king but they did struggle with the tires during the race. Only Red Bull and Mclaren seemed to be able to go the whole race without tire issues.
Leclerc never used new tyres and pitted quite early for hard tyres, I don't believe his strategy was maximised, also it tends to be a case of how much credit you give to the Red Bull and how much credit to Verstappen?
No not really. It takes the car and the driver to pull off a win like that. I agree that Ferrari did not optimize their strategy but Max was able to push very hard throughout the entire race. The Mercs were lifting and coasting 400 meters from the corner and both Ferrari drivers struggled a bit on tires as well. It was the ability to push hard while not burning through the tires that separated the Red Bull IMO.

Even Gasly was stuck behind Kimi and on his gearbox for almost 30 laps without suffering with his tires. If he were a better driver, a better result would have been there for the taking. As I mentioned earlier; Gasly's Q2 time would have netted him P5 in Q3 and he would have started P4 after Hamilton's penalty. The problem was that he actually went slower in Q3. That basically determined his race because Gasly is one of the worst overtakers out there.

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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by pokerman »

sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Herb wrote:I think Red Bull was the car to have, despite Gasly's showing.

Verstappen's fastest was 2 tenths quicker than Vettel's, despite Vettel pitting for new softs.
Yeah, I think that, in the race, the Red Bull was better than the Ferrari. Over one lap, the Ferrari was king but they did struggle with the tires during the race. Only Red Bull and Mclaren seemed to be able to go the whole race without tire issues.
Leclerc never used new tyres and pitted quite early for hard tyres, I don't believe his strategy was maximised, also it tends to be a case of how much credit you give to the Red Bull and how much credit to Verstappen?
No not really. It takes the car and the driver to pull off a win like that. I agree that Ferrari did not optimize their strategy but Max was able to push very hard throughout the entire race. The Mercs were lifting and coasting 400 meters from the corner and both Ferrari drivers struggled a bit on tires as well. It was the ability to push hard while not burning through the tires that separated the Red Bull IMO.

Even Gasly was stuck behind Kimi and on his gearbox for almost 30 laps without suffering with his tires. If he were a better driver, a better result would have been there for the taking. As I mentioned earlier; Gasly's Q2 time would have netted him P5 in Q3 and he would have started P4 after Hamilton's penalty. The problem was that he actually went slower in Q3. That basically determined his race because Gasly is one of the worst overtakers out there.
Gasly's fastest lap in Q2 was barely any quicker that that of a Haas, McLaren and Alfa Romeo and he may of not have out qualified Sainz who didn't take part in qualifying and was clearly the fastest driver in the race outside of the top 5?
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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by KingVoid »

The 2019 Mercedes is less dominant than the 2014-2016 cars, but it’s still the clear best car on the grid.

The 2019 Mercedes is similar to the 2011 and 2013 Red Bull cars.

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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by Mercedes-Benz »

Max was obviously the fastest driver even after the horrible start. Also setting the fastest lap. RBR had the best car for the race.

Vettel spent 47.4secs on pits compared to 21.8 by Charles and 21.1 by Max.
https://www.formula1.com/en/results.htm ... mmary.html
He finished some 17secs behind Charles and 19.6secs behind Max. Considering he spent more laps in traffic especially in the start where as Charles usually had clear track. Vettel was clearly the faster of the two driver. Had he not have problems on Saturday I think Vettel had a better chance of win.
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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by sandman1347 »

pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Herb wrote:I think Red Bull was the car to have, despite Gasly's showing.

Verstappen's fastest was 2 tenths quicker than Vettel's, despite Vettel pitting for new softs.
Yeah, I think that, in the race, the Red Bull was better than the Ferrari. Over one lap, the Ferrari was king but they did struggle with the tires during the race. Only Red Bull and Mclaren seemed to be able to go the whole race without tire issues.
Leclerc never used new tyres and pitted quite early for hard tyres, I don't believe his strategy was maximised, also it tends to be a case of how much credit you give to the Red Bull and how much credit to Verstappen?
No not really. It takes the car and the driver to pull off a win like that. I agree that Ferrari did not optimize their strategy but Max was able to push very hard throughout the entire race. The Mercs were lifting and coasting 400 meters from the corner and both Ferrari drivers struggled a bit on tires as well. It was the ability to push hard while not burning through the tires that separated the Red Bull IMO.

Even Gasly was stuck behind Kimi and on his gearbox for almost 30 laps without suffering with his tires. If he were a better driver, a better result would have been there for the taking. As I mentioned earlier; Gasly's Q2 time would have netted him P5 in Q3 and he would have started P4 after Hamilton's penalty. The problem was that he actually went slower in Q3. That basically determined his race because Gasly is one of the worst overtakers out there.
Gasly's fastest lap in Q2 was barely any quicker that that of a Haas, McLaren and Alfa Romeo and he may of not have out qualified Sainz who didn't take part in qualifying and was clearly the fastest driver in the race outside of the top 5?
Actually Gasly was nearly half a second quicker than Magnussen in Q2. The difference is that Gasly didn't improve his time in Q3 (pretty much unheard of). Because Gasly is performing so poorly we're going to suggest that the Red Bull is a slow car? Is Gasly supposed to be an established star now or something?

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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

Mercedes-Benz wrote:Max was obviously the fastest driver even after the horrible start. Also setting the fastest lap. RBR had the best car for the race.

Vettel spent 47.4secs on pits compared to 21.8 by Charles and 21.1 by Max.
https://www.formula1.com/en/results.htm ... mmary.html
He finished some 17secs behind Charles and 19.6secs behind Max. Considering he spent more laps in traffic especially in the start where as Charles usually had clear track. Vettel was clearly the faster of the two driver. Had he not have problems on Saturday I think Vettel had a better chance of win.
I doubt he would have finished ahead of Leclerc starting in second unless he got a good run in the first few corners (or team orders) but yeah Vettels pace looked better in the race overall IMO. Although it's worth noting Vettel had a different strategy, how much of his overall pace was down to that is an unknown.

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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by sandman1347 »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:Max was obviously the fastest driver even after the horrible start. Also setting the fastest lap. RBR had the best car for the race.

Vettel spent 47.4secs on pits compared to 21.8 by Charles and 21.1 by Max.
https://www.formula1.com/en/results.htm ... mmary.html
He finished some 17secs behind Charles and 19.6secs behind Max. Considering he spent more laps in traffic especially in the start where as Charles usually had clear track. Vettel was clearly the faster of the two driver. Had he not have problems on Saturday I think Vettel had a better chance of win.
I doubt he would have finished ahead of Leclerc starting in second unless he got a good run in the first few corners (or team orders) but yeah Vettels pace looked better in the race overall IMO. Although it's worth noting Vettel had a different strategy, how much of his overall pace was down to that is an unknown.
Probably a lot of that is down to strategy. He was pushing harder and he had fresher, softer tires for most of the race.

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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:Max was obviously the fastest driver even after the horrible start. Also setting the fastest lap. RBR had the best car for the race.

Vettel spent 47.4secs on pits compared to 21.8 by Charles and 21.1 by Max.
https://www.formula1.com/en/results.htm ... mmary.html
He finished some 17secs behind Charles and 19.6secs behind Max. Considering he spent more laps in traffic especially in the start where as Charles usually had clear track. Vettel was clearly the faster of the two driver. Had he not have problems on Saturday I think Vettel had a better chance of win.
I doubt he would have finished ahead of Leclerc starting in second unless he got a good run in the first few corners (or team orders) but yeah Vettels pace looked better in the race overall IMO. Although it's worth noting Vettel had a different strategy, how much of his overall pace was down to that is an unknown.
Probably a lot of that is down to strategy. He was pushing harder and he had fresher, softer tires for most of the race.
Well yes obviously but the offset to that is he lost more time in the pits by pitting twice. It comes down to whether the 1 stop or 2 stop was quickest overall and since there aren't many 2 stoppers it's hard to judge.

I'm just not convinced Leclerc had great pace in the race, I think the difference between Red Bull & Ferrari in race pace was largely attributable to a brilliant Verstappen performance and a not brilliant Leclerc performance.

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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by pokerman »

sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote: Yeah, I think that, in the race, the Red Bull was better than the Ferrari. Over one lap, the Ferrari was king but they did struggle with the tires during the race. Only Red Bull and Mclaren seemed to be able to go the whole race without tire issues.
Leclerc never used new tyres and pitted quite early for hard tyres, I don't believe his strategy was maximised, also it tends to be a case of how much credit you give to the Red Bull and how much credit to Verstappen?
No not really. It takes the car and the driver to pull off a win like that. I agree that Ferrari did not optimize their strategy but Max was able to push very hard throughout the entire race. The Mercs were lifting and coasting 400 meters from the corner and both Ferrari drivers struggled a bit on tires as well. It was the ability to push hard while not burning through the tires that separated the Red Bull IMO.

Even Gasly was stuck behind Kimi and on his gearbox for almost 30 laps without suffering with his tires. If he were a better driver, a better result would have been there for the taking. As I mentioned earlier; Gasly's Q2 time would have netted him P5 in Q3 and he would have started P4 after Hamilton's penalty. The problem was that he actually went slower in Q3. That basically determined his race because Gasly is one of the worst overtakers out there.
Gasly's fastest lap in Q2 was barely any quicker that that of a Haas, McLaren and Alfa Romeo and he may of not have out qualified Sainz who didn't take part in qualifying and was clearly the fastest driver in the race outside of the top 5?
Actually Gasly was nearly half a second quicker than Magnussen in Q2. The difference is that Gasly didn't improve his time in Q3 (pretty much unheard of). Because Gasly is performing so poorly we're going to suggest that the Red Bull is a slow car? Is Gasly supposed to be an established star now or something?
Both Alfa drivers went slower in Q3 as well so hardly unheard of, Norris only went a tenth quicker, KMag was the only one with a big improvement and like I said the fastest driver outside the top 5, Sainz, didn't take part in qualifying, Gasly's Q2 time is probably about the best he could do?

I don't understand the post about Gasly needing to be some kind of established star in order to inflate Verstappen's performance, being a bit less than average would suffice but we are pushing towards Gasly being about the worse driver on the grid?
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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by Siao7 »

Mercedes-Benz wrote:Max was obviously the fastest driver even after the horrible start. Also setting the fastest lap. RBR had the best car for the race.

Vettel spent 47.4secs on pits compared to 21.8 by Charles and 21.1 by Max.
https://www.formula1.com/en/results.htm ... mmary.html
He finished some 17secs behind Charles and 19.6secs behind Max. Considering he spent more laps in traffic especially in the start where as Charles usually had clear track. Vettel was clearly the faster of the two driver. Had he not have problems on Saturday I think Vettel had a better chance of win.
That's all true, but it ultimately means nothing. Saturday compromised his race, it does not matter if he was the fastest Ferrari, he had to start from further back and also had a knee jerk botched pit stop to top it off!

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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by sandman1347 »

pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote: No not really. It takes the car and the driver to pull off a win like that. I agree that Ferrari did not optimize their strategy but Max was able to push very hard throughout the entire race. The Mercs were lifting and coasting 400 meters from the corner and both Ferrari drivers struggled a bit on tires as well. It was the ability to push hard while not burning through the tires that separated the Red Bull IMO.

Even Gasly was stuck behind Kimi and on his gearbox for almost 30 laps without suffering with his tires. If he were a better driver, a better result would have been there for the taking. As I mentioned earlier; Gasly's Q2 time would have netted him P5 in Q3 and he would have started P4 after Hamilton's penalty. The problem was that he actually went slower in Q3. That basically determined his race because Gasly is one of the worst overtakers out there.
Gasly's fastest lap in Q2 was barely any quicker that that of a Haas, McLaren and Alfa Romeo and he may of not have out qualified Sainz who didn't take part in qualifying and was clearly the fastest driver in the race outside of the top 5?
Actually Gasly was nearly half a second quicker than Magnussen in Q2. The difference is that Gasly didn't improve his time in Q3 (pretty much unheard of). Because Gasly is performing so poorly we're going to suggest that the Red Bull is a slow car? Is Gasly supposed to be an established star now or something?
Both Alfa drivers went slower in Q3 as well so hardly unheard of, Norris only went a tenth quicker, KMag was the only one with a big improvement and like I said the fastest driver outside the top 5, Sainz, didn't take part in qualifying, Gasly's Q2 time is probably about the best he could do?

I don't understand the post about Gasly needing to be some kind of established star in order to inflate Verstappen's performance, being a bit less than average would suffice but we are pushing towards Gasly being about the worse driver on the grid?
I'd say he is undoubtedly among the bottom 5. On current performance he is only possibly better than Kubica in 2019 IMO. Let's say that his Q2 time was the best he could do. It was still well off of his teammate but strong enough to qualify P5. So he didn't need to be better than he was in Q2 because after Hamilton's penalty; he would have started the race right behind his teammate with that time.

There is no real need to inflate Max's performance. It was an objectively excellent performance. Suggesting that Gasly's race is a true representation of what the car was capable of that day is a joke IMO. Gasly's race pace was dictated by Raikkonen most of the day.

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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by pokerman »

sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote: No not really. It takes the car and the driver to pull off a win like that. I agree that Ferrari did not optimize their strategy but Max was able to push very hard throughout the entire race. The Mercs were lifting and coasting 400 meters from the corner and both Ferrari drivers struggled a bit on tires as well. It was the ability to push hard while not burning through the tires that separated the Red Bull IMO.

Even Gasly was stuck behind Kimi and on his gearbox for almost 30 laps without suffering with his tires. If he were a better driver, a better result would have been there for the taking. As I mentioned earlier; Gasly's Q2 time would have netted him P5 in Q3 and he would have started P4 after Hamilton's penalty. The problem was that he actually went slower in Q3. That basically determined his race because Gasly is one of the worst overtakers out there.
Gasly's fastest lap in Q2 was barely any quicker that that of a Haas, McLaren and Alfa Romeo and he may of not have out qualified Sainz who didn't take part in qualifying and was clearly the fastest driver in the race outside of the top 5?
Actually Gasly was nearly half a second quicker than Magnussen in Q2. The difference is that Gasly didn't improve his time in Q3 (pretty much unheard of). Because Gasly is performing so poorly we're going to suggest that the Red Bull is a slow car? Is Gasly supposed to be an established star now or something?
Both Alfa drivers went slower in Q3 as well so hardly unheard of, Norris only went a tenth quicker, KMag was the only one with a big improvement and like I said the fastest driver outside the top 5, Sainz, didn't take part in qualifying, Gasly's Q2 time is probably about the best he could do?

I don't understand the post about Gasly needing to be some kind of established star in order to inflate Verstappen's performance, being a bit less than average would suffice but we are pushing towards Gasly being about the worse driver on the grid?
I'd say he is undoubtedly among the bottom 5. On current performance he is only possibly better than Kubica in 2019 IMO. Let's say that his Q2 time was the best he could do. It was still well off of his teammate but strong enough to qualify P5. So he didn't need to be better than he was in Q2 because after Hamilton's penalty; he would have started the race right behind his teammate with that time.

There is no real need to inflate Max's performance. It was an objectively excellent performance. Suggesting that Gasly's race is a true representation of what the car was capable of that day is a joke IMO. Gasly's race pace was dictated by Raikkonen most of the day.
When did I suggest that Gasly's performance was the true performance of the Red Bull when I said that alongside the Ferrari it was the fastest car, faster than the Mercedes?
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ReservoirDog
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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by ReservoirDog »

Strange race this one. Red Bull faster in quali but slower in race. Lost how that's even possible. Ferrari wasn't even in the same Formula it seems this weekend.

Mercedes is still number#1 by a good margin, but the Bulls may beat Ferrari at a bunch of tracks. Next up is Spa I think, there Ferrari should be faster than Red Bull, might even be close to Mercedes. After Red Bull engine upgrade, it may be firmly above Ferrari rest of the season.

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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by Exediron »

ReservoirDog wrote:Strange race this one. Red Bull faster in quali but slower in race. Lost how that's even possible. Ferrari wasn't even in the same Formula it seems this weekend.

Mercedes is still number#1 by a good margin, but the Bulls may beat Ferrari at a bunch of tracks. Next up is Spa I think, there Ferrari should be faster than Red Bull, might even be close to Mercedes. After Red Bull engine upgrade, it may be firmly above Ferrari rest of the season.
Since Bottas was the lead Mercedes - and was only 0.018 off Max - I'm inclined to say the Red Bull was slower all weekend, and Max simply outperformed both Mercedes drivers on Saturday.

Merc > RBR > Ferrari in Hungary.
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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by Invade »

I have it the same with qualifying scores of 7, 6 and 5 to Verstappen, Bottas and Hamilton respectively (highest possible score is 8 in my high science nanotechnology spreadsheets).

Merc with an edge on RBR and Ferrari a long way behind, and Hamilton with the fastest race-pace relative to car performance.

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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:Strange race this one. Red Bull faster in quali but slower in race. Lost how that's even possible. Ferrari wasn't even in the same Formula it seems this weekend.

Mercedes is still number#1 by a good margin, but the Bulls may beat Ferrari at a bunch of tracks. Next up is Spa I think, there Ferrari should be faster than Red Bull, might even be close to Mercedes. After Red Bull engine upgrade, it may be firmly above Ferrari rest of the season.
Since Bottas was the lead Mercedes - and was only 0.018 off Max - I'm inclined to say the Red Bull was slower all weekend, and Max simply outperformed both Mercedes drivers on Saturday.

Merc > RBR > Ferrari in Hungary.
Yeah I'd go along with that, I thought we'd given up on this thread after missing a couple of races?
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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by pokerman »

Invade wrote:I have it the same with qualifying scores of 7, 6 and 5 to Verstappen, Bottas and Hamilton respectively (highest possible score is 8 in my high science nanotechnology spreadsheets).

Merc with an edge on RBR and Ferrari a long way behind, and Hamilton with the fastest race-pace relative to car performance.
Nanotechnology spreadsheets, that sounds interesting?
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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by Option or Prime »

pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:I have it the same with qualifying scores of 7, 6 and 5 to Verstappen, Bottas and Hamilton respectively (highest possible score is 8 in my high science nanotechnology spreadsheets).

Merc with an edge on RBR and Ferrari a long way behind, and Hamilton with the fastest race-pace relative to car performance.
Nanotechnology spreadsheets, that sounds interesting?
Problem is that you need an electron microscope to read them! :?

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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by pokerman »

Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:I have it the same with qualifying scores of 7, 6 and 5 to Verstappen, Bottas and Hamilton respectively (highest possible score is 8 in my high science nanotechnology spreadsheets).

Merc with an edge on RBR and Ferrari a long way behind, and Hamilton with the fastest race-pace relative to car performance.
Nanotechnology spreadsheets, that sounds interesting?
Problem is that you need an electron microscope to read them! :?
I think is starting to go above my head a bit? :lol:
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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by JN23 »

Out of interest, how have people scored Germany, if they have at all?

Ferrari looked strong on one lap pace until they imploded and I think when Merc turned it up it would have been pretty close. Due to the lack of comparison I'd be tempted to call it a tie.

Race pace though is almost impossible to call due to the weather and impact being stuck behind someone had (Verstappen behind Bottas, Hamilton behind Albon). Also the impact of being on new inters, look at the pace of Leclerc after he pitted.

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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by pokerman »

JN23 wrote:Out of interest, how have people scored Germany, if they have at all?

Ferrari looked strong on one lap pace until they imploded and I think when Merc turned it up it would have been pretty close. Due to the lack of comparison I'd be tempted to call it a tie.

Race pace though is almost impossible to call due to the weather and impact being stuck behind someone had (Verstappen behind Bottas, Hamilton behind Albon). Also the impact of being on new inters, look at the pace of Leclerc after he pitted.
Ferrari were looking good for pole, I think it would have been close, a tie seems about right with Red Bull 3rd best?
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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by sandman1347 »

So it's clear that things have changed at this point. Ferrari seem to have fully unlocked their package and a few things are now apparent. One is that their electrical energy deployment is just on a completely different level to everyone else. Their acceleration out of corners is totally in a class of its own and their top speed is also fantastic but it's the launch down the straight and that low end power that is separating them right now.

Another thing that has happened is that they seem to have solved their downforce deficit through in-season upgrades. In qualifying at Russia, they were not losing anything to Mercedes through the corners and that says something. To be fastest at circuits ranging from Monza to Spa to Singapore says even more. It's not circuit-dependent at this point. Ferrari simply have the fastest car. There is a sense, when you look back on races like Bahrain, Montreal and Germany, that Ferrari have had the car with a fundamentally higher ceiling than Mercedes but, wheres Mercedes were dialed in and extracting the maximum from their car since the start of the year, Ferrari sometimes struggled with the car and the car was a bit of a diva.

The pace is undeniable now though and the question is; what is going on at Mercedes? Merc have been surpassed in development as though they were standing still. I understand shifting resources towards next season to some extent but not to such an extreme as to leave you lagging behind with half a season to go. The area where they have really lost out is engine performance. You can see it in their customers too. The Merc engine no longer provides any real advantage whatsoever. They've been winning with their chassis and they have been extremely fortunate to have the new tire formula suit them so perfectly but I think that they have been losing ground in terms of raw performance. Next year we will probably see Ferrari even stronger and I question whether Mercedes can develop that PU substantially from this point forward. They are losing out big time when it comes to the hybrid system now.

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Re: 2019 Mercedes vs. Ferrari vs. Red bull

Post by Badgeronimous »

I still say that Mercedes has the faster race car, and thats been the case over the last few races too but.... the sections of the track where the Mercedes is faster - they can't do anything about being behind the Ferrari - where the overtaking opportunities are..... the Ferrari is faster and can defend easily. Track position is key as that Ferrari is a hard car to overtake, because as you say it launches well of the corner, energy deploys well and its quick in a straight line.

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