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pokerman wrote:Then we're simply back to Leclerc's poor strategy he should have gone medium, medium, soft.

Assuming that the original plan was to one-stop, the strategy didn't have much wiggle-room.

tootsie323 wrote:

pokerman wrote:Then we're simply back to Leclerc's poor strategy he should have gone medium, medium, soft.

Assuming that the original plan was to one-stop, the strategy didn't have much wiggle-room.

Apparently some are saying they were hoping for a SC but still how does that help Leclerc if the softs are no good.

Someone suggested he only had 1 set of mediums for the race because he damaged a set when he crashed in Q2 but his tyre allocation shows I new set and 1 used set of mediums for the race.

pokerman wrote:

tootsie323 wrote:

pokerman wrote:Then we're simply back to Leclerc's poor strategy he should have gone medium, medium, soft.

Assuming that the original plan was to one-stop, the strategy didn't have much wiggle-room.

Apparently some are saying they were hoping for a SC but still how does that help Leclerc if the softs are no good.

Someone suggested he only had 1 set of mediums for the race because he damaged a set when he crashed in Q2 but his tyre allocation shows I new set and 1 used set of mediums for the race.

well if there's a SC then the field bunches up and Leclerc nursing his softs up to that point would give him a pace advantage over the cars in front. They were poor race tyres because they ran out too quickly, but they had a slim chance to make it to the end if the SC cut the number of racing laps.

Thinking about it, it's not as bad a strategy as it first seemed. Leclerc compromised his race by starting on the mediums in the middle of the pack and had to spend too long pushing to get with the front runners. Bolting on Mediums would have just consolidated his position as he was too far behind Verstappen after he pitted to make an impact in the remaining laps, while far enough ahead of anyone else that he was never under threat. At that point his race was virtually done and all he had was a SC gamble and if there wasn't one then hey had plenty of time in hand to attempt the fastest lap, which they did.

Begs the question what Ferrari were playing at trying to start both cars on mediums.

mikeyg123 wrote:Begs the question what Ferrari were playing at trying to start both cars on mediums.

I could be wrong but IIRC in the past Baku has seen virtually no tyre deg. I suspect they thought both the Softs and the Mediums would last longer than they did and with Mercedes hiding their pace in Practice they probably felt they had a reasonable margin to play with. If the two Ferraris had qualified on the front row, like it looked like would happen when Qualifying started, then they could have had an extended stint at the front, pulling away from everyone else, and bolted on the Softs to cruise to the finish. But I think Leclerc took more life than expected when charging through the field and scuppered that plan, which was made worse by the fact the Softs proved to be such a poor race tyre.

With hindsight it was a bad strategy. But at the time with the info they had it probably made more sense.

Zoue wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:Begs the question what Ferrari were playing at trying to start both cars on mediums.

I could be wrong but IIRC in the past Baku has seen virtually no tyre deg. I suspect they thought both the Softs and the Mediums would last longer than they did and with Mercedes hiding their pace in Practice they probably felt they had a reasonable margin to play with. If the two Ferraris had qualified on the front row, like it looked like would happen when Qualifying started, then they could have had an extended stint at the front, pulling away from everyone else, and bolted on the Softs to cruise to the finish. But I think Leclerc took more life than expected when charging through the field and scuppered that plan, which was made worse by the fact the Softs proved to be such a poor race tyre.

With hindsight it was a bad strategy. But at the time with the info they had it probably made more sense.

Yeah that sounds quite plausible.

Reading through the posts it is hard to see any strategy that actually would have worked for Leclerc beyond pitting for hards which he would have needed to do on lap 15 which would have put him about 4 seconds in front of Verstappen, I've seen no expert explanation for why the hards were not considered.

A good explanation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETvNXg_fJN4

Anyone else see that article with vettel saying Merc domination is boring?? Hahahahahaha the irony

FormulaFun wrote:Anyone else see that article with vettel saying Merc domination is boring?? Hahahahahaha the irony

He's not wrong. I found 2013 boring, I found 2014-2016 boring, and if this keeps up I'm likely to find 2019 boring.

It is a bit ironic for someone who spent three of his four championship years in dominant cars, however. Although it must be pointed out that Hamilton has actually spent at least as many years in dominant cars as Vettel by now -- Vettel only really had 3 cars that should have been dominant (2010, 2011, 2013) and Hamilton has also had three (2014, 2015, 2016). So if another team dominates and he complains that it's boring or bad for the sport, he'll be equally hypocritical to do it.

FormulaFun wrote:Anyone else see that article with vettel saying Merc domination is boring?? Hahahahahaha the irony

It's not exactly exciting seeing Ferrari order Leclerc out of Sebs way at every opportunity is it?
If nothing else, looks like Bottas is a genuine challenger for the WDC this year.
Just imagine the bore-fest if Ferrari were on top so far!

Exediron wrote:

FormulaFun wrote:Anyone else see that article with vettel saying Merc domination is boring?? Hahahahahaha the irony

He's not wrong. I found 2013 boring, I found 2014-2016 boring, and if this keeps up I'm likely to find 2019 boring.

It is a bit ironic for someone who spent three of his four championship years in dominant cars, however. Although it must be pointed out that Hamilton has actually spent at least as many years in dominant cars as Vettel by now -- Vettel only really had 3 cars that should have been dominant (2010, 2011, 2013) and Hamilton has also had three (2014, 2015, 2016). So if another team dominates and he complains that it's boring or bad for the sport, he'll be equally hypocritical to do it.

I don't disagree with him, just think it's ridiculously ironic thst it's coming from vettel who pretty much owes all his success to the dominant years at red bull. At least in 2014,2015 and 2016 we had the internal fighting at Merc between Rosberg and Hamilton. 2011 and 2013 were the most boring years in F1 since Schumacher was in his prime

FormulaFun wrote:Anyone else see that article with vettel saying Merc domination is boring?? Hahahahahaha the irony

No I've not seen it, nice how he is able to compartmentalise the 2018 season being convinced that Ferrari diidn't give him a good enough car.

Laz_T800 wrote:

FormulaFun wrote:Anyone else see that article with vettel saying Merc domination is boring?? Hahahahahaha the irony

It's not exactly exciting seeing Ferrari order Leclerc out of Sebs way at every opportunity is it?
If nothing else, looks like Bottas is a genuine challenger for the WDC this year.
Just imagine the bore-fest if Ferrari were on top so far!

Strange you say that because after winter testing I was thinking Ferrari were much stronger than Mercedes but at least Vettel might have some competition from Leclerc instead of Kimi being a Webber mk2 reenactment of the Red Bull years, Ferrari controlling things with team orders would be worse.

pokerman wrote:

Laz_T800 wrote:

FormulaFun wrote:Anyone else see that article with vettel saying Merc domination is boring?? Hahahahahaha the irony

It's not exactly exciting seeing Ferrari order Leclerc out of Sebs way at every opportunity is it?
If nothing else, looks like Bottas is a genuine challenger for the WDC this year.
Just imagine the bore-fest if Ferrari were on top so far!

Strange you say that because after winter testing I was thinking Ferrari were much stronger than Mercedes but at least Vettel might have some competition from Leclerc instead of Kimi being a Webber mk2 reenactment of the Red Bull years, Ferrari controlling things with team orders would be worse.

I don't see it continuing much longer, tbh. Ferrari are just trying to focus everything on getting the WDC this year and I can see the logic that says let's back a 4 times WDC as our most likely bet for that to happen over a largely unproven rookie, no matter how great the potential. But unless Vettel gets on top of things pretty damn soon then I suspect Ferrari will abandon that plan. They're not going to wait forever for him to deliver. I shouldn't be surprised if they've canned it already tbh

If Leclerc had started the race from pole on the mediums then he had a small chance to win still I think. However, the big influencer this race I think would be that Mercedes seemed much better on the soft tyre. The optimum strategy was to spend as much of the race as possible on the medium whilst maintaining track position.

Once Leclerc got clean air, from about lap 5 onwards he was lapping 0.7-1.0 a lap quicker than the Mercedes drivers. If he had started on pole and not destroyed his tyres a bit going through traffic, its a reasonable assumption he could have had a 10 second lead over Mercedes by the time of the first stops, at which point he could have switched to a 2 stopper. A short agressive stint on softs before switching to Mediums and hauling Mercedes in with a much fresher tyre. Or he could have put on the hard to the end, he would have had track position but that would have been a bit risky.

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Laz_T800 wrote:

FormulaFun wrote:Anyone else see that article with vettel saying Merc domination is boring?? Hahahahahaha the irony

It's not exactly exciting seeing Ferrari order Leclerc out of Sebs way at every opportunity is it?
If nothing else, looks like Bottas is a genuine challenger for the WDC this year.
Just imagine the bore-fest if Ferrari were on top so far!

Strange you say that because after winter testing I was thinking Ferrari were much stronger than Mercedes but at least Vettel might have some competition from Leclerc instead of Kimi being a Webber mk2 reenactment of the Red Bull years, Ferrari controlling things with team orders would be worse.

I don't see it continuing much longer, tbh. Ferrari are just trying to focus everything on getting the WDC this year and I can see the logic that says let's back a 4 times WDC as our most likely bet for that to happen over a largely unproven rookie, no matter how great the potential. But unless Vettel gets on top of things pretty damn soon then I suspect Ferrari will abandon that plan. They're not going to wait forever for him to deliver. I shouldn't be surprised if they've canned it already tbh

I see there's an article in Autosport were Vettel admits he's under performing because he finds the Ferrari unnatural to drive, I guess in part he's referencing the two weekends were he was all at sea in comparison to Leclerc because in Barcelona testing he was more than happy with the car?

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Laz_T800 wrote:

FormulaFun wrote:Anyone else see that article with vettel saying Merc domination is boring?? Hahahahahaha the irony

It's not exactly exciting seeing Ferrari order Leclerc out of Sebs way at every opportunity is it?
If nothing else, looks like Bottas is a genuine challenger for the WDC this year.
Just imagine the bore-fest if Ferrari were on top so far!

Strange you say that because after winter testing I was thinking Ferrari were much stronger than Mercedes but at least Vettel might have some competition from Leclerc instead of Kimi being a Webber mk2 reenactment of the Red Bull years, Ferrari controlling things with team orders would be worse.

I don't see it continuing much longer, tbh. Ferrari are just trying to focus everything on getting the WDC this year and I can see the logic that says let's back a 4 times WDC as our most likely bet for that to happen over a largely unproven rookie, no matter how great the potential. But unless Vettel gets on top of things pretty damn soon then I suspect Ferrari will abandon that plan. They're not going to wait forever for him to deliver. I shouldn't be surprised if they've canned it already tbh

I see there's an article in Autosport were Vettel admits he's under performing because he finds the Ferrari unnatural to drive, I guess in part he's referencing the two weekends were he was all at sea in comparison to Leclerc because in Barcelona testing he was more than happy with the car?

Yes he's admitted he hasn't been able to find the same confidence since Barcelona. I think he's been quite openly self-critical in taking the blame for it tbh

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Laz_T800 wrote: It's not exactly exciting seeing Ferrari order Leclerc out of Sebs way at every opportunity is it?
If nothing else, looks like Bottas is a genuine challenger for the WDC this year.
Just imagine the bore-fest if Ferrari were on top so far!

Strange you say that because after winter testing I was thinking Ferrari were much stronger than Mercedes but at least Vettel might have some competition from Leclerc instead of Kimi being a Webber mk2 reenactment of the Red Bull years, Ferrari controlling things with team orders would be worse.

I don't see it continuing much longer, tbh. Ferrari are just trying to focus everything on getting the WDC this year and I can see the logic that says let's back a 4 times WDC as our most likely bet for that to happen over a largely unproven rookie, no matter how great the potential. But unless Vettel gets on top of things pretty damn soon then I suspect Ferrari will abandon that plan. They're not going to wait forever for him to deliver. I shouldn't be surprised if they've canned it already tbh

I see there's an article in Autosport were Vettel admits he's under performing because he finds the Ferrari unnatural to drive, I guess in part he's referencing the two weekends were he was all at sea in comparison to Leclerc because in Barcelona testing he was more than happy with the car?

Yes he's admitted he hasn't been able to find the same confidence since Barcelona. I think he's been quite openly self-critical in taking the blame for it tbh

Could this be a case of 2014 revisited?

Vettel struggles with a car upon having a new teammate, and then we ask how much is it down to the car or the teammate?

pokerman wrote: Could this be a case of 2014 revisited?

Vettel struggles with a car upon having a new teammate, and then we ask how much is it down to the car or the teammate?

Ricciardo was better against Vettel than Leclerc has been. It will be interesting to see how the partnership progresses over the rest of the season.

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:Strange you say that because after winter testing I was thinking Ferrari were much stronger than Mercedes but at least Vettel might have some competition from Leclerc instead of Kimi being a Webber mk2 reenactment of the Red Bull years, Ferrari controlling things with team orders would be worse.

I don't see it continuing much longer, tbh. Ferrari are just trying to focus everything on getting the WDC this year and I can see the logic that says let's back a 4 times WDC as our most likely bet for that to happen over a largely unproven rookie, no matter how great the potential. But unless Vettel gets on top of things pretty damn soon then I suspect Ferrari will abandon that plan. They're not going to wait forever for him to deliver. I shouldn't be surprised if they've canned it already tbh

I see there's an article in Autosport were Vettel admits he's under performing because he finds the Ferrari unnatural to drive, I guess in part he's referencing the two weekends were he was all at sea in comparison to Leclerc because in Barcelona testing he was more than happy with the car?

Yes he's admitted he hasn't been able to find the same confidence since Barcelona. I think he's been quite openly self-critical in taking the blame for it tbh

Could this be a case of 2014 revisited?

Vettel struggles with a car upon having a new teammate, and then we ask how much is it down to the car or the teammate?

I don't think it's either. It's down to Vettel not being able to adapt. And in both years it's not just the team mate that changed but the regulations, too, so maybe he just has trouble with change. To be fair to the guy he's never tried to claim otherwise. In 2014 he was upfront in saying that Ricciardo had just done a better job than him, while this year he's also not trying to hide the fact that he's simply not been able to adapt properly and hasn't been able to regain the confidence in the car he had in Barcelona testing. I don't think we need to look much further than that tbh

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote: Could this be a case of 2014 revisited?

Vettel struggles with a car upon having a new teammate, and then we ask how much is it down to the car or the teammate?

Ricciardo was better against Vettel than Leclerc has been. It will be interesting to see how the partnership progresses over the rest of the season.

Yes and it's still early days, a similar dynamic though that I find interesting.

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote: I don't see it continuing much longer, tbh. Ferrari are just trying to focus everything on getting the WDC this year and I can see the logic that says let's back a 4 times WDC as our most likely bet for that to happen over a largely unproven rookie, no matter how great the potential. But unless Vettel gets on top of things pretty damn soon then I suspect Ferrari will abandon that plan. They're not going to wait forever for him to deliver. I shouldn't be surprised if they've canned it already tbh

I see there's an article in Autosport were Vettel admits he's under performing because he finds the Ferrari unnatural to drive, I guess in part he's referencing the two weekends were he was all at sea in comparison to Leclerc because in Barcelona testing he was more than happy with the car?

Yes he's admitted he hasn't been able to find the same confidence since Barcelona. I think he's been quite openly self-critical in taking the blame for it tbh

Could this be a case of 2014 revisited?

Vettel struggles with a car upon having a new teammate, and then we ask how much is it down to the car or the teammate?

I don't think it's either. It's down to Vettel not being able to adapt. And in both years it's not just the team mate that changed but the regulations, too, so maybe he just has trouble with change. To be fair to the guy he's never tried to claim otherwise. In 2014 he was upfront in saying that Ricciardo had just done a better job than him, while this year he's also not trying to hide the fact that he's simply not been able to adapt properly and hasn't been able to regain the confidence in the car he had in Barcelona testing. I don't think we need to look much further than that tbh

It's interesting though in trying to understand what Vettel is all about, does he have big ebbs and flows in his performance level depending upon the car?

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:I see there's an article in Autosport were Vettel admits he's under performing because he finds the Ferrari unnatural to drive, I guess in part he's referencing the two weekends were he was all at sea in comparison to Leclerc because in Barcelona testing he was more than happy with the car?

Yes he's admitted he hasn't been able to find the same confidence since Barcelona. I think he's been quite openly self-critical in taking the blame for it tbh

Could this be a case of 2014 revisited?

Vettel struggles with a car upon having a new teammate, and then we ask how much is it down to the car or the teammate?

I don't think it's either. It's down to Vettel not being able to adapt. And in both years it's not just the team mate that changed but the regulations, too, so maybe he just has trouble with change. To be fair to the guy he's never tried to claim otherwise. In 2014 he was upfront in saying that Ricciardo had just done a better job than him, while this year he's also not trying to hide the fact that he's simply not been able to adapt properly and hasn't been able to regain the confidence in the car he had in Barcelona testing. I don't think we need to look much further than that tbh

It's interesting though in trying to understand what Vettel is all about, does he have big ebbs and flows in his performance level depending upon the car?

I think if you have to materially change your driving style then you're bound to lose some performance. Some drivers are better than others in minimizing the impact. Kimi was/is notorious for struggling unless all the planets lined up and it looks like Vettel maybe also has issues, although personally I think to a much lesser extent. He's shown that he does have it in him to perform once comfortable so I'm inclined to view as a blip. E.g. his performance on Sunday improved dramatically once he put on the Mediums so it looks like he's maybe struggling a bit with tyre management more than anything else

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote: Yes he's admitted he hasn't been able to find the same confidence since Barcelona. I think he's been quite openly self-critical in taking the blame for it tbh

Could this be a case of 2014 revisited?

Vettel struggles with a car upon having a new teammate, and then we ask how much is it down to the car or the teammate?

I don't think it's either. It's down to Vettel not being able to adapt. And in both years it's not just the team mate that changed but the regulations, too, so maybe he just has trouble with change. To be fair to the guy he's never tried to claim otherwise. In 2014 he was upfront in saying that Ricciardo had just done a better job than him, while this year he's also not trying to hide the fact that he's simply not been able to adapt properly and hasn't been able to regain the confidence in the car he had in Barcelona testing. I don't think we need to look much further than that tbh

It's interesting though in trying to understand what Vettel is all about, does he have big ebbs and flows in his performance level depending upon the car?

I think if you have to materially change your driving style then you're bound to lose some performance. Some drivers are better than others in minimizing the impact. Kimi was/is notorious for struggling unless all the planets lined up and it looks like Vettel maybe also has issues, although personally I think to a much lesser extent. He's shown that he does have it in him to perform once comfortable so I'm inclined to view as a blip. E.g. his performance on Sunday improved dramatically once he put on the Mediums so it looks like he's maybe struggling a bit with tyre management more than anything else

Apparently Hamilton had to change his driving style to be competitive in qualifying in China, in fact his slow starts of recent seasons have been put down to him coming to terms with a new car and new tyres, I like the fact that F1 should be about drivers having to solve puzzles and is not too easy for the drivers.

I know your not happy about the tyres but apart from the softs which were basically a qualifying tyre, the drivers were able to race hard on the medium tyres so I've no real problems with the tyres on that score, in respect to Vettel if it's a lack of adaptability then that's just another weakness.

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:Could this be a case of 2014 revisited?

Vettel struggles with a car upon having a new teammate, and then we ask how much is it down to the car or the teammate?

I don't think it's either. It's down to Vettel not being able to adapt. And in both years it's not just the team mate that changed but the regulations, too, so maybe he just has trouble with change. To be fair to the guy he's never tried to claim otherwise. In 2014 he was upfront in saying that Ricciardo had just done a better job than him, while this year he's also not trying to hide the fact that he's simply not been able to adapt properly and hasn't been able to regain the confidence in the car he had in Barcelona testing. I don't think we need to look much further than that tbh

It's interesting though in trying to understand what Vettel is all about, does he have big ebbs and flows in his performance level depending upon the car?

I think if you have to materially change your driving style then you're bound to lose some performance. Some drivers are better than others in minimizing the impact. Kimi was/is notorious for struggling unless all the planets lined up and it looks like Vettel maybe also has issues, although personally I think to a much lesser extent. He's shown that he does have it in him to perform once comfortable so I'm inclined to view as a blip. E.g. his performance on Sunday improved dramatically once he put on the Mediums so it looks like he's maybe struggling a bit with tyre management more than anything else

Apparently Hamilton had to change his driving style to be competitive in qualifying in China, in fact his slow starts of recent seasons have been put down to him coming to terms with a new car and new tyres, I like the fact that F1 should be about drivers having to solve puzzles and is not too easy for the drivers.

I know your not happy about the tyres but apart from the softs which were basically a qualifying tyre, the drivers were able to race hard on the medium tyres so I've no real problems with the tyres on that score, in respect to Vettel if it's a lack of adaptability then that's just another weakness.

It is a weakness, no argument there.

It wasn't just Vettel who struggled with the tyres, though. Look at that Mark Hughes article and basically the whole thing was an article on how much the tyres affected the racing. I agree that driving around issues should be part of a driver's armory but I think the level of influence the tyres have is borderline ridiculous. They shouldn't have that much impact and it's completely disproportionate in my book. I also agree with Steiner's comments, which echoed ones Stephan Johanssen made on his blog, that teams shouldn't be spending tens of millions on developing the cars for the outcome to be partially determined by how they react to the rubber, especially when that's often something they can't really predict. And these tyres are too thermally sensitive to allow for proper racing

I think media has played a big part in making everyone believe that Ferrari as favorites at the start of this year. Ferrari might have had good winter testing and it looked as if Mercedes and RBR are behind but it is these two teams who are getting more from their car than Ferrari. I thought RBR recovered really quick from Bahrain and were strong in Baku which is not their best track. Although media still claims they are loosing 0.4secs to Ferrari in straights. Mercedes has the best package. Ferrari has the advantage to RBR in qualifying but in race RBR were able to match them in Baku.

At this stage, I think we have to acknowledge that Ferrari, overall, seem less competitive with Mercedes this year than they were in either 2017 or 2018. Ferrari have had one weekend (Bahrain) where they were clearly best of the best but Mercedes have clearly had the edge in 4 of the 5 rounds. I cannot explain Ferrari's dominance in Bahrain. You'd think that would suggest that they would have the edge at power tracks but that hasn't really manifested itself anywhere else. Maybe we'll see some more races where Ferrari will have the edge. Places like Monza and Mexico might still suit them but I think that, thus far at least, Mercedes have clearly been the best car overall. Barcelona kind of cements it for me. Ferrari brought a massive swath of upgrades but they were still quite far behind. Mercedes are just faster IMO as well as being more reliable.

sandman1347 wrote:At this stage, I think we have to acknowledge that Ferrari, overall, seem less competitive with Mercedes this year than they were in either 2017 or 2018. Ferrari have had one weekend (Bahrain) where they were clearly best of the best but Mercedes have clearly had the edge in 4 of the 5 rounds. I cannot explain Ferrari's dominance in Bahrain. You'd think that would suggest that they would have the edge at power tracks but that hasn't really manifested itself anywhere else. Maybe we'll see some more races where Ferrari will have the edge. Places like Monza and Mexico might still suit them but I think that, thus far at least, Mercedes have clearly been the best car overall. Barcelona kind of cements it for me. Ferrari brought a massive swath of upgrades but they were still quite far behind. Mercedes are just faster IMO as well as being more reliable.

Only thing that springs to mind is temperatures.

Zoue wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:At this stage, I think we have to acknowledge that Ferrari, overall, seem less competitive with Mercedes this year than they were in either 2017 or 2018. Ferrari have had one weekend (Bahrain) where they were clearly best of the best but Mercedes have clearly had the edge in 4 of the 5 rounds. I cannot explain Ferrari's dominance in Bahrain. You'd think that would suggest that they would have the edge at power tracks but that hasn't really manifested itself anywhere else. Maybe we'll see some more races where Ferrari will have the edge. Places like Monza and Mexico might still suit them but I think that, thus far at least, Mercedes have clearly been the best car overall. Barcelona kind of cements it for me. Ferrari brought a massive swath of upgrades but they were still quite far behind. Mercedes are just faster IMO as well as being more reliable.

Only thing that springs to mind is temperatures.

Maybe but I doubt it. Even the theory that Ferrari have to run with their engines tuned down due to reliability concerns doesn't hold much weight anymore because that wouldn't hamper them in qualifying presumably (I'd imagine that a single lap at full beans wouldn't be the threshold for inducing failure). I think Ferrari just had a lot of people fooled this year and perhaps their overall package just isn't nearly as impressive as their PU.

sandman1347 wrote:

Zoue wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:At this stage, I think we have to acknowledge that Ferrari, overall, seem less competitive with Mercedes this year than they were in either 2017 or 2018. Ferrari have had one weekend (Bahrain) where they were clearly best of the best but Mercedes have clearly had the edge in 4 of the 5 rounds. I cannot explain Ferrari's dominance in Bahrain. You'd think that would suggest that they would have the edge at power tracks but that hasn't really manifested itself anywhere else. Maybe we'll see some more races where Ferrari will have the edge. Places like Monza and Mexico might still suit them but I think that, thus far at least, Mercedes have clearly been the best car overall. Barcelona kind of cements it for me. Ferrari brought a massive swath of upgrades but they were still quite far behind. Mercedes are just faster IMO as well as being more reliable.

Only thing that springs to mind is temperatures.

Maybe but I doubt it. Even the theory that Ferrari have to run with their engines tuned down due to reliability concerns doesn't hold much weight anymore because that wouldn't hamper them in qualifying presumably (I'd imagine that a single lap at full beans wouldn't be the threshold for inducing failure). I think Ferrari just had a lot of people fooled this year and perhaps their overall package just isn't nearly as impressive as their PU.

Yeah if it carries on like this it won't be too long before we can close the thread.

pokerman wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

Zoue wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:At this stage, I think we have to acknowledge that Ferrari, overall, seem less competitive with Mercedes this year than they were in either 2017 or 2018. Ferrari have had one weekend (Bahrain) where they were clearly best of the best but Mercedes have clearly had the edge in 4 of the 5 rounds. I cannot explain Ferrari's dominance in Bahrain. You'd think that would suggest that they would have the edge at power tracks but that hasn't really manifested itself anywhere else. Maybe we'll see some more races where Ferrari will have the edge. Places like Monza and Mexico might still suit them but I think that, thus far at least, Mercedes have clearly been the best car overall. Barcelona kind of cements it for me. Ferrari brought a massive swath of upgrades but they were still quite far behind. Mercedes are just faster IMO as well as being more reliable.

Only thing that springs to mind is temperatures.

Maybe but I doubt it. Even the theory that Ferrari have to run with their engines tuned down due to reliability concerns doesn't hold much weight anymore because that wouldn't hamper them in qualifying presumably (I'd imagine that a single lap at full beans wouldn't be the threshold for inducing failure). I think Ferrari just had a lot of people fooled this year and perhaps their overall package just isn't nearly as impressive as their PU.

Yeah if it carries on like this it won't be too long before we can close the thread.

Then we can move on to the exciting Mercedes versus Mercedes versus Ocon thread

Altair wrote:

pokerman wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

Zoue wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:At this stage, I think we have to acknowledge that Ferrari, overall, seem less competitive with Mercedes this year than they were in either 2017 or 2018. Ferrari have had one weekend (Bahrain) where they were clearly best of the best but Mercedes have clearly had the edge in 4 of the 5 rounds. I cannot explain Ferrari's dominance in Bahrain. You'd think that would suggest that they would have the edge at power tracks but that hasn't really manifested itself anywhere else. Maybe we'll see some more races where Ferrari will have the edge. Places like Monza and Mexico might still suit them but I think that, thus far at least, Mercedes have clearly been the best car overall. Barcelona kind of cements it for me. Ferrari brought a massive swath of upgrades but they were still quite far behind. Mercedes are just faster IMO as well as being more reliable.

Only thing that springs to mind is temperatures.

Maybe but I doubt it. Even the theory that Ferrari have to run with their engines tuned down due to reliability concerns doesn't hold much weight anymore because that wouldn't hamper them in qualifying presumably (I'd imagine that a single lap at full beans wouldn't be the threshold for inducing failure). I think Ferrari just had a lot of people fooled this year and perhaps their overall package just isn't nearly as impressive as their PU.

Yeah if it carries on like this it won't be too long before we can close the thread.

Then we can move on to the exciting Mercedes versus Mercedes versus Ocon thread

Well rather that than the incessant moaning.

so is it the ferrari front wing concept that is the problem? from what ive read it doesnt generate the same downforce as the merc (but with other advantages obviously) and maybe they have picked the wrong route to go down. if you cant get enough downforce from your front wing, there is only a certain amount you can compensate for with the rest of the car. at some point your gonna need more front end.

Caserole of Nonsense wrote:so is it the ferrari front wing concept that is the problem? from what ive read it doesnt generate the same downforce as the merc (but with other advantages obviously) and maybe they have picked the wrong route to go down. if you cant get enough downforce from your front wing, there is only a certain amount you can compensate for with the rest of the car. at some point your gonna need more front end.

That's what the secret aerodynamicist speculated might be the case in March.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/formula ... ssion=true

BMWSauber84 wrote:

Caserole of Nonsense wrote:so is it the ferrari front wing concept that is the problem? from what ive read it doesnt generate the same downforce as the merc (but with other advantages obviously) and maybe they have picked the wrong route to go down. if you cant get enough downforce from your front wing, there is only a certain amount you can compensate for with the rest of the car. at some point your gonna need more front end.

That's what the secret aerodynamicist speculated might be the case in March.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/formula ... ssion=true

yeah its a good article. i think now we must move away from ferrari having potential and them just not quite getting it right so far, to ferrari having fundamental problems with the car. whether its directly related to the front wing or not. sector 3 was abysmal.

Caserole of Nonsense wrote:

BMWSauber84 wrote:

Caserole of Nonsense wrote:so is it the ferrari front wing concept that is the problem? from what ive read it doesnt generate the same downforce as the merc (but with other advantages obviously) and maybe they have picked the wrong route to go down. if you cant get enough downforce from your front wing, there is only a certain amount you can compensate for with the rest of the car. at some point your gonna need more front end.

That's what the secret aerodynamicist speculated might be the case in March.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/formula ... ssion=true

yeah its a good article. i think now we must move away from ferrari having potential and them just not quite getting it right so far, to ferrari having fundamental problems with the car. whether its directly related to the front wing or not. sector 3 was abysmal.

I think it was more a case of the Mercedes being superb in S3 than it was Ferrari being poor. The only other cars better than them were the Red Bulls, but there again the Ferraris more than made up that deficit in S1

Zoue wrote:

Caserole of Nonsense wrote:

BMWSauber84 wrote:

Caserole of Nonsense wrote:so is it the ferrari front wing concept that is the problem? from what ive read it doesnt generate the same downforce as the merc (but with other advantages obviously) and maybe they have picked the wrong route to go down. if you cant get enough downforce from your front wing, there is only a certain amount you can compensate for with the rest of the car. at some point your gonna need more front end.

That's what the secret aerodynamicist speculated might be the case in March.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/formula ... ssion=true

yeah its a good article. i think now we must move away from ferrari having potential and them just not quite getting it right so far, to ferrari having fundamental problems with the car. whether its directly related to the front wing or not. sector 3 was abysmal.

I think it was more a case of the Mercedes being superb in S3 than it was Ferrari being poor. The only other cars better than them were the Red Bulls, but there again the Ferraris more than made up that deficit in S1

it was abysmal in the context of the last 2 seasons where ferrari and merc have been pretty evenly matched and now they have produced a car which looked like being the one in testing, but has fallen away further from merc. im not comparing sector 3 with anyone other then merc because they are the benchmark that ferrari aim for and have been close to in recent seasons.

Interesting article on Racefans today. I was originally going to write it off as sensationalism as the article doesn't even mention the "concept" until the very last line, but then I started thinking that for Binotto to mention it, even as a throwaway line, does suggest that they are contemplating that they may have taken a wrong direction overall. Starting to look like it will take more than tweaking things for them to get to the front

https://www.racefans.net/2019/05/13/fer ... vy-defeat/

Has Ferrari adopted the short wheel base and high rake similar to Red Bull? This could be one of the avenues that isn't working out for them.

Mercs car has the lowest of all rake as well as the long wheel base and that is part of their design philosophy. I remember at the last test they tried a high rake, dont think they said anything else about whether it performed well for them or not?