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sandman1347 wrote:

Mort Canard wrote:Before you folks shuffle Seb of to another career, just remember that Kimi spent five years at Ferrari as number two to Sebastian after he had won his one championship. During those five years, 2014-2018, Kimi won exactly one race. (US GP in 2018)

Kimi is a different guy. I think Kimi was able to swallow his pride (or perhaps he is just generally more humble to begin with) and didn't seem too bothered by the number 2 role at Ferrari. I don't think Vettel is, at all, of the same mindset. In other words, I don't think Vettel will want to stay if he is behind Charles.

I also don't think Vettel will accept that level of pay cut that Kimi did. Kimi's salary was cut from $40 million to $7 million while at Ferrari. That's a massive pay cut and Vettel will not accept that. Ferrari will not be willing to pay Vettel the way he's being paid now if his teammate actually gets the better of him. For Vettel, if he cannot remain their #1, I don't see how he can remain a Ferrari driver. Not when it's likely that either Hamilton or Verstappen will also be available.

Yeah, Seb might retire or move on, but I don't see Ferrari trying to move him out in the near future. ...at least not directly. If Seb ends up being outqualified on a semi regular basis, then Binoto will start to favor him and Seb will be in a weak place when it comes time to renegotiate his contract.

Seb might end up hanging on and limping along like Fernando ended up doing. Will have to see.

I’m trying to make sense of Leclerc’s ultimate speed relative to the rest of the grid.

Last season he battered Ericsson on pure pace, something that competent drivers like Nasr and Wehrlein did not do. Then again, it’s only Ericsson.

This year he’s been up against a proper benchmark, and he’s outqualified Vettel 8 times in a row. Adjusted for reliability in Austria and Germany, that’s still 6 times in a row. That is mighty impressive.

My intuition tells me that he’s very close to Hamilton and Verstappen. Obviously it’s all guesswork, but that’s why I think.

KingVoid wrote:I’m trying to make sense of Leclerc’s ultimate speed relative to the rest of the grid.

Last season he battered Ericsson on pure pace, something that competent drivers like Nasr and Wehrlein did not do. Then again, it’s only Ericsson.

This year he’s been up against a proper benchmark, and he’s outqualified Vettel 8 times in a row. Adjusted for reliability in Austria and Germany, that’s still 6 times in a row. That is mighty impressive.

My intuition tells me that he’s very close to Hamilton and Verstappen. Obviously it’s all guesswork, but that’s why I think.

My gut feeling is that he's a little bit faster than Ricciardo right now, and not quite as fast as Max or Lewis. But most importantly, he's visibly getting better and better throughout the season. He may be the same age as Max, but I think we need to keep in mind that a) he's still 21, which is still quite young and b) this is his second season. He's not done finding his ultimate level yet, whereas Hamilton definitely is and Max probably is.

Exediron wrote:

KingVoid wrote:I’m trying to make sense of Leclerc’s ultimate speed relative to the rest of the grid.

Last season he battered Ericsson on pure pace, something that competent drivers like Nasr and Wehrlein did not do. Then again, it’s only Ericsson.

This year he’s been up against a proper benchmark, and he’s outqualified Vettel 8 times in a row. Adjusted for reliability in Austria and Germany, that’s still 6 times in a row. That is mighty impressive.

My intuition tells me that he’s very close to Hamilton and Verstappen. Obviously it’s all guesswork, but that’s why I think.

My gut feeling is that he's a little bit faster than Ricciardo right now, and not quite as fast as Max or Lewis. But most importantly, he's visibly getting better and better throughout the season. He may be the same age as Max, but I think we need to keep in mind that a) he's still 21, which is still quite young and b) this is his second season. He's not done finding his ultimate level yet, whereas Hamilton definitely is and Max probably is.

I wouldn't look to disagree with you it's close to how I feel.

So, apparently Leclerc dumped his now former girlfriend, Giadi Gianni, to dedicate his life, body and soul to Ferrari, as reported by the highly reputable and much venerated Daily Express, Sun, and Daily Star.

Invade wrote:So, apparently Leclerc dumped his now former girlfriend, Giadi Gianni, to dedicate his life, body and soul to Ferrari, as reported by the highly reputable and much venerated Daily Express, Sun, and Daily Star.

I think Charles is now realizing how close he is to the title. He can beat Vettel and Ferrari can produce the fastest car. Having seen and experienced what it is to be able to rip off 4 straight poles; he will be VERY serious about winning the title next year.

I think Charles's first 2 years in F1 have gone very well so far. Sure there have been some mistakes here and there but every driver has those in their first couple of years. What we've seen is that he destroyed the pay-driver-level performer in Ericsson and he has quickly taken the upper-hand against the 4-time WDC in his first year with Ferrari. His outright pace is undeniable. The kid is super-quick. On Saturdays he's up there with the best of them already and that's very impressive because he is in F1 at a time when there are a ton of guys who are very quick over a single lap. During the races it has been a bit more hit and miss. His race pace is generally quite strong but there have been a few rounds where he has lagged behind Seb in race pace noticeably. I'm tempted to chalk that up to experience but let's keep an eye on it. He has also been on (and perhaps over) the limit in his defending both at Silverstone and again at Monza. That's something to keep an eye on as well.

As I already mentioned; he has also made quite a few significant errors both in qualifying and the races. He is not the finished product at all yet and that's the scary part about Charles. It's very easy to compare him to Max because they are the same age and will probably be rivals for the next decade but as others have mentioned, Charles is only scratching the surface of what he will eventually become wheres Max is much further along in his development at this level.

Mort Canard wrote: Yeah, Seb might retire or move on, but I don't see Ferrari trying to move him out in the near future. ...at least not directly. If Seb ends up being outqualified on a semi regular basis, then Binoto will start to favor him and Seb will be in a weak place when it comes time to renegotiate his contract.

Seb might end up hanging on and limping along like Fernando ended up doing. Will have to see.

the biggest difference was that Fernando was not losing to his teammates then. He was upset with the car not being able to win the wdc

sandman1347 wrote:
He has also been on (and perhaps over) the limit in his defending both at Silverstone and again at Monza. That's something to keep an eye on as well.

As I already mentioned; he has also made quite a few significant errors both in qualifying and the races. He is not the finished product at all yet and that's the scary part about Charles. It's very easy to compare him to Max because they are the same age and will probably be rivals for the next decade but as others have mentioned, Charles is only scratching the surface of what he will eventually become wheres Max is much further along in his development at this level.

if he wasn't over the limit at Monza, he wouldn't have won.

Leclerc is only in year 2. Max has had 5 years. So there's still room to grow, more for Leclerc

Invade wrote:So, apparently Leclerc dumped his now former girlfriend, Giadi Gianni, to dedicate his life, body and soul to Ferrari, as reported by the highly reputable and much venerated Daily Express, Sun, and Daily Star.

imo, it's better to keep the girlfriend. Many drivers were champions, being married or in a relationship. Some even had children and won titles. A balance is always good and helps one destress too by confiding in each other and other ways. Hopefully, he gets another.

trento wrote:

Invade wrote:So, apparently Leclerc dumped his now former girlfriend, Giadi Gianni, to dedicate his life, body and soul to Ferrari, as reported by the highly reputable and much venerated Daily Express, Sun, and Daily Star.

imo, it's better to keep the girlfriend. Many drivers were champions, being married or in a relationship. Some even had children and won titles. A balance is always good and helps one destress too by confiding in each other and other ways. Hopefully, he gets another.

Lewis is single and has done ok-ish though!

Does anyone else think that Leclerc’s 2 victories are actually a very underwhelming return for his 2019 season?

Let’s review the season for a second:

Bahrain - dominated the whole weekend until that engine problem

Baku - appears to be fastest in Q until he crashed. Then again, Ferrari’s race pace was fairly mediocre.

Austria - lead the whole race until the final 2 laps. Max had more pace, but I do feel that a victory was definitely possible if Ferrari didn’t pit Leclerc so early. It would have minimized Max’s tyre advantage at the end of the race.

Germany - he appeared to be fastest in Q until his car failed. On race day he made his way from 10th to 2nd until he crashed. Anyone could have won on that chaotic day.

Singapore - leading until Vettel undercut him. Ferrari should have probably boxed him first.

Russia - in this mess of a race, Leclerc was the net leader until Vettel retired and caused a SC.

Mexico - there was absolutely no need for Ferrari to switch Leclerc to a 2 stopper when he was leading. It handed the win to Hamilton.

In a perfect season he wins 8 or 9 races. But then again, nobody is perfect. Still, IMO he should have won at least 5 races in 2019, especially considering his 7 pole positions.

KingVoid wrote:Does anyone else think that Leclerc’s 2 victories are actually a very underwhelming return for his 2019 season?

Let’s review the season for a second:

Bahrain - dominated the whole weekend until that engine problem

Baku - appears to be fastest in Q until he crashed. Then again, Ferrari’s race pace was fairly mediocre.

Austria - lead the whole race until the final 2 laps. Max had more pace, but I do feel that a victory was definitely possible if Ferrari didn’t pit Leclerc so early. It would have minimized Max’s tyre advantage at the end of the race.

Germany - he appeared to be fastest in Q until his car failed. On race day he made his way from 10th to 2nd until he crashed. Anyone could have won on that chaotic day.

Singapore - leading until Vettel undercut him. Ferrari should have probably boxed him first.

Russia - in this mess of a race, Leclerc was the net leader until Vettel retired and caused a SC.

Mexico - there was absolutely no need for Ferrari to switch Leclerc to a 2 stopper when he was leading. It handed the win to Hamilton.

In a perfect season he wins 8 or 9 races. But then again, nobody is perfect. Still, IMO he should have won at least 5 races in 2019, especially considering his 7 pole positions.

Yes an odd season. It seemed that every race where a good result was on if the team didn't mess up then the driver would.

KingVoid wrote:Does anyone else think that Leclerc’s 2 victories are actually a very underwhelming return for his 2019 season?

Let’s review the season for a second:

Bahrain - dominated the whole weekend until that engine problem

Baku - appears to be fastest in Q until he crashed. Then again, Ferrari’s race pace was fairly mediocre.

Austria - lead the whole race until the final 2 laps. Max had more pace, but I do feel that a victory was definitely possible if Ferrari didn’t pit Leclerc so early. It would have minimized Max’s tyre advantage at the end of the race.

Germany - he appeared to be fastest in Q until his car failed. On race day he made his way from 10th to 2nd until he crashed. Anyone could have won on that chaotic day.

Singapore - leading until Vettel undercut him. Ferrari should have probably boxed him first.

Russia - in this mess of a race, Leclerc was the net leader until Vettel retired and caused a SC.

Mexico - there was absolutely no need for Ferrari to switch Leclerc to a 2 stopper when he was leading. It handed the win to Hamilton.

In a perfect season he wins 8 or 9 races. But then again, nobody is perfect. Still, IMO he should have won at least 5 races in 2019, especially considering his 7 pole positions.

I mooted on another thread that Hamilton could have won as many as 9 races in the Ferrari, I would say that both Ferrari drivers underperformed, but in respect to Leclerc I expect him to improve this season.

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:Does anyone else think that Leclerc’s 2 victories are actually a very underwhelming return for his 2019 season?

Let’s review the season for a second:

Bahrain - dominated the whole weekend until that engine problem

Baku - appears to be fastest in Q until he crashed. Then again, Ferrari’s race pace was fairly mediocre.

Austria - lead the whole race until the final 2 laps. Max had more pace, but I do feel that a victory was definitely possible if Ferrari didn’t pit Leclerc so early. It would have minimized Max’s tyre advantage at the end of the race.

Germany - he appeared to be fastest in Q until his car failed. On race day he made his way from 10th to 2nd until he crashed. Anyone could have won on that chaotic day.

Singapore - leading until Vettel undercut him. Ferrari should have probably boxed him first.

Russia - in this mess of a race, Leclerc was the net leader until Vettel retired and caused a SC.

Mexico - there was absolutely no need for Ferrari to switch Leclerc to a 2 stopper when he was leading. It handed the win to Hamilton.

In a perfect season he wins 8 or 9 races. But then again, nobody is perfect. Still, IMO he should have won at least 5 races in 2019, especially considering his 7 pole positions.

I mooted on another thread that Hamilton could have won as many as 9 races in the Ferrari, I would say that both Ferrari drivers underperformed, but in respect to Leclerc I expect him to improve this season.

That seems to me the biggest difference between Seb and Charles for 2020. Charles has plenty of room for improvement and refining his craft. The only avenue for improvement for Seb is to find a way to limit his screw-ups.

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:Does anyone else think that Leclerc’s 2 victories are actually a very underwhelming return for his 2019 season?

Let’s review the season for a second:

Bahrain - dominated the whole weekend until that engine problem

Baku - appears to be fastest in Q until he crashed. Then again, Ferrari’s race pace was fairly mediocre.

Austria - lead the whole race until the final 2 laps. Max had more pace, but I do feel that a victory was definitely possible if Ferrari didn’t pit Leclerc so early. It would have minimized Max’s tyre advantage at the end of the race.

Germany - he appeared to be fastest in Q until his car failed. On race day he made his way from 10th to 2nd until he crashed. Anyone could have won on that chaotic day.

Singapore - leading until Vettel undercut him. Ferrari should have probably boxed him first.

Russia - in this mess of a race, Leclerc was the net leader until Vettel retired and caused a SC.

Mexico - there was absolutely no need for Ferrari to switch Leclerc to a 2 stopper when he was leading. It handed the win to Hamilton.

In a perfect season he wins 8 or 9 races. But then again, nobody is perfect. Still, IMO he should have won at least 5 races in 2019, especially considering his 7 pole positions.

I mooted on another thread that Hamilton could have won as many as 9 races in the Ferrari, I would say that both Ferrari drivers underperformed, but in respect to Leclerc I expect him to improve this season.

Yeah, but I would argue that most of the potential lost wins I listed above weren’t even in Leclerc’s hands.

Bahrain, Singapore, Russia and Mexico was a result of Ferrari’s dumb strategies and mechanical problems.

Austria was arguably strategy too.

Germany was a combination of Ferrari (Saturday) and Leclerc (Sunday). Then again in his defence, a lot of drivers crashed at that corner, including Hamilton.

Only in Baku was Leclerc fully to blame.

KingVoid wrote:

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:Does anyone else think that Leclerc’s 2 victories are actually a very underwhelming return for his 2019 season?

Let’s review the season for a second:

Bahrain - dominated the whole weekend until that engine problem

Baku - appears to be fastest in Q until he crashed. Then again, Ferrari’s race pace was fairly mediocre.

Austria - lead the whole race until the final 2 laps. Max had more pace, but I do feel that a victory was definitely possible if Ferrari didn’t pit Leclerc so early. It would have minimized Max’s tyre advantage at the end of the race.

Germany - he appeared to be fastest in Q until his car failed. On race day he made his way from 10th to 2nd until he crashed. Anyone could have won on that chaotic day.

Singapore - leading until Vettel undercut him. Ferrari should have probably boxed him first.

Russia - in this mess of a race, Leclerc was the net leader until Vettel retired and caused a SC.

Mexico - there was absolutely no need for Ferrari to switch Leclerc to a 2 stopper when he was leading. It handed the win to Hamilton.

In a perfect season he wins 8 or 9 races. But then again, nobody is perfect. Still, IMO he should have won at least 5 races in 2019, especially considering his 7 pole positions.

I mooted on another thread that Hamilton could have won as many as 9 races in the Ferrari, I would say that both Ferrari drivers underperformed, but in respect to Leclerc I expect him to improve this season.

Yeah, but I would argue that most of the potential lost wins I listed above weren’t even in Leclerc’s hands.

Bahrain, Singapore, Russia and Mexico was a result of Ferrari’s dumb strategies and mechanical problems.

Austria was arguably strategy too.

Germany was a combination of Ferrari (Saturday) and Leclerc (Sunday). Then again in his defence, a lot of drivers crashed at that corner, including Hamilton.

Only in Baku was Leclerc fully to blame.

Vettel may have ignored team orders in Russia (which i think were pointless anyway), but to me he proved he was faster and pulled away from Leclerc. Then Ferrari looked to deliberately do with Vettel what they have previously done with Leclerc (similar to Singapore) Pit him too early to result in the strategy working out better for Leclerc. Vettel would have retired anyway but in my opinion, this was a win Vettel deserved over Lelclerc. He almost certainly will have managed it if they pitted him at the right time and he had no issues.

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

KingVoid wrote:

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:Does anyone else think that Leclerc’s 2 victories are actually a very underwhelming return for his 2019 season?

Let’s review the season for a second:

Bahrain - dominated the whole weekend until that engine problem

Baku - appears to be fastest in Q until he crashed. Then again, Ferrari’s race pace was fairly mediocre.

Austria - lead the whole race until the final 2 laps. Max had more pace, but I do feel that a victory was definitely possible if Ferrari didn’t pit Leclerc so early. It would have minimized Max’s tyre advantage at the end of the race.

Germany - he appeared to be fastest in Q until his car failed. On race day he made his way from 10th to 2nd until he crashed. Anyone could have won on that chaotic day.

Singapore - leading until Vettel undercut him. Ferrari should have probably boxed him first.

Russia - in this mess of a race, Leclerc was the net leader until Vettel retired and caused a SC.

Mexico - there was absolutely no need for Ferrari to switch Leclerc to a 2 stopper when he was leading. It handed the win to Hamilton.

In a perfect season he wins 8 or 9 races. But then again, nobody is perfect. Still, IMO he should have won at least 5 races in 2019, especially considering his 7 pole positions.

I mooted on another thread that Hamilton could have won as many as 9 races in the Ferrari, I would say that both Ferrari drivers underperformed, but in respect to Leclerc I expect him to improve this season.

Yeah, but I would argue that most of the potential lost wins I listed above weren’t even in Leclerc’s hands.

Bahrain, Singapore, Russia and Mexico was a result of Ferrari’s dumb strategies and mechanical problems.

Austria was arguably strategy too.

Germany was a combination of Ferrari (Saturday) and Leclerc (Sunday). Then again in his defence, a lot of drivers crashed at that corner, including Hamilton.

Only in Baku was Leclerc fully to blame.

Vettel may have ignored team orders in Russia (which i think were pointless anyway), but to me he proved he was faster and pulled away from Leclerc. Then Ferrari looked to deliberately do with Vettel what they have previously done with Leclerc (similar to Singapore) Pit him too early to result in the strategy working out better for Leclerc. Vettel would have retired anyway but in my opinion, this was a win Vettel deserved over Lelclerc. He almost certainly will have managed it if they pitted him at the right time and he had no issues.

Nah it's not that simple. Leclerc didn't race Vettel into turn 1 as they had an agreement. Hard to know what would happen without that.

mikeyg123 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

KingVoid wrote:

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:Does anyone else think that Leclerc’s 2 victories are actually a very underwhelming return for his 2019 season?

Let’s review the season for a second:

Bahrain - dominated the whole weekend until that engine problem

Baku - appears to be fastest in Q until he crashed. Then again, Ferrari’s race pace was fairly mediocre.

Austria - lead the whole race until the final 2 laps. Max had more pace, but I do feel that a victory was definitely possible if Ferrari didn’t pit Leclerc so early. It would have minimized Max’s tyre advantage at the end of the race.

Germany - he appeared to be fastest in Q until his car failed. On race day he made his way from 10th to 2nd until he crashed. Anyone could have won on that chaotic day.

Singapore - leading until Vettel undercut him. Ferrari should have probably boxed him first.

Russia - in this mess of a race, Leclerc was the net leader until Vettel retired and caused a SC.

Mexico - there was absolutely no need for Ferrari to switch Leclerc to a 2 stopper when he was leading. It handed the win to Hamilton.

In a perfect season he wins 8 or 9 races. But then again, nobody is perfect. Still, IMO he should have won at least 5 races in 2019, especially considering his 7 pole positions.

I mooted on another thread that Hamilton could have won as many as 9 races in the Ferrari, I would say that both Ferrari drivers underperformed, but in respect to Leclerc I expect him to improve this season.

Yeah, but I would argue that most of the potential lost wins I listed above weren’t even in Leclerc’s hands.

Bahrain, Singapore, Russia and Mexico was a result of Ferrari’s dumb strategies and mechanical problems.

Austria was arguably strategy too.

Germany was a combination of Ferrari (Saturday) and Leclerc (Sunday). Then again in his defence, a lot of drivers crashed at that corner, including Hamilton.

Only in Baku was Leclerc fully to blame.

Vettel may have ignored team orders in Russia (which i think were pointless anyway), but to me he proved he was faster and pulled away from Leclerc. Then Ferrari looked to deliberately do with Vettel what they have previously done with Leclerc (similar to Singapore) Pit him too early to result in the strategy working out better for Leclerc. Vettel would have retired anyway but in my opinion, this was a win Vettel deserved over Lelclerc. He almost certainly will have managed it if they pitted him at the right time and he had no issues.

Nah it's not that simple. Leclerc didn't race Vettel into turn 1 as they had an agreement. Hard to know what would happen without that.

I don't think Leclerc would have made it much harder. Bottas pretty easily got past both Ferrari's of him in 2017 with no help from them. I think Vettel will have made it anyway.

Even without that, if Vettel had a tow, why wouldn't he use it to his advantage? Otherwise there will have been a bigger chance of there being hamilton between the two. In the end, Vettel got by Leclerc and there was quite a big gap between Leclerc and Hamilton. Vettel got by and extended the gap. Even though I know Vettel didn't follow the team orders, I don't see how what vettel did made anything worse for the team. He took his opportunity and it was still 1 - 2. And he wasn't holding Leclerc up. Hamilton will have been right on Vettel if Vettel didn't pass Leclerc.

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

KingVoid wrote:

pokerman wrote: I mooted on another thread that Hamilton could have won as many as 9 races in the Ferrari, I would say that both Ferrari drivers underperformed, but in respect to Leclerc I expect him to improve this season.

Yeah, but I would argue that most of the potential lost wins I listed above weren’t even in Leclerc’s hands.

Bahrain, Singapore, Russia and Mexico was a result of Ferrari’s dumb strategies and mechanical problems.

Austria was arguably strategy too.

Germany was a combination of Ferrari (Saturday) and Leclerc (Sunday). Then again in his defence, a lot of drivers crashed at that corner, including Hamilton.

Only in Baku was Leclerc fully to blame.

Vettel may have ignored team orders in Russia (which i think were pointless anyway), but to me he proved he was faster and pulled away from Leclerc. Then Ferrari looked to deliberately do with Vettel what they have previously done with Leclerc (similar to Singapore) Pit him too early to result in the strategy working out better for Leclerc. Vettel would have retired anyway but in my opinion, this was a win Vettel deserved over Lelclerc. He almost certainly will have managed it if they pitted him at the right time and he had no issues.

Nah it's not that simple. Leclerc didn't race Vettel into turn 1 as they had an agreement. Hard to know what would happen without that.

I don't think Leclerc would have made it much harder. Bottas pretty easily got past both Ferrari's of him in 2017 with no help from them. I think Vettel will have made it anyway.

Even without that, if Vettel had a tow, why wouldn't he use it to his advantage? Otherwise there will have been a bigger chance of there being hamilton between the two. In the end, Vettel got by Leclerc and there was quite a big gap between Leclerc and Hamilton. Vettel got by and extended the gap. Even though I know Vettel didn't follow the team orders, I don't see how what vettel did made anything worse for the team. He took his opportunity and it was still 1 - 2. And he wasn't holding Leclerc up. Hamilton will have been right on Vettel if Vettel didn't pass Leclerc.

How big a gap did Vettel pull? Wasn't it like 2 seconds?

KingVoid wrote:

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:Does anyone else think that Leclerc’s 2 victories are actually a very underwhelming return for his 2019 season?

Let’s review the season for a second:

Bahrain - dominated the whole weekend until that engine problem

Baku - appears to be fastest in Q until he crashed. Then again, Ferrari’s race pace was fairly mediocre.

Austria - lead the whole race until the final 2 laps. Max had more pace, but I do feel that a victory was definitely possible if Ferrari didn’t pit Leclerc so early. It would have minimized Max’s tyre advantage at the end of the race.

Germany - he appeared to be fastest in Q until his car failed. On race day he made his way from 10th to 2nd until he crashed. Anyone could have won on that chaotic day.

Singapore - leading until Vettel undercut him. Ferrari should have probably boxed him first.

Russia - in this mess of a race, Leclerc was the net leader until Vettel retired and caused a SC.

Mexico - there was absolutely no need for Ferrari to switch Leclerc to a 2 stopper when he was leading. It handed the win to Hamilton.

In a perfect season he wins 8 or 9 races. But then again, nobody is perfect. Still, IMO he should have won at least 5 races in 2019, especially considering his 7 pole positions.

I mooted on another thread that Hamilton could have won as many as 9 races in the Ferrari, I would say that both Ferrari drivers underperformed, but in respect to Leclerc I expect him to improve this season.

Yeah, but I would argue that most of the potential lost wins I listed above weren’t even in Leclerc’s hands.

Bahrain, Singapore, Russia and Mexico was a result of Ferrari’s dumb strategies and mechanical problems.

Austria was arguably strategy too.

Germany was a combination of Ferrari (Saturday) and Leclerc (Sunday). Then again in his defence, a lot of drivers crashed at that corner, including Hamilton.

Only in Baku was Leclerc fully to blame.

The lost wins I was viewing as what both Leclerc and Vettel could have achieved.

mikeyg123 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

KingVoid wrote: Yeah, but I would argue that most of the potential lost wins I listed above weren’t even in Leclerc’s hands.

Bahrain, Singapore, Russia and Mexico was a result of Ferrari’s dumb strategies and mechanical problems.

Austria was arguably strategy too.

Germany was a combination of Ferrari (Saturday) and Leclerc (Sunday). Then again in his defence, a lot of drivers crashed at that corner, including Hamilton.

Only in Baku was Leclerc fully to blame.

Vettel may have ignored team orders in Russia (which i think were pointless anyway), but to me he proved he was faster and pulled away from Leclerc. Then Ferrari looked to deliberately do with Vettel what they have previously done with Leclerc (similar to Singapore) Pit him too early to result in the strategy working out better for Leclerc. Vettel would have retired anyway but in my opinion, this was a win Vettel deserved over Lelclerc. He almost certainly will have managed it if they pitted him at the right time and he had no issues.

Nah it's not that simple. Leclerc didn't race Vettel into turn 1 as they had an agreement. Hard to know what would happen without that.

I don't think Leclerc would have made it much harder. Bottas pretty easily got past both Ferrari's of him in 2017 with no help from them. I think Vettel will have made it anyway.

Even without that, if Vettel had a tow, why wouldn't he use it to his advantage? Otherwise there will have been a bigger chance of there being hamilton between the two. In the end, Vettel got by Leclerc and there was quite a big gap between Leclerc and Hamilton. Vettel got by and extended the gap. Even though I know Vettel didn't follow the team orders, I don't see how what vettel did made anything worse for the team. He took his opportunity and it was still 1 - 2. And he wasn't holding Leclerc up. Hamilton will have been right on Vettel if Vettel didn't pass Leclerc.

How big a gap did Vettel pull? Wasn't it like 2 seconds?

Soon got to 2, kept slowly increasing up to 4 and a half seconds. I think that quite clearly showed vettel had the edge.

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Vettel may have ignored team orders in Russia (which i think were pointless anyway), but to me he proved he was faster and pulled away from Leclerc. Then Ferrari looked to deliberately do with Vettel what they have previously done with Leclerc (similar to Singapore) Pit him too early to result in the strategy working out better for Leclerc. Vettel would have retired anyway but in my opinion, this was a win Vettel deserved over Lelclerc. He almost certainly will have managed it if they pitted him at the right time and he had no issues.

Nah it's not that simple. Leclerc didn't race Vettel into turn 1 as they had an agreement. Hard to know what would happen without that.

I don't think Leclerc would have made it much harder. Bottas pretty easily got past both Ferrari's of him in 2017 with no help from them. I think Vettel will have made it anyway.

Even without that, if Vettel had a tow, why wouldn't he use it to his advantage? Otherwise there will have been a bigger chance of there being hamilton between the two. In the end, Vettel got by Leclerc and there was quite a big gap between Leclerc and Hamilton. Vettel got by and extended the gap. Even though I know Vettel didn't follow the team orders, I don't see how what vettel did made anything worse for the team. He took his opportunity and it was still 1 - 2. And he wasn't holding Leclerc up. Hamilton will have been right on Vettel if Vettel didn't pass Leclerc.

How big a gap did Vettel pull? Wasn't it like 2 seconds?

Soon got to 2, kept slowly increasing up to 4 and a half seconds. I think that quite clearly showed vettel had the edge.

Not enough of one to get passed Leclerc if he hadn't passed in turn 1.

Charles Leclerc is upping his TWITCH game with a new swaggy intro.

https://www.twitch.tv/charlesleclerc/cl ... sinDBstyle

Invade wrote:Charles Leclerc is upping his TWITCH game with a new swaggy intro.

https://www.twitch.tv/charlesleclerc/cl ... sinDBstyle

Leclerc's intro is lit. I find it kind of hilarious how naturally he's taken to being a big time Twitch streamer!

Exediron wrote: ↑

Mon May 25, 2020 12:58 am

Invade wrote:Charles Leclerc is upping his TWITCH game with a new swaggy intro.

https://www.twitch.tv/charlesleclerc/cl ... sinDBstyle

Leclerc's intro is lit. I find it kind of hilarious how naturally he's taken to being a big time Twitch streamer!

Now he's turning in a huge time F1 driver. He's still up and down but two of the weekends he's produced this season so far have been pretty much worthy of max scores.

Is Charles on his way to utterly destroying Seb?

How good might Mr.Leclerc actually be, supposing he crushes Vettel this season?

I think Leclerc is doing a good job to solidify himself in the 'Big Three' of F1 along with Max and Lewis this year. His drives to the podium in a clearly unworthy car in Austria and now Great Britain have been Alonso-esque.

(there is still that boneheaded crash against his teammate earlier in the season, though...)

Leclerc has drove two excellent races but to say he is utterly destroying Seb might be a touch much at this point. Vettel was better all weekend in Hungary and qualified ahead in Styria before Leclerc's braindead move on the opening lap.

I'm not into giving credit for drivers getting the advantage of SC's but last time out fair play to Leclerc that was a great podium and weekend last time out.

Two podiums in a midfield car in just four races is mighty impressive. Both Leclerc at Verstappen are really showing what a difference a top line driver can make.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:21 pm

Two podiums in a midfield car in just four races is mighty impressive. Both Leclerc at Verstappen are really showing what a difference a top line driver can make.

Norris finished on the podium as well, it seems that every car that's not a Mercedes car is being classed as a midfield car, that makes at least one midfield podium for every race.

pokerman wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:30 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:21 pm

Two podiums in a midfield car in just four races is mighty impressive. Both Leclerc at Verstappen are really showing what a difference a top line driver can make.

Norris finished on the podium as well, it seems that every car that's not a Mercedes car is being classed as a midfield car, that makes at least one midfield podium for every race.

Norris had one podium, behind Leclerc and in a better car.

I agree there is a blur over what is a midfield car this year but Ferrari definitely is one.

The midfield doesn't have quite the same meaning as it usually does this year, because there's only a single car (Mercedes) fighting for wins, then one more that seems to have a little advantage over the rest (Red Bull), then a giant tangle of cars that are all pretty much in the same category (Ferrari, Racing Point, McLaren, Renault, maybe Alpha Tauri).

My impression is that the Ferrari is significantly slower than the Red Bull, but not significantly quicker than the McLarens or Racing Points. I think that puts it pretty solidly in the midfield, with an expected result of P5-P10 every race. To get a podium, a Ferrari needs to beat a faster car.

Addendum: Red Bull

I realize an argument could (and likely will) be made that the Red Bull is actually a midfield car as well, and Max is simply making it look like there's a gap. I disagree, but it's hard to prove. I don't believe that Max is enough quicker than Leclerc to make it look like there's a significant and consistent advantage in favor of the Red Bull. As well, Albon has managed to overtake and beat the Ferraris on a number of occasions, and I don't think anyone would consider him to be a superior driver to Vettel or Leclerc.

Exediron wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:45 pm

Addendum: Red Bull

I realize an argument could (and likely will) be made that the Red Bull is actually a midfield car as well, and Max is simply making it look like there's a gap. I disagree, but it's hard to prove. I don't believe that Max is enough quicker than Leclerc to make it look like there's a significant and consistent advantage in favor of the Red Bull. As well, Albon has managed to overtake and beat the Ferraris on a number of occasions, and I don't think anyone would consider him to be a superior driver to Vettel or Leclerc.

I'd say the Red Bull is a midfield car, or that it's not alone in its bracket and so it's in a "field" — that if Verstappen or Leclerc were in the Racing Point that they would look as strong as Red Bull over these first four races at least.

Ferrari are clearly slower than Red Bull and in the next bracket which I suppose is the real midfield. Leclerc is basically doing a similar thing as Max but in a worse car. Stick Leclerc in the Racing Point and I believe he could fight with Verstappen.


Merc

RBR, Racing Point

McLaren, Ferrari, Renault... in whatever order

AT, Haas

AR, Williams

Not sure of the rankings at the lower end.


Sadly for Leclerc, I doubt he'll score a win either this season or next. Maybe one. He's in a car which will probably end up no worse than what, say, Hamilton had in some seasons where he managed to eke out a win or two or a few, but the problem is the utter dominance of the Merc package.

Invade wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:59 pm

I'd say the Red Bull is a midfield car, or that it's not alone in its bracket and so it's in a "field" — that if Verstappen or Leclerc were in the Racing Point that they would look as strong as Red Bull over these first four races at least.

Ferrari are clearly slower than Red Bull and in the next bracket which I suppose is the real midfield. Leclerc is basically doing a similar thing as Max but in a worse car. Stick Leclerc in the Racing Point and I believe he could fight with Verstappen.

That's a fair possibility, I admit. The Racing Point is hard to place, since its pace seems wildly inconsistent even from session to session within the same weekend. While their one lap pace is formidable and probably up there with the Red Bull, their race pace hasn't really looked midfield-breaking yet.

(although, as with everything in F1, the question remains how much of that is down to the drivers and how much to the car)

Exediron wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:27 am

Invade wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:59 pm

I'd say the Red Bull is a midfield car, or that it's not alone in its bracket and so it's in a "field" — that if Verstappen or Leclerc were in the Racing Point that they would look as strong as Red Bull over these first four races at least.

Ferrari are clearly slower than Red Bull and in the next bracket which I suppose is the real midfield. Leclerc is basically doing a similar thing as Max but in a worse car. Stick Leclerc in the Racing Point and I believe he could fight with Verstappen.

That's a fair possibility, I admit. The Racing Point is hard to place, since its pace seems wildly inconsistent even from session to session within the same weekend. While their one lap pace is formidable and probably up there with the Red Bull, their race pace hasn't really looked midfield-breaking yet.

(although, as with everything in F1, the question remains how much of that is down to the drivers and how much to the car)

Perez speed in the Styrian GP looked superiour to everything except of Mercedes.
But they don't have a consistent top driver, unfortunately.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:09 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:30 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:21 pm

Two podiums in a midfield car in just four races is mighty impressive. Both Leclerc at Verstappen are really showing what a difference a top line driver can make.

Norris finished on the podium as well, it seems that every car that's not a Mercedes car is being classed as a midfield car, that makes at least one midfield podium for every race.

Norris had one podium, behind Leclerc and in a better car.

I agree there is a blur over what is a midfield car this year but Ferrari definitely is one.

So is the McLaren then, given the criteria there's going to be a lot more midfield cars getting podiums this year.

Exediron wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:45 pm

The midfield doesn't have quite the same meaning as it usually does this year, because there's only a single car (Mercedes) fighting for wins, then one more that seems to have a little advantage over the rest (Red Bull), then a giant tangle of cars that are all pretty much in the same category (Ferrari, Racing Point, McLaren, Renault, maybe Alpha Tauri).

My impression is that the Ferrari is significantly slower than the Red Bull, but not significantly quicker than the McLarens or Racing Points. I think that puts it pretty solidly in the midfield, with an expected result of P5-P10 every race. To get a podium, a Ferrari needs to beat a faster car.

Addendum: Red Bull

I realize an argument could (and likely will) be made that the Red Bull is actually a midfield car as well, and Max is simply making it look like there's a gap. I disagree, but it's hard to prove. I don't believe that Max is enough quicker than Leclerc to make it look like there's a significant and consistent advantage in favor of the Red Bull. As well, Albon has managed to overtake and beat the Ferraris on a number of occasions, and I don't think anyone would consider him to be a superior driver to Vettel or Leclerc.

I think what clouds the performance of the Red Bull is it's poor qualifying relative to race pace, Leclerc was only 1 tenths slower in qualifying but close to a second slower in the race, this also clouds the performance of the Red Bull relative to the Mercedes if we really think Verstappen went into the race in a car 1 second slower than the Mercedes.

Invade wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:59 pm

Exediron wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:45 pm

Addendum: Red Bull

I realize an argument could (and likely will) be made that the Red Bull is actually a midfield car as well, and Max is simply making it look like there's a gap. I disagree, but it's hard to prove. I don't believe that Max is enough quicker than Leclerc to make it look like there's a significant and consistent advantage in favor of the Red Bull. As well, Albon has managed to overtake and beat the Ferraris on a number of occasions, and I don't think anyone would consider him to be a superior driver to Vettel or Leclerc.

I'd say the Red Bull is a midfield car, or that it's not alone in its bracket and so it's in a "field" — that if Verstappen or Leclerc were in the Racing Point that they would look as strong as Red Bull over these first four races at least.

Ferrari are clearly slower than Red Bull and in the next bracket which I suppose is the real midfield. Leclerc is basically doing a similar thing as Max but in a worse car. Stick Leclerc in the Racing Point and I believe he could fight with Verstappen.


Merc

RBR, Racing Point

McLaren, Ferrari, Renault... in whatever order

AT, Haas

AR, Williams

Not sure of the rankings at the lower end.


Sadly for Leclerc, I doubt he'll score a win either this season or next. Maybe one. He's in a car which will probably end up no worse than what, say, Hamilton had in some seasons where he managed to eke out a win or two or a few, but the problem is the utter dominance of the Merc package.

Ferrari will be able to improve their engine for next season, I would say that's their biggest weakness this year.

pokerman wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:05 pm

I think what clouds the performance of the Red Bull is it's poor qualifying relative to race pace, Leclerc was only 1 tenths slower in qualifying but close to a second slower in the race, this also clouds the performance of the Red Bull relative to the Mercedes if we really think Verstappen went into the race in a car 1 second slower than the Mercedes.

I would agree with that.

Also, keep in mind that Ferrari were trying what they openly admitted was a qualifying-weighted setup, which exaggerated the difference that was already there.

Exediron wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:12 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:05 pm

I think what clouds the performance of the Red Bull is it's poor qualifying relative to race pace, Leclerc was only 1 tenths slower in qualifying but close to a second slower in the race, this also clouds the performance of the Red Bull relative to the Mercedes if we really think Verstappen went into the race in a car 1 second slower than the Mercedes.

I would agree with that.

Also, keep in mind that Ferrari were trying what they openly admitted was a qualifying-weighted setup, which exaggerated the difference that was already there.

To an extent perhaps but not close to a full second, Leclerc didn't lose any places in the race.