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Alienturnedhuman wrote:Surprised to not see a thread on this, but it is the quiet season.

With Sauber gone, it's the final of the 90s medium sized privateer teams to disappear from the grid. Although with 26 seasons in the sport, that means they lasted twice as long as the Jordan name did.

Where exactly are they going? Apologies if I've missed something but I thought Sauber were still in F1.

sandman1347 wrote:

Alienturnedhuman wrote:Surprised to not see a thread on this, but it is the quiet season.

With Sauber gone, it's the final of the 90s medium sized privateer teams to disappear from the grid. Although with 26 seasons in the sport, that means they lasted twice as long as the Jordan name did.

Where exactly are they going? Apologies if I've missed something but I thought Sauber were still in F1.

The team is still there, but it has been re-branded as Alfa Romeo.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/47089294

A shame, they've turned one of F1's long-standing historical names into a soulless marketing exercise. To suggest that this team inherits any of the DNA of the successful Alfa Romeo team from the 50s is beyond laughable.

j man wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

Alienturnedhuman wrote:Surprised to not see a thread on this, but it is the quiet season.

With Sauber gone, it's the final of the 90s medium sized privateer teams to disappear from the grid. Although with 26 seasons in the sport, that means they lasted twice as long as the Jordan name did.

Where exactly are they going? Apologies if I've missed something but I thought Sauber were still in F1.

The team is still there, but it has been re-branded as Alfa Romeo.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/47089294

A shame, they've turned one of F1's long-standing historical names into a soulless marketing exercise. To suggest that this team inherits any of the DNA of the successful Alfa Romeo team from the 50s is beyond laughable.

Wow, that is kinda sad sin't it? The Sauber name has been associated with F1 for so long...

In a way this is sad news but if it means Sauber or Alfa Romeo stays on the grid for a few more years then it's a good thing. I wonder what this could mean for Hass though.

Alienturnedhuman wrote: In this sense you have to give credit to BMW. It was their actual factory team, but they kept Sauber in the name during their years of the partnership. This is purely a marketing exercise for Alfa Romeo, to be Ferrari's Toro Rossi, yet they are scrapping the Sauber legacy in the process.

I thought that at one point BMW tried to ditch the Sauber name though? But they left it too late and BMW Sauber was already registered.

I might just be getting confused with the 2010 season. The BMW name lived on there despite BMW's 2009 withdrawal. The team was rather confusingly "BMW Sauber Ferrari".

BMWSauber84 wrote:I thought that at one point BMW tried to ditch the Sauber name though? But they left it too late and BMW Sauber was already registered.

I might just be getting confused with the 2010 season. The BMW name lived on there despite BMW's 2009 withdrawal. The team was rather confusingly "BMW Sauber Ferrari".

I think both these situations were to ensure the team received payments from the sport by maintaining continuity of the team name.

j man wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

Alienturnedhuman wrote:Surprised to not see a thread on this, but it is the quiet season.

With Sauber gone, it's the final of the 90s medium sized privateer teams to disappear from the grid. Although with 26 seasons in the sport, that means they lasted twice as long as the Jordan name did.

Where exactly are they going? Apologies if I've missed something but I thought Sauber were still in F1.

The team is still there, but it has been re-branded as Alfa Romeo.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/47089294

A shame, they've turned one of F1's long-standing historical names into a soulless marketing exercise. To suggest that this team inherits any of the DNA of the successful Alfa Romeo team from the 50s is beyond laughable.

You don't get it. What choice does Alfa Romeo have? They have no other name to use if they want their own team in F1. It's the same as Mercedes coming back to F1. It's not that someone bought right to use name of some long dead company. Alfa always existed since 1910s or 20s.

ALFA was born in 1909 when Italians bought a French car factory set in Milan (Darracq)... Mr Romeo, an ingineer, came in just the next year, and they started racing as soon as 1911 (at the Targa Florio).

dizlexik wrote:

j man wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

Alienturnedhuman wrote:Surprised to not see a thread on this, but it is the quiet season.

With Sauber gone, it's the final of the 90s medium sized privateer teams to disappear from the grid. Although with 26 seasons in the sport, that means they lasted twice as long as the Jordan name did.

Where exactly are they going? Apologies if I've missed something but I thought Sauber were still in F1.

The team is still there, but it has been re-branded as Alfa Romeo.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/47089294

A shame, they've turned one of F1's long-standing historical names into a soulless marketing exercise. To suggest that this team inherits any of the DNA of the successful Alfa Romeo team from the 50s is beyond laughable.

You don't get it. What choice does Alfa Romeo have? They have no other name to use if they want their own team in F1. It's the same as Mercedes coming back to F1. It's not that someone bought right to use name of some long dead company. Alfa always existed since 1910s or 20s.

But this is different to the Mercedes situation. Alfa Romeo are not an independent car manufacturer and have not bought the team themselves. Fiat are Alfa's parent company and it is they who have put the investment in, and have merely decided to use the team to promote one of the brands that they own. This isn't an Alfa Romeo team, it's a Fiat marketing exercise.

I'm probably being a bit thick skinned but Alfa Romeo sounds better to me than Sauber, I guess it's the nostalgia thing?

dizlexik wrote:

j man wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

Alienturnedhuman wrote:Surprised to not see a thread on this, but it is the quiet season.

With Sauber gone, it's the final of the 90s medium sized privateer teams to disappear from the grid. Although with 26 seasons in the sport, that means they lasted twice as long as the Jordan name did.

Where exactly are they going? Apologies if I've missed something but I thought Sauber were still in F1.

The team is still there, but it has been re-branded as Alfa Romeo.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/47089294

A shame, they've turned one of F1's long-standing historical names into a soulless marketing exercise. To suggest that this team inherits any of the DNA of the successful Alfa Romeo team from the 50s is beyond laughable.

You don't get it. What choice does Alfa Romeo have? They have no other name to use if they want their own team in F1. It's the same as Mercedes coming back to F1. It's not that someone bought right to use name of some long dead company. Alfa always existed since 1910s or 20s.

Could they not do what BMW did?

mikeyg123 wrote:

dizlexik wrote:You don't get it. What choice does Alfa Romeo have? They have no other name to use if they want their own team in F1. It's the same as Mercedes coming back to F1. It's not that someone bought right to use name of some long dead company. Alfa always existed since 1910s or 20s.

Could they not do what BMW did?

But did anyone really think of that team as BMW? Or did they think of it as Sauber, with a BMW works deal?

Exediron wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

dizlexik wrote:You don't get it. What choice does Alfa Romeo have? They have no other name to use if they want their own team in F1. It's the same as Mercedes coming back to F1. It's not that someone bought right to use name of some long dead company. Alfa always existed since 1910s or 20s.

Could they not do what BMW did?

But did anyone really think of that team as BMW? Or did they think of it as Sauber, with a BMW works deal?

BMW I think. It was always colloquially always called BMW. Compare it to BMW Williams. Which was a Williams with a BMW works deal. They were colloquially known as Williams.

mikeyg123 wrote:

Exediron wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

dizlexik wrote:You don't get it. What choice does Alfa Romeo have? They have no other name to use if they want their own team in F1. It's the same as Mercedes coming back to F1. It's not that someone bought right to use name of some long dead company. Alfa always existed since 1910s or 20s.

Could they not do what BMW did?

But did anyone really think of that team as BMW? Or did they think of it as Sauber, with a BMW works deal?

BMW I think. It was always colloquially always called BMW. Compare it to BMW Williams. Which was a Williams with a BMW works deal. They were colloquially known as Williams.

Yes, I always thought of BMW Sauber as BMW (except in 2010 obviously). It was very much a case of them striking out alone after things went sour with the Williams partnership. Well certainly after 2006 anyway.

The BMW-Williams partnership seemed much more of an equal partnership in the Mclaren-Mercedes mould.

Okay, fair enough. I never did, but I am certainly willing to accept that plenty of other people saw it differently from myself.

j man wrote:

dizlexik wrote:

j man wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

Alienturnedhuman wrote:Surprised to not see a thread on this, but it is the quiet season.

With Sauber gone, it's the final of the 90s medium sized privateer teams to disappear from the grid. Although with 26 seasons in the sport, that means they lasted twice as long as the Jordan name did.

Where exactly are they going? Apologies if I've missed something but I thought Sauber were still in F1.

The team is still there, but it has been re-branded as Alfa Romeo.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/47089294

A shame, they've turned one of F1's long-standing historical names into a soulless marketing exercise. To suggest that this team inherits any of the DNA of the successful Alfa Romeo team from the 50s is beyond laughable.

You don't get it. What choice does Alfa Romeo have? They have no other name to use if they want their own team in F1. It's the same as Mercedes coming back to F1. It's not that someone bought right to use name of some long dead company. Alfa always existed since 1910s or 20s.

But this is different to the Mercedes situation. Alfa Romeo are not an independent car manufacturer and have not bought the team themselves. Fiat are Alfa's parent company and it is they who have put the investment in, and have merely decided to use the team to promote one of the brands that they own. This isn't an Alfa Romeo team, it's a Fiat marketing exercise.

It's a marketing exercise that will need some success to work. Alfa Romeo is a name with a lot of motor racing pedigree. Yes I know it's now owned by Fiat which kills some of the magic around the name, but the same is true of Ferrari.

Alfa may be pencilled in as being Ferrari's version of Torro Rosso. But I think they are also there as a bit of a kick up the backside to the Ferrari Formula one team.

Exediron wrote:Okay, fair enough. I never did, but I am certainly willing to accept that plenty of other people saw it differently from myself.

I think what swings it for me is Kubica's win in 2008. James Allen was talking about Kubica winning for BMW. He talked about it being their first win as a constructor. On the ITV graphic with the Constructors championship standings, they were listed as simply BMW. There was scarcely a mention of Sauber.

pokerman wrote:I'm probably being a bit thick skinned but Alfa Romeo sounds better to me than Sauber, I guess it's the nostalgia thing?

For me Sauber IS just as Nostalgiac as any other name to have ever competed in F1, BUT Sauber brought more superstar elite drivers than most other teams in history, and on very small budgets. Peter Sauber and his namesake are an integral part of the fabric that is F1, just as much as Frank Williams, Ron Dennis, Enzo Ferrari, Sir Jack Brabham, Bruce McLaren, and very few others.

Sauber has endured for decades through the most financially difficult and demanding era of the sport. BMW bought out the team and tried their hand at shooting to the top but found it just as difficult as anyone ever, and then they literally bailed on F1 altogether, leaving Sauber teetering on the brink of extinction and Peter stepped up and bought back the team to ensure the employees still had jobs and the team carried on. All of this financed by Peter's Private businesses which are not giant manufacturers backed by bucket loads of corporate cash.

Alfa Romeo were part of F1 early on but their tenure as a constructor was RATHER Brief as they walked away altogether, but their engines were so excellent, many other teams used their engines and modified them to suit their tastes. But their involvement was not direct for almost 2 decades until budget garagistas in the 70's once again looked to AR's engines, but they were based on the V8's powering their road going vehicles, again modified by engineers in an attempt to make them F1 worthy, but they didn't match up to most other engines. Then they disappeared again until Fiat decided they wanted to once again familiarize the public with their somewhat forgotten brand. A brand that I find has made some hellaciously FUGLY cars for decades that didn't sell all that well. Now they swoop in, buy Sauber (which is fine) but then get rid of the original and iconic name of the team in an attempt to sell the world on the team being a true factory project when…

A) They run Ferrari engines

B) They're still operating from the Hinwill factory which is in Switzerland.

Henceforth, I don't see any Italian heritage behind the team outside their close affiliation with Ferrari over the last couple of decades, so the Alfa Romeo name (for me) in F1 has too little association with the sport to evoke any sentiment of nostalgia.

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

pokerman wrote:I'm probably being a bit thick skinned but Alfa Romeo sounds better to me than Sauber, I guess it's the nostalgia thing?

For me Sauber IS just as Nostalgiac as any other name to have ever competed in F1, BUT Sauber brought more superstar elite drivers than most other teams in history, and on very small budgets. Peter Sauber and his namesake are an integral part of the fabric that is F1, just as much as Frank Williams, Ron Dennis, Enzo Ferrari, Sir Jack Brabham, Bruce McLaren, and very few others.

Sauber has endured for decades through the most financially difficult and demanding era of the sport. BMW bought out the team and tried their hand at shooting to the top but found it just as difficult as anyone ever, and then they literally bailed on F1 altogether, leaving Sauber teetering on the brink of extinction and Peter stepped up and bought back the team to ensure the employees still had jobs and the team carried on. All of this financed by Peter's Private businesses which are not giant manufacturers backed by bucket loads of corporate cash.

Alfa Romeo were part of F1 early on but their tenure as a constructor was RATHER Brief as they walked away altogether, but their engines were so excellent, many other teams used their engines and modified them to suit their tastes. But their involvement was not direct for almost 2 decades until budget garagistas in the 70's once again looked to AR's engines, but they were based on the V8's powering their road going vehicles, again modified by engineers in an attempt to make them F1 worthy, but they didn't match up to most other engines. Then they disappeared again until Fiat decided they wanted to once again familiarize the public with their somewhat forgotten brand. A brand that I find has made some hellaciously FUGLY cars for decades that didn't sell all that well. Now they swoop in, buy Sauber (which is fine) but then get rid of the original and iconic name of the team in an attempt to sell the world on the team being a true factory project when…

A) They run Ferrari engines

B) They're still operating from the Hinwill factory which is in Switzerland.

Henceforth, I don't see any Italian heritage behind the team outside their close affiliation with Ferrari over the last couple of decades, so the Alfa Romeo name (for me) in F1 has too little association with the sport to evoke any sentiment of nostalgia.

Afla Romeo is true Alfa. If you go too much into it, you will realise that there aren't many teams that are true. Mercedes just bought couple British companies and splashed their own logos. Ilmor was British company. Their factory was home for Honda and other teams before is also in Britain. McLaren is just old Ron Dennis team with nothing but name in common with original McLaren. Oh and McLaren never made their own engines. Renault base in UK. Only Renault engines are designed in France, but not built IIRC. That only leaves Williams and Ferrari as the teams with some kind of continuity, but then you can argue so many things has changed that there is nothing left from old teams.

Of course you can argue that some teams from my list are actually true for some reason, but I'm intentionally finding issues to show how unfair you treat Alfa.

It is sad to see the Sauber name go. I'm glad the team is still operating, and I have no problem with seeing the Alfa Romeo name again (even if it is clearly not linked to their original F1 team in any direct way aside from the company's involvement), but I wish they'd left it as Alfa Romeo Sauber. I understand why they didn't, though.

Could be more to it than just a name change

https://www.essentiallysports.com/fiat- ... sauber-f1/

"Fiat Group chairman John Elkann has reportedly been given the option to buy the Sauber F1 team."

BMWSauber84 wrote:
Alfa may be pencilled in as being Ferrari's version of Torro Rosso.

This is where i'm leaning. Alfa will just be Ferrari's nursery & Guinea Pig.

If this is the case, then it'll mean we'll then have 2 teams on the grid whose absolute main aim will not be to win races & championships but to simply play a supporting role to another team on the grid.

The manufacturers continue to tighten their grip on the sport & the sport continues it's downward spiral

BMWSauber84 wrote:

Alienturnedhuman wrote: In this sense you have to give credit to BMW. It was their actual factory team, but they kept Sauber in the name during their years of the partnership. This is purely a marketing exercise for Alfa Romeo, to be Ferrari's Toro Rossi, yet they are scrapping the Sauber legacy in the process.

I thought that at one point BMW tried to ditch the Sauber name though? But they left it too late and BMW Sauber was already registered.

I might just be getting confused with the 2010 season. The BMW name lived on there despite BMW's 2009 withdrawal. The team was rather confusingly "BMW Sauber Ferrari".

If I'm not mistaken BMW was supposed to keep Sauber name for X (7?) number of years then they were free to ditch it, but BMW didn't stay long enough to make it happen. I can of course be wrong as I can't find any source to confirm that.

Jezza13 wrote:Could be more to it than just a name change

https://www.essentiallysports.com/fiat- ... sauber-f1/

"Fiat Group chairman John Elkann has reportedly been given the option to buy the Sauber F1 team."

BMWSauber84 wrote:
Alfa may be pencilled in as being Ferrari's version of Torro Rosso.

This is where i'm leaning. Alfa will just be Ferrari's nursery & Guinea Pig.

If this is the case, then it'll mean we'll then have 2 teams on the grid whose absolute main aim will not be to win races & championships but to simply play a supporting role to another team on the grid.

The manufacturers continue to tighten their grip on the sport & the sport continues it's downward spiral

Until the Fiat intervention though, Sauber were finished as a remotely competitive force. 2014-2017 were humiliating seasons for them. Once Manor folded they were comfortably the slowest car on the grid.

BMWSauber84 wrote:

Jezza13 wrote:Could be more to it than just a name change

https://www.essentiallysports.com/fiat- ... sauber-f1/

"Fiat Group chairman John Elkann has reportedly been given the option to buy the Sauber F1 team."

BMWSauber84 wrote:
Alfa may be pencilled in as being Ferrari's version of Torro Rosso.

This is where i'm leaning. Alfa will just be Ferrari's nursery & Guinea Pig.

If this is the case, then it'll mean we'll then have 2 teams on the grid whose absolute main aim will not be to win races & championships but to simply play a supporting role to another team on the grid.

The manufacturers continue to tighten their grip on the sport & the sport continues it's downward spiral

Until the Fiat intervention though, Sauber were finished as a remotely competitive force. 2014-2017 were humiliating seasons for them. Once Manor folded they were comfortably the slowest car on the grid.

So just as long as there's cars on grid, it doesn't matter why their there?

Is that what the premier motor sport category on the planet is coming to?

Jezza13 wrote:

BMWSauber84 wrote:

Jezza13 wrote:Could be more to it than just a name change

https://www.essentiallysports.com/fiat- ... sauber-f1/

"Fiat Group chairman John Elkann has reportedly been given the option to buy the Sauber F1 team."

BMWSauber84 wrote:
Alfa may be pencilled in as being Ferrari's version of Torro Rosso.

This is where i'm leaning. Alfa will just be Ferrari's nursery & Guinea Pig.

If this is the case, then it'll mean we'll then have 2 teams on the grid whose absolute main aim will not be to win races & championships but to simply play a supporting role to another team on the grid.

The manufacturers continue to tighten their grip on the sport & the sport continues it's downward spiral

Until the Fiat intervention though, Sauber were finished as a remotely competitive force. 2014-2017 were humiliating seasons for them. Once Manor folded they were comfortably the slowest car on the grid.

So just as long as there's cars on grid, it doesn't matter why their there?

Is that what the premier motor sport category on the planet is coming to?

Never said that. But we have to be realistic. Sauber has never been a title challenging force on it's own. At least in Formula one. It is better for the drivers that they have a more competitive team to go to.

It's kind of romantic to have little teams waddling round 2-3 seconds off the pace but it doesn't add anything to the overall spectacle.

dizlexik wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

pokerman wrote:I'm probably being a bit thick skinned but Alfa Romeo sounds better to me than Sauber, I guess it's the nostalgia thing?

For me Sauber IS just as Nostalgiac as any other name to have ever competed in F1, BUT Sauber brought more superstar elite drivers than most other teams in history, and on very small budgets. Peter Sauber and his namesake are an integral part of the fabric that is F1, just as much as Frank Williams, Ron Dennis, Enzo Ferrari, Sir Jack Brabham, Bruce McLaren, and very few others.

Sauber has endured for decades through the most financially difficult and demanding era of the sport. BMW bought out the team and tried their hand at shooting to the top but found it just as difficult as anyone ever, and then they literally bailed on F1 altogether, leaving Sauber teetering on the brink of extinction and Peter stepped up and bought back the team to ensure the employees still had jobs and the team carried on. All of this financed by Peter's Private businesses which are not giant manufacturers backed by bucket loads of corporate cash.

Alfa Romeo were part of F1 early on but their tenure as a constructor was RATHER Brief as they walked away altogether, but their engines were so excellent, many other teams used their engines and modified them to suit their tastes. But their involvement was not direct for almost 2 decades until budget garagistas in the 70's once again looked to AR's engines, but they were based on the V8's powering their road going vehicles, again modified by engineers in an attempt to make them F1 worthy, but they didn't match up to most other engines. Then they disappeared again until Fiat decided they wanted to once again familiarize the public with their somewhat forgotten brand. A brand that I find has made some hellaciously FUGLY cars for decades that didn't sell all that well. Now they swoop in, buy Sauber (which is fine) but then get rid of the original and iconic name of the team in an attempt to sell the world on the team being a true factory project when…

A) They run Ferrari engines

B) They're still operating from the Hinwill factory which is in Switzerland.

Henceforth, I don't see any Italian heritage behind the team outside their close affiliation with Ferrari over the last couple of decades, so the Alfa Romeo name (for me) in F1 has too little association with the sport to evoke any sentiment of nostalgia.

Afla Romeo is true Alfa. If you go too much into it, you will realise that there aren't many teams that are true. Mercedes just bought couple British companies and splashed their own logos. Ilmor was British company. Their factory was home for Honda and other teams before is also in Britain. McLaren is just old Ron Dennis team with nothing but name in common with original McLaren. Oh and McLaren never made their own engines. Renault base in UK. Only Renault engines are designed in France, but not built IIRC. That only leaves Williams and Ferrari as the teams with some kind of continuity, but then you can argue so many things has changed that there is nothing left from old teams.

Of course you can argue that some teams from my list are actually true for some reason, but I'm intentionally finding issues to show how unfair you treat Alfa.

I'm not treating Alfa in any way. Simply stating that Alfa really doesn't hold a node of Nostalgia. Their stints in F1 were so brief and so spread out, they didn't devote themselves enough to carry that distinction.

As for other teams slapping badges, I fully agree. Mercedes Road going vehicles are among the worst and their F1 variety are 100% British engineering and German only in the money now financing the operation. That's why I laugh when I see the term German Engineering whenever I see it applied to Mercedes Benz. It's Like when I hear someone refer to Pagani as an elite "Italian" automobile brand. I just cannot accept that as fact when they aren't powered by Italian engines. A few years ago on here I was "corrected" when I referred to Ferrari as the only true Italian Supercar Manufacturer because several people felt Pagani was the Crème Brûlée of fine Italian Sportscars. The day they manufacture their own originally designed engines is the day they'll be considered for that conversation. until then, just… no.

Williams & McLaren are the same companies they were 30 years ago in terms of how their F1 efforts are carried out, but McLaren is now owned by a conglomerate of investors.

Renault now owns their team once more, but they have a VERY long history with the sport and will forever be ingrained in the fabric of F1, and they can be associated with the term Nostalgic.

Remember when it was announced that Honda would be returning to F1 via partnering with, and powering McLaren?… That feeling you got in your gut?
That was Nostalgia causing chemical changes that made you feel that way.

When Lotus announced it was returning to F1 we all got a similar feeling for the same exact reason.

Sauber evokes the same feeling for many millions of fans and for good reason.
They dedicated themselves to the sport and are the 4th longest running team in the sport!!!
Only Ferrari, McLaren, and Williams have been in the sport longer. And while these 4 teams have been competing in and supporting the sport, where was Alfa?
At least Mercedes bought Ilmore and invested heavily and supported the sport for over 20 years before buying Honda/Brawn.

Alfa has been injected into the sport for 2 reasons… 1) to save the team, and 2) so that Fiat can promote a less successful brand. And while I welcome it wholeheartedly and understand the business behind it, killing off the name Sauber is IMPO criminal. And I hope this year they actually come up with a well designed livery. Their lazy approach last year was dull and boring.

Alfa Romeo will just be the Ferrari version of Toro Rosso.
However, with Haas getting the support from them too (do they still?) Do we have in effect 6 Ferraris on the grid?

In Football I am 100 percent against 'B' teams entering the English football league as it takes away spots for teams with a local fanbase and reduces the number of towns/cities represented.

In Formula one it is different and the fanbase and viewing experience are different. B teams are generally replacements or takeovers of failing teams. The idea that every team on the grid should be trying to win is romantic and honourable, but also utopian.

How many different constructors will win a race over the course of a decade? 8 if you're lucky? And three or four will win the constructors championship over that same decade if you're lucky. (This decade it has been two, with three being the best case scenario).

The sport only needs two teams to be competitive to provide a great season (2007). Anything else is a bonus. We currently have three competitive teams.

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

pokerman wrote:I'm probably being a bit thick skinned but Alfa Romeo sounds better to me than Sauber, I guess it's the nostalgia thing?

For me Sauber IS just as Nostalgiac as any other name to have ever competed in F1, BUT Sauber brought more superstar elite drivers than most other teams in history, and on very small budgets. Peter Sauber and his namesake are an integral part of the fabric that is F1, just as much as Frank Williams, Ron Dennis, Enzo Ferrari, Sir Jack Brabham, Bruce McLaren, and very few others.

Sauber has endured for decades through the most financially difficult and demanding era of the sport. BMW bought out the team and tried their hand at shooting to the top but found it just as difficult as anyone ever, and then they literally bailed on F1 altogether, leaving Sauber teetering on the brink of extinction and Peter stepped up and bought back the team to ensure the employees still had jobs and the team carried on. All of this financed by Peter's Private businesses which are not giant manufacturers backed by bucket loads of corporate cash.

Alfa Romeo were part of F1 early on but their tenure as a constructor was RATHER Brief as they walked away altogether, but their engines were so excellent, many other teams used their engines and modified them to suit their tastes. But their involvement was not direct for almost 2 decades until budget garagistas in the 70's once again looked to AR's engines, but they were based on the V8's powering their road going vehicles, again modified by engineers in an attempt to make them F1 worthy, but they didn't match up to most other engines. Then they disappeared again until Fiat decided they wanted to once again familiarize the public with their somewhat forgotten brand. A brand that I find has made some hellaciously FUGLY cars for decades that didn't sell all that well. Now they swoop in, buy Sauber (which is fine) but then get rid of the original and iconic name of the team in an attempt to sell the world on the team being a true factory project when…

A) They run Ferrari engines

B) They're still operating from the Hinwill factory which is in Switzerland.

Henceforth, I don't see any Italian heritage behind the team outside their close affiliation with Ferrari over the last couple of decades, so the Alfa Romeo name (for me) in F1 has too little association with the sport to evoke any sentiment of nostalgia.

I guess that's were my thick skiness comes into it because I don't have nostalgia for teams that don't win anything, Alfa Romeo won the first ever F1 race and the first 2 titles whilst Sauber won nothing they just made up the numbers.

You mention BMW as achieving very little as well but it's no coincidence that this was the most competitive period no matter how short it lasted which resulted in a GP win which was very much accredited to BMW and not Sauber.

I took the trouble to read some other posts further down including yours before posting, were you compare Sauber with the likes of McLaren Honda and Lotus in the list of nostalgic teams but McLaren Honda and Lotus actually won races and titles and that's the reason they are revered.

It was also pointed out that Sauber were propping up the grid before FIAT started investing in them which has moved them up the grid, Sauber were in a poor state, so we are also looking at a more competitive team and FIAT are not a charity so advertising their own car brand which happens to have history with the sport makes perfect sense.

As for the name of the team, Alfa Romeo Sauber just spells title branding, whilst Alfa Romeo spells a fully fledged return of a nostalgic name no matter how true or not, and if as I see rumoured that FIAT do buy Sauber out then as you have agreed it's little different to what Mercedes did, I don't think people view that as mere badging?

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

dizlexik wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

pokerman wrote:I'm probably being a bit thick skinned but Alfa Romeo sounds better to me than Sauber, I guess it's the nostalgia thing?

For me Sauber IS just as Nostalgiac as any other name to have ever competed in F1, BUT Sauber brought more superstar elite drivers than most other teams in history, and on very small budgets. Peter Sauber and his namesake are an integral part of the fabric that is F1, just as much as Frank Williams, Ron Dennis, Enzo Ferrari, Sir Jack Brabham, Bruce McLaren, and very few others.

Sauber has endured for decades through the most financially difficult and demanding era of the sport. BMW bought out the team and tried their hand at shooting to the top but found it just as difficult as anyone ever, and then they literally bailed on F1 altogether, leaving Sauber teetering on the brink of extinction and Peter stepped up and bought back the team to ensure the employees still had jobs and the team carried on. All of this financed by Peter's Private businesses which are not giant manufacturers backed by bucket loads of corporate cash.

Alfa Romeo were part of F1 early on but their tenure as a constructor was RATHER Brief as they walked away altogether, but their engines were so excellent, many other teams used their engines and modified them to suit their tastes. But their involvement was not direct for almost 2 decades until budget garagistas in the 70's once again looked to AR's engines, but they were based on the V8's powering their road going vehicles, again modified by engineers in an attempt to make them F1 worthy, but they didn't match up to most other engines. Then they disappeared again until Fiat decided they wanted to once again familiarize the public with their somewhat forgotten brand. A brand that I find has made some hellaciously FUGLY cars for decades that didn't sell all that well. Now they swoop in, buy Sauber (which is fine) but then get rid of the original and iconic name of the team in an attempt to sell the world on the team being a true factory project when…

A) They run Ferrari engines

B) They're still operating from the Hinwill factory which is in Switzerland.

Henceforth, I don't see any Italian heritage behind the team outside their close affiliation with Ferrari over the last couple of decades, so the Alfa Romeo name (for me) in F1 has too little association with the sport to evoke any sentiment of nostalgia.

Afla Romeo is true Alfa. If you go too much into it, you will realise that there aren't many teams that are true. Mercedes just bought couple British companies and splashed their own logos. Ilmor was British company. Their factory was home for Honda and other teams before is also in Britain. McLaren is just old Ron Dennis team with nothing but name in common with original McLaren. Oh and McLaren never made their own engines. Renault base in UK. Only Renault engines are designed in France, but not built IIRC. That only leaves Williams and Ferrari as the teams with some kind of continuity, but then you can argue so many things has changed that there is nothing left from old teams.

Of course you can argue that some teams from my list are actually true for some reason, but I'm intentionally finding issues to show how unfair you treat Alfa.

I'm not treating Alfa in any way. Simply stating that Alfa really doesn't hold a node of Nostalgia. Their stints in F1 were so brief and so spread out, they didn't devote themselves enough to carry that distinction.

As for other teams slapping badges, I fully agree. Mercedes Road going vehicles are among the worst and their F1 variety are 100% British engineering and German only in the money now financing the operation. That's why I laugh when I see the term German Engineering whenever I see it applied to Mercedes Benz. It's Like when I hear someone refer to Pagani as an elite "Italian" automobile brand. I just cannot accept that as fact when they aren't powered by Italian engines. A few years ago on here I was "corrected" when I referred to Ferrari as the only true Italian Supercar Manufacturer because several people felt Pagani was the Crème Brûlée of fine Italian Sportscars. The day they manufacture their own originally designed engines is the day they'll be considered for that conversation. until then, just… no.

Williams & McLaren are the same companies they were 30 years ago in terms of how their F1 efforts are carried out, but McLaren is now owned by a conglomerate of investors.

Renault now owns their team once more, but they have a VERY long history with the sport and will forever be ingrained in the fabric of F1, and they can be associated with the term Nostalgic.

Remember when it was announced that Honda would be returning to F1 via partnering with, and powering McLaren?… That feeling you got in your gut?
That was Nostalgia causing chemical changes that made you feel that way.

When Lotus announced it was returning to F1 we all got a similar feeling for the same exact reason.

Sauber evokes the same feeling for many millions of fans and for good reason.
They dedicated themselves to the sport and are the 4th longest running team in the sport!!!
Only Ferrari, McLaren, and Williams have been in the sport longer. And while these 4 teams have been competing in and supporting the sport, where was Alfa?
At least Mercedes bought Ilmore and invested heavily and supported the sport for over 20 years before buying Honda/Brawn.

Alfa has been injected into the sport for 2 reasons… 1) to save the team, and 2) so that Fiat can promote a less successful brand. And while I welcome it wholeheartedly and understand the business behind it, killing off the name Sauber is IMPO criminal. And I hope this year they actually come up with a well designed livery. Their lazy approach last year was dull and boring.

I see, apologies for the tone of my message.

No need for an apology. I took your post as a counter argument to my own argument, and fully understood where you were coming from.
Always excellent to see things from different points of view, and more gratifying to discuss all things F1 with other well informed, die hard F1 aficionados.

pokerman wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

pokerman wrote:I'm probably being a bit thick skinned but Alfa Romeo sounds better to me than Sauber, I guess it's the nostalgia thing?

For me Sauber IS just as Nostalgiac as any other name to have ever competed in F1, BUT Sauber brought more superstar elite drivers than most other teams in history, and on very small budgets. Peter Sauber and his namesake are an integral part of the fabric that is F1, just as much as Frank Williams, Ron Dennis, Enzo Ferrari, Sir Jack Brabham, Bruce McLaren, and very few others.

Sauber has endured for decades through the most financially difficult and demanding era of the sport. BMW bought out the team and tried their hand at shooting to the top but found it just as difficult as anyone ever, and then they literally bailed on F1 altogether, leaving Sauber teetering on the brink of extinction and Peter stepped up and bought back the team to ensure the employees still had jobs and the team carried on. All of this financed by Peter's Private businesses which are not giant manufacturers backed by bucket loads of corporate cash.

Alfa Romeo were part of F1 early on but their tenure as a constructor was RATHER Brief as they walked away altogether, but their engines were so excellent, many other teams used their engines and modified them to suit their tastes. But their involvement was not direct for almost 2 decades until budget garagistas in the 70's once again looked to AR's engines, but they were based on the V8's powering their road going vehicles, again modified by engineers in an attempt to make them F1 worthy, but they didn't match up to most other engines. Then they disappeared again until Fiat decided they wanted to once again familiarize the public with their somewhat forgotten brand. A brand that I find has made some hellaciously FUGLY cars for decades that didn't sell all that well. Now they swoop in, buy Sauber (which is fine) but then get rid of the original and iconic name of the team in an attempt to sell the world on the team being a true factory project when…

A) They run Ferrari engines

B) They're still operating from the Hinwill factory which is in Switzerland.

Henceforth, I don't see any Italian heritage behind the team outside their close affiliation with Ferrari over the last couple of decades, so the Alfa Romeo name (for me) in F1 has too little association with the sport to evoke any sentiment of nostalgia.

I guess that's were my thick skiness comes into it because I don't have nostalgia for teams that don't win anything, Alfa Romeo won the first ever F1 race and the first 2 titles whilst Sauber won nothing they just made up the numbers.

You mention BMW as achieving very little as well but it's no coincidence that this was the most competitive period no matter how short it lasted which resulted in a GP win which was very much accredited to BMW and not Sauber.

I took the trouble to read some other posts further down including yours before posting, were you compare Sauber with the likes of McLaren Honda and Lotus in the list of nostalgic teams but McLaren Honda and Lotus actually won races and titles and that's the reason they are revered.

It was also pointed out that Sauber were propping up the grid before FIAT started investing in them which has moved them up the grid, Sauber were in a poor state, so we are also looking at a more competitive team and FIAT are not a charity so advertising their own car brand which happens to have history with the sport makes perfect sense.

As for the name of the team, Alfa Romeo Sauber just spells title branding, whilst Alfa Romeo spells a fully fledged return of a nostalgic name no matter how true or not, and if as I see rumoured that FIAT do buy Sauber out then as you have agreed it's little different to what Mercedes did, I don't think people view that as mere badging?

I disagree that a team in any sport has to win in order to be revered. There are PLENTY of professional sports teams from every sport on earth who have undying die-hard fans who are fanatical about them. Pro sports clubs who have never won championships can and do hold nostalgic status for their unwavering dedication to said sport.

And just like many professional sports franchises, Sauber may have fared better if they had the budget to pay drivers they discovered who went on to become top talents for lengthy periods of time, but were instead poached by other teams who had vastly deeper pockets than Sauber and thus lost them to the almighty dollar. HOWEVER, Peter Sauber has perhaps the keenest eye ever seen in the history of the sport in spotting top talents from a vast many different disciplines of motorsport because if you create a list of young and often unknown guys they signed, you'd end up with one of, if not the most impressive list of drivers among all the teams since Sauber entered the sport. Of note, Minardi was quite similar in this regard, and is indicative oh how given their much smaller budgets handicapped them from the start, they realized their best option was to scour the depths of motorsport to spot the best young talent possible.

Peter Sauber's approach to finding young talent is pretty much the model everyone has taken to in developing the modern day young driver programs most teams now practice.

pokerman wrote:I guess that's were my thick skiness comes into it because I don't have nostalgia for teams that don't win anything

I think the term you're looking for is elitist, not thick skinned. I don't think it's reasonable to value teams solely for winning in an inherently unequal sport like F1.

F1 MERCENARY wrote:No need for an apology. I took your post as a counter argument to my own argument, and fully understood where you were coming from.
Always excellent to see things from different points of view, and more gratifying to discuss all things F1 with other well informed, die hard F1 aficionados.

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

pokerman wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

pokerman wrote:I'm probably being a bit thick skinned but Alfa Romeo sounds better to me than Sauber, I guess it's the nostalgia thing?

For me Sauber IS just as Nostalgiac as any other name to have ever competed in F1, BUT Sauber brought more superstar elite drivers than most other teams in history, and on very small budgets. Peter Sauber and his namesake are an integral part of the fabric that is F1, just as much as Frank Williams, Ron Dennis, Enzo Ferrari, Sir Jack Brabham, Bruce McLaren, and very few others.

Sauber has endured for decades through the most financially difficult and demanding era of the sport. BMW bought out the team and tried their hand at shooting to the top but found it just as difficult as anyone ever, and then they literally bailed on F1 altogether, leaving Sauber teetering on the brink of extinction and Peter stepped up and bought back the team to ensure the employees still had jobs and the team carried on. All of this financed by Peter's Private businesses which are not giant manufacturers backed by bucket loads of corporate cash.

Alfa Romeo were part of F1 early on but their tenure as a constructor was RATHER Brief as they walked away altogether, but their engines were so excellent, many other teams used their engines and modified them to suit their tastes. But their involvement was not direct for almost 2 decades until budget garagistas in the 70's once again looked to AR's engines, but they were based on the V8's powering their road going vehicles, again modified by engineers in an attempt to make them F1 worthy, but they didn't match up to most other engines. Then they disappeared again until Fiat decided they wanted to once again familiarize the public with their somewhat forgotten brand. A brand that I find has made some hellaciously FUGLY cars for decades that didn't sell all that well. Now they swoop in, buy Sauber (which is fine) but then get rid of the original and iconic name of the team in an attempt to sell the world on the team being a true factory project when…

A) They run Ferrari engines

B) They're still operating from the Hinwill factory which is in Switzerland.

Henceforth, I don't see any Italian heritage behind the team outside their close affiliation with Ferrari over the last couple of decades, so the Alfa Romeo name (for me) in F1 has too little association with the sport to evoke any sentiment of nostalgia.

I guess that's were my thick skiness comes into it because I don't have nostalgia for teams that don't win anything, Alfa Romeo won the first ever F1 race and the first 2 titles whilst Sauber won nothing they just made up the numbers.

You mention BMW as achieving very little as well but it's no coincidence that this was the most competitive period no matter how short it lasted which resulted in a GP win which was very much accredited to BMW and not Sauber.

I took the trouble to read some other posts further down including yours before posting, were you compare Sauber with the likes of McLaren Honda and Lotus in the list of nostalgic teams but McLaren Honda and Lotus actually won races and titles and that's the reason they are revered.

It was also pointed out that Sauber were propping up the grid before FIAT started investing in them which has moved them up the grid, Sauber were in a poor state, so we are also looking at a more competitive team and FIAT are not a charity so advertising their own car brand which happens to have history with the sport makes perfect sense.

As for the name of the team, Alfa Romeo Sauber just spells title branding, whilst Alfa Romeo spells a fully fledged return of a nostalgic name no matter how true or not, and if as I see rumoured that FIAT do buy Sauber out then as you have agreed it's little different to what Mercedes did, I don't think people view that as mere badging?

I disagree that a team in any sport has to win in order to be revered. There are PLENTY of professional sports teams from every sport on earth who have undying die-hard fans who are fanatical about them. Pro sports clubs who have never won championships can and do hold nostalgic status for their unwavering dedication to said sport.

And just like many professional sports franchises, Sauber may have fared better if they had the budget to pay drivers they discovered who went on to become top talents for lengthy periods of time, but were instead poached by other teams who had vastly deeper pockets than Sauber and thus lost them to the almighty dollar. HOWEVER, Peter Sauber has perhaps the keenest eye ever seen in the history of the sport in spotting top talents from a vast many different disciplines of motorsport because if you create a list of young and often unknown guys they signed, you'd end up with one of, if not the most impressive list of drivers among all the teams since Sauber entered the sport. Of note, Minardi was quite similar in this regard, and is indicative oh how given their much smaller budgets handicapped them from the start, they realized their best option was to scour the depths of motorsport to spot the best young talent possible.

Peter Sauber's approach to finding young talent is pretty much the model everyone has taken to in developing the modern day young driver programs most teams now practice.

Peter Sauber has not had anything to do with Sauber for many years now, I would say the team had become a shell of what it once was and at times a bit of a joke when they gave contracts to 3/4 drivers when they only had the 2 seats available.

pokerman wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

pokerman wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

pokerman wrote:I'm probably being a bit thick skinned but Alfa Romeo sounds better to me than Sauber, I guess it's the nostalgia thing?

For me Sauber IS just as Nostalgiac as any other name to have ever competed in F1, BUT Sauber brought more superstar elite drivers than most other teams in history, and on very small budgets. Peter Sauber and his namesake are an integral part of the fabric that is F1, just as much as Frank Williams, Ron Dennis, Enzo Ferrari, Sir Jack Brabham, Bruce McLaren, and very few others.

Sauber has endured for decades through the most financially difficult and demanding era of the sport. BMW bought out the team and tried their hand at shooting to the top but found it just as difficult as anyone ever, and then they literally bailed on F1 altogether, leaving Sauber teetering on the brink of extinction and Peter stepped up and bought back the team to ensure the employees still had jobs and the team carried on. All of this financed by Peter's Private businesses which are not giant manufacturers backed by bucket loads of corporate cash.

Alfa Romeo were part of F1 early on but their tenure as a constructor was RATHER Brief as they walked away altogether, but their engines were so excellent, many other teams used their engines and modified them to suit their tastes. But their involvement was not direct for almost 2 decades until budget garagistas in the 70's once again looked to AR's engines, but they were based on the V8's powering their road going vehicles, again modified by engineers in an attempt to make them F1 worthy, but they didn't match up to most other engines. Then they disappeared again until Fiat decided they wanted to once again familiarize the public with their somewhat forgotten brand. A brand that I find has made some hellaciously FUGLY cars for decades that didn't sell all that well. Now they swoop in, buy Sauber (which is fine) but then get rid of the original and iconic name of the team in an attempt to sell the world on the team being a true factory project when…

A) They run Ferrari engines

B) They're still operating from the Hinwill factory which is in Switzerland.

Henceforth, I don't see any Italian heritage behind the team outside their close affiliation with Ferrari over the last couple of decades, so the Alfa Romeo name (for me) in F1 has too little association with the sport to evoke any sentiment of nostalgia.

I guess that's were my thick skiness comes into it because I don't have nostalgia for teams that don't win anything, Alfa Romeo won the first ever F1 race and the first 2 titles whilst Sauber won nothing they just made up the numbers.

You mention BMW as achieving very little as well but it's no coincidence that this was the most competitive period no matter how short it lasted which resulted in a GP win which was very much accredited to BMW and not Sauber.

I took the trouble to read some other posts further down including yours before posting, were you compare Sauber with the likes of McLaren Honda and Lotus in the list of nostalgic teams but McLaren Honda and Lotus actually won races and titles and that's the reason they are revered.

It was also pointed out that Sauber were propping up the grid before FIAT started investing in them which has moved them up the grid, Sauber were in a poor state, so we are also looking at a more competitive team and FIAT are not a charity so advertising their own car brand which happens to have history with the sport makes perfect sense.

As for the name of the team, Alfa Romeo Sauber just spells title branding, whilst Alfa Romeo spells a fully fledged return of a nostalgic name no matter how true or not, and if as I see rumoured that FIAT do buy Sauber out then as you have agreed it's little different to what Mercedes did, I don't think people view that as mere badging?

I disagree that a team in any sport has to win in order to be revered. There are PLENTY of professional sports teams from every sport on earth who have undying die-hard fans who are fanatical about them. Pro sports clubs who have never won championships can and do hold nostalgic status for their unwavering dedication to said sport.

And just like many professional sports franchises, Sauber may have fared better if they had the budget to pay drivers they discovered who went on to become top talents for lengthy periods of time, but were instead poached by other teams who had vastly deeper pockets than Sauber and thus lost them to the almighty dollar. HOWEVER, Peter Sauber has perhaps the keenest eye ever seen in the history of the sport in spotting top talents from a vast many different disciplines of motorsport because if you create a list of young and often unknown guys they signed, you'd end up with one of, if not the most impressive list of drivers among all the teams since Sauber entered the sport. Of note, Minardi was quite similar in this regard, and is indicative oh how given their much smaller budgets handicapped them from the start, they realized their best option was to scour the depths of motorsport to spot the best young talent possible.

Peter Sauber's approach to finding young talent is pretty much the model everyone has taken to in developing the modern day young driver programs most teams now practice.

Peter Sauber has not had anything to do with Sauber for many years now, I would say the team had become a shell of what it once was and at times a bit of a joke when they gave contracts to 3/4 drivers when they only had the 2 seats available.

I thought he retired in 2016 or something, not that long ago

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

pokerman wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote: For me Sauber IS just as Nostalgiac as any other name to have ever competed in F1, BUT Sauber brought more superstar elite drivers than most other teams in history, and on very small budgets. Peter Sauber and his namesake are an integral part of the fabric that is F1, just as much as Frank Williams, Ron Dennis, Enzo Ferrari, Sir Jack Brabham, Bruce McLaren, and very few others.

Sauber has endured for decades through the most financially difficult and demanding era of the sport. BMW bought out the team and tried their hand at shooting to the top but found it just as difficult as anyone ever, and then they literally bailed on F1 altogether, leaving Sauber teetering on the brink of extinction and Peter stepped up and bought back the team to ensure the employees still had jobs and the team carried on. All of this financed by Peter's Private businesses which are not giant manufacturers backed by bucket loads of corporate cash.

Alfa Romeo were part of F1 early on but their tenure as a constructor was RATHER Brief as they walked away altogether, but their engines were so excellent, many other teams used their engines and modified them to suit their tastes. But their involvement was not direct for almost 2 decades until budget garagistas in the 70's once again looked to AR's engines, but they were based on the V8's powering their road going vehicles, again modified by engineers in an attempt to make them F1 worthy, but they didn't match up to most other engines. Then they disappeared again until Fiat decided they wanted to once again familiarize the public with their somewhat forgotten brand. A brand that I find has made some hellaciously FUGLY cars for decades that didn't sell all that well. Now they swoop in, buy Sauber (which is fine) but then get rid of the original and iconic name of the team in an attempt to sell the world on the team being a true factory project when…

A) They run Ferrari engines

B) They're still operating from the Hinwill factory which is in Switzerland.

Henceforth, I don't see any Italian heritage behind the team outside their close affiliation with Ferrari over the last couple of decades, so the Alfa Romeo name (for me) in F1 has too little association with the sport to evoke any sentiment of nostalgia.

I guess that's were my thick skiness comes into it because I don't have nostalgia for teams that don't win anything, Alfa Romeo won the first ever F1 race and the first 2 titles whilst Sauber won nothing they just made up the numbers.

You mention BMW as achieving very little as well but it's no coincidence that this was the most competitive period no matter how short it lasted which resulted in a GP win which was very much accredited to BMW and not Sauber.

I took the trouble to read some other posts further down including yours before posting, were you compare Sauber with the likes of McLaren Honda and Lotus in the list of nostalgic teams but McLaren Honda and Lotus actually won races and titles and that's the reason they are revered.

It was also pointed out that Sauber were propping up the grid before FIAT started investing in them which has moved them up the grid, Sauber were in a poor state, so we are also looking at a more competitive team and FIAT are not a charity so advertising their own car brand which happens to have history with the sport makes perfect sense.

As for the name of the team, Alfa Romeo Sauber just spells title branding, whilst Alfa Romeo spells a fully fledged return of a nostalgic name no matter how true or not, and if as I see rumoured that FIAT do buy Sauber out then as you have agreed it's little different to what Mercedes did, I don't think people view that as mere badging?

I disagree that a team in any sport has to win in order to be revered. There are PLENTY of professional sports teams from every sport on earth who have undying die-hard fans who are fanatical about them. Pro sports clubs who have never won championships can and do hold nostalgic status for their unwavering dedication to said sport.

And just like many professional sports franchises, Sauber may have fared better if they had the budget to pay drivers they discovered who went on to become top talents for lengthy periods of time, but were instead poached by other teams who had vastly deeper pockets than Sauber and thus lost them to the almighty dollar. HOWEVER, Peter Sauber has perhaps the keenest eye ever seen in the history of the sport in spotting top talents from a vast many different disciplines of motorsport because if you create a list of young and often unknown guys they signed, you'd end up with one of, if not the most impressive list of drivers among all the teams since Sauber entered the sport. Of note, Minardi was quite similar in this regard, and is indicative oh how given their much smaller budgets handicapped them from the start, they realized their best option was to scour the depths of motorsport to spot the best young talent possible.

Peter Sauber's approach to finding young talent is pretty much the model everyone has taken to in developing the modern day young driver programs most teams now practice.

Peter Sauber has not had anything to do with Sauber for many years now, I would say the team had become a shell of what it once was and at times a bit of a joke when they gave contracts to 3/4 drivers when they only had the 2 seats available.

I thought he retired in 2016 or something, not that long ago

He clearly wasn't involved in key decisions, would he have allowed the driver fiasco if he had of been?

I take your point about actual ownership though.