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The start of 2018 for me was Hamilton underperforming. He got out qualified by Bottas 2-0 in the first 3 races when both took part in Q3. Hamilton also made an uncharacteristic race mistake in Baku, his only all season (?) in race 4 that took him out of contention. Then Hamilton had a grid penalty in the other race.

For the last 3 seasons now, Hamilton has been below par for the first 3-4 races. Usually by Spain he has it together and especially the second half of the year.

Johnson wrote:The start of 2018 for me was Hamilton underperforming. He got out qualified by Bottas 2-0 in the first 3 races when both took part in Q3. Hamilton also made an uncharacteristic race mistake in Baku, his only all season (?) in race 4 that took him out of contention. Then Hamilton had a grid penalty in the other race.

For the last 3 seasons now, Hamilton has been below par for the first 3-4 races. Usually by Spain he has it together and especially the second half of the year.

I would agree since winning his 3rd world title he seems to have to warm to the season, I think that was always a goal for him to emulate Senna which he then achieved. I think he starts the season perhaps a bit too relaxed whilst Bottas is perhaps biting at the bit and beat Hamilton away from the start, he always needs some kind of wake up call.

pokerman wrote:

Johnson wrote:The start of 2018 for me was Hamilton underperforming. He got out qualified by Bottas 2-0 in the first 3 races when both took part in Q3. Hamilton also made an uncharacteristic race mistake in Baku, his only all season (?) in race 4 that took him out of contention. Then Hamilton had a grid penalty in the other race.

For the last 3 seasons now, Hamilton has been below par for the first 3-4 races. Usually by Spain he has it together and especially the second half of the year.

I would agree since winning his 3rd world title he seems to have to warm to the season, I think that was always a goal for him to emulate Senna which he then achieved. I think he starts the season perhaps a bit too relaxed whilst Bottas is perhaps biting at the bit and beat Hamilton away from the start, he always needs some kind of wake up call.

I agree too. Based on his comments, I think Bottas came into this season guns blazing pushing himself harder than he ever has before. I didn't think he had it in him, but he's charging hard because if he doesn't have a significant advantage over Lewis, he is quickly relegated to #2. Once Hamilton gets going he doesn't stop so it will be interesting to see how consistent Bottas can deliver podiums early in the season.

Bentrovato wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Johnson wrote:The start of 2018 for me was Hamilton underperforming. He got out qualified by Bottas 2-0 in the first 3 races when both took part in Q3. Hamilton also made an uncharacteristic race mistake in Baku, his only all season (?) in race 4 that took him out of contention. Then Hamilton had a grid penalty in the other race.

For the last 3 seasons now, Hamilton has been below par for the first 3-4 races. Usually by Spain he has it together and especially the second half of the year.

I would agree since winning his 3rd world title he seems to have to warm to the season, I think that was always a goal for him to emulate Senna which he then achieved. I think he starts the season perhaps a bit too relaxed whilst Bottas is perhaps biting at the bit and beat Hamilton away from the start, he always needs some kind of wake up call.

I agree too. Based on his comments, I think Bottas came into this season guns blazing pushing himself harder than he ever has before. I didn't think he had it in him, but he's charging hard because if he doesn't have a significant advantage over Lewis, he is quickly relegated to #2. Once Hamilton gets going he doesn't stop so it will be interesting to see how consistent Bottas can deliver podiums early in the season.

I think it very much depends on the car, with a dominant car things are so much easier, will Mercedes maintain the same level of performance, I doubt it?

According to Joylon he is back: https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/47623639

Must admit never believe anything this guy says, he often comes across bitter that he failed in F1...

Has Bottas lost his 'Wing Man' role. Well after one race, I doubt it, but at least he seems to be back on form. What Mercedes and Lewis needs is to be aiming for 1-2's each race, maximising the constructors points and stopping the other drivers scoring lots of points for the drivers.

Lewis has always had an issue with starts, he seemed to have overcome this last season, but lets hope he can fix this again. Even so, I think he will beat Bottas more often than not. But only time will tell, way to early making predictions after one race - gotta love all the pundits jumping on the band wagon, and shouting from the rooftops lol.

Swiss1 wrote:According to Joylon he is back: https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/47623639

Must admit never believe anything this guy says, he often comes across bitter that he failed in F1...

Has Bottas lost his 'Wing Man' role. Well after one race, I doubt it, but at least he seems to be back on form. What Mercedes and Lewis needs is to be aiming for 1-2's each race, maximising the constructors points and stopping the other drivers scoring lots of points for the drivers.

Lewis has always had an issue with starts, he seemed to have overcome this last season, but lets hope he can fix this again. Even so, I think he will beat Bottas more often than not. But only time will tell, way to early making predictions after one race - gotta love all the pundits jumping on the band wagon, and shouting from the rooftops lol.

I see it as being no different than the last 2 seasons, Bottas always starts strong, he got 2 contract extensions on the back of it.

I’m sure he will try and capitalise on his win in Australia but I can’t seeLewis giving him such an easy time again. With a car at least on equal pegging Lewis’s race craft will show through and Bottas will find his true place in the pecking order. Then there will be Ferrari and Red Bull to contend with. I hope he enjoys the plaudits while they last.

pokerman wrote:

Swiss1 wrote:According to Joylon he is back: https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/47623639

Must admit never believe anything this guy says, he often comes across bitter that he failed in F1...

Has Bottas lost his 'Wing Man' role. Well after one race, I doubt it, but at least he seems to be back on form. What Mercedes and Lewis needs is to be aiming for 1-2's each race, maximising the constructors points and stopping the other drivers scoring lots of points for the drivers.

Lewis has always had an issue with starts, he seemed to have overcome this last season, but lets hope he can fix this again. Even so, I think he will beat Bottas more often than not. But only time will tell, way to early making predictions after one race - gotta love all the pundits jumping on the band wagon, and shouting from the rooftops lol.

I see it as being no different than the last 2 seasons, Bottas always starts strong, he got 2 contract extensions on the back of it.

There are a fair few differences with his personality compared to the last 2 years. Far more aggressive. I see an improvement to the start of the last 2 seasons, but yes, it is just 1 race.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... jpIZ8.html

Yet more about Bottas and will Buxton seeing a change in him. I feel that he really is going to manage a better result this year. I mean i was reasonably confident he would remain at this team next year anyway, but I think he will be able to do more than enough personally. The problem will be if the other teams are much closer than last year. But even then, if Bottas's pace remains as it was last race, i doubt that would put Mercedes off keeping him.

TheGiantHogweed wrote:https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... jpIZ8.html

Yet more about Bottas and will Buxton seeing a change in him. I feel that he really is going to manage a better result this year. I mean i was reasonably confident he would remain at this team next year anyway, but I think he will be able to do more than enough personally. The problem will be if the other teams are much closer than last year. But even then, if Bottas's pace remains as it was last race, i doubt that would put Mercedes off keeping him.

I think you're getting over excited. All he's done so far is get a better start than Hamilton in a race of two. Let's see what happens if and when he is outpaced by Hamilton. Will his head go down or not.

mikeyg123 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... jpIZ8.html

Yet more about Bottas and will Buxton seeing a change in him. I feel that he really is going to manage a better result this year. I mean i was reasonably confident he would remain at this team next year anyway, but I think he will be able to do more than enough personally. The problem will be if the other teams are much closer than last year. But even then, if Bottas's pace remains as it was last race, i doubt that would put Mercedes off keeping him.

I think you're getting over excited. All he's done so far is get a better start than Hamilton in a race of two. Let's see what happens if and when he is outpaced by Hamilton. Will his head go down or not.

Well, there are a fair few other articles which have gone in to much more detail as to why they think Bottas has changed. It isn't just me that thinks things are different. I wouldn't have made as bigger deal if it wasn't for these. And I'm not suggesting he's going to beat Hamilton, I'm just thinking he's going to be able to convince Mercedes to keep him. And from what Wolf said, last race was pretty much the best he's ever seen from Bottas.

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... jpIZ8.html

Yet more about Bottas and will Buxton seeing a change in him. I feel that he really is going to manage a better result this year. I mean i was reasonably confident he would remain at this team next year anyway, but I think he will be able to do more than enough personally. The problem will be if the other teams are much closer than last year. But even then, if Bottas's pace remains as it was last race, i doubt that would put Mercedes off keeping him.

I think you're getting over excited. All he's done so far is get a better start than Hamilton in a race of two. Let's see what happens if and when he is outpaced by Hamilton. Will his head go down or not.

Well, there are a fair few other articles which have gone in to much more detail as to why they think Bottas has changed. It isn't just me that thinks things are different. I wouldn't have made as bigger deal if it wasn't for these. And I'm not suggesting he's going to beat Hamilton, I'm just thinking he's going to be able to convince Mercedes to keep him. And from what Wolf said, last race was pretty much the best he's ever seen from Bottas.

Not saying it's not true, but I don't think you can take a manager giving praise to his driver as evidence of anything. Of course he's going to want to keep him motivated. And it's pretty much Wolff's stock in trade. Barely a week went by last year without him saying the same about Hamilton.

I'm with those who say that it's a bit premature to make any pronouncements after one race. I hope it's true but let's wait a few weekends before passing judgement.

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... jpIZ8.html

Yet more about Bottas and will Buxton seeing a change in him. I feel that he really is going to manage a better result this year. I mean i was reasonably confident he would remain at this team next year anyway, but I think he will be able to do more than enough personally. The problem will be if the other teams are much closer than last year. But even then, if Bottas's pace remains as it was last race, i doubt that would put Mercedes off keeping him.

I think you're getting over excited. All he's done so far is get a better start than Hamilton in a race of two. Let's see what happens if and when he is outpaced by Hamilton. Will his head go down or not.

Well, there are a fair few other articles which have gone in to much more detail as to why they think Bottas has changed. It isn't just me that thinks things are different. I wouldn't have made as bigger deal if it wasn't for these. And I'm not suggesting he's going to beat Hamilton, I'm just thinking he's going to be able to convince Mercedes to keep him. And from what Wolf said, last race was pretty much the best he's ever seen from Bottas.

I think he will have a tough job. The last two years he convinced Merc to resign him and then fell off a cliff. Fool me once etc....

mikeyg123 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... jpIZ8.html

Yet more about Bottas and will Buxton seeing a change in him. I feel that he really is going to manage a better result this year. I mean i was reasonably confident he would remain at this team next year anyway, but I think he will be able to do more than enough personally. The problem will be if the other teams are much closer than last year. But even then, if Bottas's pace remains as it was last race, i doubt that would put Mercedes off keeping him.

I think you're getting over excited. All he's done so far is get a better start than Hamilton in a race of two. Let's see what happens if and when he is outpaced by Hamilton. Will his head go down or not.

Well, there are a fair few other articles which have gone in to much more detail as to why they think Bottas has changed. It isn't just me that thinks things are different. I wouldn't have made as bigger deal if it wasn't for these. And I'm not suggesting he's going to beat Hamilton, I'm just thinking he's going to be able to convince Mercedes to keep him. And from what Wolf said, last race was pretty much the best he's ever seen from Bottas.

I think he will have a tough job. The last two years he convinced Merc to resign him and then fell off a cliff. Fool me once etc....

Indeed and I saw something amusing in respect to that

Meet the new Bottas
Same as the old Bottas

We don't get fooled again
Don't want to get fooled again
No. no!

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... jpIZ8.html

Yet more about Bottas and will Buxton seeing a change in him. I feel that he really is going to manage a better result this year. I mean i was reasonably confident he would remain at this team next year anyway, but I think he will be able to do more than enough personally. The problem will be if the other teams are much closer than last year. But even then, if Bottas's pace remains as it was last race, i doubt that would put Mercedes off keeping him.

I think you're getting over excited. All he's done so far is get a better start than Hamilton in a race of two. Let's see what happens if and when he is outpaced by Hamilton. Will his head go down or not.

Well, there are a fair few other articles which have gone in to much more detail as to why they think Bottas has changed. It isn't just me that thinks things are different. I wouldn't have made as bigger deal if it wasn't for these. And I'm not suggesting he's going to beat Hamilton, I'm just thinking he's going to be able to convince Mercedes to keep him. And from what Wolf said, last race was pretty much the best he's ever seen from Bottas.

I think he will have a tough job. The last two years he convinced Merc to resign him and then fell off a cliff. Fool me once etc....

Indeed and I saw something amusing in respect to that

Meet the new Bottas
Same as the old Bottas

We don't get fooled again
Don't want to get fooled again
No. no!

mikeyg123 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... jpIZ8.html

Yet more about Bottas and will Buxton seeing a change in him. I feel that he really is going to manage a better result this year. I mean i was reasonably confident he would remain at this team next year anyway, but I think he will be able to do more than enough personally. The problem will be if the other teams are much closer than last year. But even then, if Bottas's pace remains as it was last race, i doubt that would put Mercedes off keeping him.

I think you're getting over excited. All he's done so far is get a better start than Hamilton in a race of two. Let's see what happens if and when he is outpaced by Hamilton. Will his head go down or not.

Well, there are a fair few other articles which have gone in to much more detail as to why they think Bottas has changed. It isn't just me that thinks things are different. I wouldn't have made as bigger deal if it wasn't for these. And I'm not suggesting he's going to beat Hamilton, I'm just thinking he's going to be able to convince Mercedes to keep him. And from what Wolf said, last race was pretty much the best he's ever seen from Bottas.

I think he will have a tough job. The last two years he convinced Merc to resign him and then fell off a cliff. Fool me once etc....

Given the time he got signed last year was for this season, and for an option in 2020, i see it as likely that he will continue with this team next year as it was him getting a new contract last year, if not more so. If he does a decent job and Mercedes get the championship, what is the point in bringing a new driver into the team?

I may be wrong, but i think it is more likely than not that Bottas will remain.

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... jpIZ8.html

Yet more about Bottas and will Buxton seeing a change in him. I feel that he really is going to manage a better result this year. I mean i was reasonably confident he would remain at this team next year anyway, but I think he will be able to do more than enough personally. The problem will be if the other teams are much closer than last year. But even then, if Bottas's pace remains as it was last race, i doubt that would put Mercedes off keeping him.

I think you're getting over excited. All he's done so far is get a better start than Hamilton in a race of two. Let's see what happens if and when he is outpaced by Hamilton. Will his head go down or not.

Well, there are a fair few other articles which have gone in to much more detail as to why they think Bottas has changed. It isn't just me that thinks things are different. I wouldn't have made as bigger deal if it wasn't for these. And I'm not suggesting he's going to beat Hamilton, I'm just thinking he's going to be able to convince Mercedes to keep him. And from what Wolf said, last race was pretty much the best he's ever seen from Bottas.

I think he will have a tough job. The last two years he convinced Merc to resign him and then fell off a cliff. Fool me once etc....

Given the time he got signed last year was for this season, and for an option in 2020, i see it as likely that he will continue with this team next year as it was him getting a new contract last year, if not more so. If he does a decent job and Mercedes get the championship, what is the point in bringing a new driver into the team?

I may be wrong, but i think it is more likely than not that Bottas will remain.

I think he will basically have to match Hamilton to stay. Ocon is just to tempting a prospect.

mikeyg123 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:
I think you're getting over excited. All he's done so far is get a better start than Hamilton in a race of two. Let's see what happens if and when he is outpaced by Hamilton. Will his head go down or not.

Well, there are a fair few other articles which have gone in to much more detail as to why they think Bottas has changed. It isn't just me that thinks things are different. I wouldn't have made as bigger deal if it wasn't for these. And I'm not suggesting he's going to beat Hamilton, I'm just thinking he's going to be able to convince Mercedes to keep him. And from what Wolf said, last race was pretty much the best he's ever seen from Bottas.

I think he will have a tough job. The last two years he convinced Merc to resign him and then fell off a cliff. Fool me once etc....

Given the time he got signed last year was for this season, and for an option in 2020, i see it as likely that he will continue with this team next year as it was him getting a new contract last year, if not more so. If he does a decent job and Mercedes get the championship, what is the point in bringing a new driver into the team?

I may be wrong, but i think it is more likely than not that Bottas will remain.

I think he will basically have to match Hamilton to stay. Ocon is just to tempting a prospect.

Oh well, we can have different opinions. But I don't see why they would risk giving Ocon a chance (even if it is unfair) if Bottas does enough to get them the championship comfortably. Introducing Ocon could well upset things to begin with or he may take time to get used to the team. All would be unnecessary if the team get a similar result to last year. But yes, give it more time. But I certainly don't agree that Bottas would need to pretty much match Hamilton to have a chance to stay. As I don't know what evidence there is to suggest Ocon is better and with the 3 years experience Bottas will have, that will be another advantage of keeping Bottas.

Their feeling will be that Hamilton won't go on forever he's 34 now. Time to start considering replacements. Verstappen's on a long term deal and Vettel isn't much younger than Hamilton. There must be a reason why Merc wouldn't release Ocon.

mikeyg123 wrote:Their feeling will be that Hamilton won't go on forever he's 34 now. Time to start considering replacements. Verstappen's on a long term deal and Vettel isn't much younger than Hamilton. There must be a reason why Merc wouldn't release Ocon.

So what was this "a new one-year deal with the team, with an option to continue in 2020" ?

https://www.racefans.net/2018/07/20/mer ... season-f1/

I know it is up to the team, but that to me makes it look a fair bit more likely that they will keep him for more than 1 more season than it did last time they gave him a new contract. Even with Ocon waiting there. But I do agree that if he repeats what happened the last 2 years, then it is likely Ocon will get it. But if he comfortably helps the team win the championship, i just don't see why Mercedes would risk a change. Even if they tried to hold on to Ocon.

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:Their feeling will be that Hamilton won't go on forever he's 34 now. Time to start considering replacements. Verstappen's on a long term deal and Vettel isn't much younger than Hamilton. There must be a reason why Merc wouldn't release Ocon.

So what was this "a new one-year deal with the team, with an option to continue in 2020" ?

https://www.racefans.net/2018/07/20/mer ... season-f1/

I know it is up to the team, but that to me makes it look a fair bit more likely that they will keep him for more than 1 more season than it did last time they gave him a new contract. Even with Ocon waiting there. But I do agree that if he repeats what happened the last 2 years, then it is likely Ocon will get it. But if he comfortably helps the team win the championship, i just don't see why Mercedes would risk a change. Even if they tried to hold on to Ocon.

It mean's exactly what it says. They signed him on a one year deal and have already agreed terms if the team decides to extend. I don't really see how that helps Bottas much. It was also a deal made before Ocon lost his drive. Things have changed now.

mikeyg123 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote: Well, there are a fair few other articles which have gone in to much more detail as to why they think Bottas has changed. It isn't just me that thinks things are different. I wouldn't have made as bigger deal if it wasn't for these. And I'm not suggesting he's going to beat Hamilton, I'm just thinking he's going to be able to convince Mercedes to keep him. And from what Wolf said, last race was pretty much the best he's ever seen from Bottas.

I think he will have a tough job. The last two years he convinced Merc to resign him and then fell off a cliff. Fool me once etc....

Given the time he got signed last year was for this season, and for an option in 2020, i see it as likely that he will continue with this team next year as it was him getting a new contract last year, if not more so. If he does a decent job and Mercedes get the championship, what is the point in bringing a new driver into the team?

I may be wrong, but i think it is more likely than not that Bottas will remain.

I think he will basically have to match Hamilton to stay. Ocon is just to tempting a prospect.

I don't agree with this. I don't see how they could expect Valteri to match Hamilton and I don't think they would expect that of Ocon either. Honestly, Esteban didn't really do himself many favors with his performance last year. I thought he was better than Perez overall despite losing to him in the points but he failed to stamp home the point. Considering the fact that he had two years to do it and Perez is basically pegged as a strong midfield driver; I don't think there is much reason to view Ocon as another Max or Charles.

For me, Valteri is off to the ideal start if he wants to retain his seat. The biggest thing Mercedes needed to see was that he can actually make things happen in a race. I remember last year he got stuck behind Max for basically the whole race in Italy despite clearly having the car advantage on the day. In Bahrain this year, we saw Valteri attack Max around the outside of turn 3 and really make an excellent pass. That type of aggression and decisiveness is what they needed to see from him and he seems to have it at the moment.

On a side note, I remember Max making some disrespectful comments about Bottas after the race in Italy last year and I'm happy that Valteri got back at him for that.

sandman1347 wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote: Well, there are a fair few other articles which have gone in to much more detail as to why they think Bottas has changed. It isn't just me that thinks things are different. I wouldn't have made as bigger deal if it wasn't for these. And I'm not suggesting he's going to beat Hamilton, I'm just thinking he's going to be able to convince Mercedes to keep him. And from what Wolf said, last race was pretty much the best he's ever seen from Bottas.

I think he will have a tough job. The last two years he convinced Merc to resign him and then fell off a cliff. Fool me once etc....

Given the time he got signed last year was for this season, and for an option in 2020, i see it as likely that he will continue with this team next year as it was him getting a new contract last year, if not more so. If he does a decent job and Mercedes get the championship, what is the point in bringing a new driver into the team?

I may be wrong, but i think it is more likely than not that Bottas will remain.

I think he will basically have to match Hamilton to stay. Ocon is just to tempting a prospect.

I don't agree with this. I don't see how they could expect Valteri to match Hamilton and I don't think they would expect that of Ocon either. Honestly, Esteban didn't really do himself many favors with his performance last year. I thought he was better than Perez overall despite losing to him in the points but he failed to stamp home the point. Considering the fact that he had two years to do it and Perez is basically pegged as a strong midfield driver; I don't think there is much reason to view Ocon as another Max or Charles.

For me, Valteri is off to the ideal start if he wants to retain his seat. The biggest thing Mercedes needed to see was that he can actually make things happen in a race. I remember last year he got stuck behind Max for basically the whole race in Italy despite clearly having the car advantage on the day. In Bahrain this year, we saw Valteri attack Max around the outside of turn 3 and really make an excellent pass. That type of aggression and decisiveness is what they needed to see from him and he seems to have it at the moment.

On a side note, I remember Max making some disrespectful comments about Bottas after the race in Italy last year and I'm happy that Valteri got back at him for that.

I don't think Mercedes expect it. Looking better than Perez is a pretty good start. Enough to suggest he has a pretty high ceiling.

sandman1347 wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote: Well, there are a fair few other articles which have gone in to much more detail as to why they think Bottas has changed. It isn't just me that thinks things are different. I wouldn't have made as bigger deal if it wasn't for these. And I'm not suggesting he's going to beat Hamilton, I'm just thinking he's going to be able to convince Mercedes to keep him. And from what Wolf said, last race was pretty much the best he's ever seen from Bottas.

I think he will have a tough job. The last two years he convinced Merc to resign him and then fell off a cliff. Fool me once etc....

Given the time he got signed last year was for this season, and for an option in 2020, i see it as likely that he will continue with this team next year as it was him getting a new contract last year, if not more so. If he does a decent job and Mercedes get the championship, what is the point in bringing a new driver into the team?

I may be wrong, but i think it is more likely than not that Bottas will remain.

I think he will basically have to match Hamilton to stay. Ocon is just to tempting a prospect.

I don't agree with this. I don't see how they could expect Valteri to match Hamilton and I don't think they would expect that of Ocon either. Honestly, Esteban didn't really do himself many favors with his performance last year. I thought he was better than Perez overall despite losing to him in the points but he failed to stamp home the point. Considering the fact that he had two years to do it and Perez is basically pegged as a strong midfield driver; I don't think there is much reason to view Ocon as another Max or Charles.

For me, Valteri is off to the ideal start if he wants to retain his seat. The biggest thing Mercedes needed to see was that he can actually make things happen in a race. I remember last year he got stuck behind Max for basically the whole race in Italy despite clearly having the car advantage on the day. In Bahrain this year, we saw Valteri attack Max around the outside of turn 3 and really make an excellent pass. That type of aggression and decisiveness is what they needed to see from him and he seems to have it at the moment.

On a side note, I remember Max making some disrespectful comments about Bottas after the race in Italy last year and I'm happy that Valteri got back at him for that.

As I mentioned in another thread, I think it is Bottas's aggression and change in approach to things that has helped him a bit this year. His starts have both been good and he is far less cautious than he used to be. He looks to take some very good opportunities in the first few corners. Admittedly he soon did loose out to Hamilton last race on the first lap, but I think that was due to a mistake rather than a lack of defence.

Relating to what I mentioned yesterday, It does seem that racefans.net say that Bottas was effected throughout the majority of the race by this bit of plastic. Said in both in the video and the article on this page:
https://www.racefans.net/2019/04/04/201 ... nt-4061050
I believe it could possibly have been their earlier, but perhaps only visible in the closing stages. Due the the wind and speed the car goes, given it is loose, it could have moved about a bit. It may explain Bottas's a bit of his lack of pace, but weather it is actually true that it effected him much, we just don't know. But if it did effect him throughout most of the race, i don't think it was ridiculous to compare it to what happened to Hamilton last weekend, even if it didn't effect him as much. I just thought it was a coincidence that that both had some issue these 2 weekends and I don't think it reflects much on how things may continue yet.

But I expect that if he even finishes behind Hamilton most races, Mercedes would still likely keep him. So long as most of the time he doesn't end up allowing several cars finish between himself and Hamilton. But I just don't see how introducing Ocon would even guarantee to be any better than how Bottas was in the 2nd half of last season. Given he won't have the experience Bottas has (at mercedes or other teams), it could possibly be a tough start. If Bottas continues close to how he has been so far throughout most of the season, I think it is very likely to be him who gets the 2020 seat. That would be really unfortunate for Ocon who certainly deserves a seat in F1. But things are just like this sometimes. But Hamilton and Bottas are excellent team mates and I think this lineup just works - at the moment. When Bottas has his weak points at the end of the season, he has helped Hamilton massively in several races. Having Bottas help Hamilton get the win could sometimes end up getting more points for the team than him finishing closer, but without helping. I hope his form won't drop half way through the season this time though. I just hope he has a bit of good luck and won't loose his motivation somewhat like he did last year.

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Given the time he got signed last year was for this season, and for an option in 2020, i see it as likely that he will continue with this team next year as it was him getting a new contract last year, if not more so. If he does a decent job and Mercedes get the championship, what is the point in bringing a new driver into the team?

I may be wrong, but i think it is more likely than not that Bottas will remain.

I think he will basically have to match Hamilton to stay. Ocon is just to tempting a prospect.

I don't agree with this. I don't see how they could expect Valteri to match Hamilton and I don't think they would expect that of Ocon either. Honestly, Esteban didn't really do himself many favors with his performance last year. I thought he was better than Perez overall despite losing to him in the points but he failed to stamp home the point. Considering the fact that he had two years to do it and Perez is basically pegged as a strong midfield driver; I don't think there is much reason to view Ocon as another Max or Charles.

For me, Valteri is off to the ideal start if he wants to retain his seat. The biggest thing Mercedes needed to see was that he can actually make things happen in a race. I remember last year he got stuck behind Max for basically the whole race in Italy despite clearly having the car advantage on the day. In Bahrain this year, we saw Valteri attack Max around the outside of turn 3 and really make an excellent pass. That type of aggression and decisiveness is what they needed to see from him and he seems to have it at the moment.

On a side note, I remember Max making some disrespectful comments about Bottas after the race in Italy last year and I'm happy that Valteri got back at him for that.

As I mentioned in another thread, I think it is Bottas's aggression and change in approach to things that has helped him a bit this year. His starts have both been good and he is far less cautious than he used to be. He looks to take some very good opportunities in the first few corners. Admittedly he soon did loose out to Hamilton last race on the first lap, but I think that was due to a mistake rather than a lack of defence.

Relating to what I mentioned yesterday, It does seem that racefans.net say that Bottas was effected throughout the majority of the race by this bit of plastic. Said in both in the video and the article on this page:
https://www.racefans.net/2019/04/04/201 ... nt-4061050
I believe it could possibly have been their earlier, but perhaps only visible in the closing stages. Due the the wind and speed the car goes, given it is loose, it could have moved about a bit. It may explain Bottas's a bit of his lack of pace, but weather it is actually true that it effected him much, we just don't know. But if it did effect him throughout most of the race, i don't think it was ridiculous to compare it to what happened to Hamilton last weekend, even if it didn't effect him as much. I just thought it was a coincidence that that both had some issue these 2 weekends and I don't think it reflects much on how things may continue yet.

But I expect that if he even finishes behind Hamilton most races, Mercedes would still likely keep him. So long as most of the time he doesn't end up allowing several cars finish between himself and Hamilton. But I just don't see how introducing Ocon would even guarantee to be any better than how Bottas was in the 2nd half of last season. Given he won't have the experience Bottas has (at mercedes or other teams), it could possibly be a tough start. If Bottas continues close to how he has been so far throughout most of the season, I think it is very likely to be him who gets the 2020 seat. That would be really unfortunate for Ocon who certainly deserves a seat in F1. But things are just like this sometimes. But Hamilton and Bottas are excellent team mates and I think this lineup just works - at the moment. When Bottas has his weak points at the end of the season, he has helped Hamilton massively in several races. Having Bottas help Hamilton get the win could sometimes end up getting more points for the team than him finishing closer, but without helping. I hope his form won't drop half way through the season this time though. I just hope he has a bit of good luck and won't loose his motivation somewhat like he did last year.

Honestly you do this to yourself every year. You are going to be disappointed if you expect Valteri to actually challenge Lewis for the whole season consistently. These early races are basically his strongest time of the year relative to Lewis (other than Russia of course). When things move to Europe it will be very difficult for Valteri to keep pace. You can think what you want to about the plastic bag but I think their time as teammates has made it very clear that for Valteri to beat Lewis in a 21 races season would be extremely unlikely.

I do agree with you that he is performing excellently this year and I also agree that the pairing has performed superbly together. They have delivered both titles in back to back years together against a formidable opponent in Ferrari and Vettel/Raikkonen so I don't see the need to rock the boat. That said; I think you are playing up Valteri "helping Lewis massively" a bit too much. I don't think Lewis needed Valteri at all last year and the team orders were actually not necessary (but still understandable in a championship fight).

On a side note, I also don't see this idea that Mercedes will view Ocon as a replacement for Hamilton as even remotely viable. They will go after Max or perhaps another young driver if they look very promising (maybe Lando or George; depending on how things go). I just don't think they will see Ocon as anything other than a replacement for Bottas if Valteri doesn't perform to expectations but I think Valteri is doing enough to get another year.

sandman1347 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Given the time he got signed last year was for this season, and for an option in 2020, i see it as likely that he will continue with this team next year as it was him getting a new contract last year, if not more so. If he does a decent job and Mercedes get the championship, what is the point in bringing a new driver into the team?

I may be wrong, but i think it is more likely than not that Bottas will remain.

I think he will basically have to match Hamilton to stay. Ocon is just to tempting a prospect.

I don't agree with this. I don't see how they could expect Valteri to match Hamilton and I don't think they would expect that of Ocon either. Honestly, Esteban didn't really do himself many favors with his performance last year. I thought he was better than Perez overall despite losing to him in the points but he failed to stamp home the point. Considering the fact that he had two years to do it and Perez is basically pegged as a strong midfield driver; I don't think there is much reason to view Ocon as another Max or Charles.

For me, Valteri is off to the ideal start if he wants to retain his seat. The biggest thing Mercedes needed to see was that he can actually make things happen in a race. I remember last year he got stuck behind Max for basically the whole race in Italy despite clearly having the car advantage on the day. In Bahrain this year, we saw Valteri attack Max around the outside of turn 3 and really make an excellent pass. That type of aggression and decisiveness is what they needed to see from him and he seems to have it at the moment.

On a side note, I remember Max making some disrespectful comments about Bottas after the race in Italy last year and I'm happy that Valteri got back at him for that.

As I mentioned in another thread, I think it is Bottas's aggression and change in approach to things that has helped him a bit this year. His starts have both been good and he is far less cautious than he used to be. He looks to take some very good opportunities in the first few corners. Admittedly he soon did loose out to Hamilton last race on the first lap, but I think that was due to a mistake rather than a lack of defence.

Relating to what I mentioned yesterday, It does seem that racefans.net say that Bottas was effected throughout the majority of the race by this bit of plastic. Said in both in the video and the article on this page:
https://www.racefans.net/2019/04/04/201 ... nt-4061050
I believe it could possibly have been their earlier, but perhaps only visible in the closing stages. Due the the wind and speed the car goes, given it is loose, it could have moved about a bit. It may explain Bottas's a bit of his lack of pace, but weather it is actually true that it effected him much, we just don't know. But if it did effect him throughout most of the race, i don't think it was ridiculous to compare it to what happened to Hamilton last weekend, even if it didn't effect him as much. I just thought it was a coincidence that that both had some issue these 2 weekends and I don't think it reflects much on how things may continue yet.

But I expect that if he even finishes behind Hamilton most races, Mercedes would still likely keep him. So long as most of the time he doesn't end up allowing several cars finish between himself and Hamilton. But I just don't see how introducing Ocon would even guarantee to be any better than how Bottas was in the 2nd half of last season. Given he won't have the experience Bottas has (at mercedes or other teams), it could possibly be a tough start. If Bottas continues close to how he has been so far throughout most of the season, I think it is very likely to be him who gets the 2020 seat. That would be really unfortunate for Ocon who certainly deserves a seat in F1. But things are just like this sometimes. But Hamilton and Bottas are excellent team mates and I think this lineup just works - at the moment. When Bottas has his weak points at the end of the season, he has helped Hamilton massively in several races. Having Bottas help Hamilton get the win could sometimes end up getting more points for the team than him finishing closer, but without helping. I hope his form won't drop half way through the season this time though. I just hope he has a bit of good luck and won't loose his motivation somewhat like he did last year.

Honestly you do this to yourself every year. You are going to be disappointed if you expect Valteri to actually challenge Lewis for the whole season consistently. These early races are basically his strongest time of the year relative to Lewis (other than Russia of course). When things move to Europe it will be very difficult for Valteri to keep pace. You can think what you want to about the plastic bag but I think their time as teammates has made it very clear that for Valteri to beat Lewis in a 21 races season would be extremely unlikely.

I do agree with you that he is performing excellently this year and I also agree that the pairing has performed superbly together. They have delivered both titles in back to back years together against a formidable opponent in Ferrari and Vettel/Raikkonen so I don't see the need to rock the boat. That said; I think you are playing up Valteri "helping Lewis massively" a bit too much. I don't think Lewis needed Valteri at all last year and the team orders were actually not necessary (but still understandable in a championship fight).

On a side note, I also don't see this idea that Mercedes will view Ocon as a replacement for Hamilton as even remotely viable. They will go after Max or perhaps another young driver if they look very promising (maybe Lando or George; depending on how things go). I just don't think they will see Ocon as anything other than a replacement for Bottas if Valteri doesn't perform to expectations but I think Valteri is doing enough to get another year.

I don't know where you are reading from what I have put in this post that I'm actually expecting Bottas to match Hamilton. I think it is certainly very unlikely. But I thought i implied that i wasn't sure that he would be able to manage it. He's dropped off the last couple of seasons, but you can't be certain that will always happen. But of course it may happen again. I mayby shouldn't have said he helped hamilton massively, but I do think his off performances that resulted in him helping Hamilton, did possibly help the team once or twice. I thought there were one or two races that Hamilton was helped towards a win a bit by Bottas holding others up.

sandman1347 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Given the time he got signed last year was for this season, and for an option in 2020, i see it as likely that he will continue with this team next year as it was him getting a new contract last year, if not more so. If he does a decent job and Mercedes get the championship, what is the point in bringing a new driver into the team?

I may be wrong, but i think it is more likely than not that Bottas will remain.

I think he will basically have to match Hamilton to stay. Ocon is just to tempting a prospect.

I don't agree with this. I don't see how they could expect Valteri to match Hamilton and I don't think they would expect that of Ocon either. Honestly, Esteban didn't really do himself many favors with his performance last year. I thought he was better than Perez overall despite losing to him in the points but he failed to stamp home the point. Considering the fact that he had two years to do it and Perez is basically pegged as a strong midfield driver; I don't think there is much reason to view Ocon as another Max or Charles.

For me, Valteri is off to the ideal start if he wants to retain his seat. The biggest thing Mercedes needed to see was that he can actually make things happen in a race. I remember last year he got stuck behind Max for basically the whole race in Italy despite clearly having the car advantage on the day. In Bahrain this year, we saw Valteri attack Max around the outside of turn 3 and really make an excellent pass. That type of aggression and decisiveness is what they needed to see from him and he seems to have it at the moment.

On a side note, I remember Max making some disrespectful comments about Bottas after the race in Italy last year and I'm happy that Valteri got back at him for that.

As I mentioned in another thread, I think it is Bottas's aggression and change in approach to things that has helped him a bit this year. His starts have both been good and he is far less cautious than he used to be. He looks to take some very good opportunities in the first few corners. Admittedly he soon did loose out to Hamilton last race on the first lap, but I think that was due to a mistake rather than a lack of defence.

Relating to what I mentioned yesterday, It does seem that racefans.net say that Bottas was effected throughout the majority of the race by this bit of plastic. Said in both in the video and the article on this page:
https://www.racefans.net/2019/04/04/201 ... nt-4061050
I believe it could possibly have been their earlier, but perhaps only visible in the closing stages. Due the the wind and speed the car goes, given it is loose, it could have moved about a bit. It may explain Bottas's a bit of his lack of pace, but weather it is actually true that it effected him much, we just don't know. But if it did effect him throughout most of the race, i don't think it was ridiculous to compare it to what happened to Hamilton last weekend, even if it didn't effect him as much. I just thought it was a coincidence that that both had some issue these 2 weekends and I don't think it reflects much on how things may continue yet.

But I expect that if he even finishes behind Hamilton most races, Mercedes would still likely keep him. So long as most of the time he doesn't end up allowing several cars finish between himself and Hamilton. But I just don't see how introducing Ocon would even guarantee to be any better than how Bottas was in the 2nd half of last season. Given he won't have the experience Bottas has (at mercedes or other teams), it could possibly be a tough start. If Bottas continues close to how he has been so far throughout most of the season, I think it is very likely to be him who gets the 2020 seat. That would be really unfortunate for Ocon who certainly deserves a seat in F1. But things are just like this sometimes. But Hamilton and Bottas are excellent team mates and I think this lineup just works - at the moment. When Bottas has his weak points at the end of the season, he has helped Hamilton massively in several races. Having Bottas help Hamilton get the win could sometimes end up getting more points for the team than him finishing closer, but without helping. I hope his form won't drop half way through the season this time though. I just hope he has a bit of good luck and won't loose his motivation somewhat like he did last year.

Honestly you do this to yourself every year. You are going to be disappointed if you expect Valteri to actually challenge Lewis for the whole season consistently. These early races are basically his strongest time of the year relative to Lewis (other than Russia of course). When things move to Europe it will be very difficult for Valteri to keep pace. You can think what you want to about the plastic bag but I think their time as teammates has made it very clear that for Valteri to beat Lewis in a 21 races season would be extremely unlikely.

I do agree with you that he is performing excellently this year and I also agree that the pairing has performed superbly together. They have delivered both titles in back to back years together against a formidable opponent in Ferrari and Vettel/Raikkonen so I don't see the need to rock the boat. That said; I think you are playing up Valteri "helping Lewis massively" a bit too much. I don't think Lewis needed Valteri at all last year and the team orders were actually not necessary (but still understandable in a championship fight).

On a side note, I also don't see this idea that Mercedes will view Ocon as a replacement for Hamilton as even remotely viable. They will go after Max or perhaps another young driver if they look very promising (maybe Lando or George; depending on how things go). I just don't think they will see Ocon as anything other than a replacement for Bottas if Valteri doesn't perform to expectations but I think Valteri is doing enough to get another year.

I agree Ocon may end up replacing Bottas but he's no replacement for Hamilton.

If they can't get Verstappen who would be?

If RedBull dont deliver Max will leave of his own accord.

Another season and it looks like he wont have a chance at a WDC, how many more is he going to wait realistically?

stevey wrote:If RedBull dont deliver Max will leave of his own accord.

Another season and it looks like he wont have a chance at a WDC, how many more is he going to wait realistically?

Well Merc isn't going in for him for 2020 so at least one more. What if Lewis retires with Max under contract?

pokerman wrote: I agree Ocon may end up replacing Bottas but he's no replacement for Hamilton.

Well, Charles Russell from Williams was fastest on day 2 in Bahrain testing when he was put in the Merc W10. Since Williams uses Merc engines, they may want him if he keeps showing speed when given something better than the Williams. Remember that Valtteri himself was picked from Williams when Merc needed a replacement for Nico. Seems to me that the replacement of Valtteri now is a choice between Ocon and Russell. Of course that could change at any time.

It depends on Bottas' attitude.

If he ever wants to win the World Championship, then this year is his best chance and to do that he has to beat Hamilton. He is in the team that has dominated F1 for several years and he is currently leading the World Championship.

Bottas not only has to get under Hamilton's skin, but do it within the same team. If Mercedes are dominant this year, that might be less difficult, as the team could afford to freely let them race. If Ferrari are successful and competitive, they have 2 good drivers this year and that could put the Championships at risk. In those circumstances, it is more difficult for Bottas to succeed.
Though Ferrari have more history of team orders, Leclerc has an easier task than Bottas.

babararacucudada wrote:It depends on Bottas' attitude.

If he ever wants to win the World Championship, then this year is his best chance and to do that he has to beat Hamilton. He is in the team that has dominated F1 for several years and he is currently leading the World Championship.

Bottas not only has to get under Hamilton's skin, but do it within the same team. If Mercedes are dominant this year, that might be less difficult, as the team could afford to freely let them race. If Ferrari are successful and competitive, they have 2 good drivers this year and that could put the Championships at risk. In those circumstances, it is more difficult for Bottas to succeed.
Though Ferrari have more history of team orders, Leclerc has an easier task than Bottas.

I think you are about right. Charles has shown that he can match Seb in a healthy car this year. He challenged Seb at Melbourne, out-qualified and passed him in Bahrain. Charles has a reasonable claim to equal treatment in the team where Valtteri has not dominated Lewis (in a healthy car) this year. Mercedes will be looking to maximize Lewis results. Ferrari may be getting tired of supporting Vettel with no championship to show for it.

I don't see Bottas as being one who will or can "get under Hamilton's skin". I don't recall him trying to advance his own cause while risking the results for the team as Nico did. He will race Lewis very cleanly and probably not try any over the top passes that could hurt team results.

mikeyg123 wrote:If they can't get Verstappen who would be?

First all all we don't know when Hamilton is going to retire so how can we even predict what the landscape is going to be when that time comes?

mikeyg123 wrote:

stevey wrote:If RedBull dont deliver Max will leave of his own accord.

Another season and it looks like he wont have a chance at a WDC, how many more is he going to wait realistically?

Well Merc isn't going in for him for 2020 so at least one more. What if Lewis retires with Max under contract?

If Lewis retires before Max becomes available (and assuming Charles stays with Ferrari) I can see Mercedes either poaching Lando Norris or, if they are truly sold on him, promoting George Russel. Another possible stop-gap alternative would be signing Vettel or Ricciardo. Vettel might wash out at Ferrari and Ricciardo would cut off his own arm to drive either a Merc or a Ferrari.

babararacucudada wrote:It depends on Bottas' attitude.

If he ever wants to win the World Championship, then this year is his best chance and to do that he has to beat Hamilton. He is in the team that has dominated F1 for several years and he is currently leading the World Championship.

Bottas not only has to get under Hamilton's skin, but do it within the same team. If Mercedes are dominant this year, that might be less difficult, as the team could afford to freely let them race. If Ferrari are successful and competitive, they have 2 good drivers this year and that could put the Championships at risk. In those circumstances, it is more difficult for Bottas to succeed.
Though Ferrari have more history of team orders, Leclerc has an easier task than Bottas.

To get under Hamilton's skin means to do underhand things which I believe is not in Bottas' nature, after Bahrain talk of Mercedes possibly having a dominant car needs putting to bed, what we are left with is Bottas competing against drivers that are basically better than him, tough task.

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:If they can't get Verstappen who would be?

First all all we don't know when Hamilton is going to retire so how can we even predict what the landscape is going to be when that time comes?

We can't know. We can predict.

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:If they can't get Verstappen who would be?

First all all we don't know when Hamilton is going to retire so how can we even predict what the landscape is going to be when that time comes?

We can't know. We can predict.

In the short term, long term becomes more fuzzy.

Apparently Verstappen has a performance clause in his contract and could leave Red Bull at the end of this year, Hamilton and Verstappen at Mercedes against Vettel and Leclerc at Ferrari, wow.

pokerman wrote:Apparently Verstappen has a performance clause in his contract and could leave Red Bull at the end of this year, Hamilton and Verstappen at Mercedes against Vettel and Leclerc at Ferrari, wow.

Now that's the dream. Let's get all the best drivers in the best cars.

Bottas had better bounce back bigtime should RBR flounder badly this season.