Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

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Siao7
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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

Post by Siao7 »

They are making a point...

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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

Post by Junglist »

Siao7 wrote:They are making a point...
They should focus on the racing...


Mine wasn't as good as yours. I'll give myself an A+ for effort.

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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

Post by Siao7 »

Junglist wrote:
Siao7 wrote:They are making a point...
They should focus on the racing...


Mine wasn't as good as yours. I'll give myself an A+ for effort.
Not sure what you mean, but hey, get another A+ from me!

They are focusing on the racing, things like these behind the scenes happen all the time. And apparently FI started this by hitting on Haas first if you read the article

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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

Post by Blake »

It seems as though Haas has a valid point. FI saying that it feels a exemption is justified kind of reinforces the Haas claim. Perhaps the old FI should not have made the original Haas/Ferrari claim.
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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

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How petty and spiteful. I guess Haas would rather have 9 teams on the grid just so they can have more prize money. Their demands are not in the interest of the viewing public.

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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

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j man wrote:How petty and spiteful. I guess Haas would rather have 9 teams on the grid just so they can have more prize money. Their demands are not in the interest of the viewing public.
I think they actually have a pretty good point, but it's not really Force India's fault - more the fault of the bizarre way the whole thing has been handled.
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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

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Link-only OP´s should be prohibited.

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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

j man wrote:How petty and spiteful. I guess Haas would rather have 9 teams on the grid just so they can have more prize money. Their demands are not in the interest of the viewing public.
Haas are a long way ahead in the constructors. This seems to be purely about the ongoing fued they seem to have with Force India.

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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

Post by kleefton »

Weird. Are they trying to retaliate to what Renault did to them when they flagged their floor as illegal a few races ago? Seems so petty.

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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

Post by j man »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
j man wrote:How petty and spiteful. I guess Haas would rather have 9 teams on the grid just so they can have more prize money. Their demands are not in the interest of the viewing public.
Haas are a long way ahead in the constructors. This seems to be purely about the ongoing fued they seem to have with Force India.
I think it's more to do with the fact that when Haas entered as a new constructor they received no prize money for the first couple of years because of Bernie's stupid revenue structure, yet "new" Force India are entitled to the money that the old team would have received (presumably because Liberty Media have elected to be more fair than Bernie was). I see their point, but two wrongs don't make a right here. "We didn't receive anything so they shouldn't either" is to me quite a petty attitude to take and does nothing to undo the wrongs of the past. As I said, I think the primary motivator here is spite and it is in no one's interest to uphold this protest.

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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

Post by Blake »

So Haas follows the rules, pays their dues, yet FI gets a free exception worth millions, and it is Haas that are getting blasted here. That figures.
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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

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Blake wrote:So Haas follows the rules, pays their dues, yet FI gets a free exception worth millions, and it is Haas that are getting blasted here. That figures.
But those rules are unfair. In my view every competing team should be treated the same regardless of how long they have been around, a view I have stated numerous times on this forum. The sport's new owners have taken a more commonsense approach with Force India and should be applauded for it.

I see what Haas are upset about but unless this protest somehow results in Liberty Media retrospectively redistributing all the money that they were unfairly deprived of, I don't see what Haas stand to gain here apart from some childish thumb-nosing.

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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

Post by Blake »

j man wrote:
Blake wrote:So Haas follows the rules, pays their dues, yet FI gets a free exception worth millions, and it is Haas that are getting blasted here. That figures.
But those rules are unfair. In my view every competing team should be treated the same regardless of how long they have been around, a view I have stated numerous times on this forum. The sport's new owners have taken a more commonsense approach with Force India and should be applauded for it.

I see what Haas are upset about but unless this protest somehow results in Liberty Media retrospectively redistributing all the money that they were unfairly deprived of, I don't see what Haas stand to gain here apart from some childish thumb-nosing.
Childish in your opinion. Not mine. You are talking of millions, millions that Haas had to wait to earn, but that the new Force India does not have to wait for. I won't argue that it may not be fair, but let's be rare to both teams... Either make the wait time for ALL teams retroactive or change the policy for the future. As I said, I believe Haas has a valid point, but if you want to see their objections as childish, it is your choice.
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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

Post by Siao7 »

Blake wrote:So Haas follows the rules, pays their dues, yet FI gets a free exception worth millions, and it is Haas that are getting blasted here. That figures.
Yeah, I agree with this. Harsh maybe, but Haas do make a point. You can't have it both ways.

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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

Post by Junglist »

Siao7 wrote:
Junglist wrote:
Siao7 wrote:They are making a point...
They should focus on the racing...


Mine wasn't as good as yours. I'll give myself an A+ for effort.
Not sure what you mean, but hey, get another A+ from me!

They are focusing on the racing, things like these behind the scenes happen all the time. And apparently FI started this by hitting on Haas first if you read the article
I thought you were making a funny remark on Force India's new name. Racing Point Force India :blush:

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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

Post by Siao7 »

Junglist wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Junglist wrote:
Siao7 wrote:They are making a point...
They should focus on the racing...


Mine wasn't as good as yours. I'll give myself an A+ for effort.
Not sure what you mean, but hey, get another A+ from me!

They are focusing on the racing, things like these behind the scenes happen all the time. And apparently FI started this by hitting on Haas first if you read the article
I thought you were making a funny remark on Force India's new name. Racing Point Force India :blush:

Haha, I completely missed it, I honestly wasn't making a pun. But yeah, I see it now, and I declare yours just as good!!!!

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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

Post by owenmahamilton »

The stewards have heard the protest and will announce their decision no sooner than before FP3.

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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

Post by pc27b »

there is a bit on racer.com and steiner explains this has been being discussed behind the scenes since they agreed to allow the new force india owners to get the money. they have not come to an agreement and haas wants an agreement wrote before the off season, so any new owner knows the exact rule

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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

Post by P-F1 Mod »

I can see what Steiner is getting at, and I understand (I think) his legal standpoint in terms of the protest, but if I was your average RPFI mechanic I'd be feeling pretty frustrated right now. Over half the year's points have been scrapped, the team they should have been fighting for is now throwing them under the bus when it already feels like they have an unfair advantage due to their relationship with Ferrari, and in the process of that throw they're being questioned as to whether the car those same men and women designed, built and developed is even theirs any more.

I agree there needs to be a precedent set now for the future, but I hope it goes in favour of RPFI because it's those people who have already suffered this year. They don't need to be kicked while they're down.

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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

Post by UnlikeUday »

Haas' case against Force India dismissed:
https://www.racefans.net/2018/11/24/ste ... rce-india/
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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

j man wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
j man wrote:How petty and spiteful. I guess Haas would rather have 9 teams on the grid just so they can have more prize money. Their demands are not in the interest of the viewing public.
Haas are a long way ahead in the constructors. This seems to be purely about the ongoing fued they seem to have with Force India.
I think it's more to do with the fact that when Haas entered as a new constructor they received no prize money for the first couple of years because of Bernie's stupid revenue structure, yet "new" Force India are entitled to the money that the old team would have received (presumably because Liberty Media have elected to be more fair than Bernie was). I see their point, but two wrongs don't make a right here. "We didn't receive anything so they shouldn't either" is to me quite a petty attitude to take and does nothing to undo the wrongs of the past. As I said, I think the primary motivator here is spite and it is in no one's interest to uphold this protest.
It’s stupid because it’s not a new team, just new owners who invested TO RESCUE IT!
I get Haas’ point but it’s petty. The team was in serious trouble and the sale was necessary in order to keep it from disappearing to the depths of wherever the heck Caterham, HRT, and Marussi.

The question I have is… did Renault get to collect prize money when they bought Lotus??!?

If they did then Force India should use that as an example to be granted exemption just the same.
If they didn’t collect their first 2 years, then I can see Force India not being allowed to do the same thing.

Then there’s Brawn GP… it was purchased for all of $1 and they won the championship. Did they not collect their prize money??!? That one I highly doubt, but then they were sold off to Mercedes… did they also not collect prize money their first 2 years back??!?? Again, I doubt that was the case.

Either way, Gunther and Co. at Haas should concentrate on improving via upping their game, not hindering the acquisition of funds by fellow competitors.
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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

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F1 MERCENARY wrote:The question I have is… did Renault get to collect prize money when they bought Lotus??!?

If they did then Force India should use that as an example to be granted exemption just the same.
If they didn’t collect their first 2 years, then I can see Force India not being allowed to do the same thing.

Then there’s Brawn GP… it was purchased for all of $1 and they won the championship. Did they not collect their prize money??!? That one I highly doubt, but then they were sold off to Mercedes… did they also not collect prize money their first 2 years back??!?? Again, I doubt that was the case.
Those cases were all different in a particularly stupid and fiddly way, which is the same reason Racing Point Force India has a different point total to Force India instead of combining the two.

Due to some sort of gum in the transactional wheels, what happened - as I understand it - is that rather than Force India the team being sold to Lawrence Stroll and his investors, they actually bought all the assets and signed all the employees of that team and formed a new team that was identical in every respect to the previous one.
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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

And that differs from Mercedes buying Brawn, Brawn buying Honda, and Renault buying lotus how?
The end result is exactly the same… at team was purchased and rebranded entirely, whereas this teams name remained relatively unchanged. It’s still Force India, for this season at least, in which case they remained more the same team than any of the other examples I provided.

Each case is unique in how things unfold, but in the end, they were BOUGHT OUT and got rebranded entirely, so if they weren’t excluded from getting their prize money, neither should Force India, though I hope they lose the name altogether moving forward.
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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

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F1 MERCENARY wrote:And that differs from Mercedes buying Brawn, Brawn buying Honda, and Renault buying lotus how?
Because they bought the entry as well as the team, whereas I believe Racing Point Force India is a new entry. That would be the entirety of it: it's a purely legal difference.
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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

Post by Siao7 »

Exediron wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:And that differs from Mercedes buying Brawn, Brawn buying Honda, and Renault buying lotus how?
Because they bought the entry as well as the team, whereas I believe Racing Point Force India is a new entry. That would be the entirety of it: it's a purely legal difference.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Brawn, Lotus, etc. all happened in the off season, this is a mid-season change and the reasoning is that if this is a new team then they are using another team's intellectual property. I'm glad it got resolved as it was a nasty business and did feel a bit like Haas getting back on them. I understand them trying though, they were targeted hard these past two years

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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

Post by pc27b »

https://www.racefans.net/2018/11/28/haa ... agreement/

holy cow, what a legal mess f1 needs to work through

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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

Siao7 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:And that differs from Mercedes buying Brawn, Brawn buying Honda, and Renault buying lotus how?
Because they bought the entry as well as the team, whereas I believe Racing Point Force India is a new entry. That would be the entirety of it: it's a purely legal difference.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Brawn, Lotus, etc. all happened in the off season, this is a mid-season change and the reasoning is that if this is a new team then they are using another team's intellectual property. I'm glad it got resolved as it was a nasty business and did feel a bit like Haas getting back on them. I understand them trying though, they were targeted hard these past two years
I’d say the “when” and “what” was acquired is irrelevant because it is a new team under new ownership, period. Force India remained Force India just not under Sahara ownership.

All the rest of them were new owners and dawned completely different naming and branding. The force India merely dropped Sahara but the livery remained identical, as did the power train and staff. The same Team Principal, technical people, enggineers, mechanics, pit crews… it remained completely unchanged and business resumed without a single hitch or delay. They showed up to EVERY RACE, and qualified and raced just the same.

The FIA would be better served to simply tell Haas and everyone else…

https://youtu.be/GO_xfR64qSk
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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

Post by pendulumeffect »

I think Haas are in the right. Force India was scoring very well but run to the ground. a bit like Leeds United, who got to the Champion's League and then went bankrupt. The new owners should have had to wait to receive payments or the new teams ought to have this waiting period removed before that can receive these payments, otherwise teams may be tempted to burn themselves out and then sell on. Which is not a good thing for the sport or the employees.

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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

Sorry but that's not something that would be commonplace in F1 because F1 Teams are big money technology corporations and the one thing they don't EVER want to
publicize are financial struggles because that creates a moniker of instability and no one wants to pony up their dollars to partner up with a company that may be circling
the drain. For all intents and purposes, to any potential sponsor, that screams NO RETURN ON INVESTMENT and that rule comes well before the first rule of fight club!
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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

Post by Blake »

???
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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

Post by Siao7 »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:And that differs from Mercedes buying Brawn, Brawn buying Honda, and Renault buying lotus how?
Because they bought the entry as well as the team, whereas I believe Racing Point Force India is a new entry. That would be the entirety of it: it's a purely legal difference.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Brawn, Lotus, etc. all happened in the off season, this is a mid-season change and the reasoning is that if this is a new team then they are using another team's intellectual property. I'm glad it got resolved as it was a nasty business and did feel a bit like Haas getting back on them. I understand them trying though, they were targeted hard these past two years
I’d say the “when” and “what” was acquired is irrelevant because it is a new team under new ownership, period. Force India remained Force India just not under Sahara ownership.

All the rest of them were new owners and dawned completely different naming and branding. The force India merely dropped Sahara but the livery remained identical, as did the power train and staff. The same Team Principal, technical people, enggineers, mechanics, pit crews… it remained completely unchanged and business resumed without a single hitch or delay. They showed up to EVERY RACE, and qualified and raced just the same.

The FIA would be better served to simply tell Haas and everyone else…

https://youtu.be/GO_xfR64qSk
I understand what you are saying, but legally, even adding a letter in a name means a completely different entity. It doesn't matter if they kept the same colours, it wouldn't make Brawn GP the same as Honda if they kept the Honda livery...

Check this:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13875 ... 85000-fine

They actually avoided fines as they were applied to another team, not the new team.


They also kept the livery and name as not to confuse the fans:

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/244 ... orce-india


The whole reason that Perez files a suit was to go to administration and save the team by changing the team name/ownership. You can't have it both ways, they are either a new team or the old team.

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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

Siao7 wrote: wouldn't make Brawn GP the same as Honda if they kept the Honda livery...
My point entirely! All those teams were also new teams and regardless of off season or in season, the team was under new ownership and carried new branding, yet they were allowed to collect their prize money. Haas got screwed but that’s their problem, but force India can argue they should get their earnings via using the examples of Honda/Brawn/Mercedes and Lotus/Renault.

It’s just how the judicial system works and is EXACTLY how attorneys base their cases. A good attorney will ALWAYS look for similar cases to first influence a jury and second, to get judges already considering previous rulings. Good attorneys set a prescedent by referring to previous cases and most people can remember on of the more famous and most referenced cases in history in Roe vs Wade.

If Force India’s attorneys are the least bit sharp, that’s how they’ll approach this case.
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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

Post by Siao7 »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Siao7 wrote: wouldn't make Brawn GP the same as Honda if they kept the Honda livery...
My point entirely! All those teams were also new teams and regardless of off season or in season, the team was under new ownership and carried new branding, yet they were allowed to collect their prize money. Haas got screwed but that’s their problem, but force India can argue they should get their earnings via using the examples of Honda/Brawn/Mercedes and Lotus/Renault.

It’s just how the judicial system works and is EXACTLY how attorneys base their cases. A good attorney will ALWAYS look for similar cases to first influence a jury and second, to get judges already considering previous rulings. Good attorneys set a prescedent by referring to previous cases and most people can remember on of the more famous and most referenced cases in history in Roe vs Wade.

If Force India’s attorneys are the least bit sharp, that’s how they’ll approach this case.
The issue was that if they were re-classified a new team then they surely can't be allowed to have the previous money of another team. In the bizarre world of Bernie, where every team made secret deals on the side, this was game, but nowadays it shouldn't happen. I understand the precedent, but it doesn't mean it is right.

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Re: Haas lodges protest against Racing Point Force India

Post by pc27b »

Racing FI will have a new name in 2019. (so will ferrari and haas)

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