Re: Appropriate penalty for Max's actions?
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:06 pm
Senna got a two race ban (suspended) for his altercation with Irvine
Nah that's just more bratty behavior like Max's. Most of these kids are soft...Option or Prime wrote:You don't tell Nico Hulkenburg to "suck my ......" without being able to back it up. At 0.40secf1madman wrote:Lol I like magnussen, I'm not sure how hard he is though?Lojik wrote:Of the current crop, I could see Magnussen chinning him if he tried thatSiao7 wrote:Can you imagine him trying this crap on Webber or Senna or any other drivers? He'd get a kicking to next week...
Am I wrong in thinking the teams aren't allowed in the area where the FIA collects the cars and the drivers? If so, Red Bull couldn't keep their driver under control, even if they wished to do so. Which I doubt.JN23 wrote:I agree with those that have said Red Bull should have done more to keep Max out of trouble when he got out the car, it was pretty obvious what was going to happen.
I guess the momentary step back in civility that Trump and others represent is reflected here somehow...Blinky McSquinty wrote:What did that contact cost Verstappen? Red Bull pay poorly on annual salary, the big money is in performance bonuses. IMO it cost Verstappen approximately a million dollars. But that win was washed away, and we have a very angry young man.
Where was his team to protect him from his own anger and stupidity? Anyone with half a brain could see that he was seething and going to do something stupid.
I do not condone any violence, but to see Verstappen stand up for what he thought were his rights is actually refreshing in this politically correct world. Then again, I watched George Follmer pop Jackie Oliver in the nose and knock him on his butt.
And understand this ... all drivers are selfish self-absorbed jerks. You must have that in your makeup to be able to force yourself to these heights in driving.
OK, from that footage you've got to wonder what the heck was Max thinking.UnlikeUday wrote:I posted the link for Ocon's onboard 2 laps leading to the clash with Verstappen. Posting the link here as well.
https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2018/ ... clash.html
UnlikeUday wrote:I posted the link for Ocon's onboard 2 laps leading to the clash with Verstappen. Posting the link here as well.
https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2018/ ... clash.html
Not only that but Verstappen appears to clearly move off the racing line leading into turn 1.j man wrote:UnlikeUday wrote:I posted the link for Ocon's onboard 2 laps leading to the clash with Verstappen. Posting the link here as well.
https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2018/ ... clash.html
That provides some useful context to the whole incident. I see little wrong with what Ocon did there, he was faster and was entitled to unlap himself. Verstappen had no reason to fight him for track position.
Some people are saying Ocon was two laps down and there was no point. Well there was rain around and rain often brings the Safety Car with it. With lapped cars being allowed to overtake under the Safety Car these days that could have put him back into contention for points.
Over the Internet (websites/forums), now the blame for the collision is being touted towards Verstappen which I believe is fair.Yellowbin74 wrote:Very insightful clip - it does give a new context for me.
An entire lap? I thought it was far less than that from the onboard. Need to check it againLotus49 wrote:Looks like Ocon also ignored Blue Flags for Hamilton for an entire lap.
Alonso and Stoff got penalty points for that, there doesn't seem to be much consistency about anything around Blue Flags.
That is also important. He originally seems to acknowledge that Ocon is coming faster, then seems to make a move back onto turn 2...Jezza13 wrote:Not only that but Verstappen appears to clearly move off the racing line leading into turn 1.j man wrote:UnlikeUday wrote:I posted the link for Ocon's onboard 2 laps leading to the clash with Verstappen. Posting the link here as well.
https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2018/ ... clash.html
That provides some useful context to the whole incident. I see little wrong with what Ocon did there, he was faster and was entitled to unlap himself. Verstappen had no reason to fight him for track position.
Some people are saying Ocon was two laps down and there was no point. Well there was rain around and rain often brings the Safety Car with it. With lapped cars being allowed to overtake under the Safety Car these days that could have put him back into contention for points.
The only reason to do that would be either to move over to let Ocon past, in which case he should have backed off a bit until he was sure Ocon was clear, or he moved to protect his position in front of Ocon and make a deliberate attempt to forcefully hold Ocon up.
Looking at this footage i'm also inclined to think Ocon did very little wrong here.
Verstappen knew Ocon was on fresh tyres and would therefore be quicker.
Verstappen moved off the racing line so it's not unreasonable to think Ocon may have been under the impression Verstappen was letting him through
Verstappen moved across on Ocon on the 2nd apex of the esses
Verstappen's a good driver but God he's a moron.
Incorrect, he let him by for them as they approached the Nouvelle Chicane.Lotus49 wrote:Looks like Ocon also ignored Blue Flags for Hamilton for an entire lap.
Sorry for not being clearer but I'm talking about the above onboard video from Brazil. Ocon exits the pits and lets Max by at T4 then gets blue flags on the marker boards for the rest of the lap and his engineer tells him its for Lewis at T6 and to let him by on the straight. Then on the straight Ocon says he's not getting flagged anymore so doesn't bother even though DRS from Max is the only reason he's getting out of flag range.Alienturnedhuman wrote:Incorrect, he let him by for them as they approached the Nouvelle Chicane.Lotus49 wrote:Looks like Ocon also ignored Blue Flags for Hamilton for an entire lap.
There were no blue flags in Monaco. So I was making a joke that he moved over for the blue flags in Brazil so quickly, he was 5 months early.Lotus49 wrote:Sorry for not being clearer but I'm talking about the above onboard video from Brazil. Ocon exits the pits and lets Max by at T4 then gets blue flags on the marker boards for the rest of the lap and his engineer tells him its for Lewis at T6 and to let him by on the straight. Then on the straight Ocon says he's not getting flagged anymore so doesn't bother even though DRS from Max is the only reason he's getting out of flag range.Alienturnedhuman wrote:Incorrect, he let him by for them as they approached the Nouvelle Chicane.Lotus49 wrote:Looks like Ocon also ignored Blue Flags for Hamilton for an entire lap.
Haven't seen Alonso's or Stoff's onboards so no idea how long they ignored it but Ocon should've let Lewis by before we got to S3 imo.
Alienturnedhuman wrote:There were no blue flags in Monaco. So I was making a joke that he moved over for the blue flags in Brazil so quickly, he was 5 months early.Lotus49 wrote:Sorry for not being clearer but I'm talking about the above onboard video from Brazil. Ocon exits the pits and lets Max by at T4 then gets blue flags on the marker boards for the rest of the lap and his engineer tells him its for Lewis at T6 and to let him by on the straight. Then on the straight Ocon says he's not getting flagged anymore so doesn't bother even though DRS from Max is the only reason he's getting out of flag range.Alienturnedhuman wrote:Incorrect, he let him by for them as they approached the Nouvelle Chicane.Lotus49 wrote:Looks like Ocon also ignored Blue Flags for Hamilton for an entire lap.
Haven't seen Alonso's or Stoff's onboards so no idea how long they ignored it but Ocon should've let Lewis by before we got to S3 imo.
Well this has often happened. When haryanto came out of the pits in Spain 2016, he puulled away from the leaders slightly, but slowely. 2 or 3 laps later letting them by. He had blue flags for some time but he didn't get a penalty. With this Haryanto thing, it was obvious he was not slowing the leaders down, maybe explaining why he didn't get a penalty. I very much doubt Ocon will have effected Hamilton's race either. Verstappen was the one who messed everything up. Without that defence or different line, Ocon could well have got through without slowing Verstappen down at all.Lotus49 wrote:Looks like Ocon also ignored Blue Flags for Hamilton for an entire lap.
Alonso and Stoff got penalty points for that, there doesn't seem to be much consistency about anything around Blue Flags.
He was only 0.3 faster than Max despite having DRS. How does he pull a gap to a Red Bull without it? How long do you think the SS even give him that slim advantage that's reducing every lap? He'd have held him up within a few laps at least, its still a Red Bull vs a Force India.TheGiantHogweed wrote:Well this has often happened. When haryanto came out of the pits in Spain 2016, he puulled away from the leaders slightly, but slowely. 2 or 3 laps later letting them by. He had blue flags for some time but he didn't get a penalty. With this Haryanto thing, it was obvious he was not slowing the leaders down, maybe explaining why he didn't get a penalty. I very much doubt Ocon will have effected Hamilton's race either. Verstappen was the one who messed everything up. Without that defence or different line, Ocon could well have got through without slowing Verstappen down at all.Lotus49 wrote:Looks like Ocon also ignored Blue Flags for Hamilton for an entire lap.
Alonso and Stoff got penalty points for that, there doesn't seem to be much consistency about anything around Blue Flags.
Alonso has actually been punished twice for blue flags in the last 2 years. Vandoorne once. And I remember on Alonso's 2 occations, he was clearly not quick and was not pulling away. Was quite clearly just refusing to make room. That is quite different.
From ANY and EVERY Angle t was blatantly obvious Max was just doing what he ALWAYS does and chose to SLAM the door shut in intimidating fashion in an attempt to force the other guy to either veer off the track or brake hard to avoid contact, allowing Max to get ahead for good.angrypirate wrote:OK, from "that" footage you've got to wonder what the heck was Max thinking.UnlikeUday wrote:I posted the link for Ocon's onboard 2 laps leading to the clash with Verstappen. Posting the link here as well.
https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2018/ ... clash.html
If I was to put myself in Ocon's shoes seeing Verstappen move to the left approaching the esses i'd assume he's acknowledged i'm faster on fresher tyres & he's moved over to let me pass so as not to compromise his race & lead.Badgeronimous wrote:After seeing the onboard of Ocon I'm inclined to think he is a fair bit less of a prat for trying this, especially with potential rain and potential safety cars.
Tbh, Verstappen appears to move off line to let him past, then cuts across him. My opinions changed from Ocons on board to now thinking his penalty was maybe a little harsh, although I do believe that in this situation the onus should always be on the lapped car to get past safely and perhaps the move wasn't entirely risk free and I think there is an element of duty (and common sense) on Ocon to back out when Verstappen comes back at him - although I seriously question the wisdom of why Max comes back so hard at him, after initially moving off line, he has put a lot of faith in his entitlement as leader and the other drivers interpretation of the situation.
However, if that move was for position, then you'd have to say it was mostly Verstappens fault.
A very bizarre incident over all.
90's I'd say when Senna chinned Eddie or when Schumacher tried to get DC.Asphalt_World wrote:F1 gets it's first bit of proper driver attitude since the 1970s so F1 punishes it!
Guess that's the world we live in.
F1 has chosen to punish the inocent party, Ocon, waaaaaay more harshly than violent brat Max. Go figure the world we live in!Siao7 wrote:90's I'd say when Senna chinned Eddie or when Schumacher tried to get DC.Asphalt_World wrote:F1 gets it's first bit of proper driver attitude since the 1970s so F1 punishes it!
Guess that's the world we live in.
Utter nonsense inst it.Jezza13 wrote:
This is a load of codswallop.
Even the wording of this looks to be designed to placate and, in a way, vindicate Verstappen and his actions.
It wasn't his intention to strike Ocon but he was "triggered" and that caused him to lose his temper?
Well if he went into the garage without the intent to strike Ocon, what the hell triggered him then to cause him to do it & does that go, even partly, any way to justifying what he did?
"While sympathetic to Verstappens passion"? What makes his passion so noteworthy above Ocons and why is that even relevant to the incident? What'd the guy do? Break down & cry in front of the stewards?
Is it appropriate? No.
He should have been penalised for the next race. Do you really think picking up rubbish on a roadside or cleaning dog crap at a shelter or any other community service for 2 days will make him see the error of his ways? No chance.
Verstappen only understands 1 language and that's the language of F1. Can we honestly say Dad, Marko & Horner will be saying anything to kerb his aggression after the handbags at 10 paces stoush with Ocon? Highly, highly unlikely.
He will only start to learn when his actions start to cost him & his team points & money & when his bosses & old man tell him to pull his head in.
Its not really 0.3 sec. You dont show your true pace while following another car. Max was holding him up as soon as he came out of the pits. He was much faster. How much faster i dont know because he never had clear air to show it. But he easily gapped hamilton and had a half shot at overtaking max on his outlap.Lotus49 wrote:He was only 0.3 faster than Max despite having DRS. How does he pull a gap to a Red Bull without it? How long do you think the SS even give him that slim advantage that's reducing every lap? He'd have held him up within a few laps at least, its still a Red Bull vs a Force India.TheGiantHogweed wrote:Well this has often happened. When haryanto came out of the pits in Spain 2016, he puulled away from the leaders slightly, but slowely. 2 or 3 laps later letting them by. He had blue flags for some time but he didn't get a penalty. With this Haryanto thing, it was obvious he was not slowing the leaders down, maybe explaining why he didn't get a penalty. I very much doubt Ocon will have effected Hamilton's race either. Verstappen was the one who messed everything up. Without that defence or different line, Ocon could well have got through without slowing Verstappen down at all.Lotus49 wrote:Looks like Ocon also ignored Blue Flags for Hamilton for an entire lap.
Alonso and Stoff got penalty points for that, there doesn't seem to be much consistency about anything around Blue Flags.
Alonso has actually been punished twice for blue flags in the last 2 years. Vandoorne once. And I remember on Alonso's 2 occations, he was clearly not quick and was not pulling away. Was quite clearly just refusing to make room. That is quite different.
Alonso's last one was in Japan iirc and he wasn't trying to pull away, he was busy fighting Massa for the last point on offer and the Mercedes couldn't keep up through S1 because of dirty air. I thought that one was pretty harsh tbh but I haven't seen Brazil's footage yet, where did you see it?
I would have to agree. At first it looked like max was getting out of the way. This newly released footage clearly shows what happened; basically Max being Max.Jezza13 wrote:If I was to put myself in Ocon's shoes seeing Verstappen move to the left approaching the esses i'd assume he's acknowledged i'm faster on fresher tyres & he's moved over to let me pass so as not to compromise his race & lead.Badgeronimous wrote:After seeing the onboard of Ocon I'm inclined to think he is a fair bit less of a prat for trying this, especially with potential rain and potential safety cars.
Tbh, Verstappen appears to move off line to let him past, then cuts across him. My opinions changed from Ocons on board to now thinking his penalty was maybe a little harsh, although I do believe that in this situation the onus should always be on the lapped car to get past safely and perhaps the move wasn't entirely risk free and I think there is an element of duty (and common sense) on Ocon to back out when Verstappen comes back at him - although I seriously question the wisdom of why Max comes back so hard at him, after initially moving off line, he has put a lot of faith in his entitlement as leader and the other drivers interpretation of the situation.
However, if that move was for position, then you'd have to say it was mostly Verstappens fault.
A very bizarre incident over all.
In that situation, the last thing i'd be expecting is for him to cut back on me at the apex of the 2nd corner.
For me, the telling part in this incident is Verstappen moving off line. There was absolutely no need for him to make that move other than to allow Ocon to pass, which one would consider smart racing taking into account the race situation, or, ne was make a defensive racing move to prevent Ocon from passing, which was a bone headed move that'd do nothing other than increase the risk of the outcome we got
He's never much faster than a Red Bull, whatever the tyres, he's in a car over a second a lap slower. I've no idea how much he may have lost in dirty air but DRS and a big tow give you plenty back as well in S3. He also couldn't get within 8ths of Max's fastest time despite even newer tyres after his last stop after the SS only lasted 16 laps.kleefton wrote:Its not really 0.3 sec. You dont show your true pace while following another car. Max was holding him up as soon as he came out of the pits. He was much faster. How much faster i dont know because he never had clear air to show it. But he easily gapped hamilton and had a half shot at overtaking max on his outlap.Lotus49 wrote:He was only 0.3 faster than Max despite having DRS. How does he pull a gap to a Red Bull without it? How long do you think the SS even give him that slim advantage that's reducing every lap? He'd have held him up within a few laps at least, its still a Red Bull vs a Force India.TheGiantHogweed wrote:Well this has often happened. When haryanto came out of the pits in Spain 2016, he puulled away from the leaders slightly, but slowely. 2 or 3 laps later letting them by. He had blue flags for some time but he didn't get a penalty. With this Haryanto thing, it was obvious he was not slowing the leaders down, maybe explaining why he didn't get a penalty. I very much doubt Ocon will have effected Hamilton's race either. Verstappen was the one who messed everything up. Without that defence or different line, Ocon could well have got through without slowing Verstappen down at all.Lotus49 wrote:Looks like Ocon also ignored Blue Flags for Hamilton for an entire lap.
Alonso and Stoff got penalty points for that, there doesn't seem to be much consistency about anything around Blue Flags.
Alonso has actually been punished twice for blue flags in the last 2 years. Vandoorne once. And I remember on Alonso's 2 occations, he was clearly not quick and was not pulling away. Was quite clearly just refusing to make room. That is quite different.
Alonso's last one was in Japan iirc and he wasn't trying to pull away, he was busy fighting Massa for the last point on offer and the Mercedes couldn't keep up through S1 because of dirty air. I thought that one was pretty harsh tbh but I haven't seen Brazil's footage yet, where did you see it?
He was much faster than a redbull with old tires and with obviously turned down engine settings. The thing is; why Ocon was pushing. He is trying to make up time while the tires are at their best. If he stays behind Max he is wasting the optimum performance of the tires, hence losing time to whoever he was racing. So of course it makes sense for him to try to unlap himself. If Max comes flying past 2-3 laps later because of blue flags and he has upped his pace, and Ocon's tires aren't nearly as good then so be it. But it's also entirely possible Max stays in cruise mode and never catches up.Lotus49 wrote:He's never much faster than a Red Bull, whatever the tyres, he's in a car over a second a lap slower. I've no idea how much he may have lost in dirty air but DRS and a big tow give you plenty back as well in S3. He also couldn't get within 8ths of Max's fastest time despite even newer tyres after his last stop after the SS only lasted 16 laps.kleefton wrote:Its not really 0.3 sec. You dont show your true pace while following another car. Max was holding him up as soon as he came out of the pits. He was much faster. How much faster i dont know because he never had clear air to show it. But he easily gapped hamilton and had a half shot at overtaking max on his outlap.Lotus49 wrote:He was only 0.3 faster than Max despite having DRS. How does he pull a gap to a Red Bull without it? How long do you think the SS even give him that slim advantage that's reducing every lap? He'd have held him up within a few laps at least, its still a Red Bull vs a Force India.TheGiantHogweed wrote:Well this has often happened. When haryanto came out of the pits in Spain 2016, he puulled away from the leaders slightly, but slowely. 2 or 3 laps later letting them by. He had blue flags for some time but he didn't get a penalty. With this Haryanto thing, it was obvious he was not slowing the leaders down, maybe explaining why he didn't get a penalty. I very much doubt Ocon will have effected Hamilton's race either. Verstappen was the one who messed everything up. Without that defence or different line, Ocon could well have got through without slowing Verstappen down at all.Lotus49 wrote:Looks like Ocon also ignored Blue Flags for Hamilton for an entire lap.
Alonso and Stoff got penalty points for that, there doesn't seem to be much consistency about anything around Blue Flags.
Alonso has actually been punished twice for blue flags in the last 2 years. Vandoorne once. And I remember on Alonso's 2 occations, he was clearly not quick and was not pulling away. Was quite clearly just refusing to make room. That is quite different.
Alonso's last one was in Japan iirc and he wasn't trying to pull away, he was busy fighting Massa for the last point on offer and the Mercedes couldn't keep up through S1 because of dirty air. I thought that one was pretty harsh tbh but I haven't seen Brazil's footage yet, where did you see it?
I just can't see how he drives away from the fastest guy and car on track if Max pushed. The tyre delta never looked big enough to me anyway.
If he was that much faster then he doesn't have to treat T2 like its his one and only chance. Cruise up and use that Mercedes power to breeze past. If he can't then back off, I just don't like the idea of backmarkers fighting that hard against the leader, it opens it up to all sorts of abuse.kleefton wrote:He was much faster than a redbull with old tires and with obviously turned down engine settings. The thing is; why Ocon was pushing. He is trying to make up time while the tires are at their best. If he stays behind Max he is wasting the optimum performance of the tires, hence losing time to whoever he was racing. So of course it makes sense for him to try to unlap himself. If Max comes flying past 2-3 laps later because of blue flags and he has upped his pace, and Ocon's tires aren't nearly as good then so be it. But it's also entirely possible Max stays in cruise mode and never catches up.Lotus49 wrote:He's never much faster than a Red Bull, whatever the tyres, he's in a car over a second a lap slower. I've no idea how much he may have lost in dirty air but DRS and a big tow give you plenty back as well in S3. He also couldn't get within 8ths of Max's fastest time despite even newer tyres after his last stop after the SS only lasted 16 laps.kleefton wrote:Its not really 0.3 sec. You dont show your true pace while following another car. Max was holding him up as soon as he came out of the pits. He was much faster. How much faster i dont know because he never had clear air to show it. But he easily gapped hamilton and had a half shot at overtaking max on his outlap.Lotus49 wrote:He was only 0.3 faster than Max despite having DRS. How does he pull a gap to a Red Bull without it? How long do you think the SS even give him that slim advantage that's reducing every lap? He'd have held him up within a few laps at least, its still a Red Bull vs a Force India.TheGiantHogweed wrote: Well this has often happened. When haryanto came out of the pits in Spain 2016, he puulled away from the leaders slightly, but slowely. 2 or 3 laps later letting them by. He had blue flags for some time but he didn't get a penalty. With this Haryanto thing, it was obvious he was not slowing the leaders down, maybe explaining why he didn't get a penalty. I very much doubt Ocon will have effected Hamilton's race either. Verstappen was the one who messed everything up. Without that defence or different line, Ocon could well have got through without slowing Verstappen down at all.
Alonso has actually been punished twice for blue flags in the last 2 years. Vandoorne once. And I remember on Alonso's 2 occations, he was clearly not quick and was not pulling away. Was quite clearly just refusing to make room. That is quite different.
Alonso's last one was in Japan iirc and he wasn't trying to pull away, he was busy fighting Massa for the last point on offer and the Mercedes couldn't keep up through S1 because of dirty air. I thought that one was pretty harsh tbh but I haven't seen Brazil's footage yet, where did you see it?
I just can't see how he drives away from the fastest guy and car on track if Max pushed. The tyre delta never looked big enough to me anyway.
But the gap in performance at that juncture wasn't really 0.3sec. Would be tough to stay in DRS range if that was the actual delta.
So according to you a person can cut you off on the road and cause a wreck and should immediately come after you too?Asphalt_World wrote:F1 gets it's first bit of proper driver attitude since the 1970s so F1 punishes it!
Guess that's the world we live in.
Sorry I disagree. If you watch it again, you see that Ocon actually had his nose in front at turn one. Verstappen braked late and dove on the inside to inch out in front and then expected Ocon to get out of the way. He did the same when he was overtaking Vettel, he just does not have any respect for any car that he is fighting with, and that is why it is going to bite him every now and then. That is also the reason Hamilton gave him so much room at COTA; because he knows that is how Max drives. He never leaves space. IMO it was refreshing to see that someone didn't chicken out against him. Being a lap down or not does not matter. Once you are fighting on track, you must respect the rules of engagement, otherwise you have to expect things might go wrong.Lotus49 wrote:He didn't come close to breezing past on the straight into T1 and was too impatient to try again in the next DRS zone down into T4. Those were the sensible options if he's much faster anyway.
I wouldn't expect a lapped car to compete for the apex in T2 either, I'd barely expect it when racing for position, Bottas backed out after getting passed by Dan, its asking for trouble and also because you're both risking your exit of T3 if you fight there even if you both avoid contact during T2, and you can end up bleeding time down the straight because of it.
As soon as Max defended T1 Ocon should've just focused on getting the best exit of T3 to just breeze past with DRS on the run to T4 if he had the pace. Clean and simple and not aggressive.