2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

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pokerman
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

inky38 wrote:If this had not been a back marker trying to overtake the race leader, but simply a fight for position, who would have got the penalty?

In my opinion it would have been Max.

Is there a written rule that switches the blame when the race leader is involved? I honestly don't know, that's why I'm asking
A backmarker doesn't have the same rights as someone actually racing for position, I think that's only fair?
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inky38
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by inky38 »

pokerman wrote:
inky38 wrote:If this had not been a back marker trying to overtake the race leader, but simply a fight for position, who would have got the penalty?

In my opinion it would have been Max.

Is there a written rule that switches the blame when the race leader is involved? I honestly don't know, that's why I'm asking
A backmarker doesn't have the same rights as someone actually racing for position, I think that's only fair?
I'm not disagreeing to that, but is there a written rule that states that ?

Siao7
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Siao7 »

pokerman wrote:
inky38 wrote:If this had not been a back marker trying to overtake the race leader, but simply a fight for position, who would have got the penalty?

In my opinion it would have been Max.

Is there a written rule that switches the blame when the race leader is involved? I honestly don't know, that's why I'm asking
A backmarker doesn't have the same rights as someone actually racing for position, I think that's only fair?
I generally do not get this expression. Isn't a backmarker also racing for a (his own) position? They are not racing each other obviously, but the backmarker is having his own race, surely

pokerman
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

inky38 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
inky38 wrote:If this had not been a back marker trying to overtake the race leader, but simply a fight for position, who would have got the penalty?

In my opinion it would have been Max.

Is there a written rule that switches the blame when the race leader is involved? I honestly don't know, that's why I'm asking
A backmarker doesn't have the same rights as someone actually racing for position, I think that's only fair?
I'm not disagreeing to that, but is there a written rule that states that ?
I don't know but that seems to be the view taken by the stewards?
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pokerman
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
inky38 wrote:If this had not been a back marker trying to overtake the race leader, but simply a fight for position, who would have got the penalty?

In my opinion it would have been Max.

Is there a written rule that switches the blame when the race leader is involved? I honestly don't know, that's why I'm asking
A backmarker doesn't have the same rights as someone actually racing for position, I think that's only fair?
I generally do not get this expression. Isn't a backmarker also racing for a (his own) position? They are not racing each other obviously, but the backmarker is having his own race, surely
How does passing the leader improve your actual race position?
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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
inky38 wrote:If this had not been a back marker trying to overtake the race leader, but simply a fight for position, who would have got the penalty?

In my opinion it would have been Max.

Is there a written rule that switches the blame when the race leader is involved? I honestly don't know, that's why I'm asking
A backmarker doesn't have the same rights as someone actually racing for position, I think that's only fair?
I generally do not get this expression. Isn't a backmarker also racing for a (his own) position? They are not racing each other obviously, but the backmarker is having his own race, surely
How does passing the leader improve your actual race position?
If the leader is going slower than the backmarker's pace then he is stopping him from making up time on the car ahead, building a gap on cars behind, running in dirty air will affect his tyres.

Your argument can also be applied to say how does Max letting him through affect his own position? And the answer is that it doesn't.

Siao7
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Siao7 »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
inky38 wrote:If this had not been a back marker trying to overtake the race leader, but simply a fight for position, who would have got the penalty?

In my opinion it would have been Max.

Is there a written rule that switches the blame when the race leader is involved? I honestly don't know, that's why I'm asking
A backmarker doesn't have the same rights as someone actually racing for position, I think that's only fair?
I generally do not get this expression. Isn't a backmarker also racing for a (his own) position? They are not racing each other obviously, but the backmarker is having his own race, surely
How does passing the leader improve your actual race position?
If the leader is going slower than the backmarker's pace then he is stopping him from making up time on the car ahead, building a gap on cars behind, running in dirty air will affect his tyres.

Your argument can also be applied to say how does Max letting him through affect his own position? And the answer is that it doesn't.
Thanks Alien, that's exactly what I had in mind. I think Ocon ended up 2 secs or so behind the car in front of him, without the incident, without any damage on his car and in clean air he may have caught and past that car.

pokerman
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

Siao7 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote: A backmarker doesn't have the same rights as someone actually racing for position, I think that's only fair?
I generally do not get this expression. Isn't a backmarker also racing for a (his own) position? They are not racing each other obviously, but the backmarker is having his own race, surely
How does passing the leader improve your actual race position?
If the leader is going slower than the backmarker's pace then he is stopping him from making up time on the car ahead, building a gap on cars behind, running in dirty air will affect his tyres.

Your argument can also be applied to say how does Max letting him through affect his own position? And the answer is that it doesn't.
Thanks Alien, that's exactly what I had in mind. I think Ocon ended up 2 secs or so behind the car in front of him, without the incident, without any damage on his car and in clean air he may have caught and past that car.
Surely without the incident and subsequent penalty he would have ended up well in front of that car?
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Fiki »

pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
inky38 wrote:If this had not been a back marker trying to overtake the race leader, but simply a fight for position, who would have got the penalty?

In my opinion it would have been Max.

Is there a written rule that switches the blame when the race leader is involved? I honestly don't know, that's why I'm asking
A backmarker doesn't have the same rights as someone actually racing for position, I think that's only fair?
I generally do not get this expression. Isn't a backmarker also racing for a (his own) position? They are not racing each other obviously, but the backmarker is having his own race, surely
How does passing the leader improve your actual race position?
That depends on how far behind the previous driver he is (not counting the leader), and how much of an advantage he has speedwise. Having to stay behind a slower leader simply denies him the chance to use his tyre advantage, however limited in time that advantage may be.

To my mind (see also my earlier post), this incident perfectly illustrates what is wrong with the current blue flag rules. And I'm worried about the rationale as explained by the stewards, which refers to rules I can't find in the relevant documents.
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Ryu28
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Ryu28 »

inky38 wrote:If this had not been a back marker trying to overtake the race leader, but simply a fight for position, who would have got the penalty?

In my opinion it would have been Max.

Is there a written rule that switches the blame when the race leader is involved? I honestly don't know, that's why I'm asking

Well in that case - is there a written rule that says a driver is not permitted to shove another driver in the chest?

pokerman
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
inky38 wrote:If this had not been a back marker trying to overtake the race leader, but simply a fight for position, who would have got the penalty?

In my opinion it would have been Max.

Is there a written rule that switches the blame when the race leader is involved? I honestly don't know, that's why I'm asking
A backmarker doesn't have the same rights as someone actually racing for position, I think that's only fair?
I generally do not get this expression. Isn't a backmarker also racing for a (his own) position? They are not racing each other obviously, but the backmarker is having his own race, surely
How does passing the leader improve your actual race position?
If the leader is going slower than the backmarker's pace then he is stopping him from making up time on the car ahead, building a gap on cars behind, running in dirty air will affect his tyres.

Your argument can also be applied to say how does Max letting him through affect his own position? And the answer is that it doesn't.
That's the thing though the stewards don't care what time the back markers lose, they lose time everytime they let the leaders through under blue flags.

In respect to Verstappen letting Ocon through doesn't alter his position like you say which is why I question his decision to race Ocon.
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
inky38 wrote:If this had not been a back marker trying to overtake the race leader, but simply a fight for position, who would have got the penalty?

In my opinion it would have been Max.

Is there a written rule that switches the blame when the race leader is involved? I honestly don't know, that's why I'm asking
A backmarker doesn't have the same rights as someone actually racing for position, I think that's only fair?
I generally do not get this expression. Isn't a backmarker also racing for a (his own) position? They are not racing each other obviously, but the backmarker is having his own race, surely
How does passing the leader improve your actual race position?
That depends on how far behind the previous driver he is (not counting the leader), and how much of an advantage he has speedwise. Having to stay behind a slower leader simply denies him the chance to use his tyre advantage, however limited in time that advantage may be.

To my mind (see also my earlier post), this incident perfectly illustrates what is wrong with the current blue flag rules. And I'm worried about the rationale as explained by the stewards, which refers to rules I can't find in the relevant documents.
The fact is it doesn't concern the stewards how a back marker's race is affected in respect to the leaders, regarding blue flag rules is this a debate with a naysayer?
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Exediron
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Exediron »

Ryu28 wrote:
inky38 wrote:If this had not been a back marker trying to overtake the race leader, but simply a fight for position, who would have got the penalty?

In my opinion it would have been Max.

Is there a written rule that switches the blame when the race leader is involved? I honestly don't know, that's why I'm asking
Well in that case - is there a written rule that says a driver is not permitted to shove another driver in the chest?
Yes, the one the stewards cited.
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TedStriker »

AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
CC78AMG wrote:Whatever your opinion is. The only one that really matters is Charlie Whiting's opinion. Here is his:

https://www.racefans.net/2018/11/12/oco ... n-whiting/
I don't have a problem with the apportion of blame given the circumstances, however a point is being made about how sensible was it for Verstappen to be fighting with a backmarker?
Isn't it more interesting why Ocon moved over for Merc earlier this season when told so, but this time nearly took Verstappen out while batteling the Mercs?
Not unless your obsessive hatred of a team/driver blinds you to the fact that these incidents were completely incomparable. Ocon was not racing Lewis in Monaco and would have harmed his own pace by battling with him. In Brazil Ocon was being held up by Max. Completely different scenarios.

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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Filip »

TedStriker wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
CC78AMG wrote:Whatever your opinion is. The only one that really matters is Charlie Whiting's opinion. Here is his:

https://www.racefans.net/2018/11/12/oco ... n-whiting/
I don't have a problem with the apportion of blame given the circumstances, however a point is being made about how sensible was it for Verstappen to be fighting with a backmarker?
Isn't it more interesting why Ocon moved over for Merc earlier this season when told so, but this time nearly took Verstappen out while batteling the Mercs?
Not unless your obsessive hatred of a team/driver blinds you to the fact that these incidents were completely incomparable. Ocon was not racing Lewis in Monaco and would have harmed his own pace by battling with him. In Brazil Ocon was being held up by Max. Completely different scenarios.
For me it looked very much like he wanted to compromise VER`s race deliberately, if it was a Merc he would have ran wide and just let it threw, i think even 'PF1 hardcore' audience should notice it.

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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by AnRs »

TedStriker wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
CC78AMG wrote:Whatever your opinion is. The only one that really matters is Charlie Whiting's opinion. Here is his:

https://www.racefans.net/2018/11/12/oco ... n-whiting/
I don't have a problem with the apportion of blame given the circumstances, however a point is being made about how sensible was it for Verstappen to be fighting with a backmarker?
Isn't it more interesting why Ocon moved over for Merc earlier this season when told so, but this time nearly took Verstappen out while batteling the Mercs?
Not unless your obsessive hatred of a team/driver blinds you to the fact that these incidents were completely incomparable. Ocon was not racing Lewis in Monaco and would have harmed his own pace by battling with him. In Brazil Ocon was being held up by Max. Completely different scenarios.
So you mean he was racing Max in Brazil? You mean Ocon didn't harm his race this time? Talk about obession to twist it..

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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Siao7 »

pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote: I generally do not get this expression. Isn't a backmarker also racing for a (his own) position? They are not racing each other obviously, but the backmarker is having his own race, surely
How does passing the leader improve your actual race position?
If the leader is going slower than the backmarker's pace then he is stopping him from making up time on the car ahead, building a gap on cars behind, running in dirty air will affect his tyres.

Your argument can also be applied to say how does Max letting him through affect his own position? And the answer is that it doesn't.
Thanks Alien, that's exactly what I had in mind. I think Ocon ended up 2 secs or so behind the car in front of him, without the incident, without any damage on his car and in clean air he may have caught and past that car.
Surely without the incident and subsequent penalty he would have ended up well in front of that car?
Not sure how the race would have panned out without the incident to be honest. I can't remember the relative position of the backmarkers at that point.

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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by tootsie323 »

Filip wrote:
TedStriker wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
CC78AMG wrote:Whatever your opinion is. The only one that really matters is Charlie Whiting's opinion. Here is his:

https://www.racefans.net/2018/11/12/oco ... n-whiting/
I don't have a problem with the apportion of blame given the circumstances, however a point is being made about how sensible was it for Verstappen to be fighting with a backmarker?
Isn't it more interesting why Ocon moved over for Merc earlier this season when told so, but this time nearly took Verstappen out while batteling the Mercs?
Not unless your obsessive hatred of a team/driver blinds you to the fact that these incidents were completely incomparable. Ocon was not racing Lewis in Monaco and would have harmed his own pace by battling with him. In Brazil Ocon was being held up by Max. Completely different scenarios.
For me it looked very much like he wanted to compromise VER`s race deliberately, if it was a Merc he would have ran wide and just let it threw, i think even 'PF1 hardcore' audience should notice it.
I'm not convinced that he wanted to deliberately compromise Verstappen. However I do suspect that, had it been a Merc that he was seeking to unlap himself from, he would have approached that scenario with more caution.
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pokerman
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

TedStriker wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
CC78AMG wrote:Whatever your opinion is. The only one that really matters is Charlie Whiting's opinion. Here is his:

https://www.racefans.net/2018/11/12/oco ... n-whiting/
I don't have a problem with the apportion of blame given the circumstances, however a point is being made about how sensible was it for Verstappen to be fighting with a backmarker?
Isn't it more interesting why Ocon moved over for Merc earlier this season when told so, but this time nearly took Verstappen out while batteling the Mercs?
Not unless your obsessive hatred of a team/driver blinds you to the fact that these incidents were completely incomparable. Ocon was not racing Lewis in Monaco and would have harmed his own pace by battling with him. In Brazil Ocon was being held up by Max. Completely different scenarios.
Indeed, thank you for saving me the bother. :)
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

Filip wrote:
TedStriker wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
CC78AMG wrote:Whatever your opinion is. The only one that really matters is Charlie Whiting's opinion. Here is his:

https://www.racefans.net/2018/11/12/oco ... n-whiting/
I don't have a problem with the apportion of blame given the circumstances, however a point is being made about how sensible was it for Verstappen to be fighting with a backmarker?
Isn't it more interesting why Ocon moved over for Merc earlier this season when told so, but this time nearly took Verstappen out while batteling the Mercs?
Not unless your obsessive hatred of a team/driver blinds you to the fact that these incidents were completely incomparable. Ocon was not racing Lewis in Monaco and would have harmed his own pace by battling with him. In Brazil Ocon was being held up by Max. Completely different scenarios.
For me it looked very much like he wanted to compromise VER`s race deliberately, if it was a Merc he would have ran wide and just let it threw, i think even 'PF1 hardcore' audience should notice it.
If it was a Merc in particular Hamilton he would simply have waved Ocon by rather than defending into turn 1.
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
pokerman wrote: How does passing the leader improve your actual race position?
If the leader is going slower than the backmarker's pace then he is stopping him from making up time on the car ahead, building a gap on cars behind, running in dirty air will affect his tyres.

Your argument can also be applied to say how does Max letting him through affect his own position? And the answer is that it doesn't.
Thanks Alien, that's exactly what I had in mind. I think Ocon ended up 2 secs or so behind the car in front of him, without the incident, without any damage on his car and in clean air he may have caught and past that car.
Surely without the incident and subsequent penalty he would have ended up well in front of that car?
Not sure how the race would have panned out without the incident to be honest. I can't remember the relative position of the backmarkers at that point.
Well if at the end of the race he ended up 2 seconds behind a car I'm sure he would have ended up in front of it without the incident with Verstappen?
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

tootsie323 wrote:
Filip wrote:
TedStriker wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote: I don't have a problem with the apportion of blame given the circumstances, however a point is being made about how sensible was it for Verstappen to be fighting with a backmarker?
Isn't it more interesting why Ocon moved over for Merc earlier this season when told so, but this time nearly took Verstappen out while batteling the Mercs?
Not unless your obsessive hatred of a team/driver blinds you to the fact that these incidents were completely incomparable. Ocon was not racing Lewis in Monaco and would have harmed his own pace by battling with him. In Brazil Ocon was being held up by Max. Completely different scenarios.
For me it looked very much like he wanted to compromise VER`s race deliberately, if it was a Merc he would have ran wide and just let it threw, i think even 'PF1 hardcore' audience should notice it.
I'm not convinced that he wanted to deliberately compromise Verstappen. However I do suspect that, had it been a Merc that he was seeking to unlap himself from, he would have approached that scenario with more caution.
Like I've just posted he would have been waved by.
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by tootsie323 »

pokerman wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:I'm not convinced that he wanted to deliberately compromise Verstappen. However I do suspect that, had it been a Merc that he was seeking to unlap himself from, he would have approached that scenario with more caution.
Like I've just posted he would have been waved by.
That's something I hadn't considered - good point.
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by shoot999 »

tootsie323 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:I'm not convinced that he wanted to deliberately compromise Verstappen. However I do suspect that, had it been a Merc that he was seeking to unlap himself from, he would have approached that scenario with more caution.
Like I've just posted he would have been waved by.
That's something I hadn't considered - good point.
Surely a more relevant question would be 'if it had been a car other than the Mercedes'? If Ocon had successfully passed slower cars at that part of the track in the past; why wouldn't he try the same against the RB?

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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by tootsie323 »

shoot999 wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:I'm not convinced that he wanted to deliberately compromise Verstappen. However I do suspect that, had it been a Merc that he was seeking to unlap himself from, he would have approached that scenario with more caution.
Like I've just posted he would have been waved by.
That's something I hadn't considered - good point.
Surely a more relevant question would be 'if it had been a car other than the Mercedes'? If Ocon had successfully passed slower cars at that part of the track in the past; why wouldn't he try the same against the RB?
Perhaps, but isn't that simply the flip side of what I've stated? One might equally ask what if Ocon were in a Torro Rosso?
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Laz_T800 »

Ryu28 wrote:
inky38 wrote:If this had not been a back marker trying to overtake the race leader, but simply a fight for position, who would have got the penalty?

In my opinion it would have been Max.

Is there a written rule that switches the blame when the race leader is involved? I honestly don't know, that's why I'm asking

Well in that case - is there a written rule that says a driver is not permitted to shove another driver in the chest?
Yeah, they are called laws.

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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Rockie »

pokerman wrote: If it was a Merc in particular Hamilton he would simply have waved Ocon by rather than defending into turn 1.
Considering this same Ocon almost came to a stop at Monaco to let Hamilton through even when it was a pass for position not Hamilton lapping him.

I beg to differ really, Ocon's only mission there was to slow Max down and do a repeat of what Bottas did in monza to Kimi.

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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by UnlikeUday »

A very crucial video! Onboard video of Ocon (including pit radio from the team) from a lap earlier leading to the moment with Max:

https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2018/ ... clash.html

- Ocon pits for fresh Supersofts & after he exits the pits, allows Verstappen to lap him before turn 4. Hamilton is behind.
- For he next 2 laps, Ocon is able to be right behind Verstappen & fast enough to not slow down to let Hamilton through.
- Towards the end of the 2nd lap of Ocon behind Verstappen, he acknowledges that a backmarker (can't decipher exact words) is pushing him & his race engineer lets him Know Ocon is on fresh Supersofts.
- At the end of the 2nd lap, Ocon with the aid of DRS manages to get side by side of Verstappen & probably expects Verstappen would give him space in turn 2 but they collide.
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Herb »

UnlikeUday wrote:A very crucial video! Onboard video of Ocon (including pit radio from the team) from a lap earlier leading to the moment with Max:

https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2018/ ... clash.html
After watching that, how can anyone can blame Ocon? Verstappen could have easily left him space - Ocon was much faster than him, he'd have been on his way.

I also struggle to see what actual rules Ocon broke that warranted a Stop/Go penalty (a penalty that I believe is more severe than any 'causing a collision' penalty we've had this year?).

F1_Ernie
Posts: 3730
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by F1_Ernie »

Herb wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:A very crucial video! Onboard video of Ocon (including pit radio from the team) from a lap earlier leading to the moment with Max:

https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2018/ ... clash.html
After watching that, how can anyone can blame Ocon? Verstappen could have easily left him space - Ocon was much faster than him, he'd have been on his way.

I also struggle to see what actual rules Ocon broke that warranted a Stop/Go penalty (a penalty that I believe is more severe than any 'causing a collision' penalty we've had this year?).
It was Ocons fault, he basically went fighting into turns 2 and 3 like it was for the race win. It's pretty obvious Ocon should have backed out and followed into the next straight. You simply don't go fighting the leaders like your fighting for position.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place
2018: 12th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016, 3rd China 2018, 3rd Japan 2018, 2nd Mexico 2018

Herb
Posts: 2352
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Herb »

F1_Ernie wrote:
Herb wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:A very crucial video! Onboard video of Ocon (including pit radio from the team) from a lap earlier leading to the moment with Max:

https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2018/ ... clash.html
After watching that, how can anyone can blame Ocon? Verstappen could have easily left him space - Ocon was much faster than him, he'd have been on his way.

I also struggle to see what actual rules Ocon broke that warranted a Stop/Go penalty (a penalty that I believe is more severe than any 'causing a collision' penalty we've had this year?).
It was Ocons fault, he basically went fighting into turns 2 and 3 like it was for the race win. It's pretty obvious Ocon should have backed out and followed into the next straight. You simply don't go fighting the leaders like your fighting for position.
Show me a rule he broke.

F1_Ernie
Posts: 3730
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by F1_Ernie »

Herb wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Herb wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:A very crucial video! Onboard video of Ocon (including pit radio from the team) from a lap earlier leading to the moment with Max:

https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2018/ ... clash.html
After watching that, how can anyone can blame Ocon? Verstappen could have easily left him space - Ocon was much faster than him, he'd have been on his way.

I also struggle to see what actual rules Ocon broke that warranted a Stop/Go penalty (a penalty that I believe is more severe than any 'causing a collision' penalty we've had this year?).
It was Ocons fault, he basically went fighting into turns 2 and 3 like it was for the race win. It's pretty obvious Ocon should have backed out and followed into the next straight. You simply don't go fighting the leaders like your fighting for position.
Show me a rule he broke.
It doesn't matter about rules, it's common sense. Ocon was an idiot and went fighting against the race leader, you shouldn't be fighting it out with the leaders of the race.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place
2018: 12th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016, 3rd China 2018, 3rd Japan 2018, 2nd Mexico 2018

Herb
Posts: 2352
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Herb »

F1_Ernie wrote:
Herb wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Herb wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:A very crucial video! Onboard video of Ocon (including pit radio from the team) from a lap earlier leading to the moment with Max:

https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2018/ ... clash.html
After watching that, how can anyone can blame Ocon? Verstappen could have easily left him space - Ocon was much faster than him, he'd have been on his way.

I also struggle to see what actual rules Ocon broke that warranted a Stop/Go penalty (a penalty that I believe is more severe than any 'causing a collision' penalty we've had this year?).
It was Ocons fault, he basically went fighting into turns 2 and 3 like it was for the race win. It's pretty obvious Ocon should have backed out and followed into the next straight. You simply don't go fighting the leaders like your fighting for position.
Show me a rule he broke.
It doesn't matter about rules, it's common sense. Ocon was an idiot and went fighting against the race leader, you shouldn't be fighting it out with the leaders of the race.
You should only be penalised if you break a rule.

Ocon wasn't an idiot, he went down the outside of a driver he was much faster than at that point in the race. Said driver should have had more common sense and not fought a car he didn't need to be racing.

F1_Ernie
Posts: 3730
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by F1_Ernie »

Herb wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Herb wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Herb wrote:
It was Ocons fault, he basically went fighting into turns 2 and 3 like it was for the race win. It's pretty obvious Ocon should have backed out and followed into the next straight. You simply don't go fighting the leaders like your fighting for position.
Show me a rule he broke.
It doesn't matter about rules, it's common sense. Ocon was an idiot and went fighting against the race leader, you shouldn't be fighting it out with the leaders of the race.
You should only be penalised if you break a rule.

Ocon wasn't an idiot, he went down the outside of a driver he was much faster than at that point in the race. Said driver should have had more common sense and not fought a car he didn't need to be racing.
Ocon was on the outside then should have backed out, it's just common sense. It's like what Charlie Whiting said "It was just a bit unfortunate that he decided to fight for it, which was wholly unacceptable."
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place
2018: 12th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016, 3rd China 2018, 3rd Japan 2018, 2nd Mexico 2018

Siao7
Posts: 8629
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Siao7 »

F1_Ernie wrote:
Herb wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Herb wrote:
Show me a rule he broke.
It doesn't matter about rules, it's common sense. Ocon was an idiot and went fighting against the race leader, you shouldn't be fighting it out with the leaders of the race.
You should only be penalised if you break a rule.

Ocon wasn't an idiot, he went down the outside of a driver he was much faster than at that point in the race. Said driver should have had more common sense and not fought a car he didn't need to be racing.
Ocon was on the outside then should have backed out, it's just common sense. It's like what Charlie Whiting said "It was just a bit unfortunate that he decided to fight for it, which was wholly unacceptable."
Common sense says that this manoeuvre was performed there before a number of times, before Max decided to crowd a car needlessly out of the road.

F1_Ernie
Posts: 3730
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by F1_Ernie »

Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Herb wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Herb wrote:
Show me a rule he broke.
It doesn't matter about rules, it's common sense. Ocon was an idiot and went fighting against the race leader, you shouldn't be fighting it out with the leaders of the race.
You should only be penalised if you break a rule.

Ocon wasn't an idiot, he went down the outside of a driver he was much faster than at that point in the race. Said driver should have had more common sense and not fought a car he didn't need to be racing.
Ocon was on the outside then should have backed out, it's just common sense. It's like what Charlie Whiting said "It was just a bit unfortunate that he decided to fight for it, which was wholly unacceptable."
Common sense says that this manoeuvre was performed there before a number of times, before Max decided to crowd a car needlessly out of the road.
Against the leader of the race from a car a lap behind? You really can't compare :?
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place
2018: 12th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016, 3rd China 2018, 3rd Japan 2018, 2nd Mexico 2018

pokerman
Posts: 35329
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

Herb wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:A very crucial video! Onboard video of Ocon (including pit radio from the team) from a lap earlier leading to the moment with Max:

https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2018/ ... clash.html
After watching that, how can anyone can blame Ocon? Verstappen could have easily left him space - Ocon was much faster than him, he'd have been on his way.

I also struggle to see what actual rules Ocon broke that warranted a Stop/Go penalty (a penalty that I believe is more severe than any 'causing a collision' penalty we've had this year?).
Watching that I just again think why didn't Verstappen simply let him by rather than race Ocon, if that had been for actual position it would have either been seen as a racing incident or blame put on Verstappen for not leaving enough room but no penalty for Ocon.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

Option or Prime
Posts: 1919
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:50 am
Location: UK

Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Option or Prime »

I agree with that Pokerman, racing is loaded against the backmarker and but when Ocon made his move had they been on the same lap the penalty would have been reversed.

You have to wonder if MV is a bit worried by Ocon, if they are in similar performing cars in the future it all could get very tasty.

Siao7
Posts: 8629
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Siao7 »

F1_Ernie wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Herb wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
It doesn't matter about rules, it's common sense. Ocon was an idiot and went fighting against the race leader, you shouldn't be fighting it out with the leaders of the race.
You should only be penalised if you break a rule.

Ocon wasn't an idiot, he went down the outside of a driver he was much faster than at that point in the race. Said driver should have had more common sense and not fought a car he didn't need to be racing.
Ocon was on the outside then should have backed out, it's just common sense. It's like what Charlie Whiting said "It was just a bit unfortunate that he decided to fight for it, which was wholly unacceptable."
Common sense says that this manoeuvre was performed there before a number of times, before Max decided to crowd a car needlessly out of the road.
Against the leader of the race from a car a lap behind? You really can't compare :?
No, not against the leader, but I wasn't comparing that. I was comparing the "Ocon was on the outside then should have backed out". I disagree, cars have safely overtaken in that spot many times before. Being on the outside gives you the inside line in the next corner. Absolutely text book overtake on that spot. Provided the other car gives you e-space, there should always leave e-space...

F1_Ernie
Posts: 3730
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by F1_Ernie »

Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Herb wrote:
You should only be penalised if you break a rule.

Ocon wasn't an idiot, he went down the outside of a driver he was much faster than at that point in the race. Said driver should have had more common sense and not fought a car he didn't need to be racing.
Ocon was on the outside then should have backed out, it's just common sense. It's like what Charlie Whiting said "It was just a bit unfortunate that he decided to fight for it, which was wholly unacceptable."
Common sense says that this manoeuvre was performed there before a number of times, before Max decided to crowd a car needlessly out of the road.
Against the leader of the race from a car a lap behind? You really can't compare :?
No, not against the leader, but I wasn't comparing that. I was comparing the "Ocon was on the outside then should have backed out". I disagree, cars have safely overtaken in that spot many times before. Being on the outside gives you the inside line in the next corner. Absolutely text book overtake on that spot. Provided the other car gives you e-space, there should always leave e-space...
There's no comparison because you can't compare fighting for position to fighting the race leader to unlap yourself, they are literally completely different. Ocon should back out because you don't fight the leader. If you are that much quicker then your get a better exit and DRS for the next straight to make a clean pass.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place
2018: 12th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016, 3rd China 2018, 3rd Japan 2018, 2nd Mexico 2018

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