2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

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StanB123
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by StanB123 »

BMWSauber84 wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
StanB123 wrote:
Clarky wrote: So Horner is condoning such actions!
Of course he is. These are people, we want to see passion. I don't watch F1 to see professionals race.

As for Verstappen vs. Ocon, we have seen many successful moves in the first two corners. Even ones where drivers gave each other little space. Ocon could have lifted, braked, or gone off-road. Because he was stubborn, he intervened in a situation he wasn't part of. Had this been about a championship, this would have been quite dramatic. In my mind unlapping is okay, but you need to be sure.

Why Ocon tried to pick a fight with the leader, who actually was two laps ahead of him baffles me. Verstappen was always going to pass him, no matter if he unlapped himself in that corner or not. In a race where we see Ferrari customers and Mercedes customers waving their vendors by because "they are quicker anyway", I can only see this being about Mercedes' customers being told to slow down Mercedes' competitors.

I am not saying Ocon driving Max off was a Mercedes order. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was the result of one.
Behave yourself. I can't imagine Mercedes being so desperate to win a dead rubber Grand Prix (they were in prime position to wrap up the constructors title anyway) that they would ask one of their outsourced drivers to take Max out. Let's not try and insert absurd conspiracy theories into what was just reckless driving from Ocon.
So the whole truth is only and ever on your side, and if you can't imagine something it's absolutely impossible to happen? Why don't you just let people express their opinions, and stop calling them to behave because your opinion differs from them?
It's not just about opinions. The post I was replying to implied Mercedes would be willing to ask a driver on their payroll to cause a crash deliberately. Therefore it also implies that Ocon would deliberately cause a crash and abandon his racing integrity. I was merely pointing out the lack of evidence and logic to these claims.

You seem to have nothing to add here except self riteous whataboutery so far.
You completely misread me. What I was trying to say was that Mercedes might have ordered Ocon to hold up Verstappen as much as possible. Which resulted in this crash.

pokerman
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Greenman wrote:.

Well the Stewards "bottled it" with Vettel's penalty, let us see if they have the courage to penalise Verstappen much more severely for his assault on Ocon.

That sort of behaviour should be totally unacceptable.

( Likewise it won't do Red Bull's image any good - so they have a challenge to openly discipline him. )

.
On the contrary, Red Bull are fine with it. Christian Horner said "Ocon is lucky to get away with only a shove."
Yeah he said that Verstappen did well to restrain himself. 8O
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

Bacus wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Bacus wrote:
kleefton wrote:What a race. So entertaining. Verstappen had it in the bag, but his old habits of not giving enough room, not being sensible in wheel to wheel combat cost him. When will he learn? Not sure. Of course Ocon shouldn't have fought there, but he was just setting up for a good exit and Max just cut him off.
Vettel was nowhere, Kimi outclassed him today. So happy for Lewis. I foresee he will be the underdog next year. You can see that Redbull is coming, and Ferrari with Leclerc and Vettel are going to be tough. So for lewis, it's rack up the wins while he still can imho.
I'm sorry but no way that was his fault. I will certainly would've done the same in his place, I wouldn't expect a backmarker to do that AFTER he was passed, no way. It's not like Ocon had the better pace, just that on that sequence, after the straight line, he was close to him.
Nah. When another car is next to you have to leave room, you can't act like they are not there. It's not a matter of expecting or whatever, it's about knowing whether there is a car alongside or not. This happens to Max too often.
This was not a usual duel. It was a car that was 2 laps down, I don't remember seeing a backmarker going side by side into corners with the LEADER. Unlap on straight or on the braking safely, sure, but not that kind of the risk.
And Max was slightly ahead. I've seen situations like this plenty over the years, backmarker just backs up, is the sensible and logical thing. The penalty shows that Ocon clearly was wrong.
I do in 2013, Hamilton was in about 3rd place when Bottas came out of the pits and tried to pass Hamilton and unlap himself, Hamilton moved across on Bottas going into the braking area and managed to crash himself out of the race, Bottas was viewed as having done nothing wrong, I think perhaps Hamilton had this in mind when telling Verstappen that drivers are entitled to unlap themselves and you should always leave enough room?
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

Clarky wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Greenman wrote:.

Well the Stewards "bottled it" with Vettel's penalty, let us see if they have the courage to penalise Verstappen much more severely for his assault on Ocon.

That sort of behaviour should be totally unacceptable.

( Likewise it won't do Red Bull's image any good - so they have a challenge to openly discipline him. )

.
On the contrary, Red Bull are fine with it. Christian Horner said "Ocon is lucky to get away with only a shove."
So Horner is condoning such actions!
When does he ever do different?
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

Clarky wrote:What happened with Vettel today?
No pace I would say his worse race of the year.
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

Bacus wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Greenman wrote:.

Well the Stewards "bottled it" with Vettel's penalty, let us see if they have the courage to penalise Verstappen much more severely for his assault on Ocon.

That sort of behaviour should be totally unacceptable.

( Likewise it won't do Red Bull's image any good - so they have a challenge to openly discipline him. )

.
On the contrary, Red Bull are fine with it. Christian Horner said "Ocon is lucky to get away with only a shove."
So Horner is condoning such actions!
FFS he only shoved someone :lol: the over reaction is a good laugh.
The political correctness these days is ridiculous :lol:

BTW Ocon has got more than those shoves, on his instagram page a river of swearing and bullying is flowing.
Max should stay chill, Ocon has received the message. :D
Yes Verstappen must be proud to have fans like that? :thumbdown:
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dompclarke

Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by dompclarke »

Things people seem to be misunderstanding on the Ocon/Verstappen incident are that:
-Ocon had not just been lapped, he had been help up behind Verstappen for 2 laps
-Ocon had double checked with the team about unlapping himself and is allowed to do so
-Force India say Ocon would have lost around 6 second (I think it was) which would effect his race
-Ocon was as far on the inside of the corner as he could be in turn two after being ahead through turn one, it wasn't a mad lunge up the inside
Image

My initial thought was racing incident and I still lean towards this.
As Hamilton pointed out he was allowed to unlap himself and Verstappen had the room on track to avoid contact easily. Pretty sure Hamilton, Raikkonen and Ricciardo would have got through there unscathed and nothing more would have been said on the incident.

Greenman
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Greenman »

.

YET again, the stewards are wimps ! Verstappen deliberately assaulted another driver in contradiction of the rules and all he gets is 2 days public service ! The stewards are making the rules a mockery.

By the way, what does Verstappen and the stewards consider a "trigger" ?

No one attacked Verstappen, no one insulted him, ONLY Verstappen "triggered" the assault himself - AGAIN a mockery of the "rules".

I am getting to the point where I hope the local police arrest Verstappen for common assault - at least it might bring it home to F1 how unacceptable his behaviour has been.

.

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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by -ZeroGravityToilet- »

dompclarke wrote:Things people seem to be misunderstanding on the Ocon/Verstappen incident are that:
-Ocon had not just been lapped, he had been help up behind Verstappen for 2 laps
-Ocon had double checked with the team about unlapping himself and is allowed to do so
-Force India say Ocon would have lost around 6 second (I think it was) which would effect his race
-Ocon was as far on the inside of the corner as he could be in turn two after being ahead through turn one, it wasn't a mad lunge up the inside
Image

My initial thought was racing incident and I still lean towards this.
As Hamilton pointed out he was allowed to unlap himself and Verstappen had the room on track to avoid contact easily. Pretty sure Hamilton, Raikkonen and Ricciardo would have got through there unscathed and nothing more would have been said on the incident.
Seeing during the race only a partial repeat of the crash, and unaware of the previous context, I thought Ocon squarely to blame. Now, I lean towards racing incident or, perhaps, Max's fault. Regardless of his position, one can not do as he wishes all the time. Which Max seems to be sure to deserve.

It's going to be difficult to watch in the next years as he gets more and more 'entitled' through repeated favoritism.

I guess it's F1...

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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:My take is that it was Ocon's fault. Yes, you are allowed to unlap yourself, but I think when you're not fighting for position - when you're not even on the same lap - you need to show extra respect and accept that if you can't get past easily you don't do the move. Ocon wasn't racing Max, but he acted like he was.

After that, I'm disappointed in how everyone handled it. I don't like Max shoving Ocon, and I don't like Hamilton immediately placing the full blame on Max to try to make his win seem more deserved. He got a lucky win, and I think he should have acknowledged that. I expected him to, actually, and was disappointed that he didn't. I didn't expect Max to take it in a mature way, but I have higher expectations for a 5-time champion.
Hamilton said what he did through his own personal experience, Verstappen can ignore his advice and carry on fighting tooth and nail with backmarkers.
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

StanB123 wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
StanB123 wrote: Of course he is. These are people, we want to see passion. I don't watch F1 to see professionals race.

As for Verstappen vs. Ocon, we have seen many successful moves in the first two corners. Even ones where drivers gave each other little space. Ocon could have lifted, braked, or gone off-road. Because he was stubborn, he intervened in a situation he wasn't part of. Had this been about a championship, this would have been quite dramatic. In my mind unlapping is okay, but you need to be sure.

Why Ocon tried to pick a fight with the leader, who actually was two laps ahead of him baffles me. Verstappen was always going to pass him, no matter if he unlapped himself in that corner or not. In a race where we see Ferrari customers and Mercedes customers waving their vendors by because "they are quicker anyway", I can only see this being about Mercedes' customers being told to slow down Mercedes' competitors.

I am not saying Ocon driving Max off was a Mercedes order. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was the result of one.
Behave yourself. I can't imagine Mercedes being so desperate to win a dead rubber Grand Prix (they were in prime position to wrap up the constructors title anyway) that they would ask one of their outsourced drivers to take Max out. Let's not try and insert absurd conspiracy theories into what was just reckless driving from Ocon.
So the whole truth is only and ever on your side, and if you can't imagine something it's absolutely impossible to happen? Why don't you just let people express their opinions, and stop calling them to behave because your opinion differs from them?
It's not just about opinions. The post I was replying to implied Mercedes would be willing to ask a driver on their payroll to cause a crash deliberately. Therefore it also implies that Ocon would deliberately cause a crash and abandon his racing integrity. I was merely pointing out the lack of evidence and logic to these claims.

You seem to have nothing to add here except self riteous whataboutery so far.
You completely misread me. What I was trying to say was that Mercedes might have ordered Ocon to hold up Verstappen as much as possible. Which resulted in this crash.
Ocon asked his own team if it was alright for him to unlap himself because Verstappen was slower.
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Mort Canard
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Mort Canard »

Option or Prime wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:I wonder if it was Ocon Vs. Hamilton / Vettel / Raikkonen, they would've left some room regardless of Ocon pushing through turn 2 or not. Verstappen's inexperience & ego/attitude (thinking he's the best) was a contributing factor.

https://www.racefans.net/2018/11/11/ver ... 2LOSWjAP94
I think Hamilton said it in the green room, Ocon had nothing to lose, Max had the race to lose, he closed the door on him to prove a point and lost the win as a result. If that had been for the WDC would he have done the same? He needs to learn when to concede a battle to win a war. He is going to look a bit silly if the Honda power unit isn't up to scratch next year.
:thumbup: :nod:

Lewis tried to pass Max in Austin, left him plenty (Lewis said "too much") of room, and then backed off and consolidated his position for maximizing his points for the day. Max needs to learn that.
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Mort Canard »

dompclarke wrote:Things people seem to be misunderstanding on the Ocon/Verstappen incident are that:
-Ocon had not just been lapped, he had been help up behind Verstappen for 2 laps
-Ocon had double checked with the team about unlapping himself and is allowed to do so
-Force India say Ocon would have lost around 6 second (I think it was) which would effect his race
-Ocon was as far on the inside of the corner as he could be in turn two after being ahead through turn one, it wasn't a mad lunge up the inside
Image

My initial thought was racing incident and I still lean towards this.
As Hamilton pointed out he was allowed to unlap himself and Verstappen had the room on track to avoid contact easily. Pretty sure Hamilton, Raikkonen and Ricciardo would have got through there unscathed and nothing more would have been said on the incident.
:thumbup: :nod:
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by sandman1347 »

Mort Canard wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:I wonder if it was Ocon Vs. Hamilton / Vettel / Raikkonen, they would've left some room regardless of Ocon pushing through turn 2 or not. Verstappen's inexperience & ego/attitude (thinking he's the best) was a contributing factor.

https://www.racefans.net/2018/11/11/ver ... 2LOSWjAP94
I think Hamilton said it in the green room, Ocon had nothing to lose, Max had the race to lose, he closed the door on him to prove a point and lost the win as a result. If that had been for the WDC would he have done the same? He needs to learn when to concede a battle to win a war. He is going to look a bit silly if the Honda power unit isn't up to scratch next year.
:thumbup: :nod:

Lewis tried to pass Max in Austin, left him plenty (Lewis said "too much") of room, and then backed off and consolidated his position for maximizing his points for the day. Max needs to learn that.
Lewis left Max a lot more room in Austin than he would have left Kimi or Fernando in the same situation. That's really down to not trusting Max. It's a common theme right now among all of the top drivers. They view Max as a hazard and they try to avoid the potential disaster that he represents. Max is great but he is still overly aggressive and forces others to avoid him or there will be contact.

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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by ReservoirDog »

dompclarke wrote:Things people seem to be misunderstanding on the Ocon/Verstappen incident are that:
-Ocon had not just been lapped, he had been help up behind Verstappen for 2 laps
-Ocon had double checked with the team about unlapping himself and is allowed to do so
-Force India say Ocon would have lost around 6 second (I think it was) which would effect his race
-Ocon was as far on the inside of the corner as he could be in turn two after being ahead through turn one, it wasn't a mad lunge up the inside
Image

My initial thought was racing incident and I still lean towards this.
As Hamilton pointed out he was allowed to unlap himself and Verstappen had the room on track to avoid contact easily. Pretty sure Hamilton, Raikkonen and Ricciardo would have got through there unscathed and nothing more would have been said on the incident.
So with a far better engine, DRS and far fresher tires, he could barely overtake. Doesn't sound like someone who had a 3 sec/lap advantage to me. If he had that sort of advantage, he'd have pulled up alongside and overtook Verstappen well before the first corner.

Look how easily Verstappen overtook Hamilton, and he wasn't anywhere near 3sec/lap faster than Lewis.

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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Mort Canard »

sandman1347 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:I wonder if it was Ocon Vs. Hamilton / Vettel / Raikkonen, they would've left some room regardless of Ocon pushing through turn 2 or not. Verstappen's inexperience & ego/attitude (thinking he's the best) was a contributing factor.

https://www.racefans.net/2018/11/11/ver ... 2LOSWjAP94
I think Hamilton said it in the green room, Ocon had nothing to lose, Max had the race to lose, he closed the door on him to prove a point and lost the win as a result. If that had been for the WDC would he have done the same? He needs to learn when to concede a battle to win a war. He is going to look a bit silly if the Honda power unit isn't up to scratch next year.
:thumbup: :nod:

Lewis tried to pass Max in Austin, left him plenty (Lewis said "too much") of room, and then backed off and consolidated his position for maximizing his points for the day. Max needs to learn that.
Lewis left Max a lot more room in Austin than he would have left Kimi or Fernando in the same situation. That's really down to not trusting Max. It's a common theme right now among all of the top drivers. They view Max as a hazard and they try to avoid the potential disaster that he represents. Max is great but he is still overly aggressive and forces others to avoid him or there will be contact.
Exactly right!!!
Everyone except Sebastian leaves Max plenty of space. ...but then Seb probably has entitlement issues of his own. :?
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dompclarke

Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by dompclarke »

ReservoirDog wrote:
dompclarke wrote:Things people seem to be misunderstanding on the Ocon/Verstappen incident are that:
-Ocon had not just been lapped, he had been help up behind Verstappen for 2 laps
-Ocon had double checked with the team about unlapping himself and is allowed to do so
-Force India say Ocon would have lost around 6 second (I think it was) which would effect his race
-Ocon was as far on the inside of the corner as he could be in turn two after being ahead through turn one, it wasn't a mad lunge up the inside
Image

My initial thought was racing incident and I still lean towards this.
As Hamilton pointed out he was allowed to unlap himself and Verstappen had the room on track to avoid contact easily. Pretty sure Hamilton, Raikkonen and Ricciardo would have got through there unscathed and nothing more would have been said on the incident.
So with a far better engine, DRS and far fresher tires, he could barely overtake. Doesn't sound like someone who had a 3 sec/lap advantage to me. If he had that sort of advantage, he'd have pulled up alongside and overtook Verstappen well before the first corner.

Look how easily Verstappen overtook Hamilton, and he wasn't anywhere near 3sec/lap faster than Lewis.
Not he had lost 6 seconds, he would have lost a further 6 seconds staying behind.

Edit
Although backmarkers are shown blue flags so they don't interfere with the leaders race is it right that they should happily sit behind a slower car that affects their race just because it's a leader?

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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Bacus »

pokerman wrote:
Bacus wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote: On the contrary, Red Bull are fine with it. Christian Horner said "Ocon is lucky to get away with only a shove."
So Horner is condoning such actions!
FFS he only shoved someone :lol: the over reaction is a good laugh.
The political correctness these days is ridiculous :lol:

BTW Ocon has got more than those shoves, on his instagram page a river of swearing and bullying is flowing.
Max should stay chill, Ocon has received the message. :D
Yes Verstappen must be proud to have fans like that? :thumbdown:
I guess he put himself in this situation. Generally his attitude on this is pretty arrogant (and he's not a high profile driver) , asked in the interview after he said with a smile on his face he would've done the same if for the 2nd chance. Think about it, he takes out the leader of the race and he doesn't regret it.
An apologize would ease the things a lot, but he continues to think he wasn't at fault. I can understand why he triggered Max. If he would've apologize when they met I don't think Max would've 'assault' him. Not saying Max doesn't need maturity, but Ocon also.
I'm glad he's out of F1 next year.

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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

Bacus wrote:
pokerman wrote: Yes Verstappen must be proud to have fans like that? :thumbdown:
I guess he put himself in this situation. Generally his attitude on this is pretty arrogant (and he's not a high profile driver) , asked in the interview after he said with a smile on his face he would've done the same if for the 2nd chance. Think about it, he takes out the leader of the race and he doesn't regret it.
An apologize would ease the things a lot, but he continues to think he wasn't at fault. I can understand why he triggered Max. If he would've apologize when they met I don't think Max would've 'assault' him. Not saying Max doesn't need maturity, but Ocon also.
I'm glad he's out of F1 next year.
I think you have to priorities which battles to win in order to win a war, fighting to keep Ocon behind him just wasn't necessary, I think Verstappen has got use to him being the one with less to lose and is used to the other drivers at the front chickening out as such.

I would agree that Ocon fought harder then he should have done with the leader but then again I would say that Verstappen fought harder to stop Ocon from unlapping him then what some other drivers would have done, he took more risk than what was necessary, and so you had a rock and a hard place and Verstappen always has to be the rock expecting the other driver to back out of it.

Back to some of Verstappen's supporters, hate is not a nice or positive way to think.
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by ReservoirDog »

dompclarke wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
dompclarke wrote:Things people seem to be misunderstanding on the Ocon/Verstappen incident are that:
-Ocon had not just been lapped, he had been help up behind Verstappen for 2 laps
-Ocon had double checked with the team about unlapping himself and is allowed to do so
-Force India say Ocon would have lost around 6 second (I think it was) which would effect his race
-Ocon was as far on the inside of the corner as he could be in turn two after being ahead through turn one, it wasn't a mad lunge up the inside
Image

My initial thought was racing incident and I still lean towards this.
As Hamilton pointed out he was allowed to unlap himself and Verstappen had the room on track to avoid contact easily. Pretty sure Hamilton, Raikkonen and Ricciardo would have got through there unscathed and nothing more would have been said on the incident.
So with a far better engine, DRS and far fresher tires, he could barely overtake. Doesn't sound like someone who had a 3 sec/lap advantage to me. If he had that sort of advantage, he'd have pulled up alongside and overtook Verstappen well before the first corner.

Look how easily Verstappen overtook Hamilton, and he wasn't anywhere near 3sec/lap faster than Lewis.
Not he had lost 6 seconds, he would have lost a further 6 seconds staying behind.

Edit
Although backmarkers are shown blue flags so they don't interfere with the leaders race is it right that they should happily sit behind a slower car that affects their race just because it's a leader?
They should overtake, without screwing up the leaders' race. Is it really that hard for you to understand the difference? That move required Max to change his line to make the overtake work. That's not his job. Ocon should've just overtook him on the straight the next lap, and breezed by. He was a complete and utter knob today.

mikeyg123
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Bacus wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Bacus wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Clarky wrote:Ocon is allowed to unlap himself and was ahead going into turn 1.

Max being on the inside line and then was ahead towards turn 2. At this point Ocon should have then backed out but I think Max should still have been sensible and left more space into turn 2.
Backmarker certainly has a right to unlap himself. In my opinion the difference here is that this overtake required cooperation from the leader, which is something a backmarker isn't entitled to. If you just overtake without expecting the leader to leave you room, it's OK.

Ocon's overtake required the leader to leave room for the backmarker and assist him in the overtake. That makes sense if you're overtaking for position, but an asburdity if you're a backmarker unlapping yourself.

Which is why I think Ocon was an idiot. I never respected him as a driver, now I respect him even less. Glad he'd out of a drive. An extremely overrated driver who can't even beat a journeyman Perez after 3 seasons in the sport.

I also think Max was an idiot because he had nothing to gain there, and he lost 3 seconds or so trying to show the middle finger to Ocon rather than flooring and getting back on his pursuit of Hamilton.
Yes, well put. Those are the arguments I was looking for.
If you pass anyone at any point in any circumstance you are relying on the person you are passing to give you room.

I can think of two incidents where someone unlapped themselves.

This is one -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrK3Kzhz26U

The other was Kubica on Hamilton in Brazil 08 that almost cost Hamilton the championship.

Both times the lead driver had to move off the racing line.
The bottom line is: it's not the same as if racing for positions, everyone in F1 knows that. In the examples that you show its not the wheel to wheel race as in this race, where Max had the line in the middle of a chicane (not on a straight line) and was ahead. Very hard to expect a backmarker would dive on the inside.
The Vettel/Hamilton one is only not wheel to wheel because Vettel did what Verstappen should've done and get completely out of the way.

Can anyone explain to me why Verstappen is trying to defend his position from Ocon in the first place. All he has to do is let Ocon out brake him and that's that.

Even if you think Ocon was in the wrong the bottom line is if Verstappen leaves him room to come through he wins the race. He lost the race yesterday because he got himself involved in a pointless squabble.

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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by jono794 »

ReservoirDog wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
dompclarke wrote:Things people seem to be misunderstanding on the Ocon/Verstappen incident are that:
-Ocon had not just been lapped, he had been help up behind Verstappen for 2 laps
-Ocon had double checked with the team about unlapping himself and is allowed to do so
-Force India say Ocon would have lost around 6 second (I think it was) which would effect his race
-Ocon was as far on the inside of the corner as he could be in turn two after being ahead through turn one, it wasn't a mad lunge up the inside
Image

My initial thought was racing incident and I still lean towards this.
As Hamilton pointed out he was allowed to unlap himself and Verstappen had the room on track to avoid contact easily. Pretty sure Hamilton, Raikkonen and Ricciardo would have got through there unscathed and nothing more would have been said on the incident.
So with a far better engine, DRS and far fresher tires, he could barely overtake. Doesn't sound like someone who had a 3 sec/lap advantage to me. If he had that sort of advantage, he'd have pulled up alongside and overtook Verstappen well before the first corner.

Look how easily Verstappen overtook Hamilton, and he wasn't anywhere near 3sec/lap faster than Lewis.
Not he had lost 6 seconds, he would have lost a further 6 seconds staying behind.

Edit
Although backmarkers are shown blue flags so they don't interfere with the leaders race is it right that they should happily sit behind a slower car that affects their race just because it's a leader?
They should overtake, without screwing up the leaders' race. Is it really that hard for you to understand the difference? That move required Max to change his line to make the overtake work. That's not his job. Ocon should've just overtook him on the straight the next lap, and breezed by. He was a complete and utter knob today.
His job is to bring his car home in the best position possible, regardless of the actions of Ocon or anyone else. If he thinks it's more important to prove a point than win a race then that's his problem.
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UnlikeUday
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by UnlikeUday »

@Mikey - Any other driver would've let Ocon through but because Max has some superiority complex which didn't let him allow a backmarker go past him to unlap himself.
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paul_gmb
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by paul_gmb »

There are some people that although talented, they are dumb as f**k. Max is one of them.

The only problem this guy will have with being successful in the sport, is the lack of education. Although karting since birth made him a superstar, he really is driving very well, you still need a mix of education and brains to go with it.

Unfortunately, he is missing both :)

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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by F1_Ernie »

UnlikeUday wrote:@Mikey - Any other driver would've let Ocon through but because Max has some superiority complex which didn't let him allow a backmarker go past him to unlap himself.
Give it a break with the "superiority" rubbish. You also don't know if any other driver would have let Ocon though, Ocon mucked up and the penalty proved that. I'm not even a fan of Verstappen but it seems like most people are just finding any excuse to have a go at him, at least Hamilton has someone to past the baton onto.
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Lojik »

F1_Ernie wrote:....... at least Hamilton has someone to past the baton onto.
What has Hamilton got to do with it?

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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by stevey »

Racing incident plain and simple,

Highlights things to work on for both drivers, for Max he just needs to add the restraint to his driving that LH is showing today in order to get results looking at the bigger picture. For ocon he had to rely on Max to move out the way to get that overtake done and max doesn't move over.

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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by F1_Ernie »

Lojik wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:....... at least Hamilton has someone to past the baton onto.
What has Hamilton got to do with it?
Nothing but Hamilton is use to putting up with the same rubbish Verstappen has since yesterday, someone evetnually had to take over the duties.
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CC78AMG
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by CC78AMG »

Whatever your opinion is. The only one that really matters is Charlie Whiting's opinion. Here is his:

https://www.racefans.net/2018/11/12/oco ... n-whiting/

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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Caserole of Nonsense »

i thought just plain stupid from ocon. unlap yourself yes, but dont do it like that. how many crashes have there been in that place over the years. it is an aggressive move to squirt on the throttle in the s and try and go round the outside/inside there and imo if you are unlapping yourself you shouldnt be using agressive moves to get past. once max let off the brakes and had half a car length ahead, ocon should have backed out and tried again down the straight.

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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Jezza13 »

paul_gmb wrote:There are some people that although talented, they are dumb as f**k. Max is one of them.

The only problem this guy will have with being successful in the sport, is the lack of education. Although karting since birth made him a superstar, he really is driving very well, you still need a mix of education and brains to go with it.

Unfortunately, he is missing both :)
He's just the by-product of a father who could never achieve what he thought he deserved in the sport so he's living his dream vicariously through his kid (My observation only).

There also goes any chance of a Merc drive if Ocon signs on for 2020 and holds his own against Hamilton i'd wager. I'd also gather Ferrari would baulk at him if Leclerc lives up to his 2018 form. Ricciardo won't have him at Renault if they come good.

For his sake, I hope that Honda can deliver the goods in the next few years** otherwise we could witness the meltdown of the century.

** (I really, really, don't mean that)
Last edited by Jezza13 on Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Lt. Drebin
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Lt. Drebin »

Right to unlap does not equal right to screw someones race, even more for victory. Ten seconds is soft. Ocon is guilty, no contest.
Right to ask for justice does not equal right to take physical measures. Two days of social work is soft. Max is guilty, no contest.
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

dompclarke wrote:Things people seem to be misunderstanding on the Ocon/Verstappen incident are that:
-Ocon had not just been lapped, he had been help up behind Verstappen for 2 laps
-Ocon had double checked with the team about unlapping himself and is allowed to do so
-Force India say Ocon would have lost around 6 second (I think it was) which would effect his race
-Ocon was as far on the inside of the corner as he could be in turn two after being ahead through turn one, it wasn't a mad lunge up the inside
Image

My initial thought was racing incident and I still lean towards this.
As Hamilton pointed out he was allowed to unlap himself and Verstappen had the room on track to avoid contact easily. Pretty sure Hamilton, Raikkonen and Ricciardo would have got through there unscathed and nothing more would have been said on the incident.
Add to this that Verstappen was informed by his team that Ocon would unlap himself. Completely stupid by Verstappen to make a duel out of it.

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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by paul_gmb »

Lt. Drebin wrote:Right to unlap does not equal right to screw someones race, even more for victory. Ten seconds is soft. Ocon is guilty, no contest.
Right to ask for justice does not equal right to take physical measures. Two days of social work is soft. Max is guilty, no contest.
Somebody responded to a tweet with the video saying :

push, walk, push, walk, push, walk :))))

This is what Max did. These are the things that a bully does, but it is the behavior of a bully that is all talk, no action, and usually ends up being beaten and complaining for being beaten.

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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by F1_Ernie »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
dompclarke wrote:Things people seem to be misunderstanding on the Ocon/Verstappen incident are that:
-Ocon had not just been lapped, he had been help up behind Verstappen for 2 laps
-Ocon had double checked with the team about unlapping himself and is allowed to do so
-Force India say Ocon would have lost around 6 second (I think it was) which would effect his race
-Ocon was as far on the inside of the corner as he could be in turn two after being ahead through turn one, it wasn't a mad lunge up the inside
Image

My initial thought was racing incident and I still lean towards this.
As Hamilton pointed out he was allowed to unlap himself and Verstappen had the room on track to avoid contact easily. Pretty sure Hamilton, Raikkonen and Ricciardo would have got through there unscathed and nothing more would have been said on the incident.
Add to this that Verstappen was informed by his team that Ocon would unlap himself. Completely stupid by Verstappen to make a duel out of it.
I don't think anyone expects Ocon who is two laps down to go racing like his challenging for the race win into turn 2. If you really want to unlap yourself then use some common sense and do it down the straight with slipstream and DRS.
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by UnlikeUday »

F1_Ernie wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:@Mikey - Any other driver would've let Ocon through but because Max has some superiority complex which didn't let him allow a backmarker go past him to unlap himself.
Give it a break with the "superiority" rubbish. You also don't know if any other driver would have let Ocon though, Ocon mucked up and the penalty proved that. I'm not even a fan of Verstappen but it seems like most people are just finding any excuse to have a go at him, at least Hamilton has someone to past the baton onto.
Can You justify Max hittin into the no.2 pollard after Mexican qualy when Ricciardo beat him to the pole? Max's anguish was as similar to yesterday. He in Mexico again looked just a little way off from shoving someone as well!
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by shoot999 »

I take it those who think Ocon should just keep out the way of the race leaders are not the same posters who thought Grosjean and Sirotkin had every right to continue their fight in Singapore despite the blue flags?

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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by F1_Ernie »

UnlikeUday wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:@Mikey - Any other driver would've let Ocon through but because Max has some superiority complex which didn't let him allow a backmarker go past him to unlap himself.
Give it a break with the "superiority" rubbish. You also don't know if any other driver would have let Ocon though, Ocon mucked up and the penalty proved that. I'm not even a fan of Verstappen but it seems like most people are just finding any excuse to have a go at him, at least Hamilton has someone to past the baton onto.
Can You justify Max hittin into the no.2 pollard after Mexican qualy when Ricciardo beat him to the pole? Max's anguish was as similar to yesterday. He in Mexico again looked just a little way off from shoving someone as well!
I don't really give a dam about Max hitting the no2 bollard, it's not really a big deal. He was a disappointed driver who looked set for pole, I would rather that than Kimi who grumbles at nearly everything and struggles to find emotion. A few shoves is nothing in my eyes, hopefully Verstappen has to do the same punishment as Vettel and attend an FIA meeting through video call, I'll keep away from that thread.
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by UnlikeUday »

They do have a history (probably an unpleasant one) which was a big contributing factor I feel. Verstappen clashing with Ocon during their F3 days:
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by UnlikeUday »

F1_Ernie wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:@Mikey - Any other driver would've let Ocon through but because Max has some superiority complex which didn't let him allow a backmarker go past him to unlap himself.
Give it a break with the "superiority" rubbish. You also don't know if any other driver would have let Ocon though, Ocon mucked up and the penalty proved that. I'm not even a fan of Verstappen but it seems like most people are just finding any excuse to have a go at him, at least Hamilton has someone to past the baton onto.
Can You justify Max hittin into the no.2 pollard after Mexican qualy when Ricciardo beat him to the pole? Max's anguish was as similar to yesterday. He in Mexico again looked just a little way off from shoving someone as well!
I don't really give a dam about Max hitting the no2 bollard, it's not really a big deal. He was a disappointed driver who looked set for pole, I would rather that than Kimi who grumbles at nearly everything and struggles to find emotion. A few shoves is nothing in my eyes, hopefully Verstappen has to do the same punishment as Vettel and attend an FIA meeting through video call, I'll keep away from that thread.
This is what Max had said after Danny beat him to Pole in Mexico in an interview:
“I could literally do some damage to somebody if somebody would say something wrong to me after qualifying, that angry I was.” I also remember the next day during the driver's parade he had said he hardly slept during the night because of being beaten by Danny.
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