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mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Mercedes-Benz wrote:Charles will win this battle as he is 19pts ahead with 2 races to go. But honestly Vettel has had some horrible races like crashing into Max in Silverstone, spin in Monza was embarrassing as well. He has had more DNF as well. I also think Vettel and Hamilton who are usually one of the best in qualifying have had pretty average this year.

Hamilton is a bit below his best in qualifying but Vettel is simply up against a better driver like he was against Ricciardo, as a measure of Kimi he's presently hardly any quicker than Giovinazzi in qualifying.

Not much of a measure. Giovinazzi could be a world class qualifier for all we know.

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Mercedes-Benz wrote:Charles will win this battle as he is 19pts ahead with 2 races to go. But honestly Vettel has had some horrible races like crashing into Max in Silverstone, spin in Monza was embarrassing as well. He has had more DNF as well. I also think Vettel and Hamilton who are usually one of the best in qualifying have had pretty average this year.

Hamilton is a bit below his best in qualifying but Vettel is simply up against a better driver like he was against Ricciardo, as a measure of Kimi he's presently hardly any quicker than Giovinazzi in qualifying.

Not much of a measure. Giovinazzi could be a world class qualifier for all we know.

sandman1347 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Mercedes-Benz wrote:Charles will win this battle as he is 19pts ahead with 2 races to go. But honestly Vettel has had some horrible races like crashing into Max in Silverstone, spin in Monza was embarrassing as well. He has had more DNF as well. I also think Vettel and Hamilton who are usually one of the best in qualifying have had pretty average this year.

Hamilton is a bit below his best in qualifying but Vettel is simply up against a better driver like he was against Ricciardo, as a measure of Kimi he's presently hardly any quicker than Giovinazzi in qualifying.

I think it's entirely possible that Hamilton has finally reached the stage in his career where his outright single lap pace is just beginning to diminish. That might be a premature statement and it might just be that this was a slightly down year for him in qualifying but Valteri was generally more competitive on Saturdays this year than he has been in the past and, if I recall correctly, 2003 was about the time I first started to feel like Michael might be on the down-swing too (he was also 34 that year). I'd say 2018 was Hamilton at the peak of his powers and, IMO, he hasn't quite matched that level overall this year.

Oddly, somehow 33 seems to be the age that a lot of the legendary drivers reached their absolute peak. Was Michael ever better than 2002? Was Senna ever better than 1993?

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

Mercedes-Benz wrote:Charles will win this battle as he is 19pts ahead with 2 races to go. But honestly Vettel has had some horrible races like crashing into Max in Silverstone, spin in Monza was embarrassing as well. He has had more DNF as well. I also think Vettel and Hamilton who are usually one of the best in qualifying have had pretty average this year.

They were not his fault though. Without team orders, vettel lost a win with a DNF in Russia and a likely 5th place at the last race with a DNF. Leclerc has had 2 DNFs with himself totally to blame.

sandman1347 wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:Nah, Hamilton is still blindingly fast over a single lap as well as complete race distances. Hasn't lost a step. the Mercedes this year seems to be difficult to set up just how he prefers on most weekends and he's still managed to snatch pole from the clutches of the Ferraris as well as race wins. You have to keep in mind that with the tires being as cruddy as they are, what he did in Mexico and almost pulled off at COTA is thought to be damn near impossible. He made the tires last incredible distances while still pushing close to the limit.

Mexico and COTA were both brilliant and he is very much still at his peak on race day. I think that COTA was a poor qualifying performance though and if you compare 2019 to his previous several years, it is decidedly less impressive from the standpoint of qualifying alone. Like I said, it might just be a slightly down year. I never suggested he lost a step. If anything maybe just a half step and only in qualifying. If he has then at this stage, he is more than able to make up for it with his added experience and savvy.

Liket wrote:I guess there just wasn't enough Lewis Hamilton in the Vettel vs Leclerc thread.

sandman1347 wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:Nah, Hamilton is still blindingly fast over a single lap as well as complete race distances. Hasn't lost a step. the Mercedes this year seems to be difficult to set up just how he prefers on most weekends and he's still managed to snatch pole from the clutches of the Ferraris as well as race wins. You have to keep in mind that with the tires being as cruddy as they are, what he did in Mexico and almost pulled off at COTA is thought to be damn near impossible. He made the tires last incredible distances while still pushing close to the limit.

Mexico and COTA were both brilliant and he is very much still at his peak on race day. I think that COTA was a poor qualifying performance though and if you compare 2019 to his previous several years, it is decidedly less impressive from the standpoint of qualifying alone. Like I said, it might just be a slightly down year. I never suggested he lost a step. If anything maybe just a half step and only in qualifying. If he has then at this stage, he is more than able to make up for it with his added experience and savvy.

pokerman wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:Nah, Hamilton is still blindingly fast over a single lap as well as complete race distances. Hasn't lost a step. the Mercedes this year seems to be difficult to set up just how he prefers on most weekends and he's still managed to snatch pole from the clutches of the Ferraris as well as race wins. You have to keep in mind that with the tires being as cruddy as they are, what he did in Mexico and almost pulled off at COTA is thought to be damn near impossible. He made the tires last incredible distances while still pushing close to the limit.

Mexico and COTA were both brilliant and he is very much still at his peak on race day. I think that COTA was a poor qualifying performance though and if you compare 2019 to his previous several years, it is decidedly less impressive from the standpoint of qualifying alone. Like I said, it might just be a slightly down year. I never suggested he lost a step. If anything maybe just a half step and only in qualifying. If he has then at this stage, he is more than able to make up for it with his added experience and savvy.

In respect to Austin, Hamilton had a brake issue on his first run in Q3, the second run was slower for all drivers.

Covalent wrote:

pokerman wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:Nah, Hamilton is still blindingly fast over a single lap as well as complete race distances. Hasn't lost a step. the Mercedes this year seems to be difficult to set up just how he prefers on most weekends and he's still managed to snatch pole from the clutches of the Ferraris as well as race wins. You have to keep in mind that with the tires being as cruddy as they are, what he did in Mexico and almost pulled off at COTA is thought to be damn near impossible. He made the tires last incredible distances while still pushing close to the limit.

Mexico and COTA were both brilliant and he is very much still at his peak on race day. I think that COTA was a poor qualifying performance though and if you compare 2019 to his previous several years, it is decidedly less impressive from the standpoint of qualifying alone. Like I said, it might just be a slightly down year. I never suggested he lost a step. If anything maybe just a half step and only in qualifying. If he has then at this stage, he is more than able to make up for it with his added experience and savvy.

In respect to Austin, Hamilton had a brake issue on his first run in Q3, the second run was slower for all drivers.

Wasn't this covered elsewhere that the breaking wasn't what cost him time but corner exits, besides the only report I've read about the brake issue mentions that it affected only the second run.

pokerman wrote:

Covalent wrote:

pokerman wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:Nah, Hamilton is still blindingly fast over a single lap as well as complete race distances. Hasn't lost a step. the Mercedes this year seems to be difficult to set up just how he prefers on most weekends and he's still managed to snatch pole from the clutches of the Ferraris as well as race wins. You have to keep in mind that with the tires being as cruddy as they are, what he did in Mexico and almost pulled off at COTA is thought to be damn near impossible. He made the tires last incredible distances while still pushing close to the limit.

Mexico and COTA were both brilliant and he is very much still at his peak on race day. I think that COTA was a poor qualifying performance though and if you compare 2019 to his previous several years, it is decidedly less impressive from the standpoint of qualifying alone. Like I said, it might just be a slightly down year. I never suggested he lost a step. If anything maybe just a half step and only in qualifying. If he has then at this stage, he is more than able to make up for it with his added experience and savvy.

In respect to Austin, Hamilton had a brake issue on his first run in Q3, the second run was slower for all drivers.

Wasn't this covered elsewhere that the breaking wasn't what cost him time but corner exits, besides the only report I've read about the brake issue mentions that it affected only the second run.

From the horses mouth so to speak, it's actually the engine braking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzwyFgTNarc

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:Nah, Hamilton is still blindingly fast over a single lap as well as complete race distances. Hasn't lost a step. the Mercedes this year seems to be difficult to set up just how he prefers on most weekends and he's still managed to snatch pole from the clutches of the Ferraris as well as race wins. You have to keep in mind that with the tires being as cruddy as they are, what he did in Mexico and almost pulled off at COTA is thought to be damn near impossible. He made the tires last incredible distances while still pushing close to the limit.

Mexico and COTA were both brilliant and he is very much still at his peak on race day. I think that COTA was a poor qualifying performance though and if you compare 2019 to his previous several years, it is decidedly less impressive from the standpoint of qualifying alone. Like I said, it might just be a slightly down year. I never suggested he lost a step. If anything maybe just a half step and only in qualifying. If he has then at this stage, he is more than able to make up for it with his added experience and savvy.

But the suspension failure "could" be why Seb didn't have a brilliant qualifying session. It could be that something was slightly off during qualy which hindered his ability to challenge for pole.

Rockie wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:Nah, Hamilton is still blindingly fast over a single lap as well as complete race distances. Hasn't lost a step. the Mercedes this year seems to be difficult to set up just how he prefers on most weekends and he's still managed to snatch pole from the clutches of the Ferraris as well as race wins. You have to keep in mind that with the tires being as cruddy as they are, what he did in Mexico and almost pulled off at COTA is thought to be damn near impossible. He made the tires last incredible distances while still pushing close to the limit.

Mexico and COTA were both brilliant and he is very much still at his peak on race day. I think that COTA was a poor qualifying performance though and if you compare 2019 to his previous several years, it is decidedly less impressive from the standpoint of qualifying alone. Like I said, it might just be a slightly down year. I never suggested he lost a step. If anything maybe just a half step and only in qualifying. If he has then at this stage, he is more than able to make up for it with his added experience and savvy.

But the suspension failure "could" be why Seb didn't have a brilliant qualifying session. It could be that something was slightly off during qualy which hindered his ability to challenge for pole.

No that is impossible, its Vettel that is being discussed here.

People will always find fault, cue sky trying to say he ran over the sausage kerb introduced when you could see the suspension giving way before the corner.

Option or Prime wrote:Can you have progressive suspension failure? Its not as though the bushes have worm out over time is it. Its either a broken arm or its not surely!

jono794 wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:Can you have progressive suspension failure? Its not as though the bushes have worm out over time is it. Its either a broken arm or its not surely!

The image I saw on the broadcast looked like the lower wishbone arm failed - as in the arm itself, not where it joins to the car. I'm no expert but it may be possible the carbon weave can weaken over time before the catastrophic failure?

Rockie wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:Nah, Hamilton is still blindingly fast over a single lap as well as complete race distances. Hasn't lost a step. the Mercedes this year seems to be difficult to set up just how he prefers on most weekends and he's still managed to snatch pole from the clutches of the Ferraris as well as race wins. You have to keep in mind that with the tires being as cruddy as they are, what he did in Mexico and almost pulled off at COTA is thought to be damn near impossible. He made the tires last incredible distances while still pushing close to the limit.

Mexico and COTA were both brilliant and he is very much still at his peak on race day. I think that COTA was a poor qualifying performance though and if you compare 2019 to his previous several years, it is decidedly less impressive from the standpoint of qualifying alone. Like I said, it might just be a slightly down year. I never suggested he lost a step. If anything maybe just a half step and only in qualifying. If he has then at this stage, he is more than able to make up for it with his added experience and savvy.

But the suspension failure "could" be why Seb didn't have a brilliant qualifying session. It could be that something was slightly off during qualy which hindered his ability to challenge for pole.

No that is impossible, its Vettel that is being discussed here.

People will always find fault, cue sky trying to say he ran over the sausage kerb introduced when you could see the suspension giving way before the corner.

SlipstreamF1 wrote:I thought Kimi and Ricciardo were fast until Vettel came along. Then I thought Vettel was fast until Leclerk. I know Max is fast. I think everyone knows that Max is fast. I know Mika, Massa, Montoya were not. I know Michael was fast, because he made the Bennetton as fast as the Williams who allowed mediocre drivers to win, but MS's teammates could never do anything with the Bennetton. He did amazing things when the Ferrari was uncompetitive as well. Button and Alonso were fast but Lewis was only equal to them while being much younger while they were out of their primes. So basically, I don't think Lewis is fast. Even if he beat Nico, we have no one to compare Nico to aside from an aging MS.

SlipstreamF1 wrote:I thought Kimi and Ricciardo were fast until Vettel came along. Then I thought Vettel was fast until Leclerk. I know Max is fast. I think everyone knows that Max is fast. I know Mika, Massa, Montoya were not. I know Michael was fast, because he made the Bennetton as fast as the Williams who allowed mediocre drivers to win, but MS's teammates could never do anything with the Bennetton. He did amazing things when the Ferrari was uncompetitive as well. Button and Alonso were fast but Lewis was only equal to them while being much younger while they were out of their primes. So basically, I don't think Lewis is fast. Even if he beat Nico, we have no one to compare Nico to aside from an aging MS.

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:

SlipstreamF1 wrote:I thought Kimi and Ricciardo were fast until Vettel came along. Then I thought Vettel was fast until Leclerk. I know Max is fast. I think everyone knows that Max is fast. I know Mika, Massa, Montoya were not. I know Michael was fast, because he made the Bennetton as fast as the Williams who allowed mediocre drivers to win, but MS's teammates could never do anything with the Bennetton. He did amazing things when the Ferrari was uncompetitive as well. Button and Alonso were fast but Lewis was only equal to them while being much younger while they were out of their primes. So basically, I don't think Lewis is fast. Even if he beat Nico, we have no one to compare Nico to aside from an aging MS.

You thought Ricciardo was fast until Vettel came along?!?? Care to explain?

SlipstreamF1 wrote:I thought Kimi and Ricciardo were fast until Vettel came along. Then I thought Vettel was fast until Leclerk. I know Max is fast. I think everyone knows that Max is fast. I know Mika, Massa, Montoya were not. I know Michael was fast, because he made the Bennetton as fast as the Williams who allowed mediocre drivers to win, but MS's teammates could never do anything with the Bennetton. He did amazing things when the Ferrari was uncompetitive as well. Button and Alonso were fast but Lewis was only equal to them while being much younger while they were out of their primes. So basically, I don't think Lewis is fast. Even if he beat Nico, we have no one to compare Nico to aside from an aging MS.

pokerman wrote:

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:

SlipstreamF1 wrote:I thought Kimi and Ricciardo were fast until Vettel came along. Then I thought Vettel was fast until Leclerk. I know Max is fast. I think everyone knows that Max is fast. I know Mika, Massa, Montoya were not. I know Michael was fast, because he made the Bennetton as fast as the Williams who allowed mediocre drivers to win, but MS's teammates could never do anything with the Bennetton. He did amazing things when the Ferrari was uncompetitive as well. Button and Alonso were fast but Lewis was only equal to them while being much younger while they were out of their primes. So basically, I don't think Lewis is fast. Even if he beat Nico, we have no one to compare Nico to aside from an aging MS.

You thought Ricciardo was fast until Vettel came along?!?? Care to explain?

I think there's more to explain than that like Alonso and Button being past their primes when teamed against Hamilton, Alonso in particular was the reigning double world champion and aged just 26, whilst Button was not as fast as Hamilton anyway.

In respect to Ricciardo and Vettel it sounds like some kind of alternate universe were in 2014 we had a different outcome.

sandman1347 wrote:This guy has made possibly the most ridiculous post in recent forum history. Top to bottom it reads like an alternate reality lol.

Exediron wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:This guy has made possibly the most ridiculous post in recent forum history. Top to bottom it reads like an alternate reality lol.

I don't know, I can think of some competition...

pokerman wrote:

Mercedes-Benz wrote:Charles will win this battle as he is 19pts ahead with 2 races to go. But honestly Vettel has had some horrible races like crashing into Max in Silverstone, spin in Monza was embarrassing as well. He has had more DNF as well. I also think Vettel and Hamilton who are usually one of the best in qualifying have had pretty average this year.

Hamilton is a bit below his best in qualifying but Vettel is simply up against a better driver like he was against Ricciardo, as a measure of Kimi he's presently hardly any quicker than Giovinazzi in qualifying.

Mercedes-Benz wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Mercedes-Benz wrote:Charles will win this battle as he is 19pts ahead with 2 races to go. But honestly Vettel has had some horrible races like crashing into Max in Silverstone, spin in Monza was embarrassing as well. He has had more DNF as well. I also think Vettel and Hamilton who are usually one of the best in qualifying have had pretty average this year.

Hamilton is a bit below his best in qualifying but Vettel is simply up against a better driver like he was against Ricciardo, as a measure of Kimi he's presently hardly any quicker than Giovinazzi in qualifying.

I do not think that is the proper way to compare. Probably Charles is the best driver in F1 already ? So he would beat Hamilton as well if he was against him where as Bottas is not among the best 4 drivers. Same with Nico, who was able to compete against Hamilton and beat him as well. But he is not regarded as one of the best. TBH Hamilton has no pressure once Rosberg retired and driving the best car obviously helps. Vettel said in one of the interview that he would give himself 5 out of 10 and Charles has definitely exceeded expectation. Next year will be interesting as Vettel does not have a contract so far after 2020. He will have to beat Charles. I can't see Hamilton joining Ferrari against Charles for 2021.

mikeyg123 wrote:

Mercedes-Benz wrote:I do not think that is the proper way to compare. Probably Charles is the best driver in F1 already ?

I don't think anyone has suggested Leclerc is already the best driver in F1. Certainly nothing we have seen this season would indicate that.

Mercedes-Benz wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Mercedes-Benz wrote:Charles will win this battle as he is 19pts ahead with 2 races to go. But honestly Vettel has had some horrible races like crashing into Max in Silverstone, spin in Monza was embarrassing as well. He has had more DNF as well. I also think Vettel and Hamilton who are usually one of the best in qualifying have had pretty average this year.

Hamilton is a bit below his best in qualifying but Vettel is simply up against a better driver like he was against Ricciardo, as a measure of Kimi he's presently hardly any quicker than Giovinazzi in qualifying.

I do not think that is the proper way to compare. Probably Charles is the best driver in F1 already ? So he would beat Hamilton as well if he was against him where as Bottas is not among the best 4 drivers. Same with Nico, who was able to compete against Hamilton and beat him as well. But he is not regarded as one of the best. TBH Hamilton has no pressure once Rosberg retired and driving the best car obviously helps. Vettel said in one of the interview that he would give himself 5 out of 10 and Charles has definitely exceeded expectation. Next year will be interesting as Vettel does not have a contract so far after 2020. He will have to beat Charles. I can't see Hamilton joining Ferrari against Charles for 2021.

Exediron wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Mercedes-Benz wrote:I do not think that is the proper way to compare. Probably Charles is the best driver in F1 already ?

I don't think anyone has suggested Leclerc is already the best driver in F1. Certainly nothing we have seen this season would indicate that.

I think there's an outside possibility that Leclerc is the quickest driver in F1 already, but certainly not best. During his purple patch against Vettel he was out-qualifying him by margins that suggest he's at least equivalent to Verstappen. He seems to have dropped off a bit since then, however, so that muddies the picture.

As a total package though, definitely not the best yet.

pokerman wrote:

Exediron wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Mercedes-Benz wrote:I do not think that is the proper way to compare. Probably Charles is the best driver in F1 already ?

I don't think anyone has suggested Leclerc is already the best driver in F1. Certainly nothing we have seen this season would indicate that.

I think there's an outside possibility that Leclerc is the quickest driver in F1 already, but certainly not best. During his purple patch against Vettel he was out-qualifying him by margins that suggest he's at least equivalent to Verstappen. He seems to have dropped off a bit since then, however, so that muddies the picture.

As a total package though, definitely not the best yet.

If only you actually measured things in patches, I don't see Leclerc presently being as quick as Verstappen, a driver that doesn't appear to perform in patches.

Invade wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Exediron wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Mercedes-Benz wrote:I do not think that is the proper way to compare. Probably Charles is the best driver in F1 already ?

I don't think anyone has suggested Leclerc is already the best driver in F1. Certainly nothing we have seen this season would indicate that.

I think there's an outside possibility that Leclerc is the quickest driver in F1 already, but certainly not best. During his purple patch against Vettel he was out-qualifying him by margins that suggest he's at least equivalent to Verstappen. He seems to have dropped off a bit since then, however, so that muddies the picture.

As a total package though, definitely not the best yet.

If only you actually measured things in patches, I don't see Leclerc presently being as quick as Verstappen, a driver that doesn't appear to perform in patches.

... Performs in a suffocating blanket of "extremely quick".

pokerman wrote:

Invade wrote:
... Performs in a suffocating blanket of "extremely quick".

Indeed he's the next big Champion after Hamilton.

Option or Prime wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Invade wrote:
... Performs in a suffocating blanket of "extremely quick".

Indeed he's the next big Champion after Hamilton.

Only if he is driving a Ferrari or a Mercedes in my view.

Option or Prime wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Invade wrote:
... Performs in a suffocating blanket of "extremely quick".

Indeed he's the next big Champion after Hamilton.

Only if he is driving a Ferrari or a Mercedes in my view.

Option or Prime wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Invade wrote:
... Performs in a suffocating blanket of "extremely quick".

Indeed he's the next big Champion after Hamilton.

Only if he is driving a Ferrari or a Mercedes in my view.

mikeyg123 wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Invade wrote:
... Performs in a suffocating blanket of "extremely quick".

Indeed he's the next big Champion after Hamilton.

Only if he is driving a Ferrari or a Mercedes in my view.

And back in 2008 we would all have thought Vettel would need to be in a Mclaren or Ferrari to win multiple championships. They haven't won a championship since between them.

Admittedly we are now stuck in a period of unprecedented predictability and stability but things can and do change. Verstappen has time on his side. He's still younger than Hamilton was when he made his debut.