Vettel vs. Leclerc

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How will Vettel/Leclerc Compare

Vettel will win by a mile
18
19%
Vettel will win but it will be close
45
48%
Leclerc will win but it will be close
28
30%
Leclerc will win by a mile
3
3%
 
Total votes: 94

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Lotus49
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by Lotus49 »

I don't know. I think if the Ferrari is dominant Seb will relax a bit, he's entering the years drivers tend to be at their best and if the car is Red Bull like dominant, 4-5ths, then I think he'll drive a lot better and can handle Charles.

If it's like this year and only a tenth or two back and forward between the Mercs then I think mistakes will creep in again and Charles can take advantage of it as he has pretty much no pressure in this situation as everyone will be looking at Seb vs Lewis again and it'll be Seb being looked at by the team and press to lead them.

So I think the car will determine a lot of it like always.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by Lotus49 »

Forgot to say I voted Leclerc close because I believe the Mercs will be the car to beat and I think Seb's head might drop. The new aero rules supposedly favour a lower rake concept and whatever Ferrari had to stop doing engine wise, if they did indeed stop doing something, will not be back and replicated next year so I fancy Mercedes to hold an advantage.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by froze »

What I think is interesting in this match-up is that Vettel has a lot more to lose. If he loses to Leclerc he might lose the seat as he is considered the lead driver at Ferrari who has yet to deliver a championship. Leclerc on the other hand is still a rookie as of now and is probably not even expected to beat Vettel during his first year, so it's a win-win situation for him, unless he severely underperforms, which I doubt really.

I'm starting to doubt if Vettel is actually that strong. I mean, he sure is talented and has the speed, but that seems so much circumstantial. When he's the challenger, then he just seems to keep throwing away every chance of championship he gets. He was already shown up by Ricciardo during a year when Vettel was the reigning champion, but the car was suddenly not up there, so could that also suggest that Vettel is only able to be at the elite level when the car allows him to comfortably be there, and when he has a teammate who is clearly behind him.

I don't know why but I think Leclerc will eventually surpass Vettel and claim the leading driver role at Ferrari. Whether that happens already next year or how clear it becomes remains to be seen, but I just have a feeling that Vettel might yet have to bail again to another team to save his career.
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by Llotyhy »

Quite surprised I'm the only one with the bold claim. After Vettel-Ricciardo I suspected there would be more. No one rated Ricciardo even close to how a lot of people rate Leclerc now before they were paired at Red Bull.

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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by pokerman »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Exediron wrote:I'm going to go for...

Leclerc wins the qualifying battle, and is slightly ahead on points. I really feel Leclerc is the real deal, he's going to have the full support of Ferrari, and I see Seb as vulnerable.
Noooo freaking way!

If there are 2 things Vettel shines at, they're opening up a gap from the front and Qualifying!
Vettel will not only beat, but spank Leclerc in Qualy. In races Leclerc stands a chance of being close because of how tight things are likely going to be at the front which will result in contact and the kid might be perfectly lined up to swoop in and pick up the scraps. Outside of that Vettel will be Ferrari's top driver on merit.
You seem to be defaulting a lot of pole positions to Vettel next season with all this leading from the front, one other thing should it not be SIROTKIN?
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by pokerman »

Lotus49 wrote:I don't know. I think if the Ferrari is dominant Seb will relax a bit, he's entering the years drivers tend to be at their best and if the car is Red Bull like dominant, 4-5ths, then I think he'll drive a lot better and can handle Charles.

If it's like this year and only a tenth or two back and forward between the Mercs then I think mistakes will creep in again and Charles can take advantage of it as he has pretty much no pressure in this situation as everyone will be looking at Seb vs Lewis again and it'll be Seb being looked at by the team and press to lead them.

So I think the car will determine a lot of it like always.
It's not a good luck that Vettel needs a dominant car to perform at his best.
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by Lotus49 »

pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:I don't know. I think if the Ferrari is dominant Seb will relax a bit, he's entering the years drivers tend to be at their best and if the car is Red Bull like dominant, 4-5ths, then I think he'll drive a lot better and can handle Charles.

If it's like this year and only a tenth or two back and forward between the Mercs then I think mistakes will creep in again and Charles can take advantage of it as he has pretty much no pressure in this situation as everyone will be looking at Seb vs Lewis again and it'll be Seb being looked at by the team and press to lead them.

So I think the car will determine a lot of it like always.
It's not a good luck that Vettel needs a dominant car to perform at his best.
You mean look? Agree but it's how I feel right now based on his performances in 2012,14,16,some of 2017 and pretty much the entire 2018 season.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by pokerman »

Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:I don't know. I think if the Ferrari is dominant Seb will relax a bit, he's entering the years drivers tend to be at their best and if the car is Red Bull like dominant, 4-5ths, then I think he'll drive a lot better and can handle Charles.

If it's like this year and only a tenth or two back and forward between the Mercs then I think mistakes will creep in again and Charles can take advantage of it as he has pretty much no pressure in this situation as everyone will be looking at Seb vs Lewis again and it'll be Seb being looked at by the team and press to lead them.

So I think the car will determine a lot of it like always.
It's not a good luck that Vettel needs a dominant car to perform at his best.
You mean look? Agree but it's how I feel right now based on his performances in 2012,14,16,some of 2017 and pretty much the entire 2018 season.
Yep typo :blush:
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by Lotus49 »

:thumbup:
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

well, i know Vettel made a silly wet weather mistake in germany, but Ericsson has looked as strong or stronger than Leclerc every wet session this year. And I thought wet weather was Ericsson's main weakness as the only wet races he's ever been classified in was Japan 2014 and Germany this year. And the latter of those two, Leclerc was very poor when the rain came. I think that even though vettel isn't an outstanding wet weather driver, he will have a massive advantage over Leclerc there. This is the main area that I think Leclerc needs to improve as it is where Ericsson seems to be able to match him.

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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by kleefton »

Gosh Seb’s stock is at an all time low!

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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by Exediron »

kleefton wrote:Gosh Seb’s stock is at an all time low!
Probably. After 2014 his stock crashed, but people were willing to write it off as a one-time occurrence - he was trying to leave the team, or he was burned out after winning four in a row, or he was't motivated when the car wasn't title-capable, etc.

But after two seasons of facing Hamilton in relatively equal machinery, there's no doubt in most people's minds any longer: Vettel is not at Hamilton's level over a whole season. His stock will, in my opinion, never recover to the heights it was at post-2013, even if he wins the title for Ferrari in the future.

At the same time, Leclerc's stock has shot upwards faster than a dotcom stock in the late 1990s. That crossover is manifested in this thread, where Leclerc's stock has actually already reached a point higher than Vettel's plummeting valuation.
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:Gosh Seb’s stock is at an all time low!
Probably. After 2014 his stock crashed, but people were willing to write it off as a one-time occurrence - he was trying to leave the team, or he was burned out after winning four in a row, or he was't motivated when the car wasn't title-capable, etc.

But after two seasons of facing Hamilton in relatively equal machinery, there's no doubt in most people's minds any longer: Vettel is not at Hamilton's level over a whole season. His stock will, in my opinion, never recover to the heights it was at post-2013, even if he wins the title for Ferrari in the future.

At the same time, Leclerc's stock has shot upwards faster than a dotcom stock in the late 1990s. That crossover is manifested in this thread, where Leclerc's stock has actually already reached a point higher than Vettel's plummeting valuation.
I also think F1 fans in general have very short memories. Beginning of the season I remember seeing a lot of Vettel>Hamilton sentiment when Hamilton wasn't performing that well against Bottas and Vettel was setting lots of pole positions (despite having a car advantage).

Contrast that to post Italy when Leclerc was confirmed and I legitimately saw a lot of people saying they should have dropped Vettel instead. Running a poll on a drivers stock is largely influenced by the last 5 races IMO.

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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by Mort Canard »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:Gosh Seb’s stock is at an all time low!
Probably. After 2014 his stock crashed, but people were willing to write it off as a one-time occurrence - he was trying to leave the team, or he was burned out after winning four in a row, or he was't motivated when the car wasn't title-capable, etc.

But after two seasons of facing Hamilton in relatively equal machinery, there's no doubt in most people's minds any longer: Vettel is not at Hamilton's level over a whole season. His stock will, in my opinion, never recover to the heights it was at post-2013, even if he wins the title for Ferrari in the future.

At the same time, Leclerc's stock has shot upwards faster than a dotcom stock in the late 1990s. That crossover is manifested in this thread, where Leclerc's stock has actually already reached a point higher than Vettel's plummeting valuation.
I also think F1 fans in general have very short memories. Beginning of the season I remember seeing a lot of Vettel>Hamilton sentiment when Hamilton wasn't performing that well against Bottas and Vettel was setting lots of pole positions (despite having a car advantage).

Contrast that to post Italy when Leclerc was confirmed and I legitimately saw a lot of people saying they should have dropped Vettel instead. Running a poll on a drivers stock is largely influenced by the last 5 races IMO.
:thumbup:
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by mas »

LeClerc by at least an edge if not more. Vettel is now potentially fighting to retain his seat now that his Kimi comfort blanket is leaving. If Giovinazzi does well against Kimi he could take his seat in 2021. Arrivabene thinks Vettel is great but in reality he's fluffed two seasons now in which he had a great potentially WDC winning car. They would have been better off with getting Alonso back for this season rather than Kimi especially as he was interested last year.

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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by sandman1347 »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:Gosh Seb’s stock is at an all time low!
Probably. After 2014 his stock crashed, but people were willing to write it off as a one-time occurrence - he was trying to leave the team, or he was burned out after winning four in a row, or he was't motivated when the car wasn't title-capable, etc.

But after two seasons of facing Hamilton in relatively equal machinery, there's no doubt in most people's minds any longer: Vettel is not at Hamilton's level over a whole season. His stock will, in my opinion, never recover to the heights it was at post-2013, even if he wins the title for Ferrari in the future.

At the same time, Leclerc's stock has shot upwards faster than a dotcom stock in the late 1990s. That crossover is manifested in this thread, where Leclerc's stock has actually already reached a point higher than Vettel's plummeting valuation.
I also think F1 fans in general have very short memories. Beginning of the season I remember seeing a lot of Vettel>Hamilton sentiment when Hamilton wasn't performing that well against Bottas and Vettel was setting lots of pole positions (despite having a car advantage).

Contrast that to post Italy when Leclerc was confirmed and I legitimately saw a lot of people saying they should have dropped Vettel instead. Running a poll on a drivers stock is largely influenced by the last 5 races IMO.
It's all relative. What you've described are largely sentiments from casual fans. My sense is that most knowledgeable fans have never honestly thought that Vettel was a better driver than Hamilton. I know I certainly never did and that includes the 4 year period of domination by Vettel and Red Bull. I'd actually be interested to see which forumers ever had Vettel pegged as a better driver than Hamilton. Just out of curiosity.

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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by Exediron »

sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:Contrast that to post Italy when Leclerc was confirmed and I legitimately saw a lot of people saying they should have dropped Vettel instead. Running a poll on a drivers stock is largely influenced by the last 5 races IMO.
It's all relative. What you've described are largely sentiments from casual fans. My sense is that most knowledgeable fans have never honestly thought that Vettel was a better driver than Hamilton. I know I certainly never did and that includes the 4 year period of domination by Vettel and Red Bull. I'd actually be interested to see which forumers ever had Vettel pegged as a better driver than Hamilton. Just out of curiosity.
At the end of 2013, I thought there was a real chance he was. I also thought we'd have to see him up against a competitive teammate and outside the best car before we'd get a full picture, but there were some performances in 2013 that were too commanding to write down as simply the car. He seemed a driver with no weakness at that time.

I wouldn't have thought it was a silly idea that he might be better than Lewis at the end of 2013, and neither did anyone who was neutral on the issue. To be perfectly honest, at that point in time I thought Hamilton was overrated by his fans and hadn't achieved to his potential.
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by Mort Canard »

sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Exediron wrote: Probably. After 2014 his stock crashed, but people were willing to write it off as a one-time occurrence - he was trying to leave the team, or he was burned out after winning four in a row, or he was't motivated when the car wasn't title-capable, etc.

But after two seasons of facing Hamilton in relatively equal machinery, there's no doubt in most people's minds any longer: Vettel is not at Hamilton's level over a whole season. His stock will, in my opinion, never recover to the heights it was at post-2013, even if he wins the title for Ferrari in the future.

At the same time, Leclerc's stock has shot upwards faster than a dotcom stock in the late 1990s. That crossover is manifested in this thread, where Leclerc's stock has actually already reached a point higher than Vettel's plummeting valuation.
I also think F1 fans in general have very short memories. Beginning of the season I remember seeing a lot of Vettel>Hamilton sentiment when Hamilton wasn't performing that well against Bottas and Vettel was setting lots of pole positions (despite having a car advantage).

Contrast that to post Italy when Leclerc was confirmed and I legitimately saw a lot of people saying they should have dropped Vettel instead. Running a poll on a drivers stock is largely influenced by the last 5 races IMO.
It's all relative. What you've described are largely sentiments from casual fans. My sense is that most knowledgeable fans have never honestly thought that Vettel was a better driver than Hamilton. I know I certainly never did and that includes the 4 year period of domination by Vettel and Red Bull. I'd actually be interested to see which forumers ever had Vettel pegged as a better driver than Hamilton. Just out of curiosity.
Check out the "Who will end their career with the most wins thread. The pole was started in 2014 and Sebastian still leads the voting.
http://forum.planet-f1.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10802

In 2014 Seb had just come off his run of consecutive championships but Mercedes was showing new found dominance. The first half dozen pages have some posts that are really a hoot. Some folks had pretty good guesses and some predicted that Sebastian would get a lot more victories than even Schumacher! :lol:

It does show how short the memories of many are. :nod:

P.S. Next year Vettel will have to contend with Leclerc. I am hoping that in 2020 Lewis will have to drive against a hot young contender like Ocon, Russell, Norris, Gasly, or others who will challenge him in a way that Valtteri has not done this year so far.
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by pokerman »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:Gosh Seb’s stock is at an all time low!
Probably. After 2014 his stock crashed, but people were willing to write it off as a one-time occurrence - he was trying to leave the team, or he was burned out after winning four in a row, or he was't motivated when the car wasn't title-capable, etc.

But after two seasons of facing Hamilton in relatively equal machinery, there's no doubt in most people's minds any longer: Vettel is not at Hamilton's level over a whole season. His stock will, in my opinion, never recover to the heights it was at post-2013, even if he wins the title for Ferrari in the future.

At the same time, Leclerc's stock has shot upwards faster than a dotcom stock in the late 1990s. That crossover is manifested in this thread, where Leclerc's stock has actually already reached a point higher than Vettel's plummeting valuation.
I also think F1 fans in general have very short memories. Beginning of the season I remember seeing a lot of Vettel>Hamilton sentiment when Hamilton wasn't performing that well against Bottas and Vettel was setting lots of pole positions (despite having a car advantage).

Contrast that to post Italy when Leclerc was confirmed and I legitimately saw a lot of people saying they should have dropped Vettel instead. Running a poll on a drivers stock is largely influenced by the last 5 races IMO.
You think the examples are comparable and it's only the last 5 races that Vettel has been messing up:-

Race 4 Baku - Locked up and destroyed his tyres at the SC restart
Race 8 France - Crashed into Bottas and had to pit for a new front wing also got a 5 second penalty
Race 9 Austria - Blocked Sainz in qualifying and got a 3 place grid penalty
Race 11 Germany - Crashed out from the lead of the race
Race 14 Italy - Spun on the first lap
Race 17 Japan - Qualified 9th and then crashed into Verstappen in the race
Race 18 Austin - 3 placed grid penalty for speeding under a red flag

Now list Hamilton's mistakes.
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by pokerman »

sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:Gosh Seb’s stock is at an all time low!
Probably. After 2014 his stock crashed, but people were willing to write it off as a one-time occurrence - he was trying to leave the team, or he was burned out after winning four in a row, or he was't motivated when the car wasn't title-capable, etc.

But after two seasons of facing Hamilton in relatively equal machinery, there's no doubt in most people's minds any longer: Vettel is not at Hamilton's level over a whole season. His stock will, in my opinion, never recover to the heights it was at post-2013, even if he wins the title for Ferrari in the future.

At the same time, Leclerc's stock has shot upwards faster than a dotcom stock in the late 1990s. That crossover is manifested in this thread, where Leclerc's stock has actually already reached a point higher than Vettel's plummeting valuation.
I also think F1 fans in general have very short memories. Beginning of the season I remember seeing a lot of Vettel>Hamilton sentiment when Hamilton wasn't performing that well against Bottas and Vettel was setting lots of pole positions (despite having a car advantage).

Contrast that to post Italy when Leclerc was confirmed and I legitimately saw a lot of people saying they should have dropped Vettel instead. Running a poll on a drivers stock is largely influenced by the last 5 races IMO.
It's all relative. What you've described are largely sentiments from casual fans. My sense is that most knowledgeable fans have never honestly thought that Vettel was a better driver than Hamilton. I know I certainly never did and that includes the 4 year period of domination by Vettel and Red Bull. I'd actually be interested to see which forumers ever had Vettel pegged as a better driver than Hamilton. Just out of curiosity.
I had Vettel as being better 2011-2013.
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by pokerman »

Mort Canard wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Exediron wrote: Probably. After 2014 his stock crashed, but people were willing to write it off as a one-time occurrence - he was trying to leave the team, or he was burned out after winning four in a row, or he was't motivated when the car wasn't title-capable, etc.

But after two seasons of facing Hamilton in relatively equal machinery, there's no doubt in most people's minds any longer: Vettel is not at Hamilton's level over a whole season. His stock will, in my opinion, never recover to the heights it was at post-2013, even if he wins the title for Ferrari in the future.

At the same time, Leclerc's stock has shot upwards faster than a dotcom stock in the late 1990s. That crossover is manifested in this thread, where Leclerc's stock has actually already reached a point higher than Vettel's plummeting valuation.
I also think F1 fans in general have very short memories. Beginning of the season I remember seeing a lot of Vettel>Hamilton sentiment when Hamilton wasn't performing that well against Bottas and Vettel was setting lots of pole positions (despite having a car advantage).

Contrast that to post Italy when Leclerc was confirmed and I legitimately saw a lot of people saying they should have dropped Vettel instead. Running a poll on a drivers stock is largely influenced by the last 5 races IMO.
It's all relative. What you've described are largely sentiments from casual fans. My sense is that most knowledgeable fans have never honestly thought that Vettel was a better driver than Hamilton. I know I certainly never did and that includes the 4 year period of domination by Vettel and Red Bull. I'd actually be interested to see which forumers ever had Vettel pegged as a better driver than Hamilton. Just out of curiosity.
Check out the "Who will end their career with the most wins thread. The pole was started in 2014 and Sebastian still leads the voting.
http://forum.planet-f1.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10802

In 2014 Seb had just come off his run of consecutive championships but Mercedes was showing new found dominance. The first half dozen pages have some posts that are really a hoot. Some folks had pretty good guesses and some predicted that Sebastian would get a lot more victories than even Schumacher! :lol:

It does show how short the memories of many are. :nod:

P.S. Next year Vettel will have to contend with Leclerc. I am hoping that in 2020 Lewis will have to drive against a hot young contender like Ocon, Russell, Norris, Gasly, or others who will challenge him in a way that Valtteri has not done this year so far.
That's because when it started Vettel had 12 more wins than Hamilton and Mercedes were only months into the start of their domination, In respect to Vettel still leading I daresay hardly anyone has been able to vote these past 3 years.
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:Gosh Seb’s stock is at an all time low!
Probably. After 2014 his stock crashed, but people were willing to write it off as a one-time occurrence - he was trying to leave the team, or he was burned out after winning four in a row, or he was't motivated when the car wasn't title-capable, etc.

But after two seasons of facing Hamilton in relatively equal machinery, there's no doubt in most people's minds any longer: Vettel is not at Hamilton's level over a whole season. His stock will, in my opinion, never recover to the heights it was at post-2013, even if he wins the title for Ferrari in the future.

At the same time, Leclerc's stock has shot upwards faster than a dotcom stock in the late 1990s. That crossover is manifested in this thread, where Leclerc's stock has actually already reached a point higher than Vettel's plummeting valuation.
I also think F1 fans in general have very short memories. Beginning of the season I remember seeing a lot of Vettel>Hamilton sentiment when Hamilton wasn't performing that well against Bottas and Vettel was setting lots of pole positions (despite having a car advantage).

Contrast that to post Italy when Leclerc was confirmed and I legitimately saw a lot of people saying they should have dropped Vettel instead. Running a poll on a drivers stock is largely influenced by the last 5 races IMO.
You think the examples are comparable and it's only the last 5 races that Vettel has been messing up:-

Race 4 Baku - Locked up and destroyed his tyres at the SC restart
Race 8 France - Crashed into Bottas and had to pit for a new front wing also got a 5 second penalty
Race 9 Austria - Blocked Sainz in qualifying and got a 3 place grid penalty
Race 11 Germany - Crashed out from the lead of the race
Race 14 Italy - Spun on the first lap
Race 17 Japan - Qualified 9th and then crashed into Verstappen in the race
Race 18 Austin - 3 placed grid penalty for speeding under a red flag

Now list Hamilton's mistakes.
No. Quite how you managed to read that from what I posted is beyond me.

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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by sandman1347 »

Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:Contrast that to post Italy when Leclerc was confirmed and I legitimately saw a lot of people saying they should have dropped Vettel instead. Running a poll on a drivers stock is largely influenced by the last 5 races IMO.
It's all relative. What you've described are largely sentiments from casual fans. My sense is that most knowledgeable fans have never honestly thought that Vettel was a better driver than Hamilton. I know I certainly never did and that includes the 4 year period of domination by Vettel and Red Bull. I'd actually be interested to see which forumers ever had Vettel pegged as a better driver than Hamilton. Just out of curiosity.
At the end of 2013, I thought there was a real chance he was. I also thought we'd have to see him up against a competitive teammate and outside the best car before we'd get a full picture, but there were some performances in 2013 that were too commanding to write down as simply the car. He seemed a driver with no weakness at that time.

I wouldn't have thought it was a silly idea that he might be better than Lewis at the end of 2013, and neither did anyone who was neutral on the issue. To be perfectly honest, at that point in time I thought Hamilton was overrated by his fans and hadn't achieved to his potential.
I suppose there can be a bit of a difference between people who have raced and people who haven't. I'm no pro but I do have some experience with racing and the eye test made it very clear to me that Hamilton was the better performer. Never thought otherwise to be honest and I know several people with a lot more knowledge and experience than me who had the same read on things. It's interesting to hear other people's thoughts on it though. (For the record I am not assuming that you have never raced)

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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by pokerman »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:Gosh Seb’s stock is at an all time low!
Probably. After 2014 his stock crashed, but people were willing to write it off as a one-time occurrence - he was trying to leave the team, or he was burned out after winning four in a row, or he was't motivated when the car wasn't title-capable, etc.

But after two seasons of facing Hamilton in relatively equal machinery, there's no doubt in most people's minds any longer: Vettel is not at Hamilton's level over a whole season. His stock will, in my opinion, never recover to the heights it was at post-2013, even if he wins the title for Ferrari in the future.

At the same time, Leclerc's stock has shot upwards faster than a dotcom stock in the late 1990s. That crossover is manifested in this thread, where Leclerc's stock has actually already reached a point higher than Vettel's plummeting valuation.
I also think F1 fans in general have very short memories. Beginning of the season I remember seeing a lot of Vettel>Hamilton sentiment when Hamilton wasn't performing that well against Bottas and Vettel was setting lots of pole positions (despite having a car advantage).

Contrast that to post Italy when Leclerc was confirmed and I legitimately saw a lot of people saying they should have dropped Vettel instead. Running a poll on a drivers stock is largely influenced by the last 5 races IMO.
You think the examples are comparable and it's only the last 5 races that Vettel has been messing up:-

Race 4 Baku - Locked up and destroyed his tyres at the SC restart
Race 8 France - Crashed into Bottas and had to pit for a new front wing also got a 5 second penalty
Race 9 Austria - Blocked Sainz in qualifying and got a 3 place grid penalty
Race 11 Germany - Crashed out from the lead of the race
Race 14 Italy - Spun on the first lap
Race 17 Japan - Qualified 9th and then crashed into Verstappen in the race
Race 18 Austin - 3 placed grid penalty for speeding under a red flag

Now list Hamilton's mistakes.
No. Quite how you managed to read that from what I posted is beyond me.
Let's put it another way then, the first few races of the season may have been viewed as Vettel performing better than Hamilton but not seen as Vettel being a better driver than Hamilton, it was seen more as Hamilton being off form.

What we are seeing now is Hamilton being defined as being a better driver than Vettel not because of the 5 race goldfish span of some forumers as you put it, but a 2 year sample of Hamilton being better than Vettel.
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Exediron
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by Exediron »

pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:No. Quite how you managed to read that from what I posted is beyond me.
Let's put it another way then, the first few races of the season may have been viewed as Vettel performing better than Hamilton but not seen as Vettel being a better driver than Hamilton, it was seen more as Hamilton being off form.

What we are seeing now is Hamilton being defined as being a better driver than Vettel not because of the 5 race goldfish span of some forumers as you put it, but a 2 year sample of Hamilton being better than Vettel.
Yeah, that's about how I'd see it. People thought Hamilton was performing worse expressly because of how highly he's thought of: failing to out-qualify Bottas and fight Vettel on equal terms means he's off form, not that he's worse.
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by sandman1347 »

I suppose an appropriate question to ask would be; what manner of heroics can restore Vettel's reputation at this point? A season like this will be hard to bounce back from and beating Charles will more likely impact Charles's reputation than Vettel's.

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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by Exediron »

sandman1347 wrote:I suppose an appropriate question to ask would be; what manner of heroics can restore Vettel's reputation at this point? A season like this will be hard to bounce back from and beating Charles will more likely impact Charles's reputation than Vettel's.
I think he can still aspire to a Prost-level reputation in the absolute maximum. If he bounces back from these years and defeats Hamilton in the next one or two years while the cars are still fairly equal (or especially if Mercedes is slightly ahead), he can be forgiven for letting these two slide. He might then reach a point of few considering him to be faster than Hamilton, but viewed as a worthy champion of the era alongside Lewis.

That's a big 'if', mind you, since I don't expect him to beat Lewis in an equal car any time. But if he does, I don't think it's all over. Otherwise, his reputation will probably end up more like Piquet - highly successful, but not rated as a great.
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by bourbon19 »

sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Exediron wrote:I'm going to go for...

Leclerc wins the qualifying battle, and is slightly ahead on points. I really feel Leclerc is the real deal, he's going to have the full support of Ferrari, and I see Seb as vulnerable.
Noooo freaking way!

If there are 2 things Vettel shines at, they're opening up a gap from the front and Qualifying!
Vettel will not only beat, but spank Leclerc in Qualy. In races Leclerc stands a chance of being close because of how tight things are likely going to be at the front which will result in contact and the kid might be perfectly lined up to swoop in and pick up the scraps. Outside of that Vettel will be Ferrari's top driver on merit.
I have a feeling you're going to have to eat these words.
I rather get the feeling you will have to eat this thread. I believe Sebastian will definitely come out on top, reliability permitting. You never know how these things will turn out. Would we have called Nico's success in 2016? or even his near success the year before? F1 is too unpredictable for that, but in a perfect world with your normal outcomes Seb would be ahead.

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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by AnRs »

sandman1347 wrote:I suppose an appropriate question to ask would be; what manner of heroics can restore Vettel's reputation at this point? A season like this will be hard to bounce back from and beating Charles will more likely impact Charles's reputation than Vettel's.
Could Lewis bounce back from 2007, 2010 and 2011 i suspect Vettel can, perhaps by being given a dominant car and a #2 teammate?

The butthurt Vettel has caused is hilarious : )

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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by sandman1347 »

AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:I suppose an appropriate question to ask would be; what manner of heroics can restore Vettel's reputation at this point? A season like this will be hard to bounce back from and beating Charles will more likely impact Charles's reputation than Vettel's.
Could Lewis bounce back from 2007, 2010 and 2011 i suspect Vettel can, perhaps by being given a dominant car and a #2 teammate?

The butthurt Vettel has caused is hilarious : )
What universe do you live in and how can you communicate with us from there?

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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by AnRs »

sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:I suppose an appropriate question to ask would be; what manner of heroics can restore Vettel's reputation at this point? A season like this will be hard to bounce back from and beating Charles will more likely impact Charles's reputation than Vettel's.
Could Lewis bounce back from 2007, 2010 and 2011 i suspect Vettel can, perhaps by being given a dominant car and a #2 teammate?

The butthurt Vettel has caused is hilarious : )
What universe do you live in and how can you communicate with us from there?
Sorry, my mistake, should not have tried to answer you, won't happen again.

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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by sandman1347 »

AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:I suppose an appropriate question to ask would be; what manner of heroics can restore Vettel's reputation at this point? A season like this will be hard to bounce back from and beating Charles will more likely impact Charles's reputation than Vettel's.
Could Lewis bounce back from 2007, 2010 and 2011 i suspect Vettel can, perhaps by being given a dominant car and a #2 teammate?

The butthurt Vettel has caused is hilarious : )
What universe do you live in and how can you communicate with us from there?
Sorry, my mistake, should not have tried to answer you, won't happen again.
Aww

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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by Clarky »

This is going to be so much fun to watch

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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by Option or Prime »

So how does Vettel turn it around them?

Is it down to him personally, so he goes away, has a holiday, or refocuses with his family, does a bit of training and perhaps gets a psychologist to re-set his mind set.
Then he goes back into the Ferrari environment with the same personnel, systems, machinery and technology and history. Is it his fault they underperformed or the teams?

LeClerc on the other hand has no history, its all new, exciting its the fastest kit he has seen, he has a different view and opinion on what is happening and just wan't to go for it.

I think it will be very difficult for SV next year, in my mind Ferrari need to lead they way but are they big enough to admit their part or they could end up like McLaren.

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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by Laz_T800 »

sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:I suppose an appropriate question to ask would be; what manner of heroics can restore Vettel's reputation at this point? A season like this will be hard to bounce back from and beating Charles will more likely impact Charles's reputation than Vettel's.
Could Lewis bounce back from 2007, 2010 and 2011 i suspect Vettel can, perhaps by being given a dominant car and a #2 teammate?

The butthurt Vettel has caused is hilarious : )
What universe do you live in and how can you communicate with us from there?
I thankfully don't usually see AnRs's posts.
I cannot believe anyone would suggest Hamilton had poor seasons in 2007 or 2010.
I'd love to see the reasoning but I fear there really isn't any and the post was just......... never mind.

On another point, is there a way to not see the posts of people who are blocked, when they are quoted.
I had to delete this response a few times to save me getting banned.

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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by Exediron »

Laz_T800 wrote:On another point, is there a way to not see the posts of people who are blocked, when they are quoted.
Sadly, no.
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by aice »

Laz_T800 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:I suppose an appropriate question to ask would be; what manner of heroics can restore Vettel's reputation at this point? A season like this will be hard to bounce back from and beating Charles will more likely impact Charles's reputation than Vettel's.
Could Lewis bounce back from 2007, 2010 and 2011 i suspect Vettel can, perhaps by being given a dominant car and a #2 teammate?

The butthurt Vettel has caused is hilarious : )
What universe do you live in and how can you communicate with us from there?
I thankfully don't usually see AnRs's posts.
I cannot believe anyone would suggest Hamilton had poor seasons in 2007 or 2010.
I'd love to see the reasoning but I fear there really isn't any and the post was just......... never mind.

On another point, is there a way to not see the posts of people who are blocked, when they are quoted.
I had to delete this response a few times to save me getting banned.
He has a point re 2011. Relatively, Hamilton was poor.

But i'm scratching my head at the inclusion of 2007 & 2010.

Hamilton had a stunning debut in 2007 (often regarded as one of the finest rookie seasons, ever). While in 2010, iirc, he made fewer mistakes than his chief title rivals (in a McLaren, that was debatably only 3rd fastest overall).

Although he didn't succeed in pulling off the 2007/2010 titles, his performances, per se,were generally viewed favourably e.g.https://www.racefans.net/2010/12/22/201 ... -four-3-1/
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by Laz_T800 »

aice wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:I suppose an appropriate question to ask would be; what manner of heroics can restore Vettel's reputation at this point? A season like this will be hard to bounce back from and beating Charles will more likely impact Charles's reputation than Vettel's.
Could Lewis bounce back from 2007, 2010 and 2011 i suspect Vettel can, perhaps by being given a dominant car and a #2 teammate?

The butthurt Vettel has caused is hilarious : )
What universe do you live in and how can you communicate with us from there?
I thankfully don't usually see AnRs's posts.
I cannot believe anyone would suggest Hamilton had poor seasons in 2007 or 2010.
I'd love to see the reasoning but I fear there really isn't any and the post was just......... never mind.

On another point, is there a way to not see the posts of people who are blocked, when they are quoted.
I had to delete this response a few times to save me getting banned.
He has a point re 2011. Relatively, Hamilton was poor.

But i'm scratching my head at the inclusion of 2007 & 2010.

Hamilton had a stunning debut in 2007 (often regarded as one of the finest rookie seasons, ever). While in 2010, iirc, he made fewer mistakes than his chief title rivals (in a McLaren, that was debatably only 3rd fastest overall).

Although he didn't succeed in pulling off the 2007/2010 titles, his performances, per se,were generally viewed favourably e.g.https://www.racefans.net/2010/12/22/201 ... -four-3-1/
Absolutely agree. Hamilton had a horrible 2011, he just made so many mistakes that year.
IMHO that was the kick up the butt he needed to go up a level. In fact, that level he was driving at in 2012 was possibly the highest he's raced at. Let down massively by team decisions, team mistakes and reliability.

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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by F1Tyrant »

I voted Charles by a hair for a few reasons:
  • 1. Leclerc has made an excellent showing in the Sauber with triple the points that Ericsson has.
    2. Vettel is extremely mentally fragile at the moment. 2014 will be playing on his mind.
    3. Webber and Raikkonen were long past their best (some would say "washed up") during Vettel's prime.
    4. Leclerc is a Ferrari darling and will receive extra favour much like Hamilton did in 2007.
    5. We've only seen Vettel show the mental strength for a close battle once at the 2012 Brazilian Grand Prix (and even then Schumacher uncharacteristically stepped aside). Every other time he has been absolutely dominant or utterly defeated.
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by pokerman »

AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:I suppose an appropriate question to ask would be; what manner of heroics can restore Vettel's reputation at this point? A season like this will be hard to bounce back from and beating Charles will more likely impact Charles's reputation than Vettel's.
Could Lewis bounce back from 2007, 2010 and 2011 i suspect Vettel can, perhaps by being given a dominant car and a #2 teammate?

The butthurt Vettel has caused is hilarious : )
2007 and 2010 seriously?
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