Vettel vs. Leclerc

Option or Prime · Post by **Option or Prime** » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:35 am

F1 Racer wrote: Kimi is definitely driving the same as he was the last few years, which means that Giovinazzi is not up to scratch, but that is fine as Schumacher Jr. needs to find his way into the sport somehow and Giovinazzi will help enable that.

What makes you think that Schumacher Jr. is any better than Giovinazzi?

DRIVER STANDINGS
POS DRIVER POINTS
1 Nyck de Vries 196
2 Nicholas Latifi 166
3 Sergio Sette Camara 141
4 Luca Ghiotto 135
5 Jack Aitken 134
6 Guanyu Zhou 107
7 Nobuharu Matsushita 85
8 Anthoine Hubert 77
9 Louis Deletraz 60
10 Jordan King 59
11 Mick Schumacher 45

pokerman · Post by **pokerman** » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:02 pm

Exediron wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:Sainz is almost certainly driving the same as he's always been, a competent journeyman. There is no reason to think that he has found a tonne of pace and taken his driving to a different level that he wasn't capable of before. Therefore Norris is about the same as him and maybe has a ceiling slightly higher than Sainz but that's about it and he will almost certainly never become world champion.
Norris is a 19-year old rookie. If you don't offer rookies a chance to improve, then clearly you think Max isn't world championship material either - he wasn't much faster than Sainz in his first season, and that was when Sainz was himself a rookie. Max actually lost that qualifying battle, whereas Norris is looking likely to win it.

Yeah a bit too early to make that kind of judgement about Norris.

pokerman · Post by **pokerman** » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:06 pm

Option or Prime wrote:
F1 Racer wrote: Kimi is definitely driving the same as he was the last few years, which means that Giovinazzi is not up to scratch, but that is fine as Schumacher Jr. needs to find his way into the sport somehow and Giovinazzi will help enable that.
What makes you think that Schumacher Jr. is any better than Giovinazzi?

DRIVER STANDINGS
POS DRIVER POINTS
1 Nyck de Vries 196
2 Nicholas Latifi 166
3 Sergio Sette Camara 141
4 Luca Ghiotto 135
5 Jack Aitken 134
6 Guanyu Zhou 107
7 Nobuharu Matsushita 85
8 Anthoine Hubert 77
9 Louis Deletraz 60
10 Jordan King 59
11 Mick Schumacher 45

I don't think Schumacher needs to prove he is better than Giovinazzi in order to replace him, of course I'm assuming that Giovinazzi continues to get beaten by Kimi.

F1 Racer · Post by **F1 Racer** » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:26 pm

Option or Prime wrote:
F1 Racer wrote: Kimi is definitely driving the same as he was the last few years, which means that Giovinazzi is not up to scratch, but that is fine as Schumacher Jr. needs to find his way into the sport somehow and Giovinazzi will help enable that.
What makes you think that Schumacher Jr. is any better than Giovinazzi?

I don't necessarily think he is better or worse, I have no idea if he is or not, but I am making the assumption that Schumacher Jr. will be forced into F1 at some point just like Piquet Jr. and Bruno Senna were. Even though both were terrible F1 drivers, their name got them in.

F1 Racer · Post by **F1 Racer** » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:41 pm

mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Todd wrote:Does anyone understand why tired old slow Raikkonen is one of the best drivers this year?
One of the best because he's beating Giovinazzi?

Kimi is having a good season but how good is the Alfa, Sainz and Norris are apparently the 3rd and 6th best drivers, how good is the McLaren?
Sainz is almost certainly driving the same as he's always been, a competent journeyman. There is no reason to think that he has found a tonne of pace and taken his driving to a different level that he wasn't capable of before. Therefore Norris is about the same as him and maybe has a ceiling slightly higher than Sainz but that's about it and he will almost certainly never become world champion.

Kimi is definitely driving the same as he was the last few years, which means that Giovinazzi is not up to scratch, but that is fine as Schumacher Jr. needs to find his way into the sport somehow and Giovinazzi will help enable that.
Do you know how rare it is for rookies to outscore experienced team mates?

Only two on the current grid managed that.

We know from other threads how easy it is for a driver to make a difference in Formula One and how someone like Hamilton stands head and shoulders above a competent driver in Bottas. Therefore the platform is there for rookies to be showing up other competent drivers if they are indeed good enough to have WDC potential, (I think most agree that someone like Bottas will not be a WDC winner unless they get a very lucky set of circumstances occurring).

So Norris is showing that he could eventually be a Bottas type driver or maybe a bit better, but certainly not the kind of driver that will definitely be challenging for WDC's by force. If Norris was outqualifying Sainz 80%+ of the time or had say 70+ points in the WDC at the moment, then I would be taking notice of him as either of these goals are achievable for a driver that has a strong future in the sport. Just look at Russell easily beating an experienced driver in Kubica right from race one. Russell is at least making me take notice of him, even though he is further back in the pack and in worse equipment, and this is due to the more one-sided nature of the teammate comparison. Russell could be a great but there is the slight caveat that it could also be down to Kubica's injury, and so Russell's true potential will become known once he is racing someone more measurable, but so far so good.

Norris is competing against someone known and average/below average in Sainz, (an experienced Sainz was outqualified and outraced by Hulk in 2018 and Hulk is average and getting beaten by Danny Ric this year, and Hulk was evenly matched with Perez for many years etc. so Sainz cannot be that good if he lost so comprehensively to Hulk). Norris should be putting Sainz away if he is to be worth getting excited about, but he's not, Sainz is easily beating him at the moment.

Option or Prime · Post by **Option or Prime** » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:49 pm

F1 Racer wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
F1 Racer wrote: Kimi is definitely driving the same as he was the last few years, which means that Giovinazzi is not up to scratch, but that is fine as Schumacher Jr. needs to find his way into the sport somehow and Giovinazzi will help enable that.
What makes you think that Schumacher Jr. is any better than Giovinazzi?

I don't necessarily think he is better or worse, I have no idea if he is or not, but I am making the assumption that Schumacher Jr. will be forced into F1 at some point just like Piquet Jr. and Bruno Senna were. Even though both were terrible F1 drivers, their name got them in.

So he will be Stroll 2 then. Name any other sport where money gets you on the same field as natural talent. In football, golf, rugby, American football, cricket etc. you would be a laughing stock. Leclerc. Albon, Norris even Gasly are all there on merit. IMV F1 needs have the best drivers and not give in to nepotism.

F1 Racer · Post by **F1 Racer** » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:58 pm

Option or Prime wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
F1 Racer wrote: Kimi is definitely driving the same as he was the last few years, which means that Giovinazzi is not up to scratch, but that is fine as Schumacher Jr. needs to find his way into the sport somehow and Giovinazzi will help enable that.
What makes you think that Schumacher Jr. is any better than Giovinazzi?

I don't necessarily think he is better or worse, I have no idea if he is or not, but I am making the assumption that Schumacher Jr. will be forced into F1 at some point just like Piquet Jr. and Bruno Senna were. Even though both were terrible F1 drivers, their name got them in.
So he will be Stroll 2 then. Name any other sport where money gets you on the same field as natural talent. In football, golf, rugby, American football, cricket etc. you would be a laughing stock. Leclerc. Albon, Norris even Gasly are all there on merit. IMV F1 needs have the best drivers and not give in to nepotism.

Yeah of course. I think it is silly that they get in too, purely due to their name, but Schumacher Jr. will only be able to stay in F1 if he is competitive, so it isn't the end of the world that their name gives them a helping hand for entry into the sport as they still need to survive on their own talent once they actually get to F1.

Johnson · Post by **Johnson** » Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:14 pm

F1 Racer wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
F1 Racer wrote: Kimi is definitely driving the same as he was the last few years, which means that Giovinazzi is not up to scratch, but that is fine as Schumacher Jr. needs to find his way into the sport somehow and Giovinazzi will help enable that.
What makes you think that Schumacher Jr. is any better than Giovinazzi?

I don't necessarily think he is better or worse, I have no idea if he is or not, but I am making the assumption that Schumacher Jr. will be forced into F1 at some point just like Piquet Jr. and Bruno Senna were. Even though both were terrible F1 drivers, their name got them in.

Piquet junior battled Hamilton for the GP2 title, admittedly it was his 2nd season though. Yes he got mauled by Alonso but so did Raikkonen, Grosjean, Fisichella, Stoffel and Massa to a slightly lesser degree.

pokerman · Post by **pokerman** » Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:16 pm

Option or Prime wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
F1 Racer wrote: Kimi is definitely driving the same as he was the last few years, which means that Giovinazzi is not up to scratch, but that is fine as Schumacher Jr. needs to find his way into the sport somehow and Giovinazzi will help enable that.
What makes you think that Schumacher Jr. is any better than Giovinazzi?

I don't necessarily think he is better or worse, I have no idea if he is or not, but I am making the assumption that Schumacher Jr. will be forced into F1 at some point just like Piquet Jr. and Bruno Senna were. Even though both were terrible F1 drivers, their name got them in.
So he will be Stroll 2 then. Name any other sport where money gets you on the same field as natural talent. In football, golf, rugby, American football, cricket etc. you would be a laughing stock. Leclerc. Albon, Norris even Gasly are all there on merit. IMV F1 needs have the best drivers and not give in to nepotism.

I've seen it happen in football with managers signing up their own sons.

pokerman · Post by **pokerman** » Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:18 pm

Johnson wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
F1 Racer wrote: Kimi is definitely driving the same as he was the last few years, which means that Giovinazzi is not up to scratch, but that is fine as Schumacher Jr. needs to find his way into the sport somehow and Giovinazzi will help enable that.
What makes you think that Schumacher Jr. is any better than Giovinazzi?

I don't necessarily think he is better or worse, I have no idea if he is or not, but I am making the assumption that Schumacher Jr. will be forced into F1 at some point just like Piquet Jr. and Bruno Senna were. Even though both were terrible F1 drivers, their name got them in.
Piquet junior battled Hamilton for the GP2 title, admittedly it was his 2nd season though. Yes he got mauled by Alonso but so did Grosjean, Fisichella, Stoffel and Massa to a slightly lesser degree.

Plus Bruno Senna also finished 2nd in GP2, they both qualified for the right to drive in F1.

mikeyg123 · Post by **mikeyg123** » Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:32 pm

Option or Prime wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
F1 Racer wrote: Kimi is definitely driving the same as he was the last few years, which means that Giovinazzi is not up to scratch, but that is fine as Schumacher Jr. needs to find his way into the sport somehow and Giovinazzi will help enable that.
What makes you think that Schumacher Jr. is any better than Giovinazzi?

I don't necessarily think he is better or worse, I have no idea if he is or not, but I am making the assumption that Schumacher Jr. will be forced into F1 at some point just like Piquet Jr. and Bruno Senna were. Even though both were terrible F1 drivers, their name got them in.
So he will be Stroll 2 then. Name any other sport where money gets you on the same field as natural talent. In football, golf, rugby, American football, cricket etc. you would be a laughing stock. Leclerc. Albon, Norris even Gasly are all there on merit. IMV F1 needs have the best drivers and not give in to nepotism.

Latiffi will be Stroll 2. The likes of Schumacher will get a chance but won't stick around if they fail. Stroll and Latiffi will be around as long as their fathers pay the bills.

Johnson · Post by **Johnson** » Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:06 pm

It’s stating too look like Verstappen vs Ricciardo now. The young driver joining the team and taking a while to completely get up to speed. Leclerc is Ferrari’s future, if Ferrari had Raikkonen and Vettel, Hamilton wins today and Mercedes look dominant with a 1-2.

Six straight qualifying sessions ahead and off weekends starting to reduce, Leclerc will be number 1 shortly.

Mort Canard · Post by **Mort Canard** » Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:40 pm

After Spa Vettel leads Leclerc 169 - 157, or 12 points. This is right where most of the poll has the season going. OTOH young Charles seems to have the momentum with 8 races to go in the season.

I believe it will be very close but it could easily be a coin flip as to who wins this teammate battle.

sandman1347 · Post by **sandman1347** » Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:43 pm

Mort Canard wrote:After Spa Vettel leads Leclerc 169 - 157, or 12 points. This is right where most of the poll has the season going. OTOH young Charles seems to have the momentum with 8 races to go in the season.

I believe it will be very close but it could easily be a coin flip as to who wins this teammate battle.

I think next weekend is huge. That's another race where you would expect Ferrari to be strong. It's another opportunity for a win. So far, on the tracks where they have had the outright pace advantage; Charles has almost always been the quicker of the two (Canada being perhaps the one exception). I think they'll lock out the front row again and Vettel will be hard-pressed to beat Charles.

Invade · Post by **Invade** » Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:46 pm

I thought Vettel would beat Leclerc this season but at this point Charles just looks faster and it will only improve in the races going forward for the most part. I think Seb has more than his work cut out.

Badgeronimous · Post by **Badgeronimous** » Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:18 pm

Option or Prime wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
F1 Racer wrote: Kimi is definitely driving the same as he was the last few years, which means that Giovinazzi is not up to scratch, but that is fine as Schumacher Jr. needs to find his way into the sport somehow and Giovinazzi will help enable that.
What makes you think that Schumacher Jr. is any better than Giovinazzi?

I don't necessarily think he is better or worse, I have no idea if he is or not, but I am making the assumption that Schumacher Jr. will be forced into F1 at some point just like Piquet Jr. and Bruno Senna were. Even though both were terrible F1 drivers, their name got them in.
So he will be Stroll 2 then. Name any other sport where money gets you on the same field as natural talent. In football, golf, rugby, American football, cricket etc. you would be a laughing stock. Leclerc. Albon, Norris even Gasly are all there on merit. IMV F1 needs have the best drivers and not give in to nepotism.

Motorsport is possibly the most entrenched sport for nepotism from the grass roots up. Compared to say almost every other sport, the % of kids that would like to try motorsport vs the % of kids that even have the option of a path into motorsport is absolutely miniscule. To even have a chance at motorsport you need the stars to align, and thats before even considering talent.

TBH money or connections will get you further than talent ever will, with a few exceptions.

Exediron · Post by **Exediron** » Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:03 am

I think this is the first weekend where I completely got the feeling from Ferrari that Leclerc is the #1 driver -- even somewhat from Vettel.

Option or Prime · Post by **Option or Prime** » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:01 am

Exediron wrote:I think this is the first weekend where I completely got the feeling from Ferrari that Leclerc is the #1 driver -- even somewhat from Vettel.

Have to agree, the call to "let Charles through" was accepted by Vettel quite meekly and SV was very despondent after the race. Seems the precedent has been set. The next race will be critical though as CL has to prove it was not just a "one off".

pokerman · Post by **pokerman** » Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:07 pm

Exediron wrote:I think this is the first weekend where I completely got the feeling from Ferrari that Leclerc is the #1 driver -- even somewhat from Vettel.

No it was a needs must basis, Ferrari knew they couldn't win the race with Vettel.

pokerman · Post by **pokerman** » Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:10 pm

Option or Prime wrote:
Exediron wrote:I think this is the first weekend where I completely got the feeling from Ferrari that Leclerc is the #1 driver -- even somewhat from Vettel.
Have to agree, the call to "let Charles through" was accepted by Vettel quite meekly and SV was very despondent after the race. Seems the precedent has been set. The next race will be critical though as CL has to prove it was not just a "one off".

Vettel accepted it because he knew he had been given the unfair undercut on Leclerc, also he would have known he would be quite powerless to stop Leclerc from passing him anyway.

Yellowbin74 · Post by **Yellowbin74** » Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:20 pm

pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:I think this is the first weekend where I completely got the feeling from Ferrari that Leclerc is the #1 driver -- even somewhat from Vettel.
No it was a needs must basis, Ferrari knew they couldn't win the race with Vettel.

And they were right - if Seb had held Charles up at all, Lewis would have nailed him at the end of the race.

I'm not saying they now favor Charles, but they HAD to win this race so did the only sensible thing.

I still think that Seb will have more points come the end of the season, but this could be the cork out of the bottle for Charles if he can cut out the small mistakes.

Exediron · Post by **Exediron** » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:14 pm

pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:I think this is the first weekend where I completely got the feeling from Ferrari that Leclerc is the #1 driver -- even somewhat from Vettel.
No it was a needs must basis, Ferrari knew they couldn't win the race with Vettel.

You have to remember that for me '#1 driver' is not a dirty term. I just mean they see Leclerc as their lead driver and focus on getting him the best result.

FormulaFun · Post by **FormulaFun** » Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:44 am

Option or Prime wrote:
Exediron wrote:I think this is the first weekend where I completely got the feeling from Ferrari that Leclerc is the #1 driver -- even somewhat from Vettel.
Have to agree, the call to "let Charles through" was accepted by Vettel quite meekly and SV was very despondent after the race. Seems the precedent has been set. The next race will be critical though as CL has to prove it was not just a "one off".

He already has, he has done it 3 times now and I think he will do it again in Monza based on current form

pokerman · Post by **pokerman** » Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:36 pm

Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:I think this is the first weekend where I completely got the feeling from Ferrari that Leclerc is the #1 driver -- even somewhat from Vettel.
No it was a needs must basis, Ferrari knew they couldn't win the race with Vettel.
You have to remember that for me '#1 driver' is not a dirty term. I just mean they see Leclerc as their lead driver and focus on getting him the best result.

I don't believe Leclerc is the #1 driver, on the day they just backed who they saw was the quickest driver.

-K- · Post by **-K-** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:06 am

I’m going for a narrow win by Leclerc. I can see more mistakes creeping in for Seb as Charles starts to close the points gap.

sandman1347 · Post by **sandman1347** » Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:32 pm

-K- wrote:I’m going for a narrow win by Leclerc. I can see more mistakes creeping in for Seb as Charles starts to close the points gap.

Pretty much summed up this last race

Mort Canard · Post by **Mort Canard** » Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:34 pm

Well with two races to go this contest is looking interesting. Totals after Austin are Charles Leclerc -249 and Sebastian Vettel has 230 after a DNF in Austin. While nineteen points can be made up, I am wondering if Ferrari is going to be more concerned with keeping Charles ahead of Max who is at 235 pts. currently.

I originally voted "Vettel will win but it will be close". Looks like it still will be fairly close with the advantage going to young Charles.

TheGiantHogweed · Post by **TheGiantHogweed** » Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:40 pm

Well, now Vettel has had two DNFs that were not his fault and 1 likely loosing him a win (without stupid team orders), I think the current points difference that both have are fair to judge now. Lclerc has missed out due to the team helping Vettel several times and lost another 10 points in Bahrain. I'd say they have both lost between 35 - 50 points due to bad luck.

Currently, I think vettel overall seems to have started looking the better of the two on race day. The same at the start of the season. But qualifying most of the time, Leclerc really seems great here. And a good deal of the races too.

pokerman · Post by **pokerman** » Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:17 am

I think generally we got it right, 77% said it would be close, I edged it to Vettel but it looks like Leclerc will just come out in front.

Invade · Post by **Invade** » Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:01 am

Leclerc surpassed my expectations, though Vettel also fell below them.

I expect Leclerc to continue to move onwards and upwards in 2020. He's still got plenty to work on regarding his race management.

F1 Racer · Post by **F1 Racer** » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:31 am

Invade wrote:Leclerc surpassed my expectations, though Vettel also fell below them.

I expect Leclerc to continue to move onwards and upwards in 2020. He's still got plenty to work on regarding his race management.

To be honest, Vettel's been performing sloppily for a number of years now, while also showing flashes of incredible speed of course. I think he lets other drivers get in his head too much, particularly Lewis, and he just seems to come off worse whenever he battles with the other front running drivers.

Leclerc's performances last year made me realise he was going to be a great and he has not surprised me at all this year.

Mercedes-Benz · Post by **Mercedes-Benz** » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:41 am

Charles will win this battle as he is 19pts ahead with 2 races to go. But honestly Vettel has had some horrible races like crashing into Max in Silverstone, spin in Monza was embarrassing as well. He has had more DNF as well. I also think Vettel and Hamilton who are usually one of the best in qualifying have had pretty average this year.

F1 Racer · Post by **F1 Racer** » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:49 am

Mercedes-Benz wrote:Charles will win this battle as he is 19pts ahead with 2 races to go. But honestly Vettel has had some horrible races like crashing into Max in Silverstone, spin in Monza was embarrassing as well. He has had more DNF as well. I also think Vettel and Hamilton who are usually one of the best in qualifying have had pretty average this year.

I think Leclerc is getting past his rookie mistake phase as well so next year he will deliver strong performances more consistently, meaning that Vettel will be even more up against it than this year.

pokerman · Post by **pokerman** » Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:19 pm

Mercedes-Benz wrote:Charles will win this battle as he is 19pts ahead with 2 races to go. But honestly Vettel has had some horrible races like crashing into Max in Silverstone, spin in Monza was embarrassing as well. He has had more DNF as well. I also think Vettel and Hamilton who are usually one of the best in qualifying have had pretty average this year.

Hamilton is a bit below his best in qualifying but Vettel is simply up against a better driver like he was against Ricciardo, as a measure of Kimi he's presently hardly any quicker than Giovinazzi in qualifying.

mikeyg123 · Post by **mikeyg123** » Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:20 pm

pokerman wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:Charles will win this battle as he is 19pts ahead with 2 races to go. But honestly Vettel has had some horrible races like crashing into Max in Silverstone, spin in Monza was embarrassing as well. He has had more DNF as well. I also think Vettel and Hamilton who are usually one of the best in qualifying have had pretty average this year.
Hamilton is a bit below his best in qualifying but Vettel is simply up against a better driver like he was against Ricciardo, as a measure of Kimi he's presently hardly any quicker than Giovinazzi in qualifying.

Not much of a measure. Giovinazzi could be a world class qualifier for all we know.

F1 MERCENARY · Post by **F1 MERCENARY** » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:31 pm

Mercedes-Benz wrote:Charles will win this battle as he is 19pts ahead with 2 races to go. But honestly Vettel has had some horrible races like crashing into Max in Silverstone, spin in Monza was embarrassing as well. He has had more DNF as well. I also think Vettel and Hamilton who are usually one of the best in qualifying have had pretty average this year.

Hamilton has not been average in qualy this year, The Ferrari has been a better car with great drivers, and Hamilton has squeaked out some poles and wins where it was thought they didn't have a shot, while his teammate floundered about back in the order.

2-3 months ago it looked as though Leclerc got under Vettel's skin and was outperforming him, but Vettel has showed his maturity in reeling in his younger hotshot teammate and has IMPO shown he's better. Taxas was telling of how keen and sensitive Vettel is on ascertaining the feel of a car when the race started and he was slower than he'd been all weekend, and immediately felt the under steer even before his team could see it via telemetry. Then the right rear broke. I'm betting there were fractures on the right rear that were probably formed during Q3 and went unnoticed by the team.

If I were starting a team, I'd still take Vettel over Leclerc at this time.

sandman1347 · Post by **sandman1347** » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:45 pm

pokerman wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:Charles will win this battle as he is 19pts ahead with 2 races to go. But honestly Vettel has had some horrible races like crashing into Max in Silverstone, spin in Monza was embarrassing as well. He has had more DNF as well. I also think Vettel and Hamilton who are usually one of the best in qualifying have had pretty average this year.
Hamilton is a bit below his best in qualifying but Vettel is simply up against a better driver like he was against Ricciardo, as a measure of Kimi he's presently hardly any quicker than Giovinazzi in qualifying.

I think it's entirely possible that Hamilton has finally reached the stage in his career where his outright single lap pace is just beginning to diminish. That might be a premature statement and it might just be that this was a slightly down year for him in qualifying but Valteri was generally more competitive on Saturdays this year than he has been in the past and, if I recall correctly, 2003 was about the time I first started to feel like Michael might be on the down-swing too (he was also 34 that year). I'd say 2018 was Hamilton at the peak of his powers and, IMO, he hasn't quite matched that level overall this year.

Oddly, somehow 33 seems to be the age that a lot of the legendary drivers reached their absolute peak. Was Michael ever better than 2002? Was Senna ever better than 1993?

TheGiantHogweed · Post by **TheGiantHogweed** » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:57 pm

Mercedes-Benz wrote:Charles will win this battle as he is 19pts ahead with 2 races to go. But honestly Vettel has had some horrible races like crashing into Max in Silverstone, spin in Monza was embarrassing as well. He has had more DNF as well. I also think Vettel and Hamilton who are usually one of the best in qualifying have had pretty average this year.

They were not his fault though. Without team orders, vettel lost a win with a DNF in Russia and a likely 5th place at the last race with a DNF. Leclerc has had 2 DNFs with himself totally to blame.

F1 MERCENARY · Post by **F1 MERCENARY** » Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:01 pm

Nah, Hamilton is still blindingly fast over a single lap as well as complete race distances. Hasn't lost a step. the Mercedes this year seems to be difficult to set up just how he prefers on most weekends and he's still managed to snatch pole from the clutches of the Ferraris as well as race wins. You have to keep in mind that with the tires being as cruddy as they are, what he did in Mexico and almost pulled off at COTA is thought to be damn near impossible. He made the tires last incredible distances while still pushing close to the limit.

sandman1347 · Post by **sandman1347** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:45 am

F1 MERCENARY wrote:Nah, Hamilton is still blindingly fast over a single lap as well as complete race distances. Hasn't lost a step. the Mercedes this year seems to be difficult to set up just how he prefers on most weekends and he's still managed to snatch pole from the clutches of the Ferraris as well as race wins. You have to keep in mind that with the tires being as cruddy as they are, what he did in Mexico and almost pulled off at COTA is thought to be damn near impossible. He made the tires last incredible distances while still pushing close to the limit.

Mexico and COTA were both brilliant and he is very much still at his peak on race day. I think that COTA was a poor qualifying performance though and if you compare 2019 to his previous several years, it is decidedly less impressive from the standpoint of qualifying alone. Like I said, it might just be a slightly down year. I never suggested he lost a step. If anything maybe just a half step and only in qualifying. If he has then at this stage, he is more than able to make up for it with his added experience and savvy.

How will Vettel/Leclerc Compare