Vettel vs. Leclerc

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How will Vettel/Leclerc Compare

Vettel will win by a mile
18
19%
Vettel will win but it will be close
45
48%
Leclerc will win but it will be close
28
30%
Leclerc will win by a mile
3
3%
 
Total votes: 94

FormulaFun
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by FormulaFun »

pokerman wrote:Clearly Ferrari screwed his race the day before but I'm not much impressed by Leclerc saying he didn't care if he crashed given that's exactly what he did.
When did he say this?

All I saw him say was he would have to make very aggressive overtakes and risk a crash,.which is a fact really

Rockie
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by Rockie »

pokerman wrote:Clearly Ferrari screwed his race the day before but I'm not much impressed by Leclerc saying he didn't care if he crashed given that's exactly what he did.
Ferrari ruined his qualifying agreed, but he destroyed his race himself.

TheGiantHogweed
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:Clearly Ferrari screwed his race the day before but I'm not much impressed by Leclerc saying he didn't care if he crashed given that's exactly what he did.
Ferrari ruined his qualifying agreed, but he destroyed his race himself.
Well, he sort of did what Hamilton did in 2017. Did not perform at a really important time. But instead of someone crashing preventing from him improving, the team thought he had done enough. But he's still got himself to blame a little for not getting in a good lap and then missing the weigh bridge.



I found one very interesting fact i found out this morning when looking back at the history of finises in Monaco. In all 64 races since Monaco began, there have always been retirements. The minimum until this race was 3. Usually well over that, often being over a 3rd of the grid. Only Leclerc retired this race so it could have been the first time in history all drivers finished this race. And he prevented this in a way that was totally avoidable. It wasn't a small mistake that made him retire. It was a decision that he made despite having a lot of time to think about it and prevent the damage from happening. The contact and puncture wasn't that bad. The manner in which he drove back was the worst I've seen in ages. Probably the most stupid reason for retiring from any driver in quite some time given the time he had to think about it. It wasn't just a brief loss of concentration, it was 100% avoidable. The fact that he was slowly making the damage to his car worse and worse showed he had time to prevent all this, but he didn't. Very poor driving.

Zoue
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by Zoue »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:Clearly Ferrari screwed his race the day before but I'm not much impressed by Leclerc saying he didn't care if he crashed given that's exactly what he did.
Ferrari ruined his qualifying agreed, but he destroyed his race himself.
Well, he sort of did what Hamilton did in 2017. Did not perform at a really important time. But instead of someone crashing preventing from him improving, the team thought he had done enough. But he's still got himself to blame a little for not getting in a good lap and then missing the weigh bridge.



I found one very interesting fact i found out this morning when looking back at the history of finises in Monaco. In all 64 races since Monaco began, there have always been retirements. The minimum until this race was 3. Usually well over that, often being over a 3rd of the grid. Only Leclerc retired this race so it could have been the first time in history all drivers finished this race. And he prevented this in a way that was totally avoidable. It wasn't a small mistake that made him retire. It was a decision that he made despite having a lot of time to think about it and prevent the damage from happening. The contact and puncture wasn't that bad. The manner in which he drove back was the worst I've seen in ages. Probably the most stupid reason for retiring from any driver in quite some time given the time he had to think about it. It wasn't just a brief loss of concentration, it was 100% avoidable. The fact that he was slowly making the damage to his car worse and worse showed he had time to prevent all this, but he didn't. Very poor driving.
What could he have done differently? He had to drive a whole lap back to the pits so it was either that or pull over and retire anyway surely?

mikeyg123
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by mikeyg123 »

Zoue wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:Clearly Ferrari screwed his race the day before but I'm not much impressed by Leclerc saying he didn't care if he crashed given that's exactly what he did.
Ferrari ruined his qualifying agreed, but he destroyed his race himself.
Well, he sort of did what Hamilton did in 2017. Did not perform at a really important time. But instead of someone crashing preventing from him improving, the team thought he had done enough. But he's still got himself to blame a little for not getting in a good lap and then missing the weigh bridge.



I found one very interesting fact i found out this morning when looking back at the history of finises in Monaco. In all 64 races since Monaco began, there have always been retirements. The minimum until this race was 3. Usually well over that, often being over a 3rd of the grid. Only Leclerc retired this race so it could have been the first time in history all drivers finished this race. And he prevented this in a way that was totally avoidable. It wasn't a small mistake that made him retire. It was a decision that he made despite having a lot of time to think about it and prevent the damage from happening. The contact and puncture wasn't that bad. The manner in which he drove back was the worst I've seen in ages. Probably the most stupid reason for retiring from any driver in quite some time given the time he had to think about it. It wasn't just a brief loss of concentration, it was 100% avoidable. The fact that he was slowly making the damage to his car worse and worse showed he had time to prevent all this, but he didn't. Very poor driving.
What could he have done differently? He had to drive a whole lap back to the pits so it was either that or pull over and retire anyway surely?
Oh Leclerc's driving back to the pits was awful. Everyone knows you have to drive slowly back to the pits to stop the tyre doing what it did. He hammered it, drove at full pelt, blocked cars etc. He could've easily been a lot more sensible.

trento
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by trento »

FormulaFun wrote:
pokerman wrote:Clearly Ferrari screwed his race the day before but I'm not much impressed by Leclerc saying he didn't care if he crashed given that's exactly what he did.
When did he say this?


All I saw him say was he would have to make very aggressive overtakes and risk a crash,.which is a fact really
Considering the track and his grid position, that's his only option

trento
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by trento »

Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:Clearly Ferrari screwed his race the day before but I'm not much impressed by Leclerc saying he didn't care if he crashed given that's exactly what he did.
Ferrari ruined his qualifying agreed, but he destroyed his race himself.
Even if he didn't, the best he could get was p8. I doubt he cared for those points as he really should have been near the podium positions

Zoue
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by Zoue »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:Clearly Ferrari screwed his race the day before but I'm not much impressed by Leclerc saying he didn't care if he crashed given that's exactly what he did.
Ferrari ruined his qualifying agreed, but he destroyed his race himself.
Well, he sort of did what Hamilton did in 2017. Did not perform at a really important time. But instead of someone crashing preventing from him improving, the team thought he had done enough. But he's still got himself to blame a little for not getting in a good lap and then missing the weigh bridge.



I found one very interesting fact i found out this morning when looking back at the history of finises in Monaco. In all 64 races since Monaco began, there have always been retirements. The minimum until this race was 3. Usually well over that, often being over a 3rd of the grid. Only Leclerc retired this race so it could have been the first time in history all drivers finished this race. And he prevented this in a way that was totally avoidable. It wasn't a small mistake that made him retire. It was a decision that he made despite having a lot of time to think about it and prevent the damage from happening. The contact and puncture wasn't that bad. The manner in which he drove back was the worst I've seen in ages. Probably the most stupid reason for retiring from any driver in quite some time given the time he had to think about it. It wasn't just a brief loss of concentration, it was 100% avoidable. The fact that he was slowly making the damage to his car worse and worse showed he had time to prevent all this, but he didn't. Very poor driving.
What could he have done differently? He had to drive a whole lap back to the pits so it was either that or pull over and retire anyway surely?
Oh Leclerc's driving back to the pits was awful. Everyone knows you have to drive slowly back to the pits to stop the tyre doing what it did. He hammered it, drove at full pelt, blocked cars etc. He could've easily been a lot more sensible.
Yes that's fair enough I didn't realise he was going so quickly

pokerman
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by pokerman »

FormulaFun wrote:
pokerman wrote:Clearly Ferrari screwed his race the day before but I'm not much impressed by Leclerc saying he didn't care if he crashed given that's exactly what he did.
When did he say this?

All I saw him say was he would have to make very aggressive overtakes and risk a crash,.which is a fact really
Well if you are prepared to risk crashing is that not the same thing?
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Exediron
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by Exediron »

pokerman wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
pokerman wrote:Clearly Ferrari screwed his race the day before but I'm not much impressed by Leclerc saying he didn't care if he crashed given that's exactly what he did.
When did he say this?

All I saw him say was he would have to make very aggressive overtakes and risk a crash,.which is a fact really
Well if you are prepared to risk crashing is that not the same thing?
I don't think it's the same at all. There's a big difference between being prepared to crash to get into the points, and not caring if you crash. Leclerc knew he had to be aggressive if he was going to make anything out of the race; there is simply no other way to make up that many places in Monaco.

Personally, I think his overtake on Grosjean was very good, and he was unlucky with Hulk. The only thing he really did wrong was his driving with the puncture, which was silly and irresponsible.

I will point out, however, that Hamilton did the same thing in Spa 2014 after Rosberg hit him, and he certainly wasn't inexperienced -- just angry.
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Invade
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by Invade »

Ferrari are probably licking their chops at the point differential starting to build between their drivers. Any excuse to continue propping up Vettel (1/2 facetious 1/2 truth). Leclerc will have to really show what he's made of over the next few races.

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Black_Flag_11
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

Invade wrote:Ferrari are probably licking their chops at the point differential starting to build between their drivers. Any excuse to continue propping up Vettel (1/2 facetious 1/2 truth). Leclerc will have to really show what he's made of over the next few races.
Yeah I'm sure they're over the moon with how this season has panned out so far.

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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by Zoue »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Invade wrote:Ferrari are probably licking their chops at the point differential starting to build between their drivers. Any excuse to continue propping up Vettel (1/2 facetious 1/2 truth). Leclerc will have to really show what he's made of over the next few races.
Yeah I'm sure they're over the moon with how this season has panned out so far.
:lol:

AravJ
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by AravJ »

Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:Clearly Ferrari screwed his race the day before but I'm not much impressed by Leclerc saying he didn't care if he crashed given that's exactly what he did.
Ferrari ruined his qualifying agreed, but he destroyed his race himself.
He kinda played a part in ruining his qualifying too, made some mistakes in his first run.

mikeyg123
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by mikeyg123 »

AravJ wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:Clearly Ferrari screwed his race the day before but I'm not much impressed by Leclerc saying he didn't care if he crashed given that's exactly what he did.
Ferrari ruined his qualifying agreed, but he destroyed his race himself.
He kinda played a part in ruining his qualifying too, made some mistakes in his first run.
Yes, Ferrari aren't being helped by their drivers. It's taking both drivers and team to f**k up to cause a lot of these problems.

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Invade
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by Invade »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Invade wrote:Ferrari are probably licking their chops at the point differential starting to build between their drivers. Any excuse to continue propping up Vettel (1/2 facetious 1/2 truth). Leclerc will have to really show what he's made of over the next few races.
Yeah I'm sure they're over the moon with how this season has panned out so far.
Ye for sure.

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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
pokerman wrote:Clearly Ferrari screwed his race the day before but I'm not much impressed by Leclerc saying he didn't care if he crashed given that's exactly what he did.
When did he say this?

All I saw him say was he would have to make very aggressive overtakes and risk a crash,.which is a fact really
Well if you are prepared to risk crashing is that not the same thing?
I don't think it's the same at all. There's a big difference between being prepared to crash to get into the points, and not caring if you crash. Leclerc knew he had to be aggressive if he was going to make anything out of the race; there is simply no other way to make up that many places in Monaco.

Personally, I think his overtake on Grosjean was very good, and he was unlucky with Hulk. The only thing he really did wrong was his driving with the puncture, which was silly and irresponsible.

I will point out, however, that Hamilton did the same thing in Spa 2014 after Rosberg hit him, and he certainly wasn't inexperienced -- just angry.
Last year Verstappen started 20th and finished 9th, Leclerc was out of the race after 11 laps, I question his risk/reward mentality.
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by sandman1347 »

pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
pokerman wrote:Clearly Ferrari screwed his race the day before but I'm not much impressed by Leclerc saying he didn't care if he crashed given that's exactly what he did.
When did he say this?

All I saw him say was he would have to make very aggressive overtakes and risk a crash,.which is a fact really
Well if you are prepared to risk crashing is that not the same thing?
I don't think it's the same at all. There's a big difference between being prepared to crash to get into the points, and not caring if you crash. Leclerc knew he had to be aggressive if he was going to make anything out of the race; there is simply no other way to make up that many places in Monaco.

Personally, I think his overtake on Grosjean was very good, and he was unlucky with Hulk. The only thing he really did wrong was his driving with the puncture, which was silly and irresponsible.

I will point out, however, that Hamilton did the same thing in Spa 2014 after Rosberg hit him, and he certainly wasn't inexperienced -- just angry.
Last year Verstappen started 20th and finished 9th, Leclerc was out of the race after 11 laps, I question his risk/reward mentality.
I wouldn't get too carried away. He's in a bit of a negative streak at the moment. When you look at his races:

1. Australia-Charles made a mistake early on from 5th on the grid (maybe should have been 4th but Max was able to out-qualify him *although the Red Bull did look stronger in the race*) and dropped back off of the top 4. Late in the race, things came back to him a bit as Vettel was put on a bad strategy and was nursing his tires at the end. This is where the tough stuff starts as Charles was ordered not to attack Vettel despite being the quicker man on-track at the time. He was also denied a chance to go for fastest lap at the end despite having a safe gap behind him to pit for tires without losing a position. It was the first in a series of letdowns for Charles this year and I think it's starting to affect his mindset out there.

2. Bahrain-His best weekend so far. He showed dominant pace in qualifying; besting Vettel and Hamilton to take pole on a track where Ferrari looked very strong. In the race there was another letdown. After recovering from a poor start; Charles found himself in the lead after a commanding pass on Vettel. He gapped the field and was in total control when the car suffered a failure. To have his maiden victory slip from his grasp like that must have been rough and that was two races in a row with disappointment.

3. China-Another frustrating weekend. After narrowly being out-qualified by Vettel, Charles had a good start and was running third when the team imposed orders to let Vettel through. Vettel seemed quicker but when he went through, he wasn't able to either gain on the Mercs or gap Charles. Red Bull triggered the undercut and Max jumped Charles. Then Ferrari seemed to lose track of Charles and he was left out there on much slower tires and basically just fell out of contention; finishing 5th. A big disappointment.

4. Baku-This was a bad weekend for Charles. He showed signs of serious pace in free practice but then crashed in qualifying and cost himself dearly. He clawed his way through back to 5th but that was well below his potential for the weekend so it was yet another letdown. It must be said that Charles has made his share of mistakes this year and he will need to clean that up if he wants to become a champion some day. It's easy to forget that he's very young at 21 and only in his second season; so very inexperienced as well. I don't think the hiccups should be looked at too harshly at this stage. If he was slow; that would be a different story but he's been pretty quick all year so I can handle a few errors.

5. Spain-Another frustrating race with team orders and Ferrari getting things wrong and also another bad day at the office for Charles. At this point I think his form was truly suffering and he wasn't performing as well as he did earlier in the season. Another 5th place and anther disappointing day at the office.

6. Monaco-Now we get to the most recent race. I think it's clear that Charles went into this race having faced some manner of frustration and/or disappointment in every round thus far! He was desperate to break out of that and, Monaco being his home race, what could be a better place to do it? His pace in FP3 showed serious promise and I went into qualifying expecting him to make the second row at the very least. To have such a careless error made by the team to take him out of the most important qualifying session of the year must have been devastating. What a massive disappointment that was and I think the race became a formality after that. He might have been able to crawl through to 7th or 8th had he played his cards right but I understand the frustration he must have been feeling. He has really not maximized his results in any race this season and most of the time it's through no fault of his own.

shoot999
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by shoot999 »

Loads of stories propping up in the press about rumours in the paddock that Vettel is considering retiring at the end of the season. But the only source seems to be Saward.

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-auto ... s-Mercedes

Siao7
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by Siao7 »

shoot999 wrote:Loads of stories propping up in the press about rumours in the paddock that Vettel is considering retiring at the end of the season. But the only source seems to be Saward.

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-auto ... s-Mercedes
I can see that. He definitely needs to change something to get back his mojo. He is underperforming in what is otherwise a good enough car.

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Black_Flag_11
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:Loads of stories propping up in the press about rumours in the paddock that Vettel is considering retiring at the end of the season. But the only source seems to be Saward.

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-auto ... s-Mercedes
I can see that. He definitely needs to change something to get back his mojo. He is underperforming in what is otherwise a good enough car.
I'm not convinced personally, once Ferrari is no longer an option for him sure I can see him leaving rather than drive for any other team.

But IMO until he wins with Ferrari, gets the boot from Ferrari or simply gets too old I cant see him abandoning that dream of a Ferrari WDC.

Siao7
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by Siao7 »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:Loads of stories propping up in the press about rumours in the paddock that Vettel is considering retiring at the end of the season. But the only source seems to be Saward.

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-auto ... s-Mercedes
I can see that. He definitely needs to change something to get back his mojo. He is underperforming in what is otherwise a good enough car.
I'm not convinced personally, once Ferrari is no longer an option for him sure I can see him leaving rather than drive for any other team.

But IMO until he wins with Ferrari, gets the boot from Ferrari or simply gets too old I cant see him abandoning that dream of a Ferrari WDC.
With Kimi as a team mate yes I'd agree, but with a young hungry lion next to him I think he will struggle more. I wish not, as he is still a top driver out there. He just needs some confidence and to eliminate the mistakes, as the speed is not gone

sandman1347
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by sandman1347 »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:Loads of stories propping up in the press about rumours in the paddock that Vettel is considering retiring at the end of the season. But the only source seems to be Saward.

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-auto ... s-Mercedes
I can see that. He definitely needs to change something to get back his mojo. He is underperforming in what is otherwise a good enough car.
I'm not convinced personally, once Ferrari is no longer an option for him sure I can see him leaving rather than drive for any other team.

But IMO until he wins with Ferrari, gets the boot from Ferrari or simply gets too old I cant see him abandoning that dream of a Ferrari WDC.
I too find it hard to imagine Vettel walking away. He's young yet; just 31 (will be 32 in July). He's got 5 years left easily if he wants them but I think he may be losing faith in Ferrari. They have gone backwards this year. All that said; I think he will continue as long as he has a car that is at the front and within striking distance of winning a championship. He's under contract for next season and I can't see him walking away and leaving all that money on the table either. Not at 32.

One thing is for certain though. Ferrari will likely be his last team. I can't see him going to a team that isn't a competitor and Mercedes will prioritize keeping Hamilton and, failing that, signing Verstappen. Red Bull may be an option if Max leaves but I doubt it.

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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by Zoue »

sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:Loads of stories propping up in the press about rumours in the paddock that Vettel is considering retiring at the end of the season. But the only source seems to be Saward.

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-auto ... s-Mercedes
I can see that. He definitely needs to change something to get back his mojo. He is underperforming in what is otherwise a good enough car.
I'm not convinced personally, once Ferrari is no longer an option for him sure I can see him leaving rather than drive for any other team.

But IMO until he wins with Ferrari, gets the boot from Ferrari or simply gets too old I cant see him abandoning that dream of a Ferrari WDC.
I too find it hard to imagine Vettel walking away. He's young yet; just 31 (will be 32 in July). He's got 5 years left easily if he wants them but I think he may be losing faith in Ferrari. They have gone backwards this year. All that said; I think he will continue as long as he has a car that is at the front and within striking distance of winning a championship. He's under contract for next season and I can't see him walking away and leaving all that money on the table either. Not at 32.

One thing is for certain though. Ferrari will likely be his last team. I can't see him going to a team that isn't a competitor and Mercedes will prioritize keeping Hamilton and, failing that, signing Verstappen. Red Bull may be an option if Max leaves but I doubt it.
I broadly agree but I think a move to Mercedes is a possibility. Wolff appears to have a soft spot for him so I wouldn't rule it out in the event Hamilton decides to leave.

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Black_Flag_11
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:Loads of stories propping up in the press about rumours in the paddock that Vettel is considering retiring at the end of the season. But the only source seems to be Saward.

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-auto ... s-Mercedes
I can see that. He definitely needs to change something to get back his mojo. He is underperforming in what is otherwise a good enough car.
I'm not convinced personally, once Ferrari is no longer an option for him sure I can see him leaving rather than drive for any other team.

But IMO until he wins with Ferrari, gets the boot from Ferrari or simply gets too old I cant see him abandoning that dream of a Ferrari WDC.
I too find it hard to imagine Vettel walking away. He's young yet; just 31 (will be 32 in July). He's got 5 years left easily if he wants them but I think he may be losing faith in Ferrari. They have gone backwards this year. All that said; I think he will continue as long as he has a car that is at the front and within striking distance of winning a championship. He's under contract for next season and I can't see him walking away and leaving all that money on the table either. Not at 32.

One thing is for certain though. Ferrari will likely be his last team. I can't see him going to a team that isn't a competitor and Mercedes will prioritize keeping Hamilton and, failing that, signing Verstappen. Red Bull may be an option if Max leaves but I doubt it.
I broadly agree but I think a move to Mercedes is a possibility. Wolff appears to have a soft spot for him so I wouldn't rule it out in the event Hamilton decides to leave.
Long before Vettel joined Ferrari everyone just sort of knew he would end up there one day, he obviously wanted to drove for them and there were some small signs of Ferrari being open to him.

Since joining Ferrari the closest we've had to any rumours of him leaving were to go to Mercedes, and there were some stories in the press which made it seem more plausible. After Baku 2017 Toto was far from overtly critical of Vettel in a way that would be completely reasonable in light of what just happened against one of his drivers, and later that year didnt he attend Vettel's birthday party?

Personally I'm of the opinion that Vettel will end his career at Ferrari, but I dont think it's impossible to see him at Mercedes, although I think the stars would have to align for him with Hamilton leaving. As even if both Hamilton and Vettel were happy to be in the same team (which I highly doubt) I cant see Mercedes wanting to go through another Hamilton/Rosberg situation, one which would probably be far worse than the original too.

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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by pokerman »

sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
FormulaFun wrote: When did he say this?

All I saw him say was he would have to make very aggressive overtakes and risk a crash,.which is a fact really
Well if you are prepared to risk crashing is that not the same thing?
I don't think it's the same at all. There's a big difference between being prepared to crash to get into the points, and not caring if you crash. Leclerc knew he had to be aggressive if he was going to make anything out of the race; there is simply no other way to make up that many places in Monaco.

Personally, I think his overtake on Grosjean was very good, and he was unlucky with Hulk. The only thing he really did wrong was his driving with the puncture, which was silly and irresponsible.

I will point out, however, that Hamilton did the same thing in Spa 2014 after Rosberg hit him, and he certainly wasn't inexperienced -- just angry.
Last year Verstappen started 20th and finished 9th, Leclerc was out of the race after 11 laps, I question his risk/reward mentality.
I wouldn't get too carried away. He's in a bit of a negative streak at the moment. When you look at his races:

1. Australia-Charles made a mistake early on from 5th on the grid (maybe should have been 4th but Max was able to out-qualify him *although the Red Bull did look stronger in the race*) and dropped back off of the top 4. Late in the race, things came back to him a bit as Vettel was put on a bad strategy and was nursing his tires at the end. This is where the tough stuff starts as Charles was ordered not to attack Vettel despite being the quicker man on-track at the time. He was also denied a chance to go for fastest lap at the end despite having a safe gap behind him to pit for tires without losing a position. It was the first in a series of letdowns for Charles this year and I think it's starting to affect his mindset out there.

2. Bahrain-His best weekend so far. He showed dominant pace in qualifying; besting Vettel and Hamilton to take pole on a track where Ferrari looked very strong. In the race there was another letdown. After recovering from a poor start; Charles found himself in the lead after a commanding pass on Vettel. He gapped the field and was in total control when the car suffered a failure. To have his maiden victory slip from his grasp like that must have been rough and that was two races in a row with disappointment.

3. China-Another frustrating weekend. After narrowly being out-qualified by Vettel, Charles had a good start and was running third when the team imposed orders to let Vettel through. Vettel seemed quicker but when he went through, he wasn't able to either gain on the Mercs or gap Charles. Red Bull triggered the undercut and Max jumped Charles. Then Ferrari seemed to lose track of Charles and he was left out there on much slower tires and basically just fell out of contention; finishing 5th. A big disappointment.

4. Baku-This was a bad weekend for Charles. He showed signs of serious pace in free practice but then crashed in qualifying and cost himself dearly. He clawed his way through back to 5th but that was well below his potential for the weekend so it was yet another letdown. It must be said that Charles has made his share of mistakes this year and he will need to clean that up if he wants to become a champion some day. It's easy to forget that he's very young at 21 and only in his second season; so very inexperienced as well. I don't think the hiccups should be looked at too harshly at this stage. If he was slow; that would be a different story but he's been pretty quick all year so I can handle a few errors.

5. Spain-Another frustrating race with team orders and Ferrari getting things wrong and also another bad day at the office for Charles. At this point I think his form was truly suffering and he wasn't performing as well as he did earlier in the season. Another 5th place and anther disappointing day at the office.

6. Monaco-Now we get to the most recent race. I think it's clear that Charles went into this race having faced some manner of frustration and/or disappointment in every round thus far! He was desperate to break out of that and, Monaco being his home race, what could be a better place to do it? His pace in FP3 showed serious promise and I went into qualifying expecting him to make the second row at the very least. To have such a careless error made by the team to take him out of the most important qualifying session of the year must have been devastating. What a massive disappointment that was and I think the race became a formality after that. He might have been able to crawl through to 7th or 8th had he played his cards right but I understand the frustration he must have been feeling. He has really not maximized his results in any race this season and most of the time it's through no fault of his own.
Without doubt things have gone against him, team orders, reliability, Ferrari strategy and his own mistakes, he's getting frustrated and it showed in the race.
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pokerman
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by pokerman »

shoot999 wrote:Loads of stories propping up in the press about rumours in the paddock that Vettel is considering retiring at the end of the season. But the only source seems to be Saward.

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-auto ... s-Mercedes
I hope not because I think it would be a loss to F1, of the options mentioned to replace him Bottas has to be top of that list, given how Bottas has been driving this year he may well have the option of Mercedes or Ferrari, which would he pick?
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by pokerman »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:Loads of stories propping up in the press about rumours in the paddock that Vettel is considering retiring at the end of the season. But the only source seems to be Saward.

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-auto ... s-Mercedes
I can see that. He definitely needs to change something to get back his mojo. He is underperforming in what is otherwise a good enough car.
I'm not convinced personally, once Ferrari is no longer an option for him sure I can see him leaving rather than drive for any other team.

But IMO until he wins with Ferrari, gets the boot from Ferrari or simply gets too old I cant see him abandoning that dream of a Ferrari WDC.
The last time we heard any rumours of Vettel looking to leave Ferrari was at the end of the 2016 season after Rosberg had retired, Ferrari had just had a poor season after a promising 2015 season, they'd fallen further behind Mercedes and Red Bull had caught them up, and there was rumours he had been in talks with Mercedes.

In 2017 Ferrari produced a title challenging car and the Mercedes talks were put to bed and Vettel signed a new 3 year contract with Ferrari, in 2018 Ferrari produced a car that should have won the title.

Now in 2019 again Ferrari have fallen back behind Mercedes and are hardly any better than Red Bull and again rumours emerge of Vettel wanting to leave Ferrari although this time into retirement.

Vettel wants to win with Ferrari but also Vettel just doesn't want to make up the numbers having achieved what he has already done in F1. He's put 5 years into Ferrari and he's almost back to square one plus he no longer has a compliant teammate so he's not guaranteed to solely benefit from any Ferrari resurgence.

As it stands now Vettel doesn't know when the next win is coming from let alone the next title and all along his legacy is in risk of declining more especially if he was to get beat by Leclerc, unlikely this year with the Ferrari interference but it might well happen next year.

Vettel is in F1 to win titles, with the rules not changing next year he may feel the chances of winning next year are slim, it's unlikely that Mercedes are going to fall back, his teammate is no walk in the park, plus Red Bull are sure to be stronger next year which makes Verstappen a big threat as well.

Hearing how Vettel spoke about the 2018 Ferrari not being fast enough I'm not sure just how much Vettel is up for future challenges, it sounds like perhaps he was looking for a much easier ride?
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sandman1347
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by sandman1347 »

Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:Loads of stories propping up in the press about rumours in the paddock that Vettel is considering retiring at the end of the season. But the only source seems to be Saward.

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-auto ... s-Mercedes
I can see that. He definitely needs to change something to get back his mojo. He is underperforming in what is otherwise a good enough car.
I'm not convinced personally, once Ferrari is no longer an option for him sure I can see him leaving rather than drive for any other team.

But IMO until he wins with Ferrari, gets the boot from Ferrari or simply gets too old I cant see him abandoning that dream of a Ferrari WDC.
I too find it hard to imagine Vettel walking away. He's young yet; just 31 (will be 32 in July). He's got 5 years left easily if he wants them but I think he may be losing faith in Ferrari. They have gone backwards this year. All that said; I think he will continue as long as he has a car that is at the front and within striking distance of winning a championship. He's under contract for next season and I can't see him walking away and leaving all that money on the table either. Not at 32.

One thing is for certain though. Ferrari will likely be his last team. I can't see him going to a team that isn't a competitor and Mercedes will prioritize keeping Hamilton and, failing that, signing Verstappen. Red Bull may be an option if Max leaves but I doubt it.
I broadly agree but I think a move to Mercedes is a possibility. Wolff appears to have a soft spot for him so I wouldn't rule it out in the event Hamilton decides to leave.
Vettel would really be pulling his best ever move on Hamilton if he leaves and Ferrari entices Hamilton into signing with them; thus leaving the door open at Mercedes for Vettel! Not so sure Hamilton would go for that but, if Lewis wins the titles this year and next year, that might be a possibility. Sort of a way to take on one last challenge. I'd like to see it. Might make things more interesting.

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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by pokerman »

sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:Loads of stories propping up in the press about rumours in the paddock that Vettel is considering retiring at the end of the season. But the only source seems to be Saward.

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-auto ... s-Mercedes
I can see that. He definitely needs to change something to get back his mojo. He is underperforming in what is otherwise a good enough car.
I'm not convinced personally, once Ferrari is no longer an option for him sure I can see him leaving rather than drive for any other team.

But IMO until he wins with Ferrari, gets the boot from Ferrari or simply gets too old I cant see him abandoning that dream of a Ferrari WDC.
I too find it hard to imagine Vettel walking away. He's young yet; just 31 (will be 32 in July). He's got 5 years left easily if he wants them but I think he may be losing faith in Ferrari. They have gone backwards this year. All that said; I think he will continue as long as he has a car that is at the front and within striking distance of winning a championship. He's under contract for next season and I can't see him walking away and leaving all that money on the table either. Not at 32.

One thing is for certain though. Ferrari will likely be his last team. I can't see him going to a team that isn't a competitor and Mercedes will prioritize keeping Hamilton and, failing that, signing Verstappen. Red Bull may be an option if Max leaves but I doubt it.
Rosberg walked away from a $18M contract aged just 32, not as much money as Vettel but still.....
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pokerman
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:Loads of stories propping up in the press about rumours in the paddock that Vettel is considering retiring at the end of the season. But the only source seems to be Saward.

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-auto ... s-Mercedes
I can see that. He definitely needs to change something to get back his mojo. He is underperforming in what is otherwise a good enough car.
I'm not convinced personally, once Ferrari is no longer an option for him sure I can see him leaving rather than drive for any other team.

But IMO until he wins with Ferrari, gets the boot from Ferrari or simply gets too old I cant see him abandoning that dream of a Ferrari WDC.
I too find it hard to imagine Vettel walking away. He's young yet; just 31 (will be 32 in July). He's got 5 years left easily if he wants them but I think he may be losing faith in Ferrari. They have gone backwards this year. All that said; I think he will continue as long as he has a car that is at the front and within striking distance of winning a championship. He's under contract for next season and I can't see him walking away and leaving all that money on the table either. Not at 32.

One thing is for certain though. Ferrari will likely be his last team. I can't see him going to a team that isn't a competitor and Mercedes will prioritize keeping Hamilton and, failing that, signing Verstappen. Red Bull may be an option if Max leaves but I doubt it.
I broadly agree but I think a move to Mercedes is a possibility. Wolff appears to have a soft spot for him so I wouldn't rule it out in the event Hamilton decides to leave.
Indeed but I don't see Hamilton leaving and his decision will not be made until next year anyway, the rumour being that Vettel will retire before Hamilton makes that decision.
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by pokerman »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Siao7 wrote: I can see that. He definitely needs to change something to get back his mojo. He is underperforming in what is otherwise a good enough car.
I'm not convinced personally, once Ferrari is no longer an option for him sure I can see him leaving rather than drive for any other team.

But IMO until he wins with Ferrari, gets the boot from Ferrari or simply gets too old I cant see him abandoning that dream of a Ferrari WDC.
I too find it hard to imagine Vettel walking away. He's young yet; just 31 (will be 32 in July). He's got 5 years left easily if he wants them but I think he may be losing faith in Ferrari. They have gone backwards this year. All that said; I think he will continue as long as he has a car that is at the front and within striking distance of winning a championship. He's under contract for next season and I can't see him walking away and leaving all that money on the table either. Not at 32.

One thing is for certain though. Ferrari will likely be his last team. I can't see him going to a team that isn't a competitor and Mercedes will prioritize keeping Hamilton and, failing that, signing Verstappen. Red Bull may be an option if Max leaves but I doubt it.
I broadly agree but I think a move to Mercedes is a possibility. Wolff appears to have a soft spot for him so I wouldn't rule it out in the event Hamilton decides to leave.
Long before Vettel joined Ferrari everyone just sort of knew he would end up there one day, he obviously wanted to drove for them and there were some small signs of Ferrari being open to him.

Since joining Ferrari the closest we've had to any rumours of him leaving were to go to Mercedes, and there were some stories in the press which made it seem more plausible. After Baku 2017 Toto was far from overtly critical of Vettel in a way that would be completely reasonable in light of what just happened against one of his drivers, and later that year didnt he attend Vettel's birthday party?

Personally I'm of the opinion that Vettel will end his career at Ferrari, but I dont think it's impossible to see him at Mercedes, although I think the stars would have to align for him with Hamilton leaving. As even if both Hamilton and Vettel were happy to be in the same team (which I highly doubt) I cant see Mercedes wanting to go through another Hamilton/Rosberg situation, one which would probably be far worse than the original too.
Well it was said that Vettel would only join Mercedes upon Hamilton leaving.
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by pokerman »

sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Siao7 wrote: I can see that. He definitely needs to change something to get back his mojo. He is underperforming in what is otherwise a good enough car.
I'm not convinced personally, once Ferrari is no longer an option for him sure I can see him leaving rather than drive for any other team.

But IMO until he wins with Ferrari, gets the boot from Ferrari or simply gets too old I cant see him abandoning that dream of a Ferrari WDC.
I too find it hard to imagine Vettel walking away. He's young yet; just 31 (will be 32 in July). He's got 5 years left easily if he wants them but I think he may be losing faith in Ferrari. They have gone backwards this year. All that said; I think he will continue as long as he has a car that is at the front and within striking distance of winning a championship. He's under contract for next season and I can't see him walking away and leaving all that money on the table either. Not at 32.

One thing is for certain though. Ferrari will likely be his last team. I can't see him going to a team that isn't a competitor and Mercedes will prioritize keeping Hamilton and, failing that, signing Verstappen. Red Bull may be an option if Max leaves but I doubt it.
I broadly agree but I think a move to Mercedes is a possibility. Wolff appears to have a soft spot for him so I wouldn't rule it out in the event Hamilton decides to leave.
Vettel would really be pulling his best ever move on Hamilton if he leaves and Ferrari entices Hamilton into signing with them; thus leaving the door open at Mercedes for Vettel! Not so sure Hamilton would go for that but, if Lewis wins the titles this year and next year, that might be a possibility. Sort of a way to take on one last challenge. I'd like to see it. Might make things more interesting.
What has been said though is that Vettel is looking to retire this year, not next year.
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trento
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by trento »

pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:Loads of stories propping up in the press about rumours in the paddock that Vettel is considering retiring at the end of the season. But the only source seems to be Saward.

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-auto ... s-Mercedes
I can see that. He definitely needs to change something to get back his mojo. He is underperforming in what is otherwise a good enough car.
I'm not convinced personally, once Ferrari is no longer an option for him sure I can see him leaving rather than drive for any other team.

But IMO until he wins with Ferrari, gets the boot from Ferrari or simply gets too old I cant see him abandoning that dream of a Ferrari WDC.
I too find it hard to imagine Vettel walking away. He's young yet; just 31 (will be 32 in July). He's got 5 years left easily if he wants them but I think he may be losing faith in Ferrari. They have gone backwards this year. All that said; I think he will continue as long as he has a car that is at the front and within striking distance of winning a championship. He's under contract for next season and I can't see him walking away and leaving all that money on the table either. Not at 32.

One thing is for certain though. Ferrari will likely be his last team. I can't see him going to a team that isn't a competitor and Mercedes will prioritize keeping Hamilton and, failing that, signing Verstappen. Red Bull may be an option if Max leaves but I doubt it.
Rosberg walked away from a $18M contract aged just 32, not as much money as Vettel but still.....
Not sure you're aware but Rosberg has filthy rich parents

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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by pokerman »

trento wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Siao7 wrote: I can see that. He definitely needs to change something to get back his mojo. He is underperforming in what is otherwise a good enough car.
I'm not convinced personally, once Ferrari is no longer an option for him sure I can see him leaving rather than drive for any other team.

But IMO until he wins with Ferrari, gets the boot from Ferrari or simply gets too old I cant see him abandoning that dream of a Ferrari WDC.
I too find it hard to imagine Vettel walking away. He's young yet; just 31 (will be 32 in July). He's got 5 years left easily if he wants them but I think he may be losing faith in Ferrari. They have gone backwards this year. All that said; I think he will continue as long as he has a car that is at the front and within striking distance of winning a championship. He's under contract for next season and I can't see him walking away and leaving all that money on the table either. Not at 32.

One thing is for certain though. Ferrari will likely be his last team. I can't see him going to a team that isn't a competitor and Mercedes will prioritize keeping Hamilton and, failing that, signing Verstappen. Red Bull may be an option if Max leaves but I doubt it.
Rosberg walked away from a $18M contract aged just 32, not as much money as Vettel but still.....
Not sure you're aware but Rosberg has filthy rich parents
Vettel is not filthy rich himself?
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shay550
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by shay550 »

I doubt Vettel will retire. I'm sure Kimi will be in his ear convincing him to continue.

Hamilton won't risk equalling Michael's 7 titles by jumping to Ferrari.

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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by pokerman »

shay550 wrote:I doubt Vettel will retire. I'm sure Kimi will be in his ear convincing him to continue.

Hamilton won't risk equalling Michael's 7 titles by jumping to Ferrari.
Hamilton is under contract at Mercedes, the talk was of Bottas joining Ferrari.

In respect to Vettel I hope he doesn't retire but I can understand the reasons why he might, maybe he might try for the triple crown because it's such an important thing to achieve? ;)
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trento
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by trento »

pokerman wrote:
Vettel is not filthy rich himself?
yes but earning another 20 million or so would mean more to him than Rosberg, whose family networth far exceeds that of Vettel.

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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by Exediron »

trento wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Vettel is not filthy rich himself?
yes but earning another 20 million or so would mean more to him than Rosberg, whose family networth far exceeds that of Vettel.
I'm not sure it would. Once you have enough, don't you have enough? I've never really got the vibe from Vettel that he's motivated by being super rich (beyond just being set for life, which he already very much is).
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Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc

Post by mikeyg123 »

Exediron wrote:
trento wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Vettel is not filthy rich himself?
yes but earning another 20 million or so would mean more to him than Rosberg, whose family networth far exceeds that of Vettel.
I'm not sure it would. Once you have enough, don't you have enough? I've never really got the vibe from Vettel that he's motivated by being super rich (beyond just being set for life, which he already very much is).
I think once you have $100 million another $20 million probably isn't going to make that much difference to your lifestyle. Especially as Vettel doesn't seem to be interested in the high life.

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