2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by UnlikeUday »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:Here is Vettel's error in judgement:
He was supposed to slow to 90Km/h and at one point accelerated back up to 170Km/h, it's like his mind was wandering or something, he wasn't in the game.
Watching that, I think it's difficult to come to any conclusion. When you hear the version of events, it sounds like he just didn't lift off fast enough, but the fact that he got down to nearly 100km/h and accelerated back up again (twice) before finally dropping down to below 90, just shows his head was somewhere else.
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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Mort Canard »

Seems to me that when Seb has unforeseen things happen to him, it throws him off his mental game and bad things happen during the race. I wonder if this penalty presages yet another racing misadventure for Vettel during the US Gran Prix.

No I have not correlated all of Sebastian's goofs this year and last with prior minor setbacks but it seems to me that way.

Am now waiting with great interest to see how Quali goes. I am guessing that Seb and his three grid place penalty, will end up behind Max on the grid again and as in Japan we could have a monumental coming together. Sebastian will be convinced he really needs to get by Max at the very first opportunity.
Last edited by Mort Canard on Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Mercedes-Benz »

Any reason why qualifying is so late here. FP3 time should have been qualifying start time :?
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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Clarky »

Mercedes-Benz wrote:Any reason why qualifying is so late here. FP3 time should have been qualifying start time :?
I think it is to do with the event afterwards.

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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Caserole of Nonsense »

Clarky wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:Any reason why qualifying is so late here. FP3 time should have been qualifying start time :?
I think it is to do with the event afterwards.
happened last year as well i think. wonder if any other race would be allowed this. only happened since the americans took over. it should be tough s***. make em wait like everyone else has to at other races. there'll be plenty of food to keep them busy.

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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Vettel's penalty is ridiculous IMO.

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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

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Weather forecast looks much better for today. FP3 will be quite busy.
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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:Vettel's penalty is ridiculous IMO.
In terms of the title race but both Ricciardo and Ocon have been penalised earlier in the season for doing similar, it took Vettel 23 seconds to bring his speed down to the required level of 90Km/h during which he also saw it wise to accelerate from 110Km/h up to 170Km/h.
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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Vettel's penalty is ridiculous IMO.
In terms of the title race but both Ricciardo and Ocon have been penalised earlier in the season for doing similar, it took Vettel 23 seconds to bring his speed down to the required level of 90Km/h during which he also saw it wise to accelerate from 110Km/h up to 170Km/h.
I'm not doubting he broke the rules but I assume they are there for safety. He was not in danger of endangering anyone so why the need to apply them. F1 has far too many of these arbitrary rules.

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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by sandman1347 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Vettel's penalty is ridiculous IMO.
In terms of the title race but both Ricciardo and Ocon have been penalised earlier in the season for doing similar, it took Vettel 23 seconds to bring his speed down to the required level of 90Km/h during which he also saw it wise to accelerate from 110Km/h up to 170Km/h.
I'm not doubting he broke the rules but I assume they are there for safety. He was not in danger of endangering anyone so why the need to apply them. F1 has far too many of these arbitrary rules.
I'd normally agree with this sentiment but, in this case, his violation of the rule was egregious. He actually sped up after slowing down. Honestly I can't imagine what was going through his head.

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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by j man »

mikeyg123 wrote:Vettel's penalty is ridiculous IMO.
I agree.

Yes he broke the rule. But the rule is stupid and unnecessary. If had never existed then no one would watch that on-board footage and think that Vettel had done anything even remotely dangerous.

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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Vettel's penalty is ridiculous IMO.
In terms of the title race but both Ricciardo and Ocon have been penalised earlier in the season for doing similar, it took Vettel 23 seconds to bring his speed down to the required level of 90Km/h during which he also saw it wise to accelerate from 110Km/h up to 170Km/h.
I'm not doubting he broke the rules but I assume they are there for safety. He was not in danger of endangering anyone so why the need to apply them. F1 has far too many of these arbitrary rules.
Well I found it strange what he did almost like he wasn't aware of the rule, he himself made the decision about how fast it was safe to drive under red flags in spite of it being mandated how fast you are supposed to drive.
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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Vettel's penalty is ridiculous IMO.
In terms of the title race but both Ricciardo and Ocon have been penalised earlier in the season for doing similar, it took Vettel 23 seconds to bring his speed down to the required level of 90Km/h during which he also saw it wise to accelerate from 110Km/h up to 170Km/h.
I'm not doubting he broke the rules but I assume they are there for safety. He was not in danger of endangering anyone so why the need to apply them. F1 has far too many of these arbitrary rules.
Well I found it strange what he did almost like he wasn't aware of the rule, he himself made the decision about how fast it was safe to drive under red flags in spite of it being mandated how fast you are supposed to drive.
Why does it need to be mandated? Just yet another piece of bureaucracy for drivers to full foul of. As the poster above you rightly said nobody who didn't know the rule existed would say what Vettel did was in anyway dangerous. That should be the crux of it IMO.

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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by UnlikeUday »

I wonder they penalized Vettel just to keep the flow of penalties constant now!
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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by sandman1347 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Vettel's penalty is ridiculous IMO.
In terms of the title race but both Ricciardo and Ocon have been penalised earlier in the season for doing similar, it took Vettel 23 seconds to bring his speed down to the required level of 90Km/h during which he also saw it wise to accelerate from 110Km/h up to 170Km/h.
I'm not doubting he broke the rules but I assume they are there for safety. He was not in danger of endangering anyone so why the need to apply them. F1 has far too many of these arbitrary rules.
Well I found it strange what he did almost like he wasn't aware of the rule, he himself made the decision about how fast it was safe to drive under red flags in spite of it being mandated how fast you are supposed to drive.
Why does it need to be mandated? Just yet another piece of bureaucracy for drivers to full foul of. As the poster above you rightly said nobody who didn't know the rule existed would say what Vettel did was in anyway dangerous. That should be the crux of it IMO.
Within the context of a season where two other drivers have been penalized for the infraction in the same way, the stewards had to give him this penalty. In the big picture, the rule is too rigid and perhaps there should be a warning and a penalty point for a first infraction and then a grid drop if it happens again. Really, I think it would be okay to just trust the drivers to drive safely when it's a red flag situation but the Jules incident in Japan is what led to this level or precaution.

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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Vettel's penalty is ridiculous IMO.
In terms of the title race but both Ricciardo and Ocon have been penalised earlier in the season for doing similar, it took Vettel 23 seconds to bring his speed down to the required level of 90Km/h during which he also saw it wise to accelerate from 110Km/h up to 170Km/h.
I'm not doubting he broke the rules but I assume they are there for safety. He was not in danger of endangering anyone so why the need to apply them. F1 has far too many of these arbitrary rules.
Well I found it strange what he did almost like he wasn't aware of the rule, he himself made the decision about how fast it was safe to drive under red flags in spite of it being mandated how fast you are supposed to drive.
Why does it need to be mandated? Just yet another piece of bureaucracy for drivers to full foul of. As the poster above you rightly said nobody who didn't know the rule existed would say what Vettel did was in anyway dangerous. That should be the crux of it IMO.
It needs to be mandated because this is Formula 1, not the Dominoes Saturday Tea time competition at the Bingleford retirement home.

Every session of a weekend is competitive, and unless given explicit and unambiguous instructions the teams will always look to try and gain an advantage. Now, we can question whether the red flag was necessary in this situation, but red flags are only ever put out when there is a critical incident on the track and once one is put out you can't second guess "is the red flag actually necessary"

If the teams are allowed to "use their judgement" then will push to to the limit to extract an advantage. In this specific incident, there was no advantage to be gained, however - again - you can't start putting "if this else that" flowcharts into red flag situations - they have to be binary. If it was the last practice session on a weekend where there had been limited running, and it was left up to teams to apply "their judgement" - then the teams would push beyond the limit and then argue in the stewards office they had lifted enough. It's exactly what happened during Jules Bianchi's accident. That's why the teams now have deltas.

While a practice session is less competitive than a race, they are still a limited resource for the team, and there are circumstances - such as the example I described previously - where teams would feel the need to push the limits. A mandated time delta takes they away from them.

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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Alienturnedhuman wrote: It needs to be mandated because this is Formula 1, not the Dominoes Saturday Tea time competition at the Bingleford retirement home.

Every session of a weekend is competitive, and unless given explicit and unambiguous instructions the teams will always look to try and gain an advantage. Now, we can question whether the red flag was necessary in this situation, but red flags are only ever put out when there is a critical incident on the track and once one is put out you can't second guess "is the red flag actually necessary"

If the teams are allowed to "use their judgement" then will push to to the limit to extract an advantage. In this specific incident, there was no advantage to be gained, however - again - you can't start putting "if this else that" flowcharts into red flag situations - they have to be binary. If it was the last practice session on a weekend where there had been limited running, and it was left up to teams to apply "their judgement" - then the teams would push beyond the limit and then argue in the stewards office they had lifted enough. It's exactly what happened during Jules Bianchi's accident. That's why the teams now have deltas.

While a practice session is less competitive than a race, they are still a limited resource for the team, and there are circumstances - such as the example I described previously - where teams would feel the need to push the limits. A mandated time delta takes they away from them.
What advantage can be gained by returning to the pits under a red flag a bit faster in a practice session? The only rule needed is that the driving must be safe.

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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote: It needs to be mandated because this is Formula 1, not the Dominoes Saturday Tea time competition at the Bingleford retirement home.

Every session of a weekend is competitive, and unless given explicit and unambiguous instructions the teams will always look to try and gain an advantage. Now, we can question whether the red flag was necessary in this situation, but red flags are only ever put out when there is a critical incident on the track and once one is put out you can't second guess "is the red flag actually necessary"

If the teams are allowed to "use their judgement" then will push to to the limit to extract an advantage. In this specific incident, there was no advantage to be gained, however - again - you can't start putting "if this else that" flowcharts into red flag situations - they have to be binary. If it was the last practice session on a weekend where there had been limited running, and it was left up to teams to apply "their judgement" - then the teams would push beyond the limit and then argue in the stewards office they had lifted enough. It's exactly what happened during Jules Bianchi's accident. That's why the teams now have deltas.

While a practice session is less competitive than a race, they are still a limited resource for the team, and there are circumstances - such as the example I described previously - where teams would feel the need to push the limits. A mandated time delta takes they away from them.
What advantage can be gained by returning to the pits under a red flag a bit faster in a practice session? The only rule needed is that the driving must be safe.
"Driving must be safe" is ambiguous. The driver can go around at full race speed saying those areas weren't affected so 'it was safe'. Even saying "reduced speed" isn't enough, as proven by Bianchi. While, in Vettel's specific case, there was no advantage to be gained, they can't have a hundred different red flag conditions "This is Red Flag Condition 27B, you can drive fast in sector 1, but ease off in 2, and put your hazard lights on" - a red flag is put out when there is a dangerous situation, no questions asked, no room for wiggling. There are some situations where a team would want to push the boundaries - even during a practice sessions.

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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Vettel's penalty is ridiculous IMO.
In terms of the title race but both Ricciardo and Ocon have been penalised earlier in the season for doing similar, it took Vettel 23 seconds to bring his speed down to the required level of 90Km/h during which he also saw it wise to accelerate from 110Km/h up to 170Km/h.
I'm not doubting he broke the rules but I assume they are there for safety. He was not in danger of endangering anyone so why the need to apply them. F1 has far too many of these arbitrary rules.
Well I found it strange what he did almost like he wasn't aware of the rule, he himself made the decision about how fast it was safe to drive under red flags in spite of it being mandated how fast you are supposed to drive.
Why does it need to be mandated? Just yet another piece of bureaucracy for drivers to full foul of. As the poster above you rightly said nobody who didn't know the rule existed would say what Vettel did was in anyway dangerous. That should be the crux of it IMO.
It's been decided it's not for the drivers to judge how fast you can drive under a red flag like for instance it's not for the drivers to judge how fast they can drive down the pit lane.
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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Exediron »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Vettel's penalty is ridiculous IMO.
In terms of the title race but both Ricciardo and Ocon have been penalised earlier in the season for doing similar, it took Vettel 23 seconds to bring his speed down to the required level of 90Km/h during which he also saw it wise to accelerate from 110Km/h up to 170Km/h.
I'm not doubting he broke the rules but I assume they are there for safety. He was not in danger of endangering anyone so why the need to apply them. F1 has far too many of these arbitrary rules.
Because letting safety rules slide is a really bad idea? The bottom line is that Vettel does not have absolute knowledge of what's going on all over the track, and he knew it was a red flag period. You don't go fast in a red flag period. There's no reason to go fast in a red flag period, and there's no excuse for it. He broke the rules and he got penalized. I don't see any problem, and I don't agree that it's an arbitrary rule.
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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by sandman1347 »

After FP3 I think it's possible the Ferrari upgrade package has once again changed the pecking order. I can't predict what will happen in qualifying (especially if it's dry).

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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by BMWSauber84 »

sandman1347 wrote:After FP3 I think it's possible the Ferrari upgrade package has once again changed the pecking order. I can't predict what will happen in qualifying (especially if it's dry).

Some on twitter are saying that Hamilton had to back off by half a second in the final sector of his final flying lap. If that's true and he was still only 0.073 behind then it's ominous.

Of course we'll know for sure once Q3 is done.

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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Junglist »

It's only harsh for Seb as he was/is in the title hunt... But he shouldn't be making those mistakes. Hamilton's reaction was quite telling, he looked bemused

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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Vettel's penalty is ridiculous IMO.
In terms of the title race but both Ricciardo and Ocon have been penalised earlier in the season for doing similar, it took Vettel 23 seconds to bring his speed down to the required level of 90Km/h during which he also saw it wise to accelerate from 110Km/h up to 170Km/h.
I'm not doubting he broke the rules but I assume they are there for safety. He was not in danger of endangering anyone so why the need to apply them. F1 has far too many of these arbitrary rules.
Because letting safety rules slide is a really bad idea? The bottom line is that Vettel does not have absolute knowledge of what's going on all over the track, and he knew it was a red flag period. You don't go fast in a red flag period. There's no reason to go fast in a red flag period, and there's no excuse for it. He broke the rules and he got penalized. I don't see any problem, and I don't agree that it's an arbitrary rule.
Can't quite see how Vettel could argue with the application of the rule given he sped up after seeing the lights but when you've got Horner and even Toto Wolff saying the rule is 'stupid' and needs looking at then it probably is too stringent. Was red flag driving ever an issue with the way they did it before? I don't recall any dangerous instances before they adjusted the rule.

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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by jiminwatford »

Junglist wrote:It's only harsh for Seb as he was/is in the title hunt... But he shouldn't be making those mistakes. Hamilton's reaction was quite telling, he looked bemused

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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Vettel's penalty is ridiculous IMO.
In terms of the title race but both Ricciardo and Ocon have been penalised earlier in the season for doing similar, it took Vettel 23 seconds to bring his speed down to the required level of 90Km/h during which he also saw it wise to accelerate from 110Km/h up to 170Km/h.
I'm not doubting he broke the rules but I assume they are there for safety. He was not in danger of endangering anyone so why the need to apply them. F1 has far too many of these arbitrary rules.
Because letting safety rules slide is a really bad idea? The bottom line is that Vettel does not have absolute knowledge of what's going on all over the track, and he knew it was a red flag period. You don't go fast in a red flag period. There's no reason to go fast in a red flag period, and there's no excuse for it. He broke the rules and he got penalized. I don't see any problem, and I don't agree that it's an arbitrary rule.
It's application of it in this incident is arbitrary as it exists for safety reasons but Vettel didn't endanger anyone's safety. Why not just have a rule that says you must run below racing speed and head back to the pits in a safe manor? Then if a driver does something dangerous he can be penalised but if he doesn't he's ok. The current rule is over regulation at its worse.

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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote: It's been decided it's not for the drivers to judge how fast you can drive under a red flag like for instance it's not for the drivers to judge how fast they can drive down the pit lane.
Well this is wrong IMO.

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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Exediron »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Vettel's penalty is ridiculous IMO.
In terms of the title race but both Ricciardo and Ocon have been penalised earlier in the season for doing similar, it took Vettel 23 seconds to bring his speed down to the required level of 90Km/h during which he also saw it wise to accelerate from 110Km/h up to 170Km/h.
I'm not doubting he broke the rules but I assume they are there for safety. He was not in danger of endangering anyone so why the need to apply them. F1 has far too many of these arbitrary rules.
Because letting safety rules slide is a really bad idea? The bottom line is that Vettel does not have absolute knowledge of what's going on all over the track, and he knew it was a red flag period. You don't go fast in a red flag period. There's no reason to go fast in a red flag period, and there's no excuse for it. He broke the rules and he got penalized. I don't see any problem, and I don't agree that it's an arbitrary rule.
It's application of it in this incident is arbitrary as it exists for safety reasons but Vettel didn't endanger anyone's safety. Why not just have a rule that says you must run below racing speed and head back to the pits in a safe manor? Then if a driver does something dangerous he can be penalised but if he doesn't he's ok. The current rule is over regulation at its worse.
It's not arbitrary. Arbitrary means there's arbitration involved: if it is a 100% black and white automatic penalty, there is nothing arbitrary about it. Does a driver really endanger anyone by braking a foot too late and entering the pit lane at 81 km/h instead of 80? No. But they'll get a penalty for it, because that's where the line was drawn on speeding in the pit lane. It is totally immaterial if Vettel was actively endangering anyone. There's a valid safety concern about speeding under the red flag: the FIA drew a line at a point well under where it's dangerous, and all the drivers have to abide by that. Vettel didn't. End of story.

Honestly, I'm increasingly annoyed by people claiming that completely earned penalties like this are bad for the sport. We don't get that in any other sport, so why F1? It's not like anyone made Vettel speed under red flags. It's not like he did it by just a few kph, or for just a few seconds. He blatantly ignored the rules, and he paid the price. That's the way it should be.
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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Junglist »

And if he didn't get penalised what message does it send to the drivers that did?

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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Junglist »

jiminwatford wrote:
Junglist wrote:It's only harsh for Seb as he was/is in the title hunt... But he shouldn't be making those mistakes. Hamilton's reaction was quite telling, he looked bemused

https://streamable.com/z8fi9
He looked knackered!
Ha, on second viewing he does look tired.

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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by JN23 »

sandman1347 wrote:After FP3 I think it's possible the Ferrari upgrade package has once again changed the pecking order. I can't predict what will happen in qualifying (especially if it's dry).
They ran the old floor in FP3 apparently.

https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/105 ... 75393?s=19

https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/105 ... 37728?s=19

mikeyg123
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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Exediron wrote: It's not arbitrary. Arbitrary means there's arbitration involved: if it is a 100% black and white automatic penalty, there is nothing arbitrary about it. Does a driver really endanger anyone by braking a foot too late and entering the pit lane at 81 km/h instead of 80? No. But they'll get a penalty for it, because that's where the line was drawn on speeding in the pit lane. It is totally immaterial if Vettel was actively endangering anyone. There's a valid safety concern about speeding under the red flag: the FIA drew a line at a point well under where it's dangerous, and all the drivers have to abide by that. Vettel didn't. End of story.

Honestly, I'm increasingly annoyed by people claiming that completely earned penalties like this are bad for the sport. We don't get that in any other sport, so why F1? It's not like anyone made Vettel speed under red flags. It's not like he did it by just a few kph, or for just a few seconds. He blatantly ignored the rules, and he paid the price. That's the way it should be.
Ok Arbitrary was the wrong word to use. No other sport has so many ways in which participants can earn penalties for things that gain them no advantage and don't negatively effect someone else. Especially penalties that effect the actual sport. It would be like giving a football team a starting score of -1 if they handed in their team sheet 30 seconds late.

Obviously you have to stick to the rules but rules for rules sake is unhelpful. Whatever you say it does damage the show and therefore the sport. Other sport bend over backwards to avoid that happening.

sandman1347
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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by sandman1347 »

Junglist wrote:It's only harsh for Seb as he was/is in the title hunt... But he shouldn't be making those mistakes. Hamilton's reaction was quite telling, he looked bemused

https://streamable.com/z8fi9
Pretty much the response of most fans too. It's really getting hard to believe now.

BMWSauber84
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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by BMWSauber84 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote: It's not arbitrary. Arbitrary means there's arbitration involved: if it is a 100% black and white automatic penalty, there is nothing arbitrary about it. Does a driver really endanger anyone by braking a foot too late and entering the pit lane at 81 km/h instead of 80? No. But they'll get a penalty for it, because that's where the line was drawn on speeding in the pit lane. It is totally immaterial if Vettel was actively endangering anyone. There's a valid safety concern about speeding under the red flag: the FIA drew a line at a point well under where it's dangerous, and all the drivers have to abide by that. Vettel didn't. End of story.

Honestly, I'm increasingly annoyed by people claiming that completely earned penalties like this are bad for the sport. We don't get that in any other sport, so why F1? It's not like anyone made Vettel speed under red flags. It's not like he did it by just a few kph, or for just a few seconds. He blatantly ignored the rules, and he paid the price. That's the way it should be.
Ok Arbitrary was the wrong word to use. No other sport has so many ways in which participants can earn penalties for things that gain them no advantage and don't negatively effect someone else. Especially penalties that effect the actual sport. It would be like giving a football team a starting score of -1 if they handed in their team sheet 30 seconds late.

Obviously you have to stick to the rules but rules for rules sake is unhelpful. Whatever you say it does damage the show and therefore the sport. Other sport bend over backwards to avoid that happening.
It's ultimately a safety measure and the line has to be drawn somewhere. We have all complained about the grey areas and inconsistencies in some of these areas, but on this one the law appears to be effectively and consistently applied.

Yes you could argue that common sense could be applied, but the sport is ultimately safer with this rule in.

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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote: It's not arbitrary. Arbitrary means there's arbitration involved: if it is a 100% black and white automatic penalty, there is nothing arbitrary about it. Does a driver really endanger anyone by braking a foot too late and entering the pit lane at 81 km/h instead of 80? No. But they'll get a penalty for it, because that's where the line was drawn on speeding in the pit lane. It is totally immaterial if Vettel was actively endangering anyone. There's a valid safety concern about speeding under the red flag: the FIA drew a line at a point well under where it's dangerous, and all the drivers have to abide by that. Vettel didn't. End of story.

Honestly, I'm increasingly annoyed by people claiming that completely earned penalties like this are bad for the sport. We don't get that in any other sport, so why F1? It's not like anyone made Vettel speed under red flags. It's not like he did it by just a few kph, or for just a few seconds. He blatantly ignored the rules, and he paid the price. That's the way it should be.
Ok Arbitrary was the wrong word to use. No other sport has so many ways in which participants can earn penalties for things that gain them no advantage and don't negatively effect someone else. Especially penalties that effect the actual sport. It would be like giving a football team a starting score of -1 if they handed in their team sheet 30 seconds late.

Obviously you have to stick to the rules but rules for rules sake is unhelpful. Whatever you say it does damage the show and therefore the sport. Other sport bend over backwards to avoid that happening.
Without even engaging the totally ridiculous comparison of handing in a team sheet late versus the safety procedures on an active race track, let's just turn this around. How was Sebastian Vettel disadvantaged by having to keep to the speed limit? He'd already slowed most of the way there - twice - before inexplicably speeding up again. All he had to do was stick to the speed limit, something the drivers have to do when driving through the pit lane or meet VSC split deltas, so is something they are already used to doing.

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Exediron
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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by Exediron »

mikeyg123 wrote:Obviously you have to stick to the rules but rules for rules sake is unhelpful. Whatever you say it does damage the show and therefore the sport. Other sport bend over backwards to avoid that happening.
I don't watch football, but in hockey a puck can bounce off a player's stick in a bad way and go into the audience and it's called Delay of Game. They get a penalty for it, and the other team gets a 2 minute advantage. It can happen completely by accident, and it can change the game. Nobody complains about it because they accept that the team broke the rules.

I honestly don't see why anyone thinks what Vettel did shouldn't get a penalty, but I guess you do and I can't question that - only disagree with it.
PICK 10 COMPETITION (6 wins, 18 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
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sandman1347
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Re: 2018 U.S. Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

Post by sandman1347 »

JN23 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:After FP3 I think it's possible the Ferrari upgrade package has once again changed the pecking order. I can't predict what will happen in qualifying (especially if it's dry).
They ran the old floor in FP3 apparently.

https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/105 ... 75393?s=19

https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/105 ... 37728?s=19
Interesting. Might be that Lewis never really put in a hot one.

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