planetf1.com

Johnson wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Johnson wrote:One thing people forget about Schumacher is that he made generally one big unforced error per season (outside of the years he was cruising to the title) even when he was quite experienced.

1994. Hit the wall and DNF'd his car before he took Hill out
1995. San Marino, spun out.
1996. Monaco into the wall
1997. He had 3 race ending collisions
1998. Lost his wing twice at Monaco. Rear ended DC at Spa (arguably not his fault)
1999. Went into the wall of champions
2000. No individual error but went out at turn 1 twice in collisions.
2001.
2002.
2003. Spun out of Brazil. Lost his wing at Malaysia and Japan.
2004. Monaco tunnel incident. Spun out in China/Monza.
2005. Collided/Spun to 4 DNFs
2006. Spun out in Australia. Lost his wing in Hungary

2010-2012 isn't the same Schumacher so no need to bring that in.

What kind of argument is this? Which driver doesn't spin or lose the car? Senna did, Fangio did, Clark did and paid with his life. They ALL make mistakes.

Also, you should have left out a few of them. The DC incident was DC's fault. In 2000 you mention yourself that there was no individual error, so why include that?

Finally, shouldn't you do the same list for Lewis if you wanted to compare them?

Hamilton 2018? That was the point, hard to beat somebody who makes no errors. Alonso made no errros in 2006 too.

2000, I couldn’t remember if Schumacher was at fault for either of the two turn 1 crashes to DNF. What I meant was, no individual unforced error (I.e. on his own on track, like the majority of them).

It could be in part down to track design, but the last time Hamilton retired with an individual error was China 2007?

Blake wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Blake wrote:Simple answer:
Schumi before 1st retirement was better than Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso and any other current driver. In my opinion.

He wasn't better than Alonso in 2006.

Like Lewis wasn't better than Rosberg in 2016?

kleefton wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:Questions like this are always difficult because it basically boils down to whether you feel that driver X would have made the same mistakes that Vettel has. Take Germany, for example. Most pundits and drivers say that Vettel made a very small error but unfortunately the location and conditions gave it big consequences. The odds of another driver making the same mistake are small, but there again the odds of Vettel making the same mistake were he to do it all again are equally small. And if we look at yesterday then I'm pretty confident that Schumacher wouldn't have been averse to trying to muscle past Verstappen in the same way that Vettel did. He wasn't exactly known for being timid.

People remember the bad but before the summer many were saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton and were praising him for his performances this year. Since then his season has gone from bad to worse but before then he was fairly universally praised.

So would Schumacher have enjoyed the same bad run as Vettel since the summer break? Well, ultimately I think peak Schumacher was better than either Vettel or Hamilton. I think Hamilton may have found it harder to pass him in Russia, for example, so that race may have had a different outcome And I think Schumacher had the talent to pull rabbits out of hats so yes I think he'd be doing better now in either the Ferrari or the Mercedes than both of the incumbents. I don't think he'd have had some of Hamilton's lackluster qualifying or races in the beginning of the season, for example, and I think he'd have had a better qualifying record vs Kimi (or Bottas, for that matter). I think he'd have won the title whichever car he was in.

Who was saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton before the summer break?

The narrative would be more like Vettel had the better car up until the summer break and would have been leading the WDC if not for his own mistakes, the lock up in Baku, hitting Bottas' car in France, crashing from the lead in Germany and the poor wet qualifying in Hungary.

Maybe for the first 1/4 of the season, Vettel did seem to be driving better than Hamilton, but Lewis's performances after that changed that narrative by the summer break.

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:Questions like this are always difficult because it basically boils down to whether you feel that driver X would have made the same mistakes that Vettel has. Take Germany, for example. Most pundits and drivers say that Vettel made a very small error but unfortunately the location and conditions gave it big consequences. The odds of another driver making the same mistake are small, but there again the odds of Vettel making the same mistake were he to do it all again are equally small. And if we look at yesterday then I'm pretty confident that Schumacher wouldn't have been averse to trying to muscle past Verstappen in the same way that Vettel did. He wasn't exactly known for being timid.

People remember the bad but before the summer many were saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton and were praising him for his performances this year. Since then his season has gone from bad to worse but before then he was fairly universally praised.

So would Schumacher have enjoyed the same bad run as Vettel since the summer break? Well, ultimately I think peak Schumacher was better than either Vettel or Hamilton. I think Hamilton may have found it harder to pass him in Russia, for example, so that race may have had a different outcome And I think Schumacher had the talent to pull rabbits out of hats so yes I think he'd be doing better now in either the Ferrari or the Mercedes than both of the incumbents. I don't think he'd have had some of Hamilton's lackluster qualifying or races in the beginning of the season, for example, and I think he'd have had a better qualifying record vs Kimi (or Bottas, for that matter). I think he'd have won the title whichever car he was in.

Who was saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton before the summer break?

The narrative would be more like Vettel had the better car up until the summer break and would have been leading the WDC if not for his own mistakes, the lock up in Baku, hitting Bottas' car in France, crashing from the lead in Germany and the poor wet qualifying in Hungary.

I think a lot of people considered Vettel to have had the better half until Germany at least. A number of people thought Hamilton was a bit subdued at the beginning of the season, to be fair.

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:Questions like this are always difficult because it basically boils down to whether you feel that driver X would have made the same mistakes that Vettel has. Take Germany, for example. Most pundits and drivers say that Vettel made a very small error but unfortunately the location and conditions gave it big consequences. The odds of another driver making the same mistake are small, but there again the odds of Vettel making the same mistake were he to do it all again are equally small. And if we look at yesterday then I'm pretty confident that Schumacher wouldn't have been averse to trying to muscle past Verstappen in the same way that Vettel did. He wasn't exactly known for being timid.

People remember the bad but before the summer many were saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton and were praising him for his performances this year. Since then his season has gone from bad to worse but before then he was fairly universally praised.

So would Schumacher have enjoyed the same bad run as Vettel since the summer break? Well, ultimately I think peak Schumacher was better than either Vettel or Hamilton. I think Hamilton may have found it harder to pass him in Russia, for example, so that race may have had a different outcome And I think Schumacher had the talent to pull rabbits out of hats so yes I think he'd be doing better now in either the Ferrari or the Mercedes than both of the incumbents. I don't think he'd have had some of Hamilton's lackluster qualifying or races in the beginning of the season, for example, and I think he'd have had a better qualifying record vs Kimi (or Bottas, for that matter). I think he'd have won the title whichever car he was in.

Who was saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton before the summer break?

The narrative would be more like Vettel had the better car up until the summer break and would have been leading the WDC if not for his own mistakes, the lock up in Baku, hitting Bottas' car in France, crashing from the lead in Germany and the poor wet qualifying in Hungary.

I think a lot of people considered Vettel to have had the better half until Germany at least. A number of people thought Hamilton was a bit subdued at the beginning of the season, to be fair.

I wouldn't disagree that he made a slow start but it's easy to forget the lost win to the VSC in the first race and then the gearbox penalty the very next race, he convincingly won on merit in Spain which on merit would have been 2 wins in the first 5 races, such high standards are needed to be met it seems?

You've trimmed this back to before Germany now whereas before you said before the summer break so you've kind of moved the goalpost to question my own post, nevertheless as an overview before Germany Vettel was clearly looking the better bet but that was also related to the Ferrari looking to be the better car, before Germany AMUS had it 6-4 to Ferrari.

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... efore_the/

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:Questions like this are always difficult because it basically boils down to whether you feel that driver X would have made the same mistakes that Vettel has. Take Germany, for example. Most pundits and drivers say that Vettel made a very small error but unfortunately the location and conditions gave it big consequences. The odds of another driver making the same mistake are small, but there again the odds of Vettel making the same mistake were he to do it all again are equally small. And if we look at yesterday then I'm pretty confident that Schumacher wouldn't have been averse to trying to muscle past Verstappen in the same way that Vettel did. He wasn't exactly known for being timid.

People remember the bad but before the summer many were saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton and were praising him for his performances this year. Since then his season has gone from bad to worse but before then he was fairly universally praised.

So would Schumacher have enjoyed the same bad run as Vettel since the summer break? Well, ultimately I think peak Schumacher was better than either Vettel or Hamilton. I think Hamilton may have found it harder to pass him in Russia, for example, so that race may have had a different outcome And I think Schumacher had the talent to pull rabbits out of hats so yes I think he'd be doing better now in either the Ferrari or the Mercedes than both of the incumbents. I don't think he'd have had some of Hamilton's lackluster qualifying or races in the beginning of the season, for example, and I think he'd have had a better qualifying record vs Kimi (or Bottas, for that matter). I think he'd have won the title whichever car he was in.

Who was saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton before the summer break?

The narrative would be more like Vettel had the better car up until the summer break and would have been leading the WDC if not for his own mistakes, the lock up in Baku, hitting Bottas' car in France, crashing from the lead in Germany and the poor wet qualifying in Hungary.

I think a lot of people considered Vettel to have had the better half until Germany at least. A number of people thought Hamilton was a bit subdued at the beginning of the season, to be fair.

I wouldn't disagree that he made a slow start but it's easy to forget the lost win to the VSC in the first race and then the gearbox penalty the very next race, he convincingly won on merit in Spain which on merit would have been 2 wins in the first 5 races, such high standards are needed to be met it seems?

You've trimmed this back to before Germany now whereas before you said before the summer break so you've kind of moved the goalpost to question my own post, nevertheless as an overview before Germany Vettel was clearly looking the better bet but that was also related to the Ferrari looking to be the better car, before Germany AMUS had it 6-4 to Ferrari.

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... efore_the/

Well I think my actual words were before the summer - you added the word "break" but I'd consider Germany to have taken place in the summer. I'm not trimming anything back or moving any goalposts and I think you're confusing yourself by adding in parameters of your own making. As to high standards - wouldn't you say that's a given when discussing who has been the best driver? BTW, saying he had a slow start isn't the same as saying he was terrible but you can't deny he wasn't reaching the same high standards either in qualifying or the races that he is now?

So from the rest of your post and with that misunderstanding out of the way I don't think we're disagreeing all that much there actually

People remember the bad but before the summer many were saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton and were praising him for his performances this year. Since then his season has gone from bad to worse but before then he was fairly universally praised.

So would Schumacher have enjoyed the same bad run as Vettel since the summer break?

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:Who was saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton before the summer break?

The narrative would be more like Vettel had the better car up until the summer break and would have been leading the WDC if not for his own mistakes, the lock up in Baku, hitting Bottas' car in France, crashing from the lead in Germany and the poor wet qualifying in Hungary.

I think a lot of people considered Vettel to have had the better half until Germany at least. A number of people thought Hamilton was a bit subdued at the beginning of the season, to be fair.

I wouldn't disagree that he made a slow start but it's easy to forget the lost win to the VSC in the first race and then the gearbox penalty the very next race, he convincingly won on merit in Spain which on merit would have been 2 wins in the first 5 races, such high standards are needed to be met it seems?

You've trimmed this back to before Germany now whereas before you said before the summer break so you've kind of moved the goalpost to question my own post, nevertheless as an overview before Germany Vettel was clearly looking the better bet but that was also related to the Ferrari looking to be the better car, before Germany AMUS had it 6-4 to Ferrari.

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... efore_the/

Well I think my actual words were before the summer - you added the word "break" but I'd consider Germany to have taken place in the summer. I'm not trimming anything back or moving any goalposts and I think you're confusing yourself by adding in parameters of your own making. As to high standards - wouldn't you say that's a given when discussing who has been the best driver? BTW, saying he had a slow start isn't the same as saying he was terrible but you can't deny he wasn't reaching the same high standards either in qualifying or the races that he is now?

So from the rest of your post and with that misunderstanding out of the way I don't think we're disagreeing all that much there actually

No you actually mentioned the summer break.

People remember the bad but before the summer many were saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton and were praising him for his performances this year. Since then his season has gone from bad to worse but before then he was fairly universally praised.

So would Schumacher have enjoyed the same bad run as Vettel since the summer break?

This is clearly your context which included several errors from Vettel.

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote: I think a lot of people considered Vettel to have had the better half until Germany at least. A number of people thought Hamilton was a bit subdued at the beginning of the season, to be fair.

I wouldn't disagree that he made a slow start but it's easy to forget the lost win to the VSC in the first race and then the gearbox penalty the very next race, he convincingly won on merit in Spain which on merit would have been 2 wins in the first 5 races, such high standards are needed to be met it seems?

You've trimmed this back to before Germany now whereas before you said before the summer break so you've kind of moved the goalpost to question my own post, nevertheless as an overview before Germany Vettel was clearly looking the better bet but that was also related to the Ferrari looking to be the better car, before Germany AMUS had it 6-4 to Ferrari.

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... efore_the/

Well I think my actual words were before the summer - you added the word "break" but I'd consider Germany to have taken place in the summer. I'm not trimming anything back or moving any goalposts and I think you're confusing yourself by adding in parameters of your own making. As to high standards - wouldn't you say that's a given when discussing who has been the best driver? BTW, saying he had a slow start isn't the same as saying he was terrible but you can't deny he wasn't reaching the same high standards either in qualifying or the races that he is now?

So from the rest of your post and with that misunderstanding out of the way I don't think we're disagreeing all that much there actually

No you actually mentioned the summer break.

People remember the bad but before the summer many were saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton and were praising him for his performances this year. Since then his season has gone from bad to worse but before then he was fairly universally praised.

So would Schumacher have enjoyed the same bad run as Vettel since the summer break?

This is clearly your context which included several errors from Vettel.

There are two separate things here. One is me saying that before the summer Vettel was being talked about as having the better season.

The other is saying that after the summer break he had a bad run. Sorry if the wording is confusing but they are separate.

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote: Well I think my actual words were before the summer - you added the word "break" but I'd consider Germany to have taken place in the summer. I'm not trimming anything back or moving any goalposts and I think you're confusing yourself by adding in parameters of your own making. As to high standards - wouldn't you say that's a given when discussing who has been the best driver? BTW, saying he had a slow start isn't the same as saying he was terrible but you can't deny he wasn't reaching the same high standards either in qualifying or the races that he is now?

So from the rest of your post and with that misunderstanding out of the way I don't think we're disagreeing all that much there actually

No you actually mentioned the summer break.

People remember the bad but before the summer many were saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton and were praising him for his performances this year. Since then his season has gone from bad to worse but before then he was fairly universally praised.

So would Schumacher have enjoyed the same bad run as Vettel since the summer break?

This is clearly your context which included several errors from Vettel.

There are two separate things here. One is me saying that before the summer Vettel was being talked about as having the better season.

The other is saying that after the summer break he had a bad run. Sorry if the wording is confusing but they are separate.

The bad run started before the summer break, the crash from the lead in Germany was before the summer break, it's clear you were defining that Vettel had been the better driver up to the summer break.

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:Well I think my actual words were before the summer - you added the word "break" but I'd consider Germany to have taken place in the summer. I'm not trimming anything back or moving any goalposts and I think you're confusing yourself by adding in parameters of your own making. As to high standards - wouldn't you say that's a given when discussing who has been the best driver? BTW, saying he had a slow start isn't the same as saying he was terrible but you can't deny he wasn't reaching the same high standards either in qualifying or the races that he is now?

So from the rest of your post and with that misunderstanding out of the way I don't think we're disagreeing all that much there actually

No you actually mentioned the summer break.

People remember the bad but before the summer many were saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton and were praising him for his performances this year. Since then his season has gone from bad to worse but before then he was fairly universally praised.

So would Schumacher have enjoyed the same bad run as Vettel since the summer break?

This is clearly your context which included several errors from Vettel.

There are two separate things here. One is me saying that before the summer Vettel was being talked about as having the better season.

The other is saying that after the summer break he had a bad run. Sorry if the wording is confusing but they are separate.

The bad run started before the summer break, the crash from the lead in Germany was before the summer break, it's clear you were defining that Vettel had been the better driver up to the summer break.

sandman1347 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote: Well I think my actual words were before the summer - you added the word "break" but I'd consider Germany to have taken place in the summer. I'm not trimming anything back or moving any goalposts and I think you're confusing yourself by adding in parameters of your own making. As to high standards - wouldn't you say that's a given when discussing who has been the best driver? BTW, saying he had a slow start isn't the same as saying he was terrible but you can't deny he wasn't reaching the same high standards either in qualifying or the races that he is now?

So from the rest of your post and with that misunderstanding out of the way I don't think we're disagreeing all that much there actually

No you actually mentioned the summer break.

People remember the bad but before the summer many were saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton and were praising him for his performances this year. Since then his season has gone from bad to worse but before then he was fairly universally praised.

So would Schumacher have enjoyed the same bad run as Vettel since the summer break?

This is clearly your context which included several errors from Vettel.

There are two separate things here. One is me saying that before the summer Vettel was being talked about as having the better season.

The other is saying that after the summer break he had a bad run. Sorry if the wording is confusing but they are separate.

The bad run started before the summer break, the crash from the lead in Germany was before the summer break, it's clear you were defining that Vettel had been the better driver up to the summer break.

Yeah I'm lost with Zoue's whole narrative here. After Vettel's mistakes in Baku, France and Germany I can't recall anyone talking about him as the best performer of the first half.

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:Well I think my actual words were before the summer - you added the word "break" but I'd consider Germany to have taken place in the summer. I'm not trimming anything back or moving any goalposts and I think you're confusing yourself by adding in parameters of your own making. As to high standards - wouldn't you say that's a given when discussing who has been the best driver? BTW, saying he had a slow start isn't the same as saying he was terrible but you can't deny he wasn't reaching the same high standards either in qualifying or the races that he is now?

So from the rest of your post and with that misunderstanding out of the way I don't think we're disagreeing all that much there actually

No you actually mentioned the summer break.

People remember the bad but before the summer many were saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton and were praising him for his performances this year. Since then his season has gone from bad to worse but before then he was fairly universally praised.

So would Schumacher have enjoyed the same bad run as Vettel since the summer break?

This is clearly your context which included several errors from Vettel.

There are two separate things here. One is me saying that before the summer Vettel was being talked about as having the better season.

The other is saying that after the summer break he had a bad run. Sorry if the wording is confusing but they are separate.

The bad run started before the summer break, the crash from the lead in Germany was before the summer break, it's clear you were defining that Vettel had been the better driver up to the summer break.

I'm not defining it as up to the summer break and I'm telling you categorically that I'm not defining it. It's clear that he came in for a lot of flack after Germany.

I think I know what I'm defining better than you do and it's unclear to me why you would try to make such an issue of it when I've taken pains to explain it. Good grief

So would Schumacher have enjoyed the same bad run as Vettel since the summer break?

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote: There are two separate things here. One is me saying that before the summer Vettel was being talked about as having the better season.

The other is saying that after the summer break he had a bad run. Sorry if the wording is confusing but they are separate.

The bad run started before the summer break, the crash from the lead in Germany was before the summer break, it's clear you were defining that Vettel had been the better driver up to the summer break.

I'm not defining it as up to the summer break and I'm telling you categorically that I'm not defining it. It's clear that he came in for a lot of flack after Germany.

I think I know what I'm defining better than you do and it's unclear to me why you would try to make such an issue of it when I've taken pains to explain it. Good grief

This is what you posted

So would Schumacher have enjoyed the same bad run as Vettel since the summer break?

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote: There are two separate things here. One is me saying that before the summer Vettel was being talked about as having the better season.

The other is saying that after the summer break he had a bad run. Sorry if the wording is confusing but they are separate.

The bad run started before the summer break, the crash from the lead in Germany was before the summer break, it's clear you were defining that Vettel had been the better driver up to the summer break.

I'm not defining it as up to the summer break and I'm telling you categorically that I'm not defining it. It's clear that he came in for a lot of flack after Germany.

I think I know what I'm defining better than you do and it's unclear to me why you would try to make such an issue of it when I've taken pains to explain it. Good grief

This is what you posted

So would Schumacher have enjoyed the same bad run as Vettel since the summer break?

pokerman wrote:

Invade wrote:I just think there's easily enough variables in F1 that not only could Schumacher have won or lost, but so could have a number of other drivers including Vettel. Which year of form do you take for the driver? When and where will the luck strike and who will it favour?

This is a one of Hamilton's best years vs an iffy Vettel year. And what do you suppose would happen if Hamilton had an iffy year and Vettel put in one of his best years?

If you put Schumacher in the Ferrari or the Mercedes and assume he's in good form, then up to this point in the season against another great driver in one of their great years, he could indeed be ahead or behind. As stated earlier, I'd hardly feel confident in putting 1998 Schumacher up against Hamilton/Merc right now.

But it's just fanciful bar talk, isn't it. Schumacher might be far less effective these days and Hamilton in Schumi's days for much the same reason. One loves to test and the other is averse to it.

Is it an iffy Vettel year or is it his level given that you could call 2016-18 has all being iffy years?

Invade wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Invade wrote:I just think there's easily enough variables in F1 that not only could Schumacher have won or lost, but so could have a number of other drivers including Vettel. Which year of form do you take for the driver? When and where will the luck strike and who will it favour?

This is a one of Hamilton's best years vs an iffy Vettel year. And what do you suppose would happen if Hamilton had an iffy year and Vettel put in one of his best years?

If you put Schumacher in the Ferrari or the Mercedes and assume he's in good form, then up to this point in the season against another great driver in one of their great years, he could indeed be ahead or behind. As stated earlier, I'd hardly feel confident in putting 1998 Schumacher up against Hamilton/Merc right now.

But it's just fanciful bar talk, isn't it. Schumacher might be far less effective these days and Hamilton in Schumi's days for much the same reason. One loves to test and the other is averse to it.

Is it an iffy Vettel year or is it his level given that you could call 2016-18 has all being iffy years?

Well I don't think Vettel did much wrong in 2017 and there wasn't much between him and Hamilton in that season.
.

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:

Invade wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Invade wrote:I just think there's easily enough variables in F1 that not only could Schumacher have won or lost, but so could have a number of other drivers including Vettel. Which year of form do you take for the driver? When and where will the luck strike and who will it favour?

This is a one of Hamilton's best years vs an iffy Vettel year. And what do you suppose would happen if Hamilton had an iffy year and Vettel put in one of his best years?

If you put Schumacher in the Ferrari or the Mercedes and assume he's in good form, then up to this point in the season against another great driver in one of their great years, he could indeed be ahead or behind. As stated earlier, I'd hardly feel confident in putting 1998 Schumacher up against Hamilton/Merc right now.

But it's just fanciful bar talk, isn't it. Schumacher might be far less effective these days and Hamilton in Schumi's days for much the same reason. One loves to test and the other is averse to it.

Is it an iffy Vettel year or is it his level given that you could call 2016-18 has all being iffy years?

Well I don't think Vettel did much wrong in 2017 and there wasn't much between him and Hamilton in that season.
.

Baku? Singapore? Mexico?

Well, not as much as in 2018, that much is true.

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:

Invade wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Invade wrote:I just think there's easily enough variables in F1 that not only could Schumacher have won or lost, but so could have a number of other drivers including Vettel. Which year of form do you take for the driver? When and where will the luck strike and who will it favour?

This is a one of Hamilton's best years vs an iffy Vettel year. And what do you suppose would happen if Hamilton had an iffy year and Vettel put in one of his best years?

If you put Schumacher in the Ferrari or the Mercedes and assume he's in good form, then up to this point in the season against another great driver in one of their great years, he could indeed be ahead or behind. As stated earlier, I'd hardly feel confident in putting 1998 Schumacher up against Hamilton/Merc right now.

But it's just fanciful bar talk, isn't it. Schumacher might be far less effective these days and Hamilton in Schumi's days for much the same reason. One loves to test and the other is averse to it.

Is it an iffy Vettel year or is it his level given that you could call 2016-18 has all being iffy years?

Well I don't think Vettel did much wrong in 2017 and there wasn't much between him and Hamilton in that season.
.

Baku? Singapore? Mexico?

Well, not as much as in 2018, that much is true.

aice wrote:

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:

Invade wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Invade wrote:I just think there's easily enough variables in F1 that not only could Schumacher have won or lost, but so could have a number of other drivers including Vettel. Which year of form do you take for the driver? When and where will the luck strike and who will it favour?

This is a one of Hamilton's best years vs an iffy Vettel year. And what do you suppose would happen if Hamilton had an iffy year and Vettel put in one of his best years?

If you put Schumacher in the Ferrari or the Mercedes and assume he's in good form, then up to this point in the season against another great driver in one of their great years, he could indeed be ahead or behind. As stated earlier, I'd hardly feel confident in putting 1998 Schumacher up against Hamilton/Merc right now.

But it's just fanciful bar talk, isn't it. Schumacher might be far less effective these days and Hamilton in Schumi's days for much the same reason. One loves to test and the other is averse to it.

Is it an iffy Vettel year or is it his level given that you could call 2016-18 has all being iffy years?

Well I don't think Vettel did much wrong in 2017 and there wasn't much between him and Hamilton in that season.
.

Baku? Singapore? Mexico?

Well, not as much as in 2018, that much is true.

Post-race Malaysia?

Mr.Wojo wrote:Since we all like to play the what if game; in your opinion do you think that Michael Schumacher at 31 years of age would have won while driving this years Ferrari?

sandman1347 wrote:It's amazing how fuzz people's memories can be. Hamilton CLEARLY out-performed Vettel last season. This year has been even more clear but to say Vettel matched Hamilton's performance last season is inaccurate.

AnRs wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:It's amazing how fuzz people's memories can be. Hamilton CLEARLY out-performed Vettel last season. This year has been even more clear but to say Vettel matched Hamilton's performance last season is inaccurate.

And still "people" voted Vettel as the most "driver off the day" in 2017, so perhaps he didn't do so bad https://www.formula1.com/en/results/awa ... -2017.html

AnRs wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:It's amazing how fuzz people's memories can be. Hamilton CLEARLY out-performed Vettel last season. This year has been even more clear but to say Vettel matched Hamilton's performance last season is inaccurate.

And still "people" voted Vettel as the most "driver off the day" in 2017, so perhaps he didn't do so bad https://www.formula1.com/en/results/awa ... -2017.html

Ocon wrote:

AnRs wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:It's amazing how fuzz people's memories can be. Hamilton CLEARLY out-performed Vettel last season. This year has been even more clear but to say Vettel matched Hamilton's performance last season is inaccurate.

And still "people" voted Vettel as the most "driver off the day" in 2017, so perhaps he didn't do so bad https://www.formula1.com/en/results/awa ... -2017.html

Yeah, you can count on fans votes to be the most objective.

Siao7 wrote:

AnRs wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:It's amazing how fuzz people's memories can be. Hamilton CLEARLY out-performed Vettel last season. This year has been even more clear but to say Vettel matched Hamilton's performance last season is inaccurate.

And still "people" voted Vettel as the most "driver off the day" in 2017, so perhaps he didn't do so bad https://www.formula1.com/en/results/awa ... -2017.html

Driver of the day voting sometimes doesn't say the whole story. If Hamilton wins from pol but Vettel has to slice through the crowd to get to the podium, guess who will get the DOTD vote. It is a bit unfair to the leading driver, as they can't do any "heroics" on track really.

Siao7 wrote:

AnRs wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:It's amazing how fuzz people's memories can be. Hamilton CLEARLY out-performed Vettel last season. This year has been even more clear but to say Vettel matched Hamilton's performance last season is inaccurate.

And still "people" voted Vettel as the most "driver off the day" in 2017, so perhaps he didn't do so bad https://www.formula1.com/en/results/awa ... -2017.html

Driver of the day voting sometimes doesn't say the whole story. If Hamilton wins from pol but Vettel has to slice through the crowd to get to the podium, guess who will get the DOTD vote. It is a bit unfair to the leading driver, as they can't do any "heroics" on track really.

pokerman wrote:

Ocon wrote:

AnRs wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:It's amazing how fuzz people's memories can be. Hamilton CLEARLY out-performed Vettel last season. This year has been even more clear but to say Vettel matched Hamilton's performance last season is inaccurate.

And still "people" voted Vettel as the most "driver off the day" in 2017, so perhaps he didn't do so bad https://www.formula1.com/en/results/awa ... -2017.html

Yeah, you can count on fans votes to be the most objective.

You know what gets me is that whenever Hamilton wins a poll it's because it's a British site full of Hamilton fans.

Zoue wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

AnRs wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:It's amazing how fuzz people's memories can be. Hamilton CLEARLY out-performed Vettel last season. This year has been even more clear but to say Vettel matched Hamilton's performance last season is inaccurate.

And still "people" voted Vettel as the most "driver off the day" in 2017, so perhaps he didn't do so bad https://www.formula1.com/en/results/awa ... -2017.html

Driver of the day voting sometimes doesn't say the whole story. If Hamilton wins from pol but Vettel has to slice through the crowd to get to the podium, guess who will get the DOTD vote. It is a bit unfair to the leading driver, as they can't do any "heroics" on track really.

yeah but OTOH how many heroics are involved in leading from the front? Verstappen said after his Mexican win last year that it was the easiest race he'd ever had. How does that really compare with someone who has to try and fight his way past others?

pokerman wrote: Indeed more often that not Hamilton does not get DoTD when he wins from pole, Japan would be the latest example.

Siao7 wrote:

Zoue wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

AnRs wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:It's amazing how fuzz people's memories can be. Hamilton CLEARLY out-performed Vettel last season. This year has been even more clear but to say Vettel matched Hamilton's performance last season is inaccurate.

And still "people" voted Vettel as the most "driver off the day" in 2017, so perhaps he didn't do so bad https://www.formula1.com/en/results/awa ... -2017.html

Driver of the day voting sometimes doesn't say the whole story. If Hamilton wins from pol but Vettel has to slice through the crowd to get to the podium, guess who will get the DOTD vote. It is a bit unfair to the leading driver, as they can't do any "heroics" on track really.

yeah but OTOH how many heroics are involved in leading from the front? Verstappen said after his Mexican win last year that it was the easiest race he'd ever had. How does that really compare with someone who has to try and fight his way past others?

This is why I said that it sometimes doesn't say the whole story. I personally think that the truth is somewhere in the middle. Sometimes you'd see Senna or Schumacher blast to a lead and then just cruise to victory. They were not challenged in the race, they were that good. It doesn't mean that they were not the top driver that day though, does it? Maybe it is that the driver fighting from the back gets more camera time than the leader, which is understandable. It is difficult to assess this, in my opinion at least.

But I do get your point that (at least I think I do!) if a driver doesn't have to do anything but cruise to victory, then he probably doesn't (have to) put his best performance on show that day. It probably makes him less deserving the DOTD, but equally it wouldn't be his fault.

pokerman wrote: Indeed more often that not Hamilton does not get DoTD when he wins from pole, Japan would be the latest example.

Agreed, but see above. The driver in the lead normally has one difficult task (the clean getaway) and then just to regulate his pace. He is not doing the "heroics" that would earn him the DOTD title. It is not his fault obviously, but equally he maybe didn't have to produce his best racecraft ever.

AnRs wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:It's amazing how fuzz people's memories can be. Hamilton CLEARLY out-performed Vettel last season. This year has been even more clear but to say Vettel matched Hamilton's performance last season is inaccurate.

And still "people" voted Vettel as the most "driver off the day" in 2017, so perhaps he didn't do so bad https://www.formula1.com/en/results/awa ... -2017.html

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Ocon wrote:

AnRs wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:It's amazing how fuzz people's memories can be. Hamilton CLEARLY out-performed Vettel last season. This year has been even more clear but to say Vettel matched Hamilton's performance last season is inaccurate.

And still "people" voted Vettel as the most "driver off the day" in 2017, so perhaps he didn't do so bad https://www.formula1.com/en/results/awa ... -2017.html

Yeah, you can count on fans votes to be the most objective.

You know what gets me is that whenever Hamilton wins a poll it's because it's a British site full of Hamilton fans.

Who says that?

Exediron wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Mr.Wojo wrote:Since we all like to play the what if game; in your opinion do you think that Michael Schumacher at 31 years of age would have won while driving this years Ferrari?

Depends how dominant Merc are for the remaining races.

Yeah, agreed. Peak Schumacher would have been leading the title going into Russia. Whether he'd be able to win it or not depends on what happens for the rest of the year. Merc's form post-Belgium is very strong, and I no longer consider Ferrari to have the better car.

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Ocon wrote:

AnRs wrote:
And still "people" voted Vettel as the most "driver off the day" in 2017, so perhaps he didn't do so bad https://www.formula1.com/en/results/awa ... -2017.html

Yeah, you can count on fans votes to be the most objective.

You know what gets me is that whenever Hamilton wins a poll it's because it's a British site full of Hamilton fans.

Who says that?

I'd rather not say, the poll result was accused of being biased.

The fact that Hamilton doesn't win that many DoTD awards despite the amount of races he wins I think shows how balanced the forum actually is.

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Ocon wrote: Yeah, you can count on fans votes to be the most objective.

You know what gets me is that whenever Hamilton wins a poll it's because it's a British site full of Hamilton fans.

Who says that?

I'd rather not say, the poll result was accused of being biased.

The fact that Hamilton doesn't win that many DoTD awards despite the amount of races he wins I think shows how balanced the forum actually is.

There is a very logical explanation for this, offered just in the posts above. Does that sound absurd to you? It is perfectly normal to think that a driver coming from behind has his work cut out for him and has to show his racecraft, while a driver at the front is pretty much cruising. It doesn't make him a bad driver, to the contrary, he has done very well to be there.

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

Exediron wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Mr.Wojo wrote:Since we all like to play the what if game; in your opinion do you think that Michael Schumacher at 31 years of age would have won while driving this years Ferrari?

Depends how dominant Merc are for the remaining races.

Yeah, agreed. Peak Schumacher would have been leading the title going into Russia. Whether he'd be able to win it or not depends on what happens for the rest of the year. Merc's form post-Belgium is very strong, and I no longer consider Ferrari to have the better car.

One thing you must ALWAYS when considering ANYTHING Shumeister!!!…

However fast the guy in his sister car, a 31 year old Michael is going to be a tad we bit faster AND will not make stupid mistakes, and he will be in the first 2 spots to begin with so all he has to do is chase and pressure the guy in front until he either makes a mistake or cooks his tires, at which time Michael would Zip on by and proceed to open up a gap just as fast as he would have at the opening of the race.

The ONLY thing that we need to keep in mind that Hamilton is eerily close to the same type of performance and if he's ultra-focused might not crack under pressure from Michael, but then again, knowing that it's Michael, whatever amount of pressure he's applying is automatically magnified a bit, so that might result in a mistake just the same.

Of all the drivers I've seen in F1, no one was as consistently better than his compatriots throughout their career the way Michael was.
This season is quite similar to 05 & 06 and if you look back to those seasons, you will see that under immense pressure the drivers in contention for the title made very few to no mistakes. All of them were so tough under pressure and the way they dealt with it was to apply more pressure on one another. To boot, Alonso only won the 06 title due to an extremely rare failure of a Ferrari engine that happened to be the one bolted onto Michael's car. To this day the most painful moment I've ever experienced watching F1. (outside of deaths of course)

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote: You know what gets me is that whenever Hamilton wins a poll it's because it's a British site full of Hamilton fans.

Who says that?

I'd rather not say, the poll result was accused of being biased.

The fact that Hamilton doesn't win that many DoTD awards despite the amount of races he wins I think shows how balanced the forum actually is.

There is a very logical explanation for this, offered just in the posts above. Does that sound absurd to you? It is perfectly normal to think that a driver coming from behind has his work cut out for him and has to show his racecraft, while a driver at the front is pretty much cruising. It doesn't make him a bad driver, to the contrary, he has done very well to be there.

I fully appreciate that, I'm just saying that if the forum was Hamilton biased then Hamilton winning would automatically ensure him the DoTD.

pokerman wrote: I fully appreciate that, I'm just saying that if the forum was Hamilton biased then Hamilton winning would automatically ensure him the DoTD.

AnRs wrote:

pokerman wrote: I fully appreciate that, I'm just saying that if the forum was Hamilton biased then Hamilton winning would automatically ensure him the DoTD.

So you mean if you're Hamilton biased you can't acknowledge that someone did a better drive in a not so fast car?

Siao7 wrote:

AnRs wrote:

pokerman wrote: I fully appreciate that, I'm just saying that if the forum was Hamilton biased then Hamilton winning would automatically ensure him the DoTD.

So you mean if you're Hamilton biased you can't acknowledge that someone did a better drive in a not so fast car?

I would imagine that this is the definition of being biased...