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There is little doubt in my mind after watching Q3 here that Honda now have the third best power unit. It clearly produces more power than the Renault now and reliability has been poor for both so there's no meaningful disadvantage there. Much of Honda's reliability issues are down to experimenting for next year anyway. Well it seems those experiments have paid off at last. They had teething problems with the upgraded engine in Russia but here in Japan, they have looked brilliant. P6 and P7 is an amazing outcome from qualifying. I think Red Bull have made an inspired decision and it will pay off for them. Unlike Renault, Honda are spending the same kind of money on their engine as Mercedes and Ferrari do.

Looking at Renault, I can't help but feel for Daniel. Okay, the works team has far better reliability than Red Bull due to cooling issues in the RB14 but the thing just has no power. The works team are now at the back of the midfield with their only other customer (McLaren) right behind them. Things are looking bleak.

If what you say is right Ricciardo and McLaren are going to be very very upset! If they make steady progress I wonder if there is potential to catch Mercedes?

Both Renault powered RB's ran all over the TR's today and Sainz finished in front of both of them.

Renault are upping their investment and have moved from 10th in the WCC in 2016 to currently best of the rest.

They're doing ok.

Jezza13 wrote:Both Renault powered RB's ran all over the TR's today and Sainz finished in front of both of them.

Renault are upping their investment and have moved from 10th in the WCC in 2016 to currently best of the rest.

They're doing ok.

Red Bull are in a totally different category than Toro Rosso. They are the big team and STR are the junior team. The cars are not in the same planet and Red Bull also blew by Ferrari and Mercedes customers. As for Sainz, he had a great race but it was really down to Hartly...being Hartly and Gasly cooking his tires. Starting the race on SS tires was not favorable for STR. The engine performed extremely well though.

sandman1347 wrote:

Jezza13 wrote:Both Renault powered RB's ran all over the TR's today and Sainz finished in front of both of them.

Renault are upping their investment and have moved from 10th in the WCC in 2016 to currently best of the rest.

They're doing ok.

Red Bull are in a totally different category than Toro Rosso. They are the big team and STR are the junior team. The cars are not in the same planet........

Ok so it's not about the engine then?

I'm just watching the race re-run on C4 and I think Helmut Marko said not the grid that he's hopeful Red Bull can challenge from the start with Honda for the championship.

Even if the Honda engine has improved, I'm a bit unsure it'll be able to compete with Merc/Ferrari for a bit yet. What do others think?

I'm not sure the Honda has been unreliable this year, I suspect that the frequent engine changes have been to introduce and test upgrades rather than because it has actually failed and needs replacing. I can't recall seeing a Honda engine break down during a session this year.

I agree, they have surpassed Renault and I think Red Bull have made the correct decision.

The budget and commitment Honda have makes me confident they will be competitive next season. Renault will be taking things very seriously as well as they want their Factory team to be a success. Hopefully that leads to the engine gap closing.

The relationship between Red Bull and Renault is now so toxic that RB almost had no choice but to look elsewhere.

Whilst all this is true I'm pretty sure that both Mercedes and Ferrari won't stand still over the winter. I think though the field will definitely bunch up.

I'd wait to see where Honda/Red Bull perform next season. They will be a true judge.

Don't forget though that Mclaren had the hardest years with that engine which was failing more than Renault by far.

Teddy007 wrote:I'd wait to see where Honda/Red Bull perform next season. They will be a true judge.

Don't forget though that Mclaren had the hardest years with that engine which was failing more than Renault by far.

Next season will be almost certainly too soon for the Red Bull Honda package to win the title. But running a full season with two Honda engined teams will be invaluable in terms of data and development. 2020 could be their year.

JN23 wrote:I'm just watching the race re-run on C4 and I think Helmut Marko said not the grid that he's hopeful Red Bull can challenge from the start with Honda for the championship.

Even if the Honda engine has improved, I'm a bit unsure it'll be able to compete with Merc/Ferrari for a bit yet. What do others think?

well if the Honda PU truly is better than the Renault already then I don't see why not. RB are already pretty competitive running the Renault, after all. They just miss out in qualifying but during the races they have often been more on the pace, albeit still behind overall. So if Honda gives them an upgrade (and, don't forget, it's reportedly lighter and more fuel efficient than the Renault, too), then they should only improve on this year's performance

RBR are usually a good 0.5 secs in race, and 0.75 secs in quali behind Merc/Ferrari. That'd roughly require a 75bhp net bump from Honda to fill that gap. Impossibruuu.

Honda has improved, but are still nowhere close to Merc and Ferrari imo. I do agree they are now ahead of Renault, but only because the latter has failed to improve measurably. That vaunted Spec C power unit is just so unimpressive and it doesn't even run properly.

Looks like Renault have thrown in the towel with their current engine design & have gone back to a clean sheet on the drawing board with a complete re-design for 2019.

https://www.essentiallysports.com/renau ... atch-2019/

Not so sure they passed Renault. It's only been one race. But even if they just caught Renault that would be a good effort and the momentum is a good sign for RBR even though Honda is still far behind Merc/Ferrari.

Renault on the other hand has improved the least. They themselves are not confident on the latest spec. Now Cyril is worried about Honda spend. So he was not worried about Merc/Ferrari spend all these years, just happy the his engine was 3rd and not 4th best. I fear Renault management has gone the way of mclaren.

sandman1347 wrote:There is little doubt in my mind after watching Q3 here that Honda now have the third best power unit. It clearly produces more power than the Renault now and reliability has been poor for both so there's no meaningful disadvantage there. Much of Honda's reliability issues are down to experimenting for next year anyway. Well it seems those experiments have paid off at last. They had teething problems with the upgraded engine in Russia but here in Japan, they have looked brilliant. P6 and P7 is an amazing outcome from qualifying. I think Red Bull have made an inspired decision and it will pay off for them. Unlike Renault, Honda are spending the same kind of money on their engine as Mercedes and Ferrari do.

Looking at Renault, I can't help but feel for Daniel. Okay, the works team has far better reliability than Red Bull due to cooling issues in the RB14 but the thing just has no power. The works team are now at the back of the midfield with their only other customer (McLaren) right behind them. Things are looking bleak.

Call me cynical but with regards to Ricciardo I do believe that he basically ran away from Verstappen, the future is with Red Bull Honda and not Renault, I see Ricciardo's career going into decline.

pokerman wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:There is little doubt in my mind after watching Q3 here that Honda now have the third best power unit. It clearly produces more power than the Renault now and reliability has been poor for both so there's no meaningful disadvantage there. Much of Honda's reliability issues are down to experimenting for next year anyway. Well it seems those experiments have paid off at last. They had teething problems with the upgraded engine in Russia but here in Japan, they have looked brilliant. P6 and P7 is an amazing outcome from qualifying. I think Red Bull have made an inspired decision and it will pay off for them. Unlike Renault, Honda are spending the same kind of money on their engine as Mercedes and Ferrari do.

Looking at Renault, I can't help but feel for Daniel. Okay, the works team has far better reliability than Red Bull due to cooling issues in the RB14 but the thing just has no power. The works team are now at the back of the midfield with their only other customer (McLaren) right behind them. Things are looking bleak.

Call me cynical but with regards to Ricciardo I do believe that he basically ran away from Verstappen, the future is with Red Bull Honda and not Renault, I see Ricciardo's career going into decline.

Yeah that’s my feeling too. And maybe Seb will run away from Leclerc too and be reunited with ricc at Renault. Then we get to see ricc vs Seb part 2, albeit marred in the midfield.

pokerman wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:There is little doubt in my mind after watching Q3 here that Honda now have the third best power unit. It clearly produces more power than the Renault now and reliability has been poor for both so there's no meaningful disadvantage there. Much of Honda's reliability issues are down to experimenting for next year anyway. Well it seems those experiments have paid off at last. They had teething problems with the upgraded engine in Russia but here in Japan, they have looked brilliant. P6 and P7 is an amazing outcome from qualifying. I think Red Bull have made an inspired decision and it will pay off for them. Unlike Renault, Honda are spending the same kind of money on their engine as Mercedes and Ferrari do.

Looking at Renault, I can't help but feel for Daniel. Okay, the works team has far better reliability than Red Bull due to cooling issues in the RB14 but the thing just has no power. The works team are now at the back of the midfield with their only other customer (McLaren) right behind them. Things are looking bleak.

Call me cynical but with regards to Ricciardo I do believe that he basically ran away from Verstappen, the future is with Red Bull Honda and not Renault, I see Ricciardo's career going into decline.

Much as I would want to think the opposite I think you might be right, the only upside is that I have a hunch he will end up at Ferrari.

All ye of little faith.

Renault convinced Ricciardo to join by showing him some dyno numbers of the new donk.

WC in 2020 & 21.

Verstappen to be lead driver at Williams when RB take their spanners & leave after Honda continue to disappoint.

You read it here first fellow forumites.

Jezza13 wrote:All ye of little faith.

Renault convinced Ricciardo to join by showing him some dyno numbers of the new donk.

WC in 2020 & 21.

Verstappen to be lead driver at Williams when RB take their spanners & leave after Honda continue to disappoint.

You read it here first fellow forumites.

Bold prediction... I like it

According to this Honda were 15bhp down but now are 20bhp up on Renault.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/honda-to- ... in-russia/

Mercedes-Benz wrote:According to this Honda were 15bhp down but now are 20bhp up on Renault.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/honda-to- ... in-russia/

If that is true then it looks really bad for Mclaren and calls to question Alonso's "Now we can fight" comments at Melbourne, as they seem to have in fact gone from bad to worse. If this trend continues next year then it means Red Bull have made a potential masterstroke and on Mclaren more heads will roll.

froze wrote:

Mercedes-Benz wrote:According to this Honda were 15bhp down but now are 20bhp up on Renault.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/honda-to- ... in-russia/

If that is true then it looks really bad for Mclaren and calls to question Alonso's "Now we can fight" comments at Melbourne, as they seem to have in fact gone from bad to worse. If this trend continues next year then it means Red Bull have made a potential masterstroke and on Mclaren more heads will roll.

What heads are left to roll though? That's about as close to an admission they got it wrong dumping Honda as we're going to get I think. (Firing the three heads Goss,Morris and Boullier)

I don't think Oijeh and the Bahraini's will blame Zak for passing on info and recommendations gathered by those 3 and Prod gets a pass as head of Aero as his bits are still being copied up and down the grid even now and he's still a talented guy.

Lotus49 wrote:

froze wrote:

Mercedes-Benz wrote:According to this Honda were 15bhp down but now are 20bhp up on Renault.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/honda-to- ... in-russia/

If that is true then it looks really bad for Mclaren and calls to question Alonso's "Now we can fight" comments at Melbourne, as they seem to have in fact gone from bad to worse. If this trend continues next year then it means Red Bull have made a potential masterstroke and on Mclaren more heads will roll.

What heads are left to roll though? That's about as close to an admission they got it wrong dumping Honda as we're going to get I think. (Firing the three heads Goss,Morris and Boullier)

I don't think Oijeh and the Bahraini's will blame Zak for passing on info and recommendations gathered by those 3 and Prod gets a pass as head of Aero as his bits are still being copied up and down the grid even now and he's still a talented guy.

Yeah he's really sharp. I've noticed all the big boys copying McLaren's ideas this season when it comes to aerodynamics. I also agree that there's no more need to fire people. McLaren need to lick their wounds and begin to maneuver towards regaining a Mercedes engine. It's the only long-term solution that makes any sense.

Alonso kind of pressured them to drop Honda and now he's leaving ! At least Honda were paying them ! McLaren have been delusional since thinking they couldn't win with a Mercedes engine. At least they know now that they actually got to build the best car too before worrying about the engine. I really fancy the Red Bull/Honda next year ...

mas wrote:Alonso kind of pressured them to drop Honda and now he's leaving ! At least Honda were paying them ! McLaren have been delusional since thinking they couldn't win with a Mercedes engine. At least they know now that they actually got to build the best car too before worrying about the engine. I really fancy the Red Bull/Honda next year ...

I've wondered that myself, would McLaren have dropped Honda if Alonso had not been driving for them?

Probably not as they were making slow progress. That's twice he's screwed McLaren !

mas wrote:Probably not as they were making slow progress. That's twice he's screwed McLaren !

...or twice they've screwed one another, not the partnership of legends.

froze wrote:

Mercedes-Benz wrote:According to this Honda were 15bhp down but now are 20bhp up on Renault.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/honda-to- ... in-russia/

If that is true then it looks really bad for Mclaren and calls to question Alonso's "Now we can fight" comments at Melbourne, as they seem to have in fact gone from bad to worse. If this trend continues next year then it means Red Bull have made a potential masterstroke and on Mclaren more heads will roll.

I think RBR has nothing to loose with Honda. Probably they will take more penalties than others but on Friday, Saturday to avoid any risk for the race. MV cleared midfield so easily in Russia and Ricciardo as well in Suzuka is pretty disappointing. Hopefully midfield teams and especially Renault will make it hard for them if not finish ahead. Right now they are just moving chicane

Mercedes-Benz wrote:

froze wrote:

Mercedes-Benz wrote:According to this Honda were 15bhp down but now are 20bhp up on Renault.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/honda-to- ... in-russia/

If that is true then it looks really bad for Mclaren and calls to question Alonso's "Now we can fight" comments at Melbourne, as they seem to have in fact gone from bad to worse. If this trend continues next year then it means Red Bull have made a potential masterstroke and on Mclaren more heads will roll.

I think RBR has nothing to loose with Honda. Probably they will take more penalties than others but on Friday, Saturday to avoid any risk for the race. MV cleared midfield so easily in Russia and Ricciardo as well in Suzuka is pretty disappointing. Hopefully midfield teams and especially Renault will make it hard for them if not finish ahead. Right now they are just moving chicane

That's true unless Renault are able to narrow the gap to Mercedes and Ferrari engines with their "completely new engine". When Mclaren switched from Mercedes power to Honda, I think the argument was that they were not able to beat the Mercedes factory team with the same engine. Red Bull on the other hand have been always beating the Renault factory team with the same engine, so all that should be left is for Renault engine to produce more horsepower to get on par with Mercedes and Ferrari. Let's not forget that Red Bull have already been able to challenge the top two teams in some races even with the inferior PU.

That being said, it remains to be seen whether Honda will be able to beat Renault in the long run, so Red Bull's decision to go with Honda is like flipping a coin with some additional benefits coming from gaining a de facto factory team status. So I don't think the switch to Honda is automatically a masterstroke. It could be, but it could also fail. To me it seems like 50/50 at this point.

froze wrote:

Mercedes-Benz wrote:

froze wrote:

Mercedes-Benz wrote:According to this Honda were 15bhp down but now are 20bhp up on Renault.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/honda-to- ... in-russia/

If that is true then it looks really bad for Mclaren and calls to question Alonso's "Now we can fight" comments at Melbourne, as they seem to have in fact gone from bad to worse. If this trend continues next year then it means Red Bull have made a potential masterstroke and on Mclaren more heads will roll.

I think RBR has nothing to loose with Honda. Probably they will take more penalties than others but on Friday, Saturday to avoid any risk for the race. MV cleared midfield so easily in Russia and Ricciardo as well in Suzuka is pretty disappointing. Hopefully midfield teams and especially Renault will make it hard for them if not finish ahead. Right now they are just moving chicane

That's true unless Renault are able to narrow the gap to Mercedes and Ferrari engines with their "completely new engine". When Mclaren switched from Mercedes power to Honda, I think the argument was that they were not able to beat the Mercedes factory team with the same engine. Red Bull on the other hand have been always beating the Renault factory team with the same engine, so all that should be left is for Renault engine to produce more horsepower top get on par with Mercedes and Ferrari. Let's not forget that Red Bull have already been able to challenge the top two teams in some races even with the inferior PU.

That being said, it remains to be seen whether Honda will be able to beat Renault in the long run, so Red Bull's decision to go with Honda is like flipping a coin with some additional benefits coming from gaining a de facto factory team status. So I don't think the switch to Honda is automatically a masterstroke. It could be, but it could also fail. To me it seems like 50/50 at this point.

No I think Red Bull have made the right decision given the progress Honda have made this season whilst Renault seem to have been treading water, going forward Honda seem prepared to spend the money to be successful unlike Renault.

pokerman wrote:

froze wrote:

Mercedes-Benz wrote:

froze wrote:

Mercedes-Benz wrote:According to this Honda were 15bhp down but now are 20bhp up on Renault.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/honda-to- ... in-russia/

If that is true then it looks really bad for Mclaren and calls to question Alonso's "Now we can fight" comments at Melbourne, as they seem to have in fact gone from bad to worse. If this trend continues next year then it means Red Bull have made a potential masterstroke and on Mclaren more heads will roll.

I think RBR has nothing to loose with Honda. Probably they will take more penalties than others but on Friday, Saturday to avoid any risk for the race. MV cleared midfield so easily in Russia and Ricciardo as well in Suzuka is pretty disappointing. Hopefully midfield teams and especially Renault will make it hard for them if not finish ahead. Right now they are just moving chicane

That's true unless Renault are able to narrow the gap to Mercedes and Ferrari engines with their "completely new engine". When Mclaren switched from Mercedes power to Honda, I think the argument was that they were not able to beat the Mercedes factory team with the same engine. Red Bull on the other hand have been always beating the Renault factory team with the same engine, so all that should be left is for Renault engine to produce more horsepower top get on par with Mercedes and Ferrari. Let's not forget that Red Bull have already been able to challenge the top two teams in some races even with the inferior PU.

That being said, it remains to be seen whether Honda will be able to beat Renault in the long run, so Red Bull's decision to go with Honda is like flipping a coin with some additional benefits coming from gaining a de facto factory team status. So I don't think the switch to Honda is automatically a masterstroke. It could be, but it could also fail. To me it seems like 50/50 at this point.

No I think Red Bull have made the right decision given the progress Honda have made this season whilst Renault seem to have been treading water, going forward Honda seem prepared to spend the money to be successful unlike Renault.

Didn't Honda also make progress through 2015 and 2016 to only then fail miserably on 2017. Who's to say that won't happen again next year. That's why I won't be saying yet that it's a good decision, because it's still a huge gamble.

froze wrote:

pokerman wrote:

froze wrote:

Mercedes-Benz wrote:

froze wrote: If that is true then it looks really bad for Mclaren and calls to question Alonso's "Now we can fight" comments at Melbourne, as they seem to have in fact gone from bad to worse. If this trend continues next year then it means Red Bull have made a potential masterstroke and on Mclaren more heads will roll.

I think RBR has nothing to loose with Honda. Probably they will take more penalties than others but on Friday, Saturday to avoid any risk for the race. MV cleared midfield so easily in Russia and Ricciardo as well in Suzuka is pretty disappointing. Hopefully midfield teams and especially Renault will make it hard for them if not finish ahead. Right now they are just moving chicane

That's true unless Renault are able to narrow the gap to Mercedes and Ferrari engines with their "completely new engine". When Mclaren switched from Mercedes power to Honda, I think the argument was that they were not able to beat the Mercedes factory team with the same engine. Red Bull on the other hand have been always beating the Renault factory team with the same engine, so all that should be left is for Renault engine to produce more horsepower top get on par with Mercedes and Ferrari. Let's not forget that Red Bull have already been able to challenge the top two teams in some races even with the inferior PU.

That being said, it remains to be seen whether Honda will be able to beat Renault in the long run, so Red Bull's decision to go with Honda is like flipping a coin with some additional benefits coming from gaining a de facto factory team status. So I don't think the switch to Honda is automatically a masterstroke. It could be, but it could also fail. To me it seems like 50/50 at this point.

No I think Red Bull have made the right decision given the progress Honda have made this season whilst Renault seem to have been treading water, going forward Honda seem prepared to spend the money to be successful unlike Renault.

Didn't Honda also make progress through 2015 and 2016 to only then fail miserably on 2017. Who's to say that won't happen again next year. That's why I won't be saying yet that it's a good decision, because it's still a huge gamble.

I think it's fair to say that Honda have moved on from 2017.

Honda should surpass Renault. They're Honda. They're the largest manufacturer of racing engines in the world.

What's staggering is how many missteps McLaren has taken. They have become a complete joke of a team. Just like that, they're back to the worst power plant on the grid with a bad chassis.

Max will win at least one championship with Red Bull Honda. I'm confident of that. I see massive improvement from Honda and I also recognize the one thing that everyone seems to be missing. With the added budget that Honda are bringing to the table, Red Bull Honda will have a budget that is at least on par with Mercedes starting next season. I think that it's a matter of time until they are back to being the best out there. Mercedes can't win forever.

With the new generation Honda power units starting at the back in Austin, how far up the grid will Gasly and Hartley be able to push their Toro Rossos up into the points???

Should be relatively easy to pass the Williams and McLaren cars as neither team has shown much this weekend.

Would love to see both TRs get up into the points.

Mort Canard wrote:With the new generation Honda power units starting at the back in Austin, how far up the grid will Gasly and Hartley be able to push their Toro Rossos up into the points???

Should be relatively easy to pass the Williams and McLaren cars as neither team has shown much this weekend.

Would love to see both TRs get up into the points.

I don't see it happening. Haas, Force India and Renault are all as quick or quicker than Toro Rosso, and without a safety car they'll have built up too much of a lead to overcome by the time Gasly gets up to that pack. Verstappen will get them all, though.

pokerman wrote: I think it's fair to say that Honda have moved on from 2017.

You would've said the same thing in 2016 about 2015.

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote: I think it's fair to say that Honda have moved on from 2017.

You would've said the same thing in 2016 about 2015.

No I think they have moved on on, more forward steps then backward steps, I see them surpassing Renault next year.