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j man wrote:If that was his intention then he'd have been better off using a photo that doesn't highlight how close Vettel was

If it wasn't he would not have shown himself frowning on the podium with Putin doing the same (and by the way, Putin awarded him, note...) and another photo of his very move wherein Hamilton was allowed to pass.

Ocon wrote:

Bacus wrote:

Fiki wrote:

Bacus wrote:Aren't people used to team orders by now? It always happened at the top teams and probably will continue happening.
There are 5 races to go and they(Merc) need to make sure their driver will be WDC.
I'm sorry about Bottas but what does he expect? He's in a top team next to a 4th time world champion, and he's not considered a top tier driver. He's lucky he got a seat at this team (most would agree).
Of course you'd expect these kind of situations. They aren't pretty but it's part of F1.

The problem isn't getting used to team orders. It is the use of unnecessary team orders. And the necessity is something that can form a point for discussion. But with the points lead he has now, Hamilton should be larger than his team. But, unfortunately for his fans, he isn't.

It was not an 'unnecessary team order'. With 40 points lead and 5 races to go things still can happen. Hamilton lost the WDC in 2007 with an advantage like that, or greater with 2-3 races to go(his fault or something else doesn't matter - the idea is that nothing is certain).
Who said he's larger than his team? I'm sure he didn't ask about that switch. Thee are drivers in this field who asked on the radio for his team-mate to move aside (on top of my mind is Alonso and Vettel).
Team's first priority is the drivers WDC and they do anything they can to assure that until mathematically its impossible, simple.

Exactly. Bottas is surely professional enough to understand this.

Of course Bottas is professional enough to understand that. Even I understand that line of reasoning. What I don't understand is what I didn't see: the necessity. Desirable it may have been, though the fact that both drivers scored points, with Bottas needing more of them than Hamilton, argues against that. But necessary? As they say in Maxland: make that the cat wise!

Apparently Mercedes lied to Bottas about giving him the place back. That’s really ugly and shows what kind of team they really are. But of course, Ferrari are the ones who do team orders.

Ferrari couldn’t even muster the courage to tell Kimi to get out of the way in Germany for 10 laps, when Vettel was on a different strategy.

KingVoid wrote:Apparently Mercedes lied to Bottas about giving him the place back. That’s really ugly and shows what kind of team they really are. But of course, Ferrari are the ones who do team orders.

Ferrari couldn’t even muster the courage to tell Kimi to get out of the way in Germany for 10 laps, when Vettel was on a different strategy.

Where are you hearing that?

Ocon wrote:
Hamilton has something to lose by not getting these points, while it won't matter for Bottas if he gets a few points less. I would understand the reaction if Lewis had already secured the title but at this point it's just unreasonable to to not help the guy who is in a ongoing WDC fight. People are assuming that he is destroyed by this, without having any idea how he feels about it.

I doubt he cares about the points. This was a win. Something he hasn't achieved that many of even if he is in the best car. And if it's true that he was lied to he has my full sympathy.

KingVoid wrote:Apparently Mercedes lied to Bottas about giving him the place back. That’s really ugly and shows what kind of team they really are. But of course, Ferrari are the ones who do team orders.

Ferrari couldn’t even muster the courage to tell Kimi to get out of the way in Germany for 10 laps, when Vettel was on a different strategy.

Ferrari have moved Kimi around plenty for Vettel. Let's not attempt revision of history. I think Mercedes overreached today and did so unnecessarily. It's not the first time either. They chose to get involved in the last race in 2016 unnecessarily as well.

I think that, in the long run, what they did today wasn't worth it. It has likely soured their relationship with Bottas permanently as well as the relationship between Hamilton and Bottas. This is the first time Bottas has truly had to sacrifice something due to team orders and it comes at a time when a win would mean so much to him after such a difficult year. It also comes at a time when Hamilton was always going to increase his lead over Vettel. I think they should have given him back the place Once Verstappen pitted and the field spread a bit. The extra 7 points for Hamilton maybe increases his odds from 90% to 95% for the WDC this year but it might have caused more damage to the team's legacy and to their immediate future than is worth that margin. Now Bottas will have to consider whether or not it's actually in his best interest to follow the team's instructions. That doubt was not there before. Any team order for him in the past has been fair and logical in nature but today they overreached.

At the end of the day, people will get over this and move on. It was brutal but it wan't unprecedented nor was it indefensible. This is what you do when you are being extremely cautious. If they hadn't done it and a series of fluke miracles occurred; handing Vettel the WDC, they would be beside themselves with regret and the same people bashing them now would be calling them idiots...

KingVoid wrote:Apparently Mercedes lied to Bottas about giving him the place back. That’s really ugly and shows what kind of team they really are. But of course, Ferrari are the ones who do team orders.

Ferrari couldn’t even muster the courage to tell Kimi to get out of the way in Germany for 10 laps, when Vettel was on a different strategy.

Have not heard that they promised him to to be able to get back by. Do you have a quote?

sandman1347 wrote:

KingVoid wrote:Apparently Mercedes lied to Bottas about giving him the place back. That’s really ugly and shows what kind of team they really are. But of course, Ferrari are the ones who do team orders.

Ferrari couldn’t even muster the courage to tell Kimi to get out of the way in Germany for 10 laps, when Vettel was on a different strategy.

Ferrari have moved Kimi around plenty for Vettel. Let's not attempt revision of history. I think Mercedes overreached today and did so unnecessarily. It's not the first time either. They chose to get involved in the last race in 2016 unnecessarily as well.

I think that, in the long run, what they did today wasn't worth it. It has likely soured their relationship with Bottas permanently as well as the relationship between Hamilton and Bottas. This is the first time Bottas has truly had to sacrifice something due to team orders and it comes at a time when a win would mean so much to him after such a difficult year. It also comes at a time when Hamilton was always going to increase his lead over Vettel. I think they should have given him back the place Once Verstappen pitted and the field spread a bit. The extra 7 points for Hamilton maybe increases his odds from 90% to 95% for the WDC this year but it might have caused more damage to the team's legacy and to their immediate future than is worth that margin. Now Bottas will have to consider whether or not it's actually in his best interest to follow the team's instructions. That doubt was not there before. Any team order for him in the past has been fair and logical in nature but today they overreached.

At the end of the day, people will get over this and move on. It was brutal but it wan't unprecedented nor was it indefensible. This is what you do when you are being extremely cautious. If they hadn't done it and a series of fluke miracles occurred; handing Vettel the WDC, they would be beside themselves with regret and the same people bashing them now would be calling them idiots...

There is one element of the team orders that makes sense to me. Bottas was holding Lewis up a bit and Sebastian was catching Lewis. Sebastian may have been willing to try a lower percentage pass on Lewis, who he is focused on, than he would on Valtteri. Valtteri is out of contention with Sebastian and Seb would not want to chance a shunt to get by him. Seb might try something risky if he could get past Lewis.

Mort Canard wrote:

KingVoid wrote:Apparently Mercedes lied to Bottas about giving him the place back. That’s really ugly and shows what kind of team they really are. But of course, Ferrari are the ones who do team orders.

Ferrari couldn’t even muster the courage to tell Kimi to get out of the way in Germany for 10 laps, when Vettel was on a different strategy.

Have not heard that they promised him to to be able to get back by. Do you have a quote?

I would need to hear Bottas's radio call about it again, but it certainly gave me the impression he was expecting it. If not switching back was part of the plan, there would be nothing to talk about after the race, would there? It would just be Hockenheim 2010 without having to lie about it. But, as I said, I would like to hear or read that call again.

KingVoid wrote:Apparently Mercedes lied to Bottas about giving him the place back. That’s really ugly and shows what kind of team they really are. But of course, Ferrari are the ones who do team orders.

Ferrari couldn’t even muster the courage to tell Kimi to get out of the way in Germany for 10 laps, when Vettel was on a different strategy.

So you say 'Apparently' then continue as if its fact.

If they said this it would have been aired or at least the TV comms would know.

Clarky wrote:

KingVoid wrote:Apparently Mercedes lied to Bottas about giving him the place back. That’s really ugly and shows what kind of team they really are. But of course, Ferrari are the ones who do team orders.

Ferrari couldn’t even muster the courage to tell Kimi to get out of the way in Germany for 10 laps, when Vettel was on a different strategy.

So you say 'Apparently' then continue as if its fact.

If they said this it would have been aired or at least the TV comms would know.

Tbf not necessarily as only some stuff is played out, we heard the order given to Bottas but nothing else so there could have been further discussion on the radio.

That said I think this rumour would have been picked up by a legit news site by now if it held any truth. I imagine it's just people speculating on it because Bottas asked if they would switch back at the end. I doubt any switch back was promised, unless it's some sort of general pre race agreement/policy that positions will be returned to normal if there are no cars between them or something.

Fiki wrote:Of course Bottas is professional enough to understand that. Even I understand that line of reasoning. What I don't understand is what I didn't see: the necessity. Desirable it may have been, though the fact that both drivers scored points, with Bottas needing more of them than Hamilton, argues against that. But necessary? As they say in Maxland: make that the cat wise!

I think it was absolutely necessary, as long as the title isn't secured. Hamilton is fighting for a 5th WDC. This is a historical feat almost unrivaled. I think that's more important than Bottas scoring a few more points.

Black_Flag_11 wrote:

Clarky wrote:

KingVoid wrote:Apparently Mercedes lied to Bottas about giving him the place back. That’s really ugly and shows what kind of team they really are. But of course, Ferrari are the ones who do team orders.

Ferrari couldn’t even muster the courage to tell Kimi to get out of the way in Germany for 10 laps, when Vettel was on a different strategy.

So you say 'Apparently' then continue as if its fact.

If they said this it would have been aired or at least the TV comms would know.

Tbf not necessarily as only some stuff is played out, we heard the order given to Bottas but nothing else so there could have been further discussion on the radio.

That said I think this rumour would have been picked up by a legit news site by now if it held any truth. I imagine it's just people speculating on it because Bottas asked if they would switch back at the end. I doubt any switch back was promised, unless it's some sort of general pre race agreement/policy that positions will be returned to normal if there are no cars between them or something.

It could be that they did say he would get the place back, but later changed their mind, also. Then it's not a lie.

The closest thing I heard was Paul Di Resta's conjecture that Lewis might let Valtteri back by at the end. He never claimed that the idea came from Merc, James Vowles, or Toto Wolff.

Ocon wrote:

Fiki wrote:Of course Bottas is professional enough to understand that. Even I understand that line of reasoning. What I don't understand is what I didn't see: the necessity. Desirable it may have been, though the fact that both drivers scored points, with Bottas needing more of them than Hamilton, argues against that. But necessary? As they say in Maxland: make that the cat wise!

I think it was absolutely necessary, as long as the title isn't secured. Hamilton is fighting for a 5th WDC. This is a historical feat almost unrivaled. I think that's more important than Bottas scoring a few more points.

Again. In Bottas case it's not the points. It was a crucial win.

Ocon wrote:

Fiki wrote:Of course Bottas is professional enough to understand that. Even I understand that line of reasoning. What I don't understand is what I didn't see: the necessity. Desirable it may have been, though the fact that both drivers scored points, with Bottas needing more of them than Hamilton, argues against that. But necessary? As they say in Maxland: make that the cat wise!

I think it was absolutely necessary, as long as the title isn't secured. Hamilton is fighting for a 5th WDC. This is a historical feat almost unrivaled. I think that's more important than Bottas scoring a few more points.

Scoring a few more points... If you really don't understand that today wasn't just about a few more points for Hamilton, then I won't bother.
But I will add that your "historical feat almost unrivaled" made me smile! Typing that just made me smile again.

Ocon wrote:
It could be that they did say he would get the place back, but later changed their mind, also. Then it's not a lie.

Ocon wrote:

Fiki wrote:Of course Bottas is professional enough to understand that. Even I understand that line of reasoning. What I don't understand is what I didn't see: the necessity. Desirable it may have been, though the fact that both drivers scored points, with Bottas needing more of them than Hamilton, argues against that. But necessary? As they say in Maxland: make that the cat wise!

I think it was absolutely necessary, as long as the title isn't secured. Hamilton is fighting for a 5th WDC. This is a historical feat almost unrivaled. I think that's more important than Bottas scoring a few more points.

Mercedes needs to start supporting Valtteri. He started the day three points behind Kimi for third and finished three points ahead of Kimi. VB=189 to KR=186. Mercedes at least owe Valtteri the support to take third overall in the championship.

Mr-E wrote:

Ocon wrote:

Fiki wrote:Of course Bottas is professional enough to understand that. Even I understand that line of reasoning. What I don't understand is what I didn't see: the necessity. Desirable it may have been, though the fact that both drivers scored points, with Bottas needing more of them than Hamilton, argues against that. But necessary? As they say in Maxland: make that the cat wise!

I think it was absolutely necessary, as long as the title isn't secured. Hamilton is fighting for a 5th WDC. This is a historical feat almost unrivaled. I think that's more important than Bottas scoring a few more points.

Again. In Bottas case it's not the points. It was a crucial win.

Sorry I didn't see your post. I was answering his post which didn't mention the win, only points. But to answer yours, I think the WDC is more important than Bottas getting a win. It comes down to the fact that Lewis is competing for WDC.

Mort Canard wrote:

Ocon wrote:

Fiki wrote:Of course Bottas is professional enough to understand that. Even I understand that line of reasoning. What I don't understand is what I didn't see: the necessity. Desirable it may have been, though the fact that both drivers scored points, with Bottas needing more of them than Hamilton, argues against that. But necessary? As they say in Maxland: make that the cat wise!

I think it was absolutely necessary, as long as the title isn't secured. Hamilton is fighting for a 5th WDC. This is a historical feat almost unrivaled. I think that's more important than Bottas scoring a few more points.

Mercedes needs to start supporting Valtteri. He started the day three points behind Kimi for third and finished three points ahead of Kimi. VB=189 to KR=186. Mercedes at least owe Valtteri the support to take third overall in the championship.

They probably will when the WDC is secured.

Mr-E wrote:

Ocon wrote:
It could be that they did say he would get the place back, but later changed their mind, also. Then it's not a lie.

It is possible, that's all I'm saying, even though it is unlikely. It's more likely that they never even promised him to switch back.

Ocon wrote:

Mr-E wrote:

Ocon wrote:
It could be that they did say he would get the place back, but later changed their mind, also. Then it's not a lie.

It is possible, that's all I'm saying, even though it is unlikely. It's more likely that they never even promised him to switch back.

That was not what I found funny but the fact that it wouldn't be a lie if they changed their mind.

Fiki wrote:

Ocon wrote:

Fiki wrote:Of course Bottas is professional enough to understand that. Even I understand that line of reasoning. What I don't understand is what I didn't see: the necessity. Desirable it may have been, though the fact that both drivers scored points, with Bottas needing more of them than Hamilton, argues against that. But necessary? As they say in Maxland: make that the cat wise!

I think it was absolutely necessary, as long as the title isn't secured. Hamilton is fighting for a 5th WDC. This is a historical feat almost unrivaled. I think that's more important than Bottas scoring a few more points.

Scoring a few more points... If you really don't understand that today wasn't just about a few more points for Hamilton, then I won't bother.
But I will add that your "historical feat almost unrivaled" made me smile! Typing that just made me smile again.

A few fans will be disgruntled and a few drivers sacrificed(ask Schumis teammates) on the way to the making of a potentially 5+ WDC winning driver, people will just have to deal with it.

Mr-E wrote:

Ocon wrote:

Mr-E wrote:

Ocon wrote:
It could be that they did say he would get the place back, but later changed their mind, also. Then it's not a lie.

It is possible, that's all I'm saying, even though it is unlikely. It's more likely that they never even promised him to switch back.

That was not what I found funny but the fact that it wouldn't be a lie if they changed their mind.

True, it is funny.

Ocon wrote:

Fiki wrote:Of course Bottas is professional enough to understand that. Even I understand that line of reasoning. What I don't understand is what I didn't see: the necessity. Desirable it may have been, though the fact that both drivers scored points, with Bottas needing more of them than Hamilton, argues against that. But necessary? As they say in Maxland: make that the cat wise!

I think it was absolutely necessary, as long as the title isn't secured. Hamilton is fighting for a 5th WDC. This is a historical feat almost unrivaled. I think that's more important than Bottas scoring a few more points.

I think you have to be careful with being overly concerned with the increasingly remote possibility of a Vettel comeback. Is it really worth damaging your relationship with one of your drivers and the very chemistry of the team (which has been very harmonious these last two seasons) in order to add 7 points to an already massive lead? Perhaps it is. Perhaps there will be a fluke series of events that will bring Vettel back into the championship and make this decision worth it but I think that's unlikely.

Toto made a rough decision today and it's a decision that puts a bit of a damper on this race. It also adds an ugly blemish to a season that I think had earned Mercedes a ton of respect and admiration. That's that cold, calculated (dare I say) German thought process. I think that Valteri would likely have been able to keep his win had he been able to build a gap and spread the field but it seemed his race pace was bottlenecking both Hamilton and Vettel at the front and the proximity of those two to each other meant that one incident or mistake could have transformed the race into one in which Vettel closes the points gap. I understand the decision but I genuinely think it was the wrong choice.

For the record, the only thing I would have changed is giving the position back later on. The initial swap was totally justified IMO.

Mort Canard wrote:

Johnson wrote:

Mort Canard wrote:

Johnson wrote:

Mort Canard wrote:
Yeah. In 2015 Lewis clinched and then Nico won the last three races with Lewis cruising home second.

Rosberg was Hamilton’s match for the last 10 races in 2015. Hamilton just managed to muscle by a turn 1 quite a few times. Nico has 7 straight poles. The only difference was Nico didn’t lose the lead at the start in the last 3

The six previous races were ALL won by Lewis except Singapore where he retired with a power unit malfunction.

Those 6 wins-
Monza- Nico on an old engine
Japan- Nico on pole but Hamilton pushes him off the road at turn 1
USA- Nico dominated Hamilton before a SC lost him all his lead. Then he ran wide a Lewis overtook him.
Russia- Nico pole, dominating and going to win before throttle failure.

Rosberg best period against Hamilton was the 2nd half of 2015

My point was that after fighting hammer and tongs with Nico from the Spa race through the USGP, Lewis cruised to a comfortable second place in Mexico, Brazil, and Abu Dhabi, when he had clinched the championship. Lewis did put an effort to win in the last three races but was content to consolidate his position in second in those races. No over the top effort needed.

The only difference in the last 3 races was Hamilton was unable to take the lead at the start at turn 1. Rosbergs form was very strong long before the final 3 races. Whichever driver lead after turn 1, won the race.

Hamilton also didn't cruise in the last 3 races, he spent 15 laps moaning and begging the team for an alternative strategy in Abu Dhabi. Hardly the action of a man content with P2.

sandman1347 wrote: I think you have to be careful with being overly concerned with the increasingly remote possibility of a Vettel comeback. Is it really worth damaging your relationship with one of your drivers and the very chemistry of the team (which has been very harmonious these last two seasons) in order to add 7 points to an already massive lead? Perhaps it is. Perhaps there will be a fluke series of events that will bring Vettel back into the championship and make this decision worth it but I think that's unlikely.

Toto made a rough decision today and it's a decision that puts a bit of a damper on this race. It also adds an ugly blemish to a season that I think had earned Mercedes a ton of respect and admiration. That's that cold, calculated (dare I say) German thought process. I think that Valteri would likely have been able to keep his win had he been able to build a gap and spread the field but it seemed his race pace was bottlenecking both Hamilton and Vettel at the front and the proximity of those two to each other meant that one incident or mistake could have transformed the race into one in which Vettel closes the points gap. I understand the decision but I genuinely think it was the wrong choice.

For the record, the only thing I would have changed is giving the position back later on. The initial swap was totally justified IMO.

We can all speculate about how much this will affect things between Bottas, Hamilton and the team, but it's all it is, speculation. If you assume that this will be a problem down the line, then you don't do it, if you're Merc. But they know a lot more than we do about what the agreement is between team and drivers, and what Bottas stance is on situations like this. I doubt that they would do what they did today if they thought there was a possibilty of losing Bottas trust. Personally, I think that this isn't something too out of the ordinary for Bottas compared to what he's done before for Lewis. And it's highly unlikely that there will be a problem down the line. A short term issue is probably the worst case scenario here, but I don't see it in the long term.

Regarding the big lead Lewis has over Vettel, that can change pretty quick with a DNF. You have to be ruthless in these situations if you want guaranteed success.

Mort Canard wrote:

Ocon wrote:

Fiki wrote:Of course Bottas is professional enough to understand that. Even I understand that line of reasoning. What I don't understand is what I didn't see: the necessity. Desirable it may have been, though the fact that both drivers scored points, with Bottas needing more of them than Hamilton, argues against that. But necessary? As they say in Maxland: make that the cat wise!

I think it was absolutely necessary, as long as the title isn't secured. Hamilton is fighting for a 5th WDC. This is a historical feat almost unrivaled. I think that's more important than Bottas scoring a few more points.

Mercedes needs to start supporting Valtteri. He started the day three points behind Kimi for third and finished three points ahead of Kimi. VB=189 to KR=186. Mercedes at least owe Valtteri the support to take third overall in the championship.

I would think Mercedes have 2 priorities
- Winning the WDC and then the Constructors Championship.

No disrespect to Kimi or Bottas - but whether your 3rd or 4th in the WDC it doesn't really make a great deal of difference.

This from a post on Reddit:

Liberty, it's embarrassing to watch people chasing the drivers like they stole just to get a "heat of the moment interview" right after they get out of the car, please stop that.

I just watched Di Resta chasing Hamilton around and it's just a bad comedy. Let the drivers celebrate or whatever, let them cooldown, you can get plenty of interviews after that from them.

Please go back to the interviews on the podium!!!

Xink wrote:

Mort Canard wrote:

Ocon wrote:

Fiki wrote:Of course Bottas is professional enough to understand that. Even I understand that line of reasoning. What I don't understand is what I didn't see: the necessity. Desirable it may have been, though the fact that both drivers scored points, with Bottas needing more of them than Hamilton, argues against that. But necessary? As they say in Maxland: make that the cat wise!

I think it was absolutely necessary, as long as the title isn't secured. Hamilton is fighting for a 5th WDC. This is a historical feat almost unrivaled. I think that's more important than Bottas scoring a few more points.

Mercedes needs to start supporting Valtteri. He started the day three points behind Kimi for third and finished three points ahead of Kimi. VB=189 to KR=186. Mercedes at least owe Valtteri the support to take third overall in the championship.

I would think Mercedes have 2 priorities
- Winning the WDC and then the Constructors Championship.

No disrespect to Kimi or Bottas - but whether your 3rd or 4th in the WDC it doesn't really make a great deal of difference.

I would think Kimi and Valteri would believe it highly disrespectful to them as drivers. And it clearly made a great deal of difference to Valteri that he was not permitted to win the race after qualifying first and leading until told to pull over for his teammate.

Besides, Hamilton seems to think it makes a difference. He is over on Twitter and Instagram stating that he "wants to win the right way" and thanking Bottas heartily, so I believe he knows that taking the win was unsporting.

bourbon19 wrote:

Xink wrote:

Mort Canard wrote:

Ocon wrote:

Fiki wrote:Of course Bottas is professional enough to understand that. Even I understand that line of reasoning. What I don't understand is what I didn't see: the necessity. Desirable it may have been, though the fact that both drivers scored points, with Bottas needing more of them than Hamilton, argues against that. But necessary? As they say in Maxland: make that the cat wise!

I think it was absolutely necessary, as long as the title isn't secured. Hamilton is fighting for a 5th WDC. This is a historical feat almost unrivaled. I think that's more important than Bottas scoring a few more points.

Mercedes needs to start supporting Valtteri. He started the day three points behind Kimi for third and finished three points ahead of Kimi. VB=189 to KR=186. Mercedes at least owe Valtteri the support to take third overall in the championship.

I would think Mercedes have 2 priorities
- Winning the WDC and then the Constructors Championship.

No disrespect to Kimi or Bottas - but whether your 3rd or 4th in the WDC it doesn't really make a great deal of difference.

I would think Kimi and Valteri would believe it highly disrespectful to them as drivers. And it clearly made a great deal of difference to Valteri that he was not permitted to win the race after qualifying first and leading until told to pull over for his teammate.

Besides, Hamilton seems to think it makes a difference. He is over on Twitter and Instagram stating that he "wants to win the right way" and thanking Bottas heartily, so I believe he knows that taking the win was unsporting.

The points you made are zero to do with Bottas being 3rd rather than 4th in the WDC.

On an unrelated note. I’m almost certain Bottas would prefer 4th in the WDC with a win or two rather than 3rd in WDC with zero wins. Mercedes like the clean sweep WDC, WCC and 1-2 in championship looks nice too as an added bonus. But 1-3 or 1-4 is pretty meaningless. Who remembers the years Barrichello was 2nd or 3rd behind Schumacher? I remember the ones he was 2nd but can’t remember the others.

This race clearly showed why you don’t mess around and let your number 2 get involved in a title race.

Ferrari essentially lost the title not applying team orders. In Germany they left Vettel behind Kimi when they were running different strategies, for 10 laps. He lost 8-10 seconds and was vulnerable to lose the race to Hamilton even without rain. I maintain that if Vettel had a 22 second lead and not a 12 second lead with 15 laps to go - he wouldn’t have crashed.

Monza, Vettel gets overtaken because he is trying to overtake his team mate Kimi. Ferrari should have put in place an agreement before the race. They could have ensured they were 1-2 after the first lap. Lap 3, Kimi lets Vettel by who builds a comfortable lead and wins the race.

If Ferrari had used team orders in Germany and Monza, Vettel likely would still be leading the championship.

Likewise, Merecedes messed about with it yesterday and held Hamilton up all through stint one and subsequently got him undercut by his championship rival. Stupidity, Bottas did the perfect job backing Lewis up into Vettel. Bottas should have yielded on lap 3 or at least given Hamilton the first pit stop. Vettel should have finished ahead of Hamilton.

Johnson wrote:This race clearly showed why you don’t mess around and let your number 2 get involved in a title race.

Ferrari essentially lost the title not applying team orders. In Germany they left Vettel behind Kimi when they were running different strategies, for 10 laps. He lost 8-10 seconds and was vulnerable to lose the race to Hamilton even without rain. I maintain that if Vettel had a 22 second lead and not a 12 second lead with 15 laps to go - he wouldn’t have crashed.

Monza, Vettel gets overtaken because he is trying to overtake his team mate Kimi. Ferrari should have put in place an agreement before the race. They could have ensured they were 1-2 after the first lap. Lap 3, Kimi lets Vettel by who builds a comfortable lead and wins the race.

If Ferrari had used team orders in Germany and Monza, Vettel likely would still be leading the championship.

Likewise, Merecedes messed about with it yesterday and held Hamilton up all through stint one and subsequently got him undercut by his championship rival. Bottas should have yielded on lap 3.

I don’t agree with any of this. Germany was a little ynfortunate on a wet track and Vettel had a sizable enough lead that he didn’t really have to worry about Hamilton anyway. Getting past Kimi earlier would have made no difference IMO. And asking Kimi to pull over on the starting line is a bit silly, really. Vettel shouldn’t have been trying to do it all on lap one and should have focused on Hamilton, not Kimi. I don’t see Ferrari did anything wrong here at all

Zoue wrote:

Johnson wrote:This race clearly showed why you don’t mess around and let your number 2 get involved in a title race.

Ferrari essentially lost the title not applying team orders. In Germany they left Vettel behind Kimi when they were running different strategies, for 10 laps. He lost 8-10 seconds and was vulnerable to lose the race to Hamilton even without rain. I maintain that if Vettel had a 22 second lead and not a 12 second lead with 15 laps to go - he wouldn’t have crashed.

Monza, Vettel gets overtaken because he is trying to overtake his team mate Kimi. Ferrari should have put in place an agreement before the race. They could have ensured they were 1-2 after the first lap. Lap 3, Kimi lets Vettel by who builds a comfortable lead and wins the race.

If Ferrari had used team orders in Germany and Monza, Vettel likely would still be leading the championship.

Likewise, Merecedes messed about with it yesterday and held Hamilton up all through stint one and subsequently got him undercut by his championship rival. Bottas should have yielded on lap 3.

I don’t agree with any of this. Germany was a little ynfortunate on a wet track and Vettel had a sizable enough lead that he didn’t really have to worry about Hamilton anyway. Getting past Kimi earlier would have made no difference IMO. And asking Kimi to pull over on the starting line is a bit silly, really. Vettel shouldn’t have been trying to do it all on lap one and should have focused on Hamilton, not Kimi. I don’t see Ferrari did anything wrong here at all

I'd say it's more on Vettel than it is Ferrari but I have to wonder about Monza. If the appropriate conversations had took place I'd have to guess that Vettel would have indeed focused on Hamilton rather than Kimi in the opening phase? To me it was just a bit odd. Obviously it's dangerous to try and organise a swap off the start but a reassurance that preference would be given after the race settles in would have surely settled Vettel?

Invade wrote:

Zoue wrote:

Johnson wrote:This race clearly showed why you don’t mess around and let your number 2 get involved in a title race.

Ferrari essentially lost the title not applying team orders. In Germany they left Vettel behind Kimi when they were running different strategies, for 10 laps. He lost 8-10 seconds and was vulnerable to lose the race to Hamilton even without rain. I maintain that if Vettel had a 22 second lead and not a 12 second lead with 15 laps to go - he wouldn’t have crashed.

Monza, Vettel gets overtaken because he is trying to overtake his team mate Kimi. Ferrari should have put in place an agreement before the race. They could have ensured they were 1-2 after the first lap. Lap 3, Kimi lets Vettel by who builds a comfortable lead and wins the race.

If Ferrari had used team orders in Germany and Monza, Vettel likely would still be leading the championship.

Likewise, Merecedes messed about with it yesterday and held Hamilton up all through stint one and subsequently got him undercut by his championship rival. Bottas should have yielded on lap 3.

I don’t agree with any of this. Germany was a little ynfortunate on a wet track and Vettel had a sizable enough lead that he didn’t really have to worry about Hamilton anyway. Getting past Kimi earlier would have made no difference IMO. And asking Kimi to pull over on the starting line is a bit silly, really. Vettel shouldn’t have been trying to do it all on lap one and should have focused on Hamilton, not Kimi. I don’t see Ferrari did anything wrong here at all

I'd say it's more on Vettel than it is Ferrari but I have to wonder about Monza. If the appropriate conversations had took place I'd have to guess that Vettel would have indeed focused on Hamilton rather than Kimi in the opening phase? To me it was just a bit odd. Obviously it's dangerous to try and organise a swap off the start but a reassurance that preference would be given after the race settles in would have surely settled Vettel?

The main point woth Monza is that Ferrari shouldn't have had Seb giving Kimi the tow in quali.

Invade wrote:

Zoue wrote:

Johnson wrote:This race clearly showed why you don’t mess around and let your number 2 get involved in a title race.

Ferrari essentially lost the title not applying team orders. In Germany they left Vettel behind Kimi when they were running different strategies, for 10 laps. He lost 8-10 seconds and was vulnerable to lose the race to Hamilton even without rain. I maintain that if Vettel had a 22 second lead and not a 12 second lead with 15 laps to go - he wouldn’t have crashed.

Monza, Vettel gets overtaken because he is trying to overtake his team mate Kimi. Ferrari should have put in place an agreement before the race. They could have ensured they were 1-2 after the first lap. Lap 3, Kimi lets Vettel by who builds a comfortable lead and wins the race.

If Ferrari had used team orders in Germany and Monza, Vettel likely would still be leading the championship.

Likewise, Merecedes messed about with it yesterday and held Hamilton up all through stint one and subsequently got him undercut by his championship rival. Bottas should have yielded on lap 3.

I don’t agree with any of this. Germany was a little ynfortunate on a wet track and Vettel had a sizable enough lead that he didn’t really have to worry about Hamilton anyway. Getting past Kimi earlier would have made no difference IMO. And asking Kimi to pull over on the starting line is a bit silly, really. Vettel shouldn’t have been trying to do it all on lap one and should have focused on Hamilton, not Kimi. I don’t see Ferrari did anything wrong here at all

I'd say it's more on Vettel than it is Ferrari but I have to wonder about Monza. If the appropriate conversations had took place I'd have to guess that Vettel would have indeed focused on Hamilton rather than Kimi in the opening phase? To me it was just a bit odd. Obviously it's dangerous to try and organise a swap off the start but a reassurance that preference would be given after the race settles in would have surely settled Vettel?

Even if no such conversation had been had, Vettel should still have prioritized Hamilton. I said at the time that is was rather bizarre that he seemed to completely ignore the fact Hamilton was there. He’s shown himself to be quicker than Kimi so should have been confident enough that he could take him later, possibly with team assistance in the worst case. But I just don’t see how any blame can be pinned on the team here

Zoue wrote:

Invade wrote:

Zoue wrote:

Johnson wrote:This race clearly showed why you don’t mess around and let your number 2 get involved in a title race.

Ferrari essentially lost the title not applying team orders. In Germany they left Vettel behind Kimi when they were running different strategies, for 10 laps. He lost 8-10 seconds and was vulnerable to lose the race to Hamilton even without rain. I maintain that if Vettel had a 22 second lead and not a 12 second lead with 15 laps to go - he wouldn’t have crashed.

Monza, Vettel gets overtaken because he is trying to overtake his team mate Kimi. Ferrari should have put in place an agreement before the race. They could have ensured they were 1-2 after the first lap. Lap 3, Kimi lets Vettel by who builds a comfortable lead and wins the race.

If Ferrari had used team orders in Germany and Monza, Vettel likely would still be leading the championship.

Likewise, Merecedes messed about with it yesterday and held Hamilton up all through stint one and subsequently got him undercut by his championship rival. Bottas should have yielded on lap 3.

I don’t agree with any of this. Germany was a little ynfortunate on a wet track and Vettel had a sizable enough lead that he didn’t really have to worry about Hamilton anyway. Getting past Kimi earlier would have made no difference IMO. And asking Kimi to pull over on the starting line is a bit silly, really. Vettel shouldn’t have been trying to do it all on lap one and should have focused on Hamilton, not Kimi. I don’t see Ferrari did anything wrong here at all

I'd say it's more on Vettel than it is Ferrari but I have to wonder about Monza. If the appropriate conversations had took place I'd have to guess that Vettel would have indeed focused on Hamilton rather than Kimi in the opening phase? To me it was just a bit odd. Obviously it's dangerous to try and organise a swap off the start but a reassurance that preference would be given after the race settles in would have surely settled Vettel?

Even if no such conversation had been had, Vettel should still have prioritized Hamilton. I said at the time that is was rather bizarre that he seemed to completely ignore the fact Hamilton was there. He’s shown himself to be quicker than Kimi so should have been confident enough that he could take him later, possibly with team assistance in the worst case. But I just don’t see how any blame can be pinned on the team here

Yes it should have just been a matter of common sense regardless. He lost track of Hamilton and paid the price unfortunately. It hasn't quite been Vettel's strongest effort this year and it's pretty bad timing because he had/has the car (though I'm now expecting Mercedes to have a clear advantage most of the time for the rest of the season).

BMWSauber84 wrote:

Invade wrote:

Zoue wrote:

Johnson wrote:This race clearly showed why you don’t mess around and let your number 2 get involved in a title race.

Ferrari essentially lost the title not applying team orders. In Germany they left Vettel behind Kimi when they were running different strategies, for 10 laps. He lost 8-10 seconds and was vulnerable to lose the race to Hamilton even without rain. I maintain that if Vettel had a 22 second lead and not a 12 second lead with 15 laps to go - he wouldn’t have crashed.

Monza, Vettel gets overtaken because he is trying to overtake his team mate Kimi. Ferrari should have put in place an agreement before the race. They could have ensured they were 1-2 after the first lap. Lap 3, Kimi lets Vettel by who builds a comfortable lead and wins the race.

If Ferrari had used team orders in Germany and Monza, Vettel likely would still be leading the championship.

Likewise, Merecedes messed about with it yesterday and held Hamilton up all through stint one and subsequently got him undercut by his championship rival. Bottas should have yielded on lap 3.

I don’t agree with any of this. Germany was a little ynfortunate on a wet track and Vettel had a sizable enough lead that he didn’t really have to worry about Hamilton anyway. Getting past Kimi earlier would have made no difference IMO. And asking Kimi to pull over on the starting line is a bit silly, really. Vettel shouldn’t have been trying to do it all on lap one and should have focused on Hamilton, not Kimi. I don’t see Ferrari did anything wrong here at all

I'd say it's more on Vettel than it is Ferrari but I have to wonder about Monza. If the appropriate conversations had took place I'd have to guess that Vettel would have indeed focused on Hamilton rather than Kimi in the opening phase? To me it was just a bit odd. Obviously it's dangerous to try and organise a swap off the start but a reassurance that preference would be given after the race settles in would have surely settled Vettel?

The main point woth Monza is that Ferrari shouldn't have had Seb giving Kimi the tow in quali.

They should have gotten Seb out in time for him to get the tow from Hamilton. That’s where they maybe messed up. It was a perfect storm for Kimi but Seb also didn’t put together a particularly good lap it must be said.

Zoue wrote:

Johnson wrote:This race clearly showed why you don’t mess around and let your number 2 get involved in a title race.

Ferrari essentially lost the title not applying team orders. In Germany they left Vettel behind Kimi when they were running different strategies, for 10 laps. He lost 8-10 seconds and was vulnerable to lose the race to Hamilton even without rain. I maintain that if Vettel had a 22 second lead and not a 12 second lead with 15 laps to go - he wouldn’t have crashed.

Monza, Vettel gets overtaken because he is trying to overtake his team mate Kimi. Ferrari should have put in place an agreement before the race. They could have ensured they were 1-2 after the first lap. Lap 3, Kimi lets Vettel by who builds a comfortable lead and wins the race.

If Ferrari had used team orders in Germany and Monza, Vettel likely would still be leading the championship.

Likewise, Merecedes messed about with it yesterday and held Hamilton up all through stint one and subsequently got him undercut by his championship rival. Bottas should have yielded on lap 3.

I don’t agree with any of this. Germany was a little ynfortunate on a wet track and Vettel had a sizable enough lead that he didn’t really have to worry about Hamilton anyway. Getting past Kimi earlier would have made no difference IMO. And asking Kimi to pull over on the starting line is a bit silly, really. Vettel shouldn’t have been trying to do it all on lap one and should have focused on Hamilton, not Kimi. I don’t see Ferrari did anything wrong here at all

Hamilton was going to catch him...

He had 17 lap fresher tyres, 2 compounds softer.

Hamilton had 15 laps to close 12 seconds. In the previous 8 laps, Hamilton took 11 seconds out of Vettel whilst lapping significantly more traffic than him. When both had clean air, Hamilton was taking 2.0-2.2 seconds out of him each lap. The lap before Vettel crashed, Hamilton posted the same time as Vettel, Vettel had clean air whilst Hamilton lapped 5 cars.

Hamilton had just caught Kimi, 0.6 behind him when Vettel crashed and was lapping 2.5-3 seconds quicker and would have past him in 1 lap. He would have then be waved by Bottas. There was then no lapped cars between Hamilton and Vettel so traffic would have been even.

Like Nico Rosberg said post race, Vettel was pushing on the one corner you don't push on. The only one with a gravel trap and no run off.
If Vettel had a 22 second lead, rather than 12 I am sure he approaches the only risky corner on the track a lot differently and Ferrari give him the message that he can take it a bit easier as win is in the bag. Although, Hamilton still had an outside chance to close 22 seconds still but his tyres might have gone before he caught him.

I did not say Kimi should pull over on start line? I said lap 3. I said they should co-ordinate at the start to ensure they remain 1-2. The ONLY reason Hamilton was able to attempt an overtake on Vettel is because Vettel himself was attempting on Kimi. Vettel was racing Kimi. If Vettel knew Kimi would be letting him by later on, there is no way he is sizing up a risky/silly pass on lap 1.

In Monza Ferrari should have given Vettel the tow in quali, in the race it's all Vettel, why he went looking for a gap which was never there and opened the door for Hamilton I don't know. Vettel would have got Kimi at somepoint through pace or team orders.