2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Forum rules
Please read the forum rules
User avatar
Johnson
Posts: 1469
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:20 am

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Johnson »

F1_Ernie wrote:In Monza Ferrari should have given Vettel the tow in quali, in the race it's all Vettel, why he went looking for a gap which was never there and opened the door for Hamilton I don't know. Vettel would have got Kimi at somepoint through pace or team orders.
That's not ALL Vettel in the race. If Vettel knew he was getting let by later in the race then he does not have to attempt a silly pass on Kimi on lap 1. He sits back and makes sure Hamilton doesn't pass him knowing he isn't racing Kimi. If Ferrari had implemented team orders pre-race in Monza. Vettel wins the race.

F1_Ernie
Posts: 3758
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by F1_Ernie »

Johnson wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:In Monza Ferrari should have given Vettel the tow in quali, in the race it's all Vettel, why he went looking for a gap which was never there and opened the door for Hamilton I don't know. Vettel would have got Kimi at somepoint through pace or team orders.
That's not ALL Vettel in the race. If Vettel knew he was getting let by later in the race then he does not have to attempt a silly pass on Kimi on lap 1. He sits back and makes sure Hamilton doesn't pass him knowing he isn't racing Kimi. If Ferrari had implemented team orders pre-race in Monza. Vettel wins the race.
He still went looking for an overtake which was never on and the rest is history, that's on Vettel for losing points. We don't see Hamilton doing that very often these days, it was a shock seeing him go for the overtake in Monza.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place
2018: 12th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016, 3rd China 2018, 3rd Japan 2018, 2nd Mexico 2018

Zoue
Posts: 25158
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Zoue »

Johnson wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:In Monza Ferrari should have given Vettel the tow in quali, in the race it's all Vettel, why he went looking for a gap which was never there and opened the door for Hamilton I don't know. Vettel would have got Kimi at somepoint through pace or team orders.
That's not ALL Vettel in the race. If Vettel knew he was getting let by later in the race then he does not have to attempt a silly pass on Kimi on lap 1. He sits back and makes sure Hamilton doesn't pass him knowing he isn't racing Kimi. If Ferrari had implemented team orders pre-race in Monza. Vettel wins the race.
You’re making assumptions here. Don’t forget Kimi has been told he was no longer needed for next year and that may have influenced any team order discussions. But the fact is Vettel seemed to forget Hamilton was even there and that’s all on him

User avatar
Johnson
Posts: 1469
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:20 am

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Johnson »

Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:In Monza Ferrari should have given Vettel the tow in quali, in the race it's all Vettel, why he went looking for a gap which was never there and opened the door for Hamilton I don't know. Vettel would have got Kimi at somepoint through pace or team orders.
That's not ALL Vettel in the race. If Vettel knew he was getting let by later in the race then he does not have to attempt a silly pass on Kimi on lap 1. He sits back and makes sure Hamilton doesn't pass him knowing he isn't racing Kimi. If Ferrari had implemented team orders pre-race in Monza. Vettel wins the race.
You’re making assumptions here. Don’t forget Kimi has been told he was no longer needed for next year and that may have influenced any team order discussions. But the fact is Vettel seemed to forget Hamilton was even there and that’s all on him
What assumption am I making?

If Vettel knew he was being let by later in the race, why would he attempt a risky pass on Kimi from 2 car lengths back? Its a no brainer. The fact is, he wasn't going to be let by (evident by his actions and what he said in interviews after the race) he was racing Kimi and that is on Ferrari for not implementing team orders.

Racing strategy 101, do not let your number 2 driver interfere with the number 1 driver in a championship run in. Mercedes and Ferrari don't seen to get this. This never would have happened under somebody like Brawn.

User avatar
Johnson
Posts: 1469
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:20 am

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Johnson »

F1_Ernie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:In Monza Ferrari should have given Vettel the tow in quali, in the race it's all Vettel, why he went looking for a gap which was never there and opened the door for Hamilton I don't know. Vettel would have got Kimi at somepoint through pace or team orders.
That's not ALL Vettel in the race. If Vettel knew he was getting let by later in the race then he does not have to attempt a silly pass on Kimi on lap 1. He sits back and makes sure Hamilton doesn't pass him knowing he isn't racing Kimi. If Ferrari had implemented team orders pre-race in Monza. Vettel wins the race.
He still went looking for an overtake which was never on and the rest is history, that's on Vettel for losing points. We don't see Hamilton doing that very often these days, it was a shock seeing him go for the overtake in Monza.
Yes indeed the failed overtake is on Vettel but the reason he even felt the need to attempt is on Ferrari.
Very basic racing strategy, you don't have your number 2 racing your number 1 who is going for a world championship. Any competent team manager would not allow this, that is even before getting to Vettel giving Kimi a tow in qualifying... madness.

F1_Ernie
Posts: 3758
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by F1_Ernie »

Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:In Monza Ferrari should have given Vettel the tow in quali, in the race it's all Vettel, why he went looking for a gap which was never there and opened the door for Hamilton I don't know. Vettel would have got Kimi at somepoint through pace or team orders.
That's not ALL Vettel in the race. If Vettel knew he was getting let by later in the race then he does not have to attempt a silly pass on Kimi on lap 1. He sits back and makes sure Hamilton doesn't pass him knowing he isn't racing Kimi. If Ferrari had implemented team orders pre-race in Monza. Vettel wins the race.
You’re making assumptions here. Don’t forget Kimi has been told he was no longer needed for next year and that may have influenced any team order discussions. But the fact is Vettel seemed to forget Hamilton was even there and that’s all on him
What assumption am I making?

If Vettel knew he was being let by later in the race, why would he attempt a risky pass on Kimi from 2 car lengths back? Its a no brainer. The fact is, he wasn't going to be let by (evident by his actions and what he said in interviews after the race) he was racing Kimi and that is on Ferrari for not implementing team orders.

Racing strategy 101, do not let your number 2 driver interfere with the number 1 driver in a championship run in. Mercedes and Ferrari don't seen to get this. This never would have happened under somebody like Brawn.
It takes a big person to tell Kimi in the same weekend that Ferrari are not renewing your contract but you can't compete for the race win even though your contract says you can.

I'm sure Ferrari would have worked it someway as Vettel would have been quicker and Hamilton on the back of the Kimi train.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place
2018: 12th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016, 3rd China 2018, 3rd Japan 2018, 2nd Mexico 2018

F1_Ernie
Posts: 3758
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by F1_Ernie »

Johnson wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:In Monza Ferrari should have given Vettel the tow in quali, in the race it's all Vettel, why he went looking for a gap which was never there and opened the door for Hamilton I don't know. Vettel would have got Kimi at somepoint through pace or team orders.
That's not ALL Vettel in the race. If Vettel knew he was getting let by later in the race then he does not have to attempt a silly pass on Kimi on lap 1. He sits back and makes sure Hamilton doesn't pass him knowing he isn't racing Kimi. If Ferrari had implemented team orders pre-race in Monza. Vettel wins the race.
He still went looking for an overtake which was never on and the rest is history, that's on Vettel for losing points. We don't see Hamilton doing that very often these days, it was a shock seeing him go for the overtake in Monza.
Yes indeed the failed overtake is on Vettel but the reason he even felt the need to attempt is on Ferrari.
Very basic racing strategy, you don't have your number 2 racing your number 1 who is going for a world championship. Any competent team manager would not allow this, that is even before getting to Vettel giving Kimi a tow in qualifying... madness.
Oh yeah I agree, what happened in Germany was complete madness.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place
2018: 12th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016, 3rd China 2018, 3rd Japan 2018, 2nd Mexico 2018

User avatar
Johnson
Posts: 1469
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:20 am

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Johnson »

F1_Ernie wrote: It takes a big person to tell Kimi in the same weekend that Ferrari are not renewing your contract but you can't compete for the race win even though your contract says you can.

I'm sure Ferrari would have worked it someway as Vettel would have been quicker and Hamilton on the back of the Kimi train.
Indeed, making the big decisions is all part of winning the championships. Something tells me if Brawn was at Ferrari, Vettel would not have been in that situation and in Germany he would have been waved by immediately.

Zoue
Posts: 25158
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Zoue »

Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:In Monza Ferrari should have given Vettel the tow in quali, in the race it's all Vettel, why he went looking for a gap which was never there and opened the door for Hamilton I don't know. Vettel would have got Kimi at somepoint through pace or team orders.
That's not ALL Vettel in the race. If Vettel knew he was getting let by later in the race then he does not have to attempt a silly pass on Kimi on lap 1. He sits back and makes sure Hamilton doesn't pass him knowing he isn't racing Kimi. If Ferrari had implemented team orders pre-race in Monza. Vettel wins the race.
You’re making assumptions here. Don’t forget Kimi has been told he was no longer needed for next year and that may have influenced any team order discussions. But the fact is Vettel seemed to forget Hamilton was even there and that’s all on him
What assumption am I making?

If Vettel knew he was being let by later in the race, why would he attempt a risky pass on Kimi from 2 car lengths back? Its a no brainer. The fact is, he wasn't going to be let by (evident by his actions and what he said in interviews after the race) he was racing Kimi and that is on Ferrari for not implementing team orders.

Racing strategy 101, do not let your number 2 driver interfere with the number 1 driver in a championship run in. Mercedes and Ferrari don't seen to get this. This never would have happened under somebody like Brawn.
because you have no idea what was said. Maybe Kimi refuses, for example, after being told he was being dumped. Who knows?

It’s all irrelevant because regardless Vettel should have focused on Hamilton and not Kimi.

Zoue
Posts: 25158
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Zoue »

Johnson wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote: It takes a big person to tell Kimi in the same weekend that Ferrari are not renewing your contract but you can't compete for the race win even though your contract says you can.

I'm sure Ferrari would have worked it someway as Vettel would have been quicker and Hamilton on the back of the Kimi train.
Indeed, making the big decisions is all part of winning the championships. Something tells me if Brawn was at Ferrari, Vettel would not have been in that situation and in Germany he would have been waved by immediately.
There was no situation in Germany. Vettel made a small error with big consequences that had nothing to do with team orders.

User avatar
Johnson
Posts: 1469
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:20 am

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Johnson »

Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:In Monza Ferrari should have given Vettel the tow in quali, in the race it's all Vettel, why he went looking for a gap which was never there and opened the door for Hamilton I don't know. Vettel would have got Kimi at somepoint through pace or team orders.
That's not ALL Vettel in the race. If Vettel knew he was getting let by later in the race then he does not have to attempt a silly pass on Kimi on lap 1. He sits back and makes sure Hamilton doesn't pass him knowing he isn't racing Kimi. If Ferrari had implemented team orders pre-race in Monza. Vettel wins the race.
You’re making assumptions here. Don’t forget Kimi has been told he was no longer needed for next year and that may have influenced any team order discussions. But the fact is Vettel seemed to forget Hamilton was even there and that’s all on him
What assumption am I making?

If Vettel knew he was being let by later in the race, why would he attempt a risky pass on Kimi from 2 car lengths back? Its a no brainer. The fact is, he wasn't going to be let by (evident by his actions and what he said in interviews after the race) he was racing Kimi and that is on Ferrari for not implementing team orders.

Racing strategy 101, do not let your number 2 driver interfere with the number 1 driver in a championship run in. Mercedes and Ferrari don't seen to get this. This never would have happened under somebody like Brawn.
because you have no idea what was said. Maybe Kimi refuses, for example, after being told he was being dumped. Who knows?

It’s all irrelevant because regardless Vettel should have focused on Hamilton and not Kimi.
Its not irrelevant at all. I am literally discussing the lack of team orders by Ferrari is ruining there championship, so its the sole topic.

If Kimi is playing hard ball, then at very least - don't have your world championship chasing driver tow him around in qualifying to get him pole. It appears that if Kimi has pole, he is allowed to fight for the win? What a great idea to tow him then in a race Vettel must win.

User avatar
Johnson
Posts: 1469
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:20 am

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Johnson »

Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote: It takes a big person to tell Kimi in the same weekend that Ferrari are not renewing your contract but you can't compete for the race win even though your contract says you can.

I'm sure Ferrari would have worked it someway as Vettel would have been quicker and Hamilton on the back of the Kimi train.
Indeed, making the big decisions is all part of winning the championships. Something tells me if Brawn was at Ferrari, Vettel would not have been in that situation and in Germany he would have been waved by immediately.
There was no situation in Germany. Vettel made a small error with big consequences that had nothing to do with team orders.
It did, because the lack of team orders meant his win was under threat and put Hamilton into range to catch him so he had to push. It was glaringly obvious that Hamilton would have a huge tyre advantage at the end of the race, there was no logic to keeping Vettel behind Kimi.

If Vettel didn't crash out, Hamilton would have caught him and passed him and won and it would have been down to the time Vettel lost behind Kimi.
Last edited by Johnson on Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

Zoue
Posts: 25158
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Zoue »

Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
That's not ALL Vettel in the race. If Vettel knew he was getting let by later in the race then he does not have to attempt a silly pass on Kimi on lap 1. He sits back and makes sure Hamilton doesn't pass him knowing he isn't racing Kimi. If Ferrari had implemented team orders pre-race in Monza. Vettel wins the race.
You’re making assumptions here. Don’t forget Kimi has been told he was no longer needed for next year and that may have influenced any team order discussions. But the fact is Vettel seemed to forget Hamilton was even there and that’s all on him
What assumption am I making?

If Vettel knew he was being let by later in the race, why would he attempt a risky pass on Kimi from 2 car lengths back? Its a no brainer. The fact is, he wasn't going to be let by (evident by his actions and what he said in interviews after the race) he was racing Kimi and that is on Ferrari for not implementing team orders.

Racing strategy 101, do not let your number 2 driver interfere with the number 1 driver in a championship run in. Mercedes and Ferrari don't seen to get this. This never would have happened under somebody like Brawn.
because you have no idea what was said. Maybe Kimi refuses, for example, after being told he was being dumped. Who knows?

It’s all irrelevant because regardless Vettel should have focused on Hamilton and not Kimi.
Its not irrelevant at all. I am literally discussing the lack of team orders by Ferrari is ruining there championship, so its the sole topic.

If Kimi is playing hard ball, then at very least - don't have your world championship chasing driver tow him around in qualifying to get him pole. It appears that if Kimi has pole, he is allowed to fight for the win? What a great idea to tow him then in a race Vettel must win.
It’s irrelevant because team orders weren’t responsible for Vettel’s mistake.

Vettel had a poor lap regardless of the tow. They could have managed the distance to Hamilton better maybe, but otherwise they wanted a front row lockout and presumably felt this was the best way to get it. I think it’s tenuous to blame them for driver performance, though

Zoue
Posts: 25158
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Zoue »

Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote: It takes a big person to tell Kimi in the same weekend that Ferrari are not renewing your contract but you can't compete for the race win even though your contract says you can.

I'm sure Ferrari would have worked it someway as Vettel would have been quicker and Hamilton on the back of the Kimi train.
Indeed, making the big decisions is all part of winning the championships. Something tells me if Brawn was at Ferrari, Vettel would not have been in that situation and in Germany he would have been waved by immediately.
There was no situation in Germany. Vettel made a small error with big consequences that had nothing to do with team orders.
It did, because the lack of team orders meant his win was under threat and put Hamilton into range to catch him so he had to push.

If Vettel didn't crash out, Hamilton would have caught him and passed him and won and it would have been down to the time Vettel lost behind Kimi.
His win was never under threat

User avatar
Johnson
Posts: 1469
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:20 am

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Johnson »

Zoue wrote: It’s irrelevant because team orders weren’t responsible for Vettel’s mistake.

Vettel had a poor lap regardless of the tow. They could have managed the distance to Hamilton better maybe, but otherwise they wanted a front row lockout and presumably felt this was the best way to get it. I think it’s tenuous to blame them for driver performance, though
Nonsense. Vettel does not attempt that pass on Kimi if he knows he isn't racing him. You don't attempt a silly, desperate, risky pass on somebody from 2 car lengths back if you know he won't be allowed to beat you. You sit back until he waves you by.

User avatar
Johnson
Posts: 1469
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:20 am

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Johnson »

Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote: It takes a big person to tell Kimi in the same weekend that Ferrari are not renewing your contract but you can't compete for the race win even though your contract says you can.

I'm sure Ferrari would have worked it someway as Vettel would have been quicker and Hamilton on the back of the Kimi train.
Indeed, making the big decisions is all part of winning the championships. Something tells me if Brawn was at Ferrari, Vettel would not have been in that situation and in Germany he would have been waved by immediately.
There was no situation in Germany. Vettel made a small error with big consequences that had nothing to do with team orders.
It did, because the lack of team orders meant his win was under threat and put Hamilton into range to catch him so he had to push.

If Vettel didn't crash out, Hamilton would have caught him and passed him and won and it would have been down to the time Vettel lost behind Kimi.
His win was never under threat
You clearly can't read a race and have no idea what you are talking about. So best to stop discussing that one. The Mercedes post race analysis has Hamilton winning the race without Vettel crashing, but you know better right?

Zoue
Posts: 25158
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Zoue »

Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Indeed, making the big decisions is all part of winning the championships. Something tells me if Brawn was at Ferrari, Vettel would not have been in that situation and in Germany he would have been waved by immediately.
There was no situation in Germany. Vettel made a small error with big consequences that had nothing to do with team orders.
It did, because the lack of team orders meant his win was under threat and put Hamilton into range to catch him so he had to push.

If Vettel didn't crash out, Hamilton would have caught him and passed him and won and it would have been down to the time Vettel lost behind Kimi.
His win was never under threat
You clearly can't read a race and have no idea what you are talking about. So best to stop discussing that one. The Mercedes post race analysis has Hamilton winning the race without Vettel crashing, but you know better right?
No need to get personal just because I don’t agree with you. I’m comfortable in my ability to read a race and I don’t see that Vettel had much to worry about. I seem to recall a number of people who felt that he shouldn’t have been pushing at all because he had it all in hand, but now all of a sudden his win was under threat? Methinks you’re conveniently adapting the narrative to fit your pet theory
Last edited by Zoue on Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

Zoue
Posts: 25158
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Zoue »

Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote: It’s irrelevant because team orders weren’t responsible for Vettel’s mistake.

Vettel had a poor lap regardless of the tow. They could have managed the distance to Hamilton better maybe, but otherwise they wanted a front row lockout and presumably felt this was the best way to get it. I think it’s tenuous to blame them for driver performance, though
Nonsense. Vettel does not attempt that pass on Kimi if he knows he isn't racing him. You don't attempt a silly, desperate, risky pass on somebody from 2 car lengths back if you know he won't be allowed to beat you. You sit back until he waves you by.
And whatever pass you attempt you don’t completely forget about the real threat in your title rival.

angrypirate
Posts: 704
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:24 am

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by angrypirate »

Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote: It takes a big person to tell Kimi in the same weekend that Ferrari are not renewing your contract but you can't compete for the race win even though your contract says you can.

I'm sure Ferrari would have worked it someway as Vettel would have been quicker and Hamilton on the back of the Kimi train.
Indeed, making the big decisions is all part of winning the championships. Something tells me if Brawn was at Ferrari, Vettel would not have been in that situation and in Germany he would have been waved by immediately.
There was no situation in Germany. Vettel made a small error with big consequences that had nothing to do with team orders.
It did, because the lack of team orders meant his win was under threat and put Hamilton into range to catch him so he had to push.

If Vettel didn't crash out, Hamilton would have caught him and passed him and won and it would have been down to the time Vettel lost behind Kimi.
His win was never under threat
So he crashed when he wasnt under pressure?

User avatar
Johnson
Posts: 1469
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:20 am

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Johnson »

Zoue wrote: No need to be a dick about it. I’m comfortable in my ability to read a race and I don’t see that Vettel had much to worry about. I seem to recall a number of people who felt that he shouldn’t have been pushing at all because he had it all in hand, but now all of a sudden his win was under threat? Methinks you’re conveniently adapting the narrative to fit your pet theory
I think its fair to be a dick about it. I gave you a long post of why Hamilton would catch him with detailed numbers you reply with a 1 line, it wasn't under threat. I note a lack of explanation of why Vettel was under no threat from Hamilton despite losing seconds per lap?

Zoue
Posts: 25158
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Zoue »

angrypirate wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Indeed, making the big decisions is all part of winning the championships. Something tells me if Brawn was at Ferrari, Vettel would not have been in that situation and in Germany he would have been waved by immediately.
There was no situation in Germany. Vettel made a small error with big consequences that had nothing to do with team orders.
It did, because the lack of team orders meant his win was under threat and put Hamilton into range to catch him so he had to push.

If Vettel didn't crash out, Hamilton would have caught him and passed him and won and it would have been down to the time Vettel lost behind Kimi.
His win was never under threat
So he crashed when he wasnt under pressure?
I don’t think pressure contributed to the crash, no.

Zoue
Posts: 25158
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Zoue »

Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote: No need to be a dick about it. I’m comfortable in my ability to read a race and I don’t see that Vettel had much to worry about. I seem to recall a number of people who felt that he shouldn’t have been pushing at all because he had it all in hand, but now all of a sudden his win was under threat? Methinks you’re conveniently adapting the narrative to fit your pet theory
I think its fair to be a dick about it. I gave you a long post of why Hamilton would catch him with detailed numbers you reply with a 1 line, it wasn't under threat. I note a lack of explanation of why Vettel was under no threat from Hamilton despite losing seconds per lap?
Well it’s simple enough to ask for more info instead of going down the insults route. I’ve just boarded a plane now so will give more detail later as I’m not in a position to look things up in detail, so if you could wind your neck in until later that would be great

User avatar
Johnson
Posts: 1469
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:20 am

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Johnson »

The Vettel error that lost him P2. He had a big lock up into turn 12, leaving a long black mark on the track and completely missing the apex and lost 0.5 allowing Hamilton to be very close through 13 and into the DRS zone.

Another big own goal by Vettel when under pressure. He would have taken -3 from Hamilton but instead this error allowed him to lose +10, a 13 point swing. Another "small" error losing him huge points in the title fight.

Image
F1 coverage

User avatar
Mort Canard
Posts: 1580
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:58 am
Location: Kansas

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Mort Canard »

Johnson wrote:The Vettel error that lost him P2. He had a big lock up into turn 12, leaving a long black mark on the track and completely missing the apex and lost 0.5 allowing Hamilton to be very close through 13 and into the DRS zone.

Another big own goal by Vettel when under pressure. He would have taken -3 from Hamilton but instead this error allowed him to lose +10, a 13 point swing. Another "small" error losing him huge points in the title fight.

Image
F1 coverage
Good set of pics! Was disappointed in the coverage of the lap and a half battle between Sebastian and Lewis. I would have expected in car views showing how there was enough room for Lewis to get by.
Mission WinLater

User avatar
Lojik
Posts: 1441
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:58 pm
Location: London
Contact:

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Lojik »

Johnson wrote:The Vettel error that lost him P2. He had a big lock up into turn 12, leaving a long black mark on the track and completely missing the apex and lost 0.5 allowing Hamilton to be very close through 13 and into the DRS zone.

Another big own goal by Vettel when under pressure. He would have taken -3 from Hamilton but instead this error allowed him to lose +10, a 13 point swing. Another "small" error losing him huge points in the title fight.
Equally as important I think was that it kept him out of DRS for Bottas ahead.

FormulaFun
Posts: 2763
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:21 pm

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by FormulaFun »

Johnson wrote:The Vettel error that lost him P2. He had a big lock up into turn 12, leaving a long black mark on the track and completely missing the apex and lost 0.5 allowing Hamilton to be very close through 13 and into the DRS zone.

Another big own goal by Vettel when under pressure. He would have taken -3 from Hamilton but instead this error allowed him to lose +10, a 13 point swing. Another "small" error losing him huge points in the title fight.

Image
F1 coverage
Pretty damning evidence for Vettel, he is lucky this error has been overshadowed by the team orders

shay550
Posts: 378
Joined: Sat May 01, 2004 4:05 am

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by shay550 »

Was that the first time Hamilton overtook Vettel outside of the first lap this season?

shay550
Posts: 378
Joined: Sat May 01, 2004 4:05 am

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by shay550 »


User avatar
Johnson
Posts: 1469
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:20 am

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Johnson »

FormulaFun wrote:
Pretty damning evidence for Vettel, he is lucky this error has been overshadowed by the team orders
Yes, its funny how the headlines change. All the talking and headlines would have been about Mercedes not using team orders and Hamilton ending up behind Vettel in P3.

Then once Vettel made his error and got by, all the headlines would have been about another Vettel error gifting Hamilton points, cracking under pressure etc etc. But then we had team orders so all the headlines and post race discussion are about that.

j man
Posts: 3529
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:48 pm
Location: UK

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by j man »

shay550 wrote:
I still think that block was out of order. No driver should be forced to slam the brakes on halfway down a straight to avoid a crash.

Fiki
Posts: 8093
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Location: Belgium

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Fiki »

j man wrote:
shay550 wrote:
I still think that block was out of order. No driver should be forced to slam the brakes on halfway down a straight to avoid a crash.
Can you tell who goes to the right first?
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi

User avatar
Mort Canard
Posts: 1580
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:58 am
Location: Kansas

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Mort Canard »

Fiki wrote:
j man wrote:
shay550 wrote:
I still think that block was out of order. No driver should be forced to slam the brakes on halfway down a straight to avoid a crash.
Can you tell who goes to the right first?
The overtaking driver is not limited in the number of moves he can make. The defending driver can only make one move. The question seems to have been whether Seb made one or two moves to his right.
Mission WinLater

TheGiantHogweed
Posts: 3016
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:15 am

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

j man wrote:
shay550 wrote:
I still think that block was out of order. No driver should be forced to slam the brakes on halfway down a straight to avoid a crash.
https://www.racefans.net/2018/09/30/vet ... wards-say/

Well, I think it was fair enough. As Vettel may have looked to move twice, but infact he turned right a little, opened the steering a little and then turned in a bit more. It isn't quite the same as defending on one side then lunging to the other. He was right on the limit but it clearly was allowed given they stopped investigating it.

justmoi
Posts: 390
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:03 am

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by justmoi »

Johnson wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Pretty damning evidence for Vettel, he is lucky this error has been overshadowed by the team orders
Yes, its funny how the headlines change. All the talking and headlines would have been about Mercedes not using team orders and Hamilton ending up behind Vettel in P3.

Then once Vettel made his error and got by, all the headlines would have been about another Vettel error gifting Hamilton points, cracking under pressure etc etc. But then we had team orders so all the headlines and post race discussion are about that.
I'll post what I said in another thread here

justmoi
Posts: 390
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:03 am

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by justmoi »

Some very shabby logic here. Lewis passed Vettel into a corner, after a very minor mistake (which Vettel admitted) gave him an opening to gain using drs. Please see again how Lewis gained on Bottas on the opening lap after a poor start and very nearly passed by Vettel. He caught up and pulled alongside Bottas and would have passed if they didn't run out of straight. The tow was massive. After catching up Vettel, they avoided a clash, he stuck at it and passed under braking, this time Vettel leaving room. I would say good driving.

Russia is notoriously hard to overtake. And this was top car vs top car. It's not like it was a front runner against a midfield team. Lewis was clearly faster than Bottas. He didn't pass. And in fact he did pull to within 5 tenths and 7 tenths of Bottas applying pressure. But there was no mistake to let him in. Nothing in the race showed Mercedes were 'significantly' faster than Ferrari in the race. In the opening stint when they would have obviously wanted to pull clear of Vettel to avoid the undercut considering there were two cars, they didn't manage it. When Lewis had to push setting purple times (before he caught the Williams) throughout Vettel was there, as real evidence on live timing showed. 1.9 seconds, to 2.014 then 2.017 (that's nothing) then back to 1.9.... While Lewis was going purple. See how Vettel closed to Bottas on his flying lap to undercut Lewis, and Bottas was still trying to win the race then. Vettel himself has said he was faster than Bottas, though not enough to get past. For not saying he was faster than Lewis, that's probably down to Lewis just being fast. I suspect Mercedes were faster, but not by much.

But ye, great explanation. The mercedes was simply much faster. That's cleared the mystery for us. The self driving much faster Mercedes just pulled up and passed the Ferrari, no driver input. Just like Monza, in fact the mercedes was 4 secs a lap faster there. Ye

Guys can't even give credit. So called sports fans. It's a shame. Takes the fun out of it sometimes. Some of us also enjoy the racing. Ugh

Fiki
Posts: 8093
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Location: Belgium

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Fiki »

Mort Canard wrote:
Fiki wrote:
j man wrote:
shay550 wrote:
I still think that block was out of order. No driver should be forced to slam the brakes on halfway down a straight to avoid a crash.
Can you tell who goes to the right first?
The overtaking driver is not limited in the number of moves he can make. The defending driver can only make one move. The question seems to have been whether Seb made one or two moves to his right.
The timing of the move is important, as Nico Rosberg showed Hamilton twice in their time at Mercedes together, Mort Canard. You are right in saying that the attacking driver isn't limited in the number of moves he makes, but the point I was making was that - as far as I can see from Hamilton's car - Vettel went to the right first. Which means that Hamilton had the choice to switch to the outside much earlier than he did, and more importantly, that jman is wrong in calling it an out of order block.
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi

Junglist
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:15 am

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Junglist »

Someone on reddit has been making these great videos for the last few races of camera stabilization.

https://streamable.com/6u9o9

That shows the attack Lewis had on Sebastian. From the on boards I thought Vettel made more than 1 move but from this camera angle it looks like it's just one consistent maneuver. I would've been shocked if the investigation lead to anything

User avatar
Black_Flag_11
Posts: 8040
Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 1:05 pm

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

Junglist wrote:Someone on reddit has been making these great videos for the last few races of camera stabilization.

https://streamable.com/6u9o9

That shows the attack Lewis had on Sebastian. From the on boards I thought Vettel made more than 1 move but from this camera angle it looks like it's just one consistent maneuver. I would've been shocked if the investigation lead to anything
Herbert said at the time it looked like one consistent move and it certainly looks that way there. You could argue he increases the turning angle slightly but it would be very harsh to classify that as 2 separate moves.

From Hamilton's on-board it looks worse, I guess because the way Hamilton moves over the the right makes it look like Vettel has straightened up for a bit when actually he was moving to the right the whole time. Interesting how the different camera angles can give very different impressions.

justmoi
Posts: 390
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:03 am

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by justmoi »

It was a move in one direction. But more than one, and the second one was quite too far (and this is the contentious part). There was no room. Part of Lewis was already off track and that would have for sure led to a crash if he didn't back up at the last possible second.

Vettel himself has admitted to not seeing him and not deliberately wanting to be an pickle, or something along those lines. It was dangerous, but in the end no crash so I think we can move on from it

User avatar
Black_Flag_11
Posts: 8040
Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 1:05 pm

Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

justmoi wrote:It was a move in one direction. But more than one, and the second one was quite too far (and this is the contentious part). There was no room. Part of Lewis was already off track and that would have for sure led to a crash if he didn't back up at the last possible second.

Vettel himself has admitted to not seeing him and not deliberately wanting to be an pickle, or something along those lines. It was dangerous, but in the end no crash so I think we can move on from it
Hamilton wasn't alongside so Vettel has no obligation to leave room in that situation, so long as he doesn't make two moves.

Vettel was talking about the next corner when he said he wasn't sure where Hamilton was, which is why he left room on the inside.

Locked