2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

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Johnson
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Johnson »

Ocon wrote:
froze wrote: I don't see how that would benefit the team. Would be better and logical to secure the best possible finish to the other car as well.
Well yeah, but you have to look at the bigger picture here. We have a possible goat driver in the making here. Schumacher had help to achieve his records and I think Lewis should too.
Schumacher gave away more wins that he got through team orders. 2 to Rubens in 2002 and Irvine in Malaysia 1999

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Jezza13
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Jezza13 »

Mort Canard wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Ocon wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Ocon wrote: Of course there is.

Planning for the future and keeping hold of a great young talent.
Well yeah, in the future of course. But I was talking more about next season.
I never mentioned next season and in fact Wolff has said he's comfortable with Ocon sitting out next season.
Wolff will not be content with Ocon sitting out 2020. Unless Valtteri has a glorious year in 2019 I think the #77 will belong to Ocon in 2020.
I'm getting dizzy here.

I never said anything about Ocon sitting out the 2020 season.
Only took 7 yrs, 5 mths & 21 days.

Cooper, Arrows, Brabham, Ligier, Lotus, Tyrrell, Minardi, McLaren, Sauber, Williams,

Remember the garagista's. The heart & soul of F1. They raced to race.

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Bacus
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Bacus »

Johnson wrote:
Ocon wrote:
froze wrote: I don't see how that would benefit the team. Would be better and logical to secure the best possible finish to the other car as well.
Well yeah, but you have to look at the bigger picture here. We have a possible goat driver in the making here. Schumacher had help to achieve his records and I think Lewis should too.
Schumacher gave away more wins that he got through team orders. 2 to Rubens in 2002 and Irvine in Malaysia 1999
Yeah, people are underestimating those gestures.

Ocon
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Ocon »

Bacus wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Ocon wrote:
froze wrote: I don't see how that would benefit the team. Would be better and logical to secure the best possible finish to the other car as well.
Well yeah, but you have to look at the bigger picture here. We have a possible goat driver in the making here. Schumacher had help to achieve his records and I think Lewis should too.
Schumacher gave away more wins that he got through team orders. 2 to Rubens in 2002 and Irvine in Malaysia 1999
Yeah, people are underestimating those gestures.
And Lewis might do the same when the title is secured.

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Mort Canard
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Mort Canard »

Johnson wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
BlackMan wrote:
kleefton wrote:Had Bottas maintained a bigger gap to Hamilton, there likely would not have been team orders though. Vettel was getting close, and Hamilton's tires started developing blisters. That triggered the team order. I still feel bad for him, but with the championship not yet decided and at a critical juncture, he should have expected it. He was slow in the first stint and Lewis was all over his gearbox. He was better on the second stint, but how much was that was Lewis just controlling the gap at the front?
Anyway, it will be interesting to see if Lewis gives him a win back later this year when the championship is already decided. I personally doubt it.

Verstappen just blew his way through the field and left his teammate, who started ahead of him, for dead on the soft tires, but then on the US he was surprisingly static. Such a weird strategy by Redbull though, to pit him with 10 laps to go and then put him on the US instead of the HS. Made little sense, unless they didn't have fresh HS left.

Another great race by Leclerc. The more I watch this kid, the more I think next year is going to be explosive at Ferrari, and Vettel is going to have to be on his A game to fend him off imo, and Hamilton may have a bigger problem to solve again next year, assuming the cars are as close as they are this year.
Hamilton goes into holiday mode once the title is wrapped up anyway so as long as Bottas gets the better of him in qualy or at a race start that should pretty much seal the deal for a potential race win.
Yeah. In 2015 Lewis clinched and then Nico won the last three races with Lewis cruising home second.
Rosberg was Hamilton’s match for the last 10 races in 2015. Hamilton just managed to muscle by a turn 1 quite a few times. Nico has 7 straight poles. The only difference was Nico didn’t lose the lead at the start in the last 3
The six previous races were ALL won by Lewis except Singapore where he retired with a power unit malfunction.
Mission WinLater

gregs51
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by gregs51 »

Spot on from Mercedes. Doesn’t feel great but absolutely brutal and necessary. This sport is a funny game and a Dnf down the line could turn championship on its head. Once it’s sealed for Hamilton Bottas will be given his win back rest assured.

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Johnson
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Johnson »

Mort Canard wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
BlackMan wrote:
kleefton wrote:Had Bottas maintained a bigger gap to Hamilton, there likely would not have been team orders though. Vettel was getting close, and Hamilton's tires started developing blisters. That triggered the team order. I still feel bad for him, but with the championship not yet decided and at a critical juncture, he should have expected it. He was slow in the first stint and Lewis was all over his gearbox. He was better on the second stint, but how much was that was Lewis just controlling the gap at the front?
Anyway, it will be interesting to see if Lewis gives him a win back later this year when the championship is already decided. I personally doubt it.

Verstappen just blew his way through the field and left his teammate, who started ahead of him, for dead on the soft tires, but then on the US he was surprisingly static. Such a weird strategy by Redbull though, to pit him with 10 laps to go and then put him on the US instead of the HS. Made little sense, unless they didn't have fresh HS left.

Another great race by Leclerc. The more I watch this kid, the more I think next year is going to be explosive at Ferrari, and Vettel is going to have to be on his A game to fend him off imo, and Hamilton may have a bigger problem to solve again next year, assuming the cars are as close as they are this year.
Hamilton goes into holiday mode once the title is wrapped up anyway so as long as Bottas gets the better of him in qualy or at a race start that should pretty much seal the deal for a potential race win.
Yeah. In 2015 Lewis clinched and then Nico won the last three races with Lewis cruising home second.
Rosberg was Hamilton’s match for the last 10 races in 2015. Hamilton just managed to muscle by a turn 1 quite a few times. Nico has 7 straight poles. The only difference was Nico didn’t lose the lead at the start in the last 3
The six previous races were ALL won by Lewis except Singapore where he retired with a power unit malfunction.
Those 6 wins-
Monza- Nico on an old engine
Japan- Nico on pole but Hamilton pushes him off the road at turn 1
USA- Nico dominated Hamilton before a SC lost him all his lead. Then he ran wide a Lewis overtook him.
Russia- Nico pole, dominating and going to win before throttle failure.

Rosberg best period against Hamilton was the 2nd half of 2015
Last edited by Johnson on Sun Sep 30, 2018 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lt. Drebin
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Lt. Drebin »

FormulaFun wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:The solution to this garbage behavior is to split teams in two, each driver has a team with him, drives for himself and that's it. I can not imagine paying 100-200 Eur/USD to watch this farce before my eyes and I never will.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Lewis, is that you? :uhoh:
Just find it amusing how outraged you are by team orders, when did you start watching because I can't imagine you would have survived the Schumacher era
I am actively watching F1 since 1982. I have seen Imola 1982, which should have stayed internal affair that unfortunately Pironi broke, and everybody knew it. I have seen France 1982 where Aroux went on to win, not handing the Prost the first place. There was internal talk, he disobeyed, and I am fine with that. I watched all these seasons and also Schumacher era. They were all previously arranged, some agreed, some broken. But...

What we have seen today is public humiliation of Valteri Bottas. First he was told to give Hamilton the first place because Hamilton has some issue, can recall what, so that he would not be threatened by Vettel. At the end Bottas asks the team, "So how are WE going to do it?", and he get's the worst public humiliation he could ever imagine. There is no "WE". There is only "him", you are not important. Bottas was so much out of sight that they did not even informed him that they are to hold the position. Hamilton's previous "problems"? Who cares, shut up, don't dare to say anything publicly. That's public humiliation. Yes, it was before in F1, Germany 2010, and perhaps some other, but this one goes one level higher, as it was done by cheating Bottas into thinking that he would just need to cover Hamilton because of his "problems". But it was a way to cheat him out of first place. And he was cheated by his own team.
The end is near

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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by BMWSauber84 »

Lt. Drebin wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:The solution to this garbage behavior is to split teams in two, each driver has a team with him, drives for himself and that's it. I can not imagine paying 100-200 Eur/USD to watch this farce before my eyes and I never will.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Lewis, is that you? :uhoh:
Just find it amusing how outraged you are by team orders, when did you start watching because I can't imagine you would have survived the Schumacher era
I am actively watching F1 since 1982. I have seen Imola 1982, which should have stayed internal affair that unfortunately Pironi broke, and everybody knew it. I have seen France 1982 where Aroux went on to win, not handing the Prost the first place. There was internal talk, he disobeyed, and I am fine with that. I watched all these seasons and also Schumacher era. They were all previously arranged, some agreed, some broken. But...

What we have seen today is public humiliation of Valteri Bottas. First he was told to give Hamilton the first place because Hamilton has some issue, can recall what, so that he would not be threatened by Vettel. At the end Bottas asks the team, "So how are WE going to do it?", and he get's the worst public humiliation he could ever imagine. There is no "WE". There is only "him", you are not important. Bottas was so much out of sight that they did not even informed him that they are to hold the position. Hamilton's previous "problems"? Who cares, shut up, don't dare to say anything publicly. That's public humiliation. Yes, it was before in F1, Germany 2010, and perhaps some other, but this one goes one level higher, as it was done by cheating Bottas into thinking that he would just need to cover Hamilton because of his "problems". But it was a way to cheat him out of first place. And he was cheated by his own team.

Wow that's a great fictional transcript. It's no more or less humiliating or "cheating" than any other team orders in history. Bottas knew from yesterday that this was a possibility. Yes it's harsh on him, but no more so than on Massa in 2010, Ralf in 1998 or Rosberg in 2013 .

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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by BMWSauber84 »

Johnson wrote:
Ocon wrote:
froze wrote: I don't see how that would benefit the team. Would be better and logical to secure the best possible finish to the other car as well.
Well yeah, but you have to look at the bigger picture here. We have a possible goat driver in the making here. Schumacher had help to achieve his records and I think Lewis should too.
Schumacher gave away more wins that he got through team orders. 2 to Rubens in 2002 and Irvine in Malaysia 1999
Slightly misleading that. The US grand prix in 2002 was not so much Schumacher trying to give Rubens the win, they were trying to contrive gimmicked a dead heat finish.

There were plenty of times Schumis teammates allowed him by when it wasn't for the win such as Austria 2001. Team orders are team orders no matter what the positions.

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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Zoue »

kleefton wrote:Had Bottas maintained a bigger gap to Hamilton, there likely would not have been team orders though. Vettel was getting close, and Hamilton's tires started developing blisters. That triggered the team order. I still feel bad for him, but with the championship not yet decided and at a critical juncture, he should have expected it. He was slow in the first stint and Lewis was all over his gearbox. He was better on the second stint, but how much was that was Lewis just controlling the gap at the front?
Anyway, it will be interesting to see if Lewis gives him a win back later this year when the championship is already decided. I personally doubt it.

Verstappen just blew his way through the field and left his teammate, who started ahead of him, for dead on the soft tires, but then on the US he was surprisingly static. Such a weird strategy by Redbull though, to pit him with 10 laps to go and then put him on the US instead of the HS. Made little sense, unless they didn't have fresh HS left.

Another great race by Leclerc. The more I watch this kid, the more I think next year is going to be explosive at Ferrari, and Vettel is going to have to be on his A game to fend him off imo, and Hamilton may have a bigger problem to solve again next year, assuming the cars are as close as they are this year.
I don't think the Mercs were going anywhere near full pace and they were just managing things. Near the end of the race Hamilton didn't seem all that bothered about blisters when he suddenly starting pumping in fastest laps, despite zero pressure from behind. The Mercs were pacing themselves and IMO the order to switch had less to do with feeling threatened and more with getting maximum points for Hamilton

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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Lojik »

Zoue wrote: I don't think the Mercs were going anywhere near full pace and they were just managing things. Near the end of the race Hamilton didn't seem all that bothered about blisters when he suddenly starting pumping in fastest laps, despite zero pressure from behind. The Mercs were pacing themselves and IMO the order to switch had less to do with feeling threatened and more with getting maximum points for Hamilton
Hamilton said in an interview that he asked on the radio for Bottas to speed up before exchanging the position. That said, I completely agree that the order was given to maximise Hamilton points, and rightly so.

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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Mr-E »

I buy team orders as they are legal and have been used by every team, every season. What annoys me is when the winning (not only Ham) driver acts as he is sad because of the outcome. Give me a break. No winning F1 driver will be sad winning over the #2. It looks so fake.
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Mr-E wrote:I buy team orders as they are legal and have been used by every team, every season. What annoys me is when the winning (not only Ham) driver acts as he is sad because of the outcome. Give me a break. No winning F1 driver will be sad winning over the #2. It looks so fake.
Not sure I agree. Hamilton knows that Bottas did a better job in qualifying and also stayed ahead in the race. It will have stayed that way too without team orders. Even against Bottas, I don't think he will like the feeling of a win he knows he won't have got without the generally weaker team mate giving up his own win. He knows that this isn't one of his strongest track and generally Bottas has been strong here. Hamilton did look quicker in qualifying, but I'm not sure about the race. When he was behind Bottas and Bottas was behind him, they both maintained a gap that didn't change much at all. And Bottas set the fastest lap. Hamilton showed this expression in Azerbaijan. He knew Bottas had basically done a better job than him and felt a little uncomfortable with the win given Bottas would have got it. Similar here. I don't think he's looking like this just to support Bottas. He himself said he wanted Bottas to go faster rather than let him by. It was the teams decision and he clearly didn't actually want to win this way. I think he will only be happy that this happened if he sufferers bad luck later on in the season

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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Jezza13 »

Mr-E wrote:I buy team orders as they are legal and have been used by every team, every season. What annoys me is when the winning (not only Ham) driver acts as he is sad because of the outcome. Give me a break. No winning F1 driver will be sad winning over the #2. It looks so fake.
I actually thought Hamilton came across as quite genuine & sympathetic towards Bottas.

I've gone off Hamilton a bit this year as he's been coming across all D&M with his "Love conquers all" type comments but he won me back a bit today.
Only took 7 yrs, 5 mths & 21 days.

Cooper, Arrows, Brabham, Ligier, Lotus, Tyrrell, Minardi, McLaren, Sauber, Williams,

Remember the garagista's. The heart & soul of F1. They raced to race.

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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by UnlikeUday »

Pierre Gasly has said that carbon fiber debris from Ricciardo's car hit his visor on the 1st lap. Luckily, the debris hit him at turn 2 & not on the main straight where the speeds were 300 km/h. Halo can prevent larger debris but smaller debris can miss the halo completely & hit the helmet / visor. Freak incidents such as this will always pose a risk & that's a part of the sport.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/gasl ... e/3186536/
Feel The Fourth

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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Ocon »

Missed the start of the race, and just seen the Vettel-Hamilton incident. That was stupidity on a level that only Verstappen can match, how Vettel was defending. Really dangerous driving, this guy is truly desperate.

And then people say Lewis is scared of racing him. Who wouldn't be scared?

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ynot22
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by ynot22 »

Bye guys. I’m done with F1. You are a great community and ive enjoyed the forum since the early 2000s but I’m done with F1. Onto Indy and WDC. Maybe I’ll see you all in 2021.
Cheers.

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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Jezza13 »

ynot22 wrote:Bye guys. I’m done with F1. You are a great community and ive enjoyed the forum since the early 2000s but I’m done with F1. Onto Indy and WDC. Maybe I’ll see you all in 2021.
Cheers.
A tad extreme isn't it?
Only took 7 yrs, 5 mths & 21 days.

Cooper, Arrows, Brabham, Ligier, Lotus, Tyrrell, Minardi, McLaren, Sauber, Williams,

Remember the garagista's. The heart & soul of F1. They raced to race.

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)

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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Ocon »

ynot22 wrote:Bye guys. I’m done with F1. You are a great community and ive enjoyed the forum since the early 2000s but I’m done with F1. Onto Indy and WDC. Maybe I’ll see you all in 2021.
Cheers.
Bye. But what is the reason?

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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

The extreme reactions and twisting of the story by some in this thread to fit their own personal narrative is certainly entertaining to observe.

I'll start by first saying I think that Mercedes were right to switch the order when they did, but that they should have switched back before crossing the line. Hungary 2017 reflected well on the team when they did it and they were in a weaker position than they are now.

Whether Hamilton genuinely had an issue or not, with Vettel a couple of seconds behind, it makes logical sense to put a car between him and the championship contender so the points difference doesn't shrink in the event of an incident (a Hamilton error / issue with backmarkers) - however, with Hamilton extending his lead in either scenario I think that Bottas will be more of an asset later in the season if more respected by the team than the seven points Hamilton gained today.

Having said that, I don't think it's the crime of the century either. I don't like it and would prefer that it had not, but that's mainly down to the fact i feel Bottas deserved a break, particularly after the incident at Baku.

It's different to both Austria 2002 and Hockenheim 2010.

In Austria Schumacher was walking away with a championship in a dominant car and it was only the 6th race in the season. Here, we are into the last 6 races of the season, and while Hamilton is ahead only two races ago the Ferrari was the form car, in the tail end of the season there is always the potential of grid penalties or engines blowing up.

In Hockenheim 2010, I think that Ferrari did have a case for team orders, however at the time team orders were illegal in the rules. However, most people within the sport felt they were justified given Ferrari were battling a superior Red Bull, and the criticism was more around the obvious lie and coded disguise Ferrari had gone through to implement them. It was due to this incident that team orders were made legal again.

Austria was a case of unjustifiable but legal. Hockenheim was a case of justifiable but illegal. Today's was both justifiable and legal.

I still don't like it though and I would have switched them back, but those acting this this is some new low for the sport are quite frankly being ridiculous.

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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Lojik »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:Entire post......
:thumbup:

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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by sandman1347 »

That was an ugly thing to do and probably not necessary. Even if Hamilton couldn't get by Bottas and finished 2nd, he still would have gained points to his lead over Vettel. I think that was harsh but I've been watching F1 long enough to have seen that happen many times. The fact is that Bottas is not fighting for the championship and the team made a decision to try to maximize the points for the guy who is. It's not always worth it to do this type of thing though. There is more than just maximizing points to consider. Fans do not like this kind of thing.

I do think it was a very successful day for Mercedes though. The outcome couldn't have gone better. The wheel to wheel scrap between Hamilton and Vettel was fun to watch and they seemed to have things under control in terms of pace. That's part of what makes the team order possibly not worth it. Mercedes may have firmly jumped ahead here in terms of performance; in which case the miracle scenario of Vettel winning all of the remaining races becomes as likely as winning the lotto. That's not pretty to watch but it was very understandable from a standpoint of securing the championship. It's amazing that Hamilton and Mercedes have won this many titles before ever resorting to something like this.

For Vettel and Ferrari this race almost completely lets the air out of their title challenge. Down 2 full race wins worth of points with just 5 races to go; things are becoming mathematically very difficult. Mercedes also seems to have stolen the march in terms of performance. They were quicker here all weekend (although both Vettel and Raikkonen seemed to be able to run about the same race pace as the Mercs. I think it will truly take a miracle for Vettel to come back now. He will need help from Mercedes and he will need Hamilton to have at least one DNF.

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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by sandman1347 »

Johnson wrote:
Ocon wrote:
froze wrote: I don't see how that would benefit the team. Would be better and logical to secure the best possible finish to the other car as well.
Well yeah, but you have to look at the bigger picture here. We have a possible goat driver in the making here. Schumacher had help to achieve his records and I think Lewis should too.
Schumacher gave away more wins that he got through team orders. 2 to Rubens in 2002 and Irvine in Malaysia 1999
It's not so much about the rare occurrences where you directly take a win. Michael utilized team orders to a FAR greater extent during his career than Hamilton.

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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by FormulaFun »

Lt. Drebin wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:The solution to this garbage behavior is to split teams in two, each driver has a team with him, drives for himself and that's it. I can not imagine paying 100-200 Eur/USD to watch this farce before my eyes and I never will.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Lewis, is that you? :uhoh:
Just find it amusing how outraged you are by team orders, when did you start watching because I can't imagine you would have survived the Schumacher era
I am actively watching F1 since 1982. I have seen Imola 1982, which should have stayed internal affair that unfortunately Pironi broke, and everybody knew it. I have seen France 1982 where Aroux went on to win, not handing the Prost the first place. There was internal talk, he disobeyed, and I am fine with that. I watched all these seasons and also Schumacher era. They were all previously arranged, some agreed, some broken. But...

What we have seen today is public humiliation of Valteri Bottas. First he was told to give Hamilton the first place because Hamilton has some issue, can recall what, so that he would not be threatened by Vettel. At the end Bottas asks the team, "So how are WE going to do it?", and he get's the worst public humiliation he could ever imagine. There is no "WE". There is only "him", you are not important. Bottas was so much out of sight that they did not even informed him that they are to hold the position. Hamilton's previous "problems"? Who cares, shut up, don't dare to say anything publicly. That's public humiliation. Yes, it was before in F1, Germany 2010, and perhaps some other, but this one goes one level higher, as it was done by cheating Bottas into thinking that he would just need to cover Hamilton because of his "problems". But it was a way to cheat him out of first place. And he was cheated by his own team.
This is the most imagination packed recalling of F1 I have ever seen regarding team orders. You are so bitter that you have invented a history of your own.

I don't even know where to start to be honest, there's a lot that could be disputed in there i would definitely say Austria 2002 where Ferrari threatened to end barrichellos career if he didn't move for schumacher, in a season where he had no competition, and a race where 3rd place was 15+ seconds behind leaving a grown man weeping on a podium.

2010 hockenheim where Ferrari made massa let Alonso through and then forced him to blatently lie again and again to everyone that there was no team orders he was just too slow because they were illegal

And one team order you disregard so much you don't even mention it... What about making your driver crash into a wall to cause a safety car? That doesn't bother you? Well at least they didn't cheat him

What about taking mark Webber's front wing off his car walking to the other side of the garage and then putting it on vettels after he broke his version of the upgraded wing? Didn't cheat him then?
Last edited by FormulaFun on Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.

JN23
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by JN23 »

sandman1347 wrote:That was an ugly thing to do and probably not necessary. Even if Hamilton couldn't get by Bottas and finished 2nd, he still would have gained points to his lead over Vettel. I think that was harsh but I've been watching F1 long enough to have seen that happen many times. The fact is that Bottas is not fighting for the championship and the team made a decision to try to maximize the points for the guy who is. It's not always worth it to do this type of thing though. There is more than just maximizing points to consider. Fans do not like this kind of thing.

I do think it was a very successful day for Mercedes though. The outcome couldn't have gone better. The wheel to wheel scrap between Hamilton and Vettel was fun to watch and they seemed to have things under control in terms of pace. That's part of what makes the team order possibly not worth it. Mercedes may have firmly jumped ahead here in terms of performance; in which case the miracle scenario of Vettel winning all of the remaining races becomes as likely as winning the lotto. That's not pretty to watch but it was very understandable from a standpoint of securing the championship. It's amazing that Hamilton and Mercedes have won this many titles before ever resorting to something like this.

For Vettel and Ferrari this race almost completely lets the air out of their title challenge. Down 2 full race wins worth of points with just 5 races to go; things are becoming mathematically very difficult. Mercedes also seems to have stolen the march in terms of performance. They were quicker here all weekend (although both Vettel and Raikkonen seemed to be able to run about the same race pace as the Mercs. I think it will truly take a miracle for Vettel to come back now. He will need help from Mercedes and he will need Hamilton to have at least one DNF.
If Vettel wins every race then Hamilton can go 2-3-3-3-3. If Vettel wins every race bar one then it's P3 all the way home. The fat lady is probably starting to clear her throat.

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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by FormulaFun »

Alienturnedhuman wrote: everything
Well said that man

JN23
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by JN23 »

Today was the first time this season that Alonso finished the race but didn't finish in the points.

Fiki
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Fiki »

Bacus wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Ocon wrote:
froze wrote: I don't see how that would benefit the team. Would be better and logical to secure the best possible finish to the other car as well.
Well yeah, but you have to look at the bigger picture here. We have a possible goat driver in the making here. Schumacher had help to achieve his records and I think Lewis should too.
Schumacher gave away more wins that he got through team orders. 2 to Rubens in 2002 and Irvine in Malaysia 1999
Yeah, people are underestimating those gestures.
I had to toss a coin to decide whether to laugh at that post, or to weep bitter tears.

Edit: Has anybody seen my coin? :-((
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

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bourbon19
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by bourbon19 »

Well Bottas wasn't thrilled with today's work and let it be known on Twitter. (Click on Picture- he got Putin in the shot too - also frowning)


https://twitter.com/ValtteriBottas/stat ... 1495922688

BMWSauber84
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by BMWSauber84 »

ynot22 wrote:Bye guys. I’m done with F1. You are a great community and ive enjoyed the forum since the early 2000s but I’m done with F1. Onto Indy and WDC. Maybe I’ll see you all in 2021.
Cheers.
See you next week.

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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Ocon »

I wonder if people are really concerned about Bottas feelings here, or if it is out of frustration because Hamilton is running away with the championship.

Hamilton has something to lose by not getting these points, while it won't matter for Bottas if he gets a few points less. I would understand the reaction if Lewis had already secured the title but at this point it's just unreasonable to to not help the guy who is in a ongoing WDC fight. People are assuming that he is destroyed by this, without having any idea how he feels about it.
Last edited by Ocon on Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Ocon »

bourbon19 wrote:Well Bottas wasn't thrilled with today's work and let it be known on Twitter. (Click on Picture- he got Putin in the shot too - also frowning)


https://twitter.com/ValtteriBottas/stat ... 1495922688
Why, what did he say? I don't see any quotes there.

Ocon
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Ocon »

Bacus wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Bacus wrote:Aren't people used to team orders by now? It always happened at the top teams and probably will continue happening.
There are 5 races to go and they(Merc) need to make sure their driver will be WDC.
I'm sorry about Bottas but what does he expect? He's in a top team next to a 4th time world champion, and he's not considered a top tier driver. He's lucky he got a seat at this team (most would agree).
Of course you'd expect these kind of situations. They aren't pretty but it's part of F1.
The problem isn't getting used to team orders. It is the use of unnecessary team orders. And the necessity is something that can form a point for discussion. But with the points lead he has now, Hamilton should be larger than his team. But, unfortunately for his fans, he isn't.
It was not an 'unnecessary team order'. With 40 points lead and 5 races to go things still can happen. Hamilton lost the WDC in 2007 with an advantage like that, or greater with 2-3 races to go(his fault or something else doesn't matter - the idea is that nothing is certain).
Who said he's larger than his team? I'm sure he didn't ask about that switch. Thee are drivers in this field who asked on the radio for his team-mate to move aside (on top of my mind is Alonso and Vettel).
Team's first priority is the drivers WDC and they do anything they can to assure that until mathematically its impossible, simple.
Exactly. Bottas is surely professional enough to understand this.

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Mort Canard
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Mort Canard »

Johnson wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Yeah. In 2015 Lewis clinched and then Nico won the last three races with Lewis cruising home second.
Rosberg was Hamilton’s match for the last 10 races in 2015. Hamilton just managed to muscle by a turn 1 quite a few times. Nico has 7 straight poles. The only difference was Nico didn’t lose the lead at the start in the last 3
The six previous races were ALL won by Lewis except Singapore where he retired with a power unit malfunction.
Those 6 wins-
Monza- Nico on an old engine
Japan- Nico on pole but Hamilton pushes him off the road at turn 1
USA- Nico dominated Hamilton before a SC lost him all his lead. Then he ran wide a Lewis overtook him.
Russia- Nico pole, dominating and going to win before throttle failure.

Rosberg best period against Hamilton was the 2nd half of 2015
My point was that after fighting hammer and tongs with Nico from the Spa race through the USGP, Lewis cruised to a comfortable second place in Mexico, Brazil, and Abu Dhabi, when he had clinched the championship. Lewis did put an effort to win in the last three races but was content to consolidate his position in second in those races. No over the top effort needed.
Last edited by Mort Canard on Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mission WinLater

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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by j man »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:The extreme reactions and twisting of the story by some in this thread to fit their own personal narrative is certainly entertaining to observe.

I'll start by first saying I think that Mercedes were right to switch the order when they did, but that they should have switched back before crossing the line. Hungary 2017 reflected well on the team when they did it and they were in a weaker position than they are now.

Whether Hamilton genuinely had an issue or not, with Vettel a couple of seconds behind, it makes logical sense to put a car between him and the championship contender so the points difference doesn't shrink in the event of an incident (a Hamilton error / issue with backmarkers) - however, with Hamilton extending his lead in either scenario I think that Bottas will be more of an asset later in the season if more respected by the team than the seven points Hamilton gained today.

Having said that, I don't think it's the crime of the century either. I don't like it and would prefer that it had not, but that's mainly down to the fact i feel Bottas deserved a break, particularly after the incident at Baku.

It's different to both Austria 2002 and Hockenheim 2010.

In Austria Schumacher was walking away with a championship in a dominant car and it was only the 6th race in the season. Here, we are into the last 6 races of the season, and while Hamilton is ahead only two races ago the Ferrari was the form car, in the tail end of the season there is always the potential of grid penalties or engines blowing up.

In Hockenheim 2010, I think that Ferrari did have a case for team orders, however at the time team orders were illegal in the rules. However, most people within the sport felt they were justified given Ferrari were battling a superior Red Bull, and the criticism was more around the obvious lie and coded disguise Ferrari had gone through to implement them. It was due to this incident that team orders were made legal again.

Austria was a case of unjustifiable but legal. Hockenheim was a case of justifiable but illegal. Today's was both justifiable and legal.

I still don't like it though and I would have switched them back, but those acting this this is some new low for the sport are quite frankly being ridiculous.
Well said.

I don't like team orders either but can understand why Mercedes decided to employ them today. A few people are really overreacting here.

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bourbon19
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by bourbon19 »

Ocon wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:Well Bottas wasn't thrilled with today's work and let it be known on Twitter. (Click on Picture- he got Putin in the shot too - also frowning)


https://twitter.com/ValtteriBottas/stat ... 1495922688
Why, what did he say? I don't see any quotes there.
That is because a picture says a thousand words. Or in this case, pictures.

j man wrote: Well said.

I don't like team orders either but can understand why Mercedes decided to employ them today. A few people are really overreacting here.
I don't know what you expect. In 2011, when Mark Webber refused to listen to team orders to ensure Vettel's position, fans rallied behind him, demeaning RBR and praising Mark to the skies - and Vettel wasn't as far ahead as Hamilton is now. Yet somehow you believe the fan base is going to change it's tune just because it is Hamilton or Mercedes?

Team orders have always been disfavored as it isn't racing, is it? You'll note that mostly fans of the advantaged driver "understand" the necessity of the move. But not even fans of the advantaged driver always agree with it. Some people just hate team orders with a passion.
Last edited by bourbon19 on Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by j man »

bourbon19 wrote:Well Bottas wasn't thrilled with today's work and let it be known on Twitter. (Click on Picture- he got Putin in the shot too - also frowning)


https://twitter.com/ValtteriBottas/stat ... 1495922688
If that was his intention then he'd have been better off using a photo that doesn't highlight how close Vettel was ;)

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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by sidders »

F1_Ernie wrote:
Bacus wrote:Aren't people used to team orders by now? It always happened at the top teams and probably will continue happening.
There are 5 races to go and they(Merc) need to make sure their driver will be WDC.
I'm sorry about Bottas but what does he expect? He's in a top team next to a 4th time world champion, and he's not considered a top tier driver. He's lucky he got a seat at this team (most would agree).
Of course you'd expect these kind of situations. They aren't pretty but it's part of F1.
If Bottas had the pace and could deliver over a season he wouldn't need to move over as he would still be in the title race. The moaning is funny to read.
This. It really is that simple

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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Ocon »

bourbon19 wrote:
Ocon wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:Well Bottas wasn't thrilled with today's work and let it be known on Twitter. (Click on Picture- he got Putin in the shot too - also frowning)


https://twitter.com/ValtteriBottas/stat ... 1495922688
Why, what did he say? I don't see any quotes there.
That is because a picture says a thousand words. Or in this case, pictures.
Maybe he is a little unhappy about it, which is understandable. But people are acting like he is completely destroyed over this, which is highly unlikely.

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