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Visually the car looks very similar to what was their last major updates, all the websites report updates on other cars except Mclaren's, Its very strange that they haven't moved any step forward!! Brings me to the question whether Mclaren have actually bought any updates this year post their last major update in Spain, or have they completely abandoned this year's development. 6 Months and they haven't been able to figure out how to correct their car? In the past Mclaren used to turn around their cars updates quite quickly. I know the team has fallen way behind the top three superpowers in F1 today, but have they completely lost everything? Cannot even beat Sauber or Force India on the updates game?

Anyone has any thoughts on this? Been wanting to ask for quite some time on this.

I thought I read Zak Brown said no updates for the car as they began work on the 2019 car, also I have heard that their late switch to Renault power didn't help them prepare for this season. In my opinion they are worse this year than last year with Honda and yet they decided on a silver bullet solution using Renault engines.

They're not bringing any big ones no. Spain was the last big one and it's obviously caused some airflow issues further down the car as they halted upgrades of any nature until Austria and actually took well developed parts from last years car like the leading edge of the floor/bargeboard area totally off the car since Spain and they've only brought some small changes to the floor,front wing and brake ducts since.

Around the summer Alonso said they found the issue but most of the focus (He said 70%) would be on next years car with the new aero rules so there was obviously mo quick fix to the issues.

Basically the car has so many fundamental issues that there is no in-season big fix so instead they're just bringing stuff that can carry over to next year while spending most of the CFD/Wind tunnel time on next years car.

Seems they also made the almost comical error of messing up their gear ratios which they are not allowed to fix which is killing them on long straights but isn't hurting them on tracks like Singapore. I think this is what's cost Tim Goss his job because it's such an irreversible, rookie mistake.

Basically one mess up after the other and I also read they were having to run the suspension too stiff to keep a stable aero platform which with the high rake philosophy is also hurting them on the straights.

It's incredible what happened, they were only 1 tenth quicker around Spa despite having over 50bhp more than last year. That means they haven't just stood still but have got objectively worse since last years car. For context Force India gained 2s in the same year on year comparison.

Mental.

Lotus49 wrote:It's incredible what happened, they were only 1 tenth quicker around Spa despite having over 50bhp more than last year. That means they haven't just stood still but have got objectively worse since last years car. For context Force India gained 2s in the same year on year comparison.

Mental.

Naw, man, this just proves last year's car was terrible as well, don't you know.

Lotus49 wrote:They're not bringing any big ones no. Spain was the last big one and it's obviously caused some airflow issues further down the car as they halted upgrades of any nature until Austria and actually took well developed parts from last years car like the leading edge of the floor/bargeboard area totally off the car since Spain and they've only brought some small changes to the floor,front wing and brake ducts since.

Around the summer Alonso said they found the issue but most of the focus (He said 70%) would be on next years car with the new aero rules so there was obviously mo quick fix to the issues.

Basically the car has so many fundamental issues that there is no in-season big fix so instead they're just bringing stuff that can carry over to next year while spending most of the CFD/Wind tunnel time on next years car.

Seems they also made the almost comical error of messing up their gear ratios which they are not allowed to fix which is killing them on long straights but isn't hurting them on tracks like Singapore. I think this is what's cost Tim Goss his job because it's such an irreversible, rookie mistake.

Basically one mess up after the other and I also read they were having to run the suspension too stiff to keep a stable aero platform which with the high rake philosophy is also hurting them on the straights.

It's incredible what happened, they were only 1 tenth quicker around Spa despite having over 50bhp more than last year. That means they haven't just stood still but have got objectively worse since last years car. For context Force India gained 2s in the same year on year comparison.

Mental.

Good info, thanks. The bit about the gearbox is what I absolutely loathe about modern F1. It’s beyond ridiculous that a team cannot rectify a mistake like that, despite knowing what they need to do to fix it. It’s the same idiotic rules that meant Ferrari could do nothing about their too small turbo in 2014. I can’t umagine who they think this helps and it makes F1 look quite frankly ridiculous

Exediron wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:It's incredible what happened, they were only 1 tenth quicker around Spa despite having over 50bhp more than last year. That means they haven't just stood still but have got objectively worse since last years car. For context Force India gained 2s in the same year on year comparison.

Mental.

Naw, man, this just proves last year's car was terrible as well, don't you know.

I think now the midfield is more competitive than before. Saubers have made huge gains. Haas as well are having their best year in F1 so far. IMHO Mclaren have been struggling for years and comparison to RBR was simply absurd. I think they will do well to be 6th best team next year as well.

Exediron wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:It's incredible what happened, they were only 1 tenth quicker around Spa despite having over 50bhp more than last year. That means they haven't just stood still but have got objectively worse since last years car. For context Force India gained 2s in the same year on year comparison.

Mental.

Naw, man, this just proves last year's car was terrible as well, don't you know.

Why are we still bringing up last year's car though? Last year is done and dusted. Whatever happened happened. Honda sucked, chassis was "the best on the grid". Whatever. It's over. One thing we know for sure is that this year's car is no good. Let's see what they come up with next year. No more Alonso to bail them out though.

There's something so bizarre about this car and last years. I can't think of a worse car (This years) that has had so many pieces copied by the top teams that are already slaughtering them.

Rear wing endplates - Mercedes,Ferrari and Renault
Vortex generators on top of sidepod - Mercedes
Elements from floor/bargeboard - Force India,Mercedes and Renault
Nose pillars - Ferrari and STR

That's off the top of my head but it seems weekly on the f1technical forum there's new parts being spotted that originated at McLaren. All Aero related and yet the team that came up with them can't get the best out of them and even dumped some of the parts like the nose pillars.

No wonder there's so much head scratching going on at McLaren, they must have colossally messed up their suspension and engine integration as there's clearly something in the Aero that other teams like and find beneficial. Alonso did say two regulation changes hurt them, the trick suspension that sank on the straights allowing them to run more wing and the exhaust blowing of the monkey seat where Honda were said to be quite strong but even accounting for that they shouldn't be going backwards and actually regressing in some areas. They removed parts from the tea tray area in Spain when they introduced the new front end and they still haven't replaced them as far as I last checked which was Spa. They're the only team with no elements in this area.

Such a weird situation.

They simply do not have money this year compared to last year and years before. And with the money they do have they are ineffeciecient. It's poor management and business decisions. Sad for the good men and women that work there. I see next year being make or break before they accelerate down the path of Williams.

AravJ wrote:They simply do not have money this year compared to last year and years before. And with the money they do have they are ineffeciecient. It's poor management and business decisions. Sad for the good men and women that work there. I see next year being make or break before they accelerate down the path of Williams.

They still have plenty of money. Latifi's $200m was used to cover any shortfall from Honda, I believe, and they've added four sponsors this year. The problem is that they started with a fundamentally bad chassis, and none of the clever aero ideas on it seem to work. I agree with Lotus49 that I've never seen a team so far down the grid be copied so much, and there's something very strange going on here.

AravJ wrote:They simply do not have money this year compared to last year and years before. And with the money they do have they are ineffeciecient. It's poor management and business decisions. Sad for the good men and women that work there. I see next year being make or break before they accelerate down the path of Williams.

Mclaren budget is still twice more than teams like Saubers, FI, Haas, STR. Not sure when James Key can join the team but I think Sauber are going to be even better next year. Renault surely should be at least 4th best team. So FI, Haas, Saubers and Mclaren will fight for 5th with STR having some good races in between. It will be close in the midfield. Williams without Stroll and his dad money are probably going to be slowest

It is a truly embarrassing situation for Mclaren, and there will be no Alonso next year to salvage points from nowhere.

The switch to Renault from Honda was a panic swap. In essence they have just stuck with Honda through their most difficult years only to ditch them as they begin to turn things around.

My guess at this point is that they've realised they messed up something fundamental on this year's car that they cannot change within the regulations, and that's why they've diverted all their resources to developing next year's car. I certainly get the impression that they are no longer even trying to update this year's car. As Lotus49 points out, other teams have been copying various aero parts, so obviously there are some areas that McLaren got right. But yeah, it is strange.

Lotus49 wrote:There's something so bizarre about this car and last years. I can't think of a worse car (This years) that has had so many pieces copied by the top teams that are already slaughtering them.

Rear wing endplates - Mercedes,Ferrari and Renault
Vortex generators on top of sidepod - Mercedes
Elements from floor/bargeboard - Force India,Mercedes and Renault
Nose pillars - Ferrari and STR

That's off the top of my head but it seems weekly on the f1technical forum there's new parts being spotted that originated at McLaren. All Aero related and yet the team that came up with them can't get the best out of them and even dumped some of the parts like the nose pillars.

No wonder there's so much head scratching going on at McLaren, they must have colossally messed up their suspension and engine integration as there's clearly something in the Aero that other teams like and find beneficial. Alonso did say two regulation changes hurt them, the trick suspension that sank on the straights allowing them to run more wing and the exhaust blowing of the monkey seat where Honda were said to be quite strong but even accounting for that they shouldn't be going backwards and actually regressing in some areas. They removed parts from the tea tray area in Spain when they introduced the new front end and they still haven't replaced them as far as I last checked which was Spa. They're the only team with no elements in this area.

Such a weird situation.

To me it shows clearly there is a massive lack of teamwork in the design/engineering team, although they obviously have talented and creative people. Great ideas are being used, but maybe not as cohesively as they should. I think they ought to continue restructuring their staff, and ensure that the more talented folks have more say in what happens with the car. But I do feel they might be heading in the right direction, as some key people have resigned or have been let go.

kleefton wrote:To me it shows clearly there is a massive lack of teamwork in the design/engineering team, although they obviously have talented and creative people. Great ideas are being used, but maybe not as cohesively as they should. I think they ought to continue restructuring their staff, and ensure that the more talented folks have more say in what happens with the car. But I do feel they might be heading in the right direction, as some key people have resigned or have been let go.

Perhaps this is why the technical director got the sack - if all the different components are good but they don't go together, that falls on the guy with the job of coordinating it.

kleefton wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:There's something so bizarre about this car and last years. I can't think of a worse car (This years) that has had so many pieces copied by the top teams that are already slaughtering them.

Rear wing endplates - Mercedes,Ferrari and Renault
Vortex generators on top of sidepod - Mercedes
Elements from floor/bargeboard - Force India,Mercedes and Renault
Nose pillars - Ferrari and STR

That's off the top of my head but it seems weekly on the f1technical forum there's new parts being spotted that originated at McLaren. All Aero related and yet the team that came up with them can't get the best out of them and even dumped some of the parts like the nose pillars.

No wonder there's so much head scratching going on at McLaren, they must have colossally messed up their suspension and engine integration as there's clearly something in the Aero that other teams like and find beneficial. Alonso did say two regulation changes hurt them, the trick suspension that sank on the straights allowing them to run more wing and the exhaust blowing of the monkey seat where Honda were said to be quite strong but even accounting for that they shouldn't be going backwards and actually regressing in some areas. They removed parts from the tea tray area in Spain when they introduced the new front end and they still haven't replaced them as far as I last checked which was Spa. They're the only team with no elements in this area.

Such a weird situation.

To me it shows clearly there is a massive lack of teamwork in the design/engineering team, although they obviously have talented and creative people. Great ideas are being used, but maybe not as cohesively as they should. I think they ought to continue restructuring their staff, and ensure that the more talented folks have more say in what happens with the car. But I do feel they might be heading in the right direction, as some key people have resigned or have been let go.

Short term I like Pat Fry coming in, I think his time at Ferrari is underrated because ultimately they didn't win but he helped run a tight ship with generally sound race operations,great reliability and some good cars despite the wind tunnel issues and not having the facilities and chassis budgets of Red Bull and McLaren.

Longer term James Key will be great I think but ultimately they're going to need favourable rules in 2021 and a budget cap to have a realistic chance to get back to competing for wins and championships. And they need to cough up for a full chassis dyno, they have to if they want to compete with the big 3. Red Bull are going to have 2 from next year with the Honda hook up, one in Japan and one in MK. It's expensive but it's a must before the budget cap comes in so hopefully the money saved on Alonso's salary can go towards one.

On 2019 there's a poster on another forum from around Woking who knows some guys and generally gives good information but not always 100% right. Like he'll know when a big part is coming but doesn't know specifically what it is. Like in WT he saw a large part leave the spray shop and thought it was new sidepods for Melbourne but I believe it was the new engine cover with the anti heat soak parts and holes built in rather than the cut outs they ran in Barcelona.

Anyway this was the post when asked what's in store for 2019...

Longer chassis.
New gearbox.
New rear suspension pickups
New radiators/intercoolers + sidepod intakes
New front and rear wing (obv)
____________


I remember reading back in WT that they had to move the engine forward because it's packaged differently to Honda and they had decrease their bargeboard area to accommodate it and I'm wondering if that's what's thrown a spanner in the works with the aero on the new nose concept and leading edge of the floor. They had a well developed tea tray area that they removed in Spain and still hadn't been replaced as of Spa.

Here..


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DlJCv9PW0AAzHXV.jpg:large

And here's Hungary and an example of everyone else's tea tray area and you can see how much they fell behind..


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DlJAPgCW4AAZNb4.jpg:large


I couldn't be further from an aero guy so I've no idea what's going on or why they've not been able to run their well developed parts from the MCL32 and early 33 in this area. There were posts from Albert Fabrega on twitter earlier in the year talking of a loss of contact pressure at the rear and they spoke of an aero correlation issue when they suspended development from Monaco so could the new front end, which would've been under development before any decision to switch to Renault was taken and therefore designed with the original bargeboard area size in mind, be causing some airflow issues around there?

Sounds such an obvious thing to take into account but so was the gear ratio thing Ferran admitted to but you would also think they could just switch back to the old front end if that was just the case of the new front end causing the aero issue so what else could be going on do we think because I've no idea why they would regress in this area to that extent and for that long.

Thoughts?

Thanks, Lotus 49. That was a most informative post.

Lotus49 wrote:On 2019 there's a poster on another forum from around Woking who knows some guys and generally gives good information but not always 100% right. Like he'll know when a big part is coming but doesn't know specifically what it is. Like in WT he saw a large part leave the spray shop and thought it was new sidepods for Melbourne but I believe it was the new engine cover with the anti heat soak parts and holes built in rather than the cut outs they ran in Barcelona.

Anyway this was the post when asked what's in store for 2019...

Longer chassis.
New gearbox.
New rear suspension pickups
New radiators/intercoolers + sidepod intakes
New front and rear wing (obv)
____________


I remember reading back in WT that they had to move the engine forward because it's packaged differently to Honda and they had decrease their bargeboard area to accommodate it and I'm wondering if that's what's thrown a spanner in the works with the aero on the new nose concept and leading edge of the floor. They had a well developed tea tray area that they removed in Spain and still hadn't been replaced as of Spa.

Here..


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DlJCv9PW0AAzHXV.jpg:large

And here's Hungary and an example of everyone else's tea tray area and you can see how much they fell behind..


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DlJAPgCW4AAZNb4.jpg:large


I couldn't be further from an aero guy so I've no idea what's going on or why they've not been able to run their well developed parts from the MCL32 and early 33 in this area. There were posts from Albert Fabrega on twitter earlier in the year talking of a loss of contact pressure at the rear and they spoke of an aero correlation issue when they suspended development from Monaco so could the new front end, which would've been under development before any decision to switch to Renault was taken and therefore designed with the original bargeboard area size in mind, be causing some airflow issues around there?

Sounds such an obvious thing to take into account but so was the gear ratio thing Ferran admitted to but you would also think they could just switch back to the old front end if that was just the case of the new front end causing the aero issue so what else could be going on do we think because I've no idea why they would regress in this area to that extent and for that long.

Thoughts?

Maybe its because they realize they have a fundamental problem with the car and lack understanding of it. If you don’t understand something it’s probably best to leave it as is. They are focusing on next year, as they should.

And yes, good info by the way.

Honestly the only course of action for McLaren that makes any sense is to abandon this car and focus on 2019. I see no reason to chastise them over this. Knowing Alonso's luck, McLaren will be competitive next season...

Are Mclaren even using Renault spec3 engine ? It is amazing right from testing they looked pretty average and just could not recover from it. In Russia how quickly RBR was able to recover starting at the back just shows there is a huge difference between top teams and midfield. I think Renault also have been disappointing this year. They also I think are focusing on next year. The battle in midfield is more exciting

It seems they forgot to order tyres for this race so pirelli have given them an even split so lots of mediums they wont use. What has happened to my team! - source all over the media.

Steve_muzzy wrote:It seems they forgot to order tyres for this race so pirelli have given them an even split so lots of mediums they wont use. What has happened to my team! - source all over the media.

I find that a bit...curious. One would have thought that Pirelli would have been in touch with them long before now had they not received an allocation request.

Zoue wrote:

Steve_muzzy wrote:It seems they forgot to order tyres for this race so pirelli have given them an even split so lots of mediums they wont use. What has happened to my team! - source all over the media.

I find that a bit...curious. One would have thought that Pirelli would have been in touch with them long before now had they not received an allocation request.

Its not really Pirellis job to chase the teams, if McLaren miss the deadline, its their own fault.

How far in advance do they need to order their allocation? Could it have been forgotten in the shuffle after Boulier left?

I thought Stroll did a good job. He almost had Alonso in Russia as well. Renault and Mclaren have given up this year. But still it is no excuse to get beat by smaller teams. FI probably will run out of time to beat Mclaren again this year. I think Haas has a better chance to beat Renault.

In Ted's notebook for Quali, he suggests the car is pretty much the one they took to Barcelona, and that Alonso has confirmed that as well.

Flash2k11 wrote:In Ted's notebook for Quali, he suggests the car is pretty much the one they took to Barcelona, and that Alonso has confirmed that as well.

yes I'm sure I read that a week or two ago, too. Basically they are now working entirely on 2019 and only bringing updates that they think are relevant to that car

Steve_muzzy wrote:It seems they forgot to order tyres for this race so pirelli have given them an even split so lots of mediums they wont use. What has happened to my team! - source all over the media.

The source may be all over the media, but Gil de Ferran has now directly denied it: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13920 ... oice-wrong

What reputable media source is reporting this story, anyway?

FIA confirm that tyre story is not true

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia- ... e/3192210/