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shay550 wrote:

FormulaFun wrote:I wonder if Leclerc will out perform vettel like Riccardo did and force him out. Very interesting, potential to be the most interesting move since ham to merc, if not more so

I can't help but think that Ricciardo has got screwed in all of this. He deserves to be in a top seat.

He hasn't got screwed he walked away from one.

Rockie wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Rockie wrote:
Every man and his dog knew Vettel had an agreement with Ferrari and could trigger at anytime, also Ferrari and Vettel signed the contract long before Horner announced it after he was told, also he didn't need Alonso to walk out he signed the contract before Alonso left.

Alonso still had 2 years left on his Ferrari contract, it needed Alonso to walk put, plus Alonso was also offered an extended contract until 2019 and Allison tried to convince Alonso to stay.

I know that some Vettel fans like the idea that Vettel deliberately under performed.

Kimi had a contract for '10 and it didn't stop Ferrari signing Alonso, so wondering what you are on about, Vettel signed his contract before Alonso left anyway.
F1 contracts are not worth the paper they are on, either party can break it or by mutual consent.

I guess you missed the point about Alonso being offered an extended contract, Vettel's pre-contract was only signed off after Alonso informed Ferrari that he was leaving.

mikeyg123 wrote:

Rockie wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Rockie wrote:
Every man and his dog knew Vettel had an agreement with Ferrari and could trigger at anytime, also Ferrari and Vettel signed the contract long before Horner announced it after he was told, also he didn't need Alonso to walk out he signed the contract before Alonso left.

Alonso still had 2 years left on his Ferrari contract, it needed Alonso to walk put, plus Alonso was also offered an extended contract until 2019 and Allison tried to convince Alonso to stay.

I know that some Vettel fans like the idea that Vettel deliberately under performed.

Kimi had a contract for '10 and it didn't stop Ferrari signing Alonso, so wondering what you are on about, Vettel signed his contract before Alonso left anyway.
F1 contracts are not worth the paper they are on, either party can break it or by mutual consent.

Kimi's 2010 contract was definitely worth a lot more than the paper it was written on

Yet that paper was sure expensive, $17M I believe?

KingVoid wrote:Vettel is is in a no-win situation here. If he beats Leclerc convincingly, people will just say that Leclerc was always overrated and nothing special. But if Vettel loses to Leclerc, his legacy will take a big hit. Vettel has little to gain and everything to lose.

The best scenario for Vettel would be if Leclerc wins races and looks strong, but Vettel still beats him overall, kind of like Hamilton-Rosberg.

It's true that Vettel can't raise his stock against Leclerc but then again it was also true to an extent with Hamilton against Bottas.

mikeyg123 wrote:

shay550 wrote:

FormulaFun wrote:I wonder if Leclerc will out perform vettel like Riccardo did and force him out. Very interesting, potential to be the most interesting move since ham to merc, if not more so

I can't help but think that Ricciardo has got screwed in all of this. He deserves to be in a top seat.

He hasn't got screwed he walked away from one.

Red Bull is a work in progress and a bit of a lotto ticket for next year. Merc and Ferrari are the top teams in F1.

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:Vettel is is in a no-win situation here. If he beats Leclerc convincingly, people will just say that Leclerc was always overrated and nothing special. But if Vettel loses to Leclerc, his legacy will take a big hit. Vettel has little to gain and everything to lose.

The best scenario for Vettel would be if Leclerc wins races and looks strong, but Vettel still beats him overall, kind of like Hamilton-Rosberg.

It's true that Vettel can't raise his stock against Leclerc but then again it was also true to an extent with Hamilton against Bottas.

You can't equate Bottas and Leclerc though.

Rockie wrote:

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:Vettel is is in a no-win situation here. If he beats Leclerc convincingly, people will just say that Leclerc was always overrated and nothing special. But if Vettel loses to Leclerc, his legacy will take a big hit. Vettel has little to gain and everything to lose.

The best scenario for Vettel would be if Leclerc wins races and looks strong, but Vettel still beats him overall, kind of like Hamilton-Rosberg.

It's true that Vettel can't raise his stock against Leclerc but then again it was also true to an extent with Hamilton against Bottas.

You can't equate Bottas and Leclerc though.

Yes, Bottas is currently a better F1 driver than Leclerc. We are banking on Leclerc improving if we are expecting him to worry Vettel consistently.

Rockie wrote:

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:Vettel is is in a no-win situation here. If he beats Leclerc convincingly, people will just say that Leclerc was always overrated and nothing special. But if Vettel loses to Leclerc, his legacy will take a big hit. Vettel has little to gain and everything to lose.

The best scenario for Vettel would be if Leclerc wins races and looks strong, but Vettel still beats him overall, kind of like Hamilton-Rosberg.

It's true that Vettel can't raise his stock against Leclerc but then again it was also true to an extent with Hamilton against Bottas.

You can't equate Bottas and Leclerc though.

Why not?

mikeyg123 wrote:

Rockie wrote:You can't equate Bottas and Leclerc though.

Yes, Bottas is currently a better F1 driver than Leclerc. We are banking on Leclerc improving if we are expecting him to worry Vettel consistently.

I'm pretty sure Rockie meant that in the exact opposite way to how you took it. Leclerc is much more hyped than Bottas ever was - nobody expected Bottas to challenge Hamilton when he went to Mercedes, whereas there are many people who clearly do expect Leclerc to give Vettel a hard time right out of the box.

Exediron wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Rockie wrote:You can't equate Bottas and Leclerc though.

Yes, Bottas is currently a better F1 driver than Leclerc. We are banking on Leclerc improving if we are expecting him to worry Vettel consistently.

I'm pretty sure Rockie meant that in the exact opposite way to how you took it. Leclerc is much more hyped than Bottas ever was - nobody expected Bottas to challenge Hamilton when he went to Mercedes, whereas there are many people who clearly do expect Leclerc to give Vettel a hard time right out of the box.

That's because we knew pretty much exactly how good Bottas was. Leclerc is more of a mystery. Right now he is not as good as Bottas, there's no way Bottas would get beaten so often by Ericsson, but drivers usually improve well in their second season and Leclerc has been mercurial enough for us to think his top level could well be pretty high.

mikeyg123 wrote:That's because we knew pretty much exactly how good Bottas was. Leclerc is more of a mystery. Right now he is not as good as Bottas, there's no way Bottas would get beaten so often by Ericsson, but drivers usually improve well in their second season and Leclerc has been mercurial enough for us to think his top level could well be pretty high.

Beaten so often by Ericsson? He was beaten in his first three races, yes, when he clearly hadn't got to grips with an F1 car. Since then, Ericsson has beaten him all of once, in Germany when Leclerc admittedly performed poorly on the wet/dry track. Leclerc has finished ahead in every other race they've both finished, and to my memory he was ahead for all his retirements as well. Frankly, I wouldn't be shocked if Bottas would get beaten once by Ericsson. But perhaps you rate Bottas more highly than I do.

mikeyg123 wrote:

Exediron wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Rockie wrote:You can't equate Bottas and Leclerc though.

Yes, Bottas is currently a better F1 driver than Leclerc. We are banking on Leclerc improving if we are expecting him to worry Vettel consistently.

I'm pretty sure Rockie meant that in the exact opposite way to how you took it. Leclerc is much more hyped than Bottas ever was - nobody expected Bottas to challenge Hamilton when he went to Mercedes, whereas there are many people who clearly do expect Leclerc to give Vettel a hard time right out of the box.

That's because we knew pretty much exactly how good Bottas was. Leclerc is more of a mystery. Right now he is not as good as Bottas, there's no way Bottas would get beaten so often by Ericsson, but drivers usually improve well in their second season and Leclerc has been mercurial enough for us to think his top level could well be pretty high.

Ever since Baku, Leclerc has basically never been outpaced by Ericsson. Leclerc sometimes finishes behind because he's made a mistake, or because of bad luck, but he is almost never outpaced. The average qualifying gap between them is the largest in the field.

It's fair to say that Leclerc's speed is an enigma. We don't have any reliable benchmark.

Bottas was only slightly quicker than Massa, so we had a fairly good idea of how fast he was going to be.

mikeyg123 wrote:

Exediron wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Rockie wrote:You can't equate Bottas and Leclerc though.

Yes, Bottas is currently a better F1 driver than Leclerc. We are banking on Leclerc improving if we are expecting him to worry Vettel consistently.

I'm pretty sure Rockie meant that in the exact opposite way to how you took it. Leclerc is much more hyped than Bottas ever was - nobody expected Bottas to challenge Hamilton when he went to Mercedes, whereas there are many people who clearly do expect Leclerc to give Vettel a hard time right out of the box.

That's because we knew pretty much exactly how good Bottas was. Leclerc is more of a mystery. Right now he is not as good as Bottas, there's no way Bottas would get beaten so often by Ericsson, but drivers usually improve well in their second season and Leclerc has been mercurial enough for us to think his top level could well be pretty high.

Not sure what you've been watching but Leclerc has starched Ericsson this season.

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

Zoue wrote:

Jenson's Understeer wrote:

BMWSauber84 wrote:If the rumour that the Kimi to Sauber deal was negotiated totally independently of Ferrari is true then that has some ramifications for Sauber's future relationship with Ferrari.

What does this mean for the future of Giovanazzi? If both Sauber and Haas are determined to do things their own way with the driver lineup, then perhaps Ferrari might not be so keen to supply engines in future.

By all accounts Ferrari get to chose one of Sauber's drivers as part of the Alfa Romeo sponsorship deal, so if Kimi and Sauber negotiated this without any involvement from Ferrari, that would actually be better for Giovinazzi. It would mean Ferrari still have that option, and would basically guarantee a Raikkonen/Giovinazzi line-up at Sauber next year (which would be ideal for Ferrari as they could indirectly compare Giovinazzi to Seb by seeing how he performs relative to Raikkonen).

If it's true that Kimi negotiated this independently of Ferrari, then that may tie in with rumours around the time he joined Lotus where he was apparently in negotiations to own a stake in the Williams team. It would seem he has an ambition to be a race team (part) owner

Didn't know that. You have a source??

Nothing concrete, but here's one:

https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2011/11 ... raikkonen/

mikeyg123 wrote:

KingVoid wrote:Vettel is is in a no-win situation here. If he beats Leclerc convincingly, people will just say that Leclerc was always overrated and nothing special. But if Vettel loses to Leclerc, his legacy will take a big hit. Vettel has little to gain and everything to lose.

The best scenario for Vettel would be if Leclerc wins races and looks strong, but Vettel still beats him overall, kind of like Hamilton-Rosberg.

I don't know. I think it depends on the level of his driving. If he beats Leclerc and win the championship his stock will rise.

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:Vettel is is in a no-win situation here. If he beats Leclerc convincingly, people will just say that Leclerc was always overrated and nothing special. But if Vettel loses to Leclerc, his legacy will take a big hit. Vettel has little to gain and everything to lose.

The best scenario for Vettel would be if Leclerc wins races and looks strong, but Vettel still beats him overall, kind of like Hamilton-Rosberg.

It's true that Vettel can't raise his stock against Leclerc but then again it was also true to an extent with Hamilton against Bottas.

I've thought about this for a bit longer.

Vettel's stock cannot rise in 2019, but it can rise with time. If Vettel beats Leclerc in 2019, and then Leclerc goes on to have a very successful career and wins multiple championships, then Vettel's stock will definitely rise over time.

2019 is a big risk for Vettel, but it's also a big opportunity. If Vettel beats Leclerc, but Leclerc turns out to be a great driver, then Vettel's legacy will strengthen significantly.

If he loses however...

Sounds pretty complicated. Why all the concern for the stock of Vettel? At the end of it all we'll see the ledgers of all the drivers and will be able to adequately judge.

shay550 wrote:

FormulaFun wrote:I wonder if Leclerc will out perform vettel like Riccardo did and force him out. Very interesting, potential to be the most interesting move since ham to merc, if not more so

I can't help but think that Ricciardo has got screwed in all of this. He deserves to be in a top seat.

Hmm, depends how Renault turns out, hopefully they will produce something good when aero is not so important and heard that spec C Renault engine is a good base to equalise the engine difference between themselves and Ferrari/merc. Could end up being a genius move, everyone was very negative about Hamilton to Merc. Obvs current Renault is worse than 2013 merc but still, shows that things can change. Guess that's what Riccardo is hoping, agree tho he is a top driver, he's won many races yet never had the best car. Personally rate him much higher than over hyped max verstappen

pokerman wrote:

Lt. Drebin wrote:I don't think that Leclerc will so easily get faster than Seb. The next 2 years Vettel will dominate, Leclerc will develop. I foresee no fireworks.

I think that's something you can't predict, we don't know how good Leclerc is.

True, but that is valid for every other opinion stated above and bellow.

TedStriker wrote:According to the BBC, 'Keeping Raikkonen had been Vettel's preferred option'.

Well yes, it would be wouldn't it!

So how will Kimi react to team orders for the rest of the season now he's leaving and knows he's not got many more opportunities for a race win? It could get a little spicy.

I suspect that's the whole point of him going to Sauber. I'm sure Ferrari helped facilitate that.

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

Battle Far wrote:Firstly, those who are worried about Leclerc not being allowed to race Vettel are deluded, give him 6 or so races and the only view of Leclerc that Vettel will have is of his gearbox...

Secondly, Ferrari didn't have to give Sauber any money to take Raikonnen, they've could just stop charging them for engines for next year and the year after...

Where do some of you guys derive such nonsense??

You speak as if Vettel is a scrub of sorts and Leclerc is this proven beast of a driver when in fact he's only bested Ericsson by a smidgen at this point and his performance against Ericsson is almost identical to Wherlin, yet Wherlin wasn't touted as being this all encompassing next super talent in F1. However Leclerc's praises are being sung to the moon and back almost to the level Vandoorne's praises were sung 2 seasons ago, and boy were many people wrong about him and his ability.

As I stated in regards to Vandoorne back then, why don't we wait and see how the kid does against a proven commodity and one of the all-time greats before we pass the torch.

The Ricciardo vs Vettel was a bit of an anomaly and if you were to pair them together again, I'm not so sure Ricciardo would best Vettel like that again, and rather, I'd expect Vettel to beat him consistently. Something about 2014 still doen't fit with Vettel just like 2011 doesn't fit with the rest of Hamilton's career.

Was Vettel just off?…

Did the car not suit him?…

Was he already with Ferrari in his head so not pushing to the limit?…

IDK, could be one of those things or all of them combined, but what I do know is that the same Vettel who won those 4 championships and all those races for Red Bull is still alive and well and doing phenomenally well while Ricciardo is finding it difficult to beat his young erratic teammate who though quick, is also not on Vettel's level.


How about we leave all this "next messiah" talk in regards to Leclerc for after the 2019 season is over? Only then will we have seen enough of him in a top car alongside a top elite talent to be able to truly assess his talent and ability.


Sorry but I live in South Florida which is the home of the Miami Dolphins and since we moved here in 1987, ALL you hear when a new talent is signed, be it a player, a coach, a general manage or anyone in a high profile position is the "THE SO & SO" Era and quite frankly the one time it was on its way to actually coming to fruition, their star QB didn't like the coach so they fired him. Outside of that, it has NEVER worked out!!!!

So for me, I cannot stand for people to definitively say what youngsters who have yet to prove themselves fully at the top level will do one way or another.
Triple A and Feeder leagues are a significant step down from the big leagues and the ONLY place you can see true separation is IN the big leagues.

The answer to why Riciardo beat Vettel is, in my opinion, that he had worked flat-out for 4 years to win 4 championships. I think the car didn't suit him and he didn't have the energy or focus to get on top of it. I'm not a huge SV fan but he is not behind Riciardo in my opinion.

Just wondering, if only Kimi won the last Monza GP, would he be retained by Ferrari for 2019?

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

Battle Far wrote:Firstly, those who are worried about Leclerc not being allowed to race Vettel are deluded, give him 6 or so races and the only view of Leclerc that Vettel will have is of his gearbox...

Secondly, Ferrari didn't have to give Sauber any money to take Raikonnen, they've could just stop charging them for engines for next year and the year after...

Where do some of you guys derive such nonsense??

You speak as if Vettel is a scrub of sorts and Leclerc is this proven beast of a driver when in fact he's only bested Ericsson by a smidgen at this point and his performance against Ericsson is almost identical to Wherlin, yet Wherlin wasn't touted as being this all encompassing next super talent in F1. However Leclerc's praises are being sung to the moon and back almost to the level Vandoorne's praises were sung 2 seasons ago, and boy were many people wrong about him and his ability.

As I stated in regards to Vandoorne back then, why don't we wait and see how the kid does against a proven commodity and one of the all-time greats before we pass the torch.

The Ricciardo vs Vettel was a bit of an anomaly and if you were to pair them together again, I'm not so sure Ricciardo would best Vettel like that again, and rather, I'd expect Vettel to beat him consistently. Something about 2014 still doen't fit with Vettel just like 2011 doesn't fit with the rest of Hamilton's career.

Was Vettel just off?…

Did the car not suit him?…

Was he already with Ferrari in his head so not pushing to the limit?…

IDK, could be one of those things or all of them combined, but what I do know is that the same Vettel who won those 4 championships and all those races for Red Bull is still alive and well and doing phenomenally well while Ricciardo is finding it difficult to beat his young erratic teammate who though quick, is also not on Vettel's level.


How about we leave all this "next messiah" talk in regards to Leclerc for after the 2019 season is over? Only then will we have seen enough of him in a top car alongside a top elite talent to be able to truly assess his talent and ability.


Sorry but I live in South Florida which is the home of the Miami Dolphins and since we moved here in 1987, ALL you hear when a new talent is signed, be it a player, a coach, a general manage or anyone in a high profile position is the "THE SO & SO" Era and quite frankly the one time it was on its way to actually coming to fruition, their star QB didn't like the coach so they fired him. Outside of that, it has NEVER worked out!!!!

So for me, I cannot stand for people to definitively say what youngsters who have yet to prove themselves fully at the top level will do one way or another.
Triple A and Feeder leagues are a significant step down from the big leagues and the ONLY place you can see true separation is IN the big leagues.

This.

I am completely unhappy with Ferrari's decision, because of Kimi, although it helps that he will still be on the tarmac next season. I do feel that we will see things from Sauber that we have not seen for a while next year and that is pretty exciting. An experienced driver is always going to be better at feedback and driving, so I expect progress.

sandman1347 wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Exediron wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Rockie wrote:You can't equate Bottas and Leclerc though.

Yes, Bottas is currently a better F1 driver than Leclerc. We are banking on Leclerc improving if we are expecting him to worry Vettel consistently.

I'm pretty sure Rockie meant that in the exact opposite way to how you took it. Leclerc is much more hyped than Bottas ever was - nobody expected Bottas to challenge Hamilton when he went to Mercedes, whereas there are many people who clearly do expect Leclerc to give Vettel a hard time right out of the box.

That's because we knew pretty much exactly how good Bottas was. Leclerc is more of a mystery. Right now he is not as good as Bottas, there's no way Bottas would get beaten so often by Ericsson, but drivers usually improve well in their second season and Leclerc has been mercurial enough for us to think his top level could well be pretty high.

Not sure what you've been watching but Leclerc has starched Ericsson this season.

Ericsson has been dominated in most qualifying sessions. But only 5 races. Aserbaijan, Spain Canada, France and Britain. In Monaco, Ericsson at one stage very quickly caught Leclerc, who was admittedly stuck behind Hartley, but we can't confirm who was quicker. Austria, for the majority of the race, Ericsson was quicker. Without team orders of him having to give the position back, he likely could have got past Leclerc anyway in the end. Germany. Leclerc may have been better to start with, but Leclerc finished well over a minute behind Ericsson, who was in the points. In Hungary, Leclerc possibly showed his weakness in the rain as Ericsson (who had only finished 2 wet races in his career) out qualified him. I think Ericsson is weak in the wet, so I think Leclerc seems to possibly have a huge weakness here for some reason. This race can't really get compared as Leclerc instantly retired. In Spa, the drivers were closer in qualifying despite Ericsson missing out on his final run for some reason. He went back to the pits and got out of his car with quite some time to spare. Looked like it was out of fuel or something. Leclerc was only just over a tenth ahead until his final run attempt which increased it to around 0.25 seconds over Ericsson. Leclerc missed out due to the huge crash, but Ericsson looked at least decent. Italy is another qualifying session that was not as far apart as it used to be. Ericsson also probably didn't do all he could too as he did have a penalty. Ericsson suffered a puncture at the start of the race. The safety car may have helped him a bit, but despite a strategy that wasn't ideal, he was still only around 15 seconds off Leclerc despite this. Another close race if I'm honest. To me, given the hypy, Leclerc just isn't beating Ericsson by a big enough margin for me to consider him as truly spectacular. A few too many of his weaker performances get overlooked.

Basically, over a weekend, in terms of the races, Ericsson has looked better or very close to Leclerc for about half of the races that are fair to compare them. First 3, Monaco, Austria, and Germany. Ericsson may never had dominated other than in Germany. Leclerc on the other hand has in the 5 i mentioned. But given his hype, he should do this much more often. I at the moment personally think Leclerc is rather over rated. Despite me thinking Ericsson is just about good enough for F1, he's not that good, and has managed to quite often look close or sometimes beat Leclerc. I highly doubt he will instantly start challenging Vettel.

sandman1347 wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Exediron wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Rockie wrote:You can't equate Bottas and Leclerc though.

Yes, Bottas is currently a better F1 driver than Leclerc. We are banking on Leclerc improving if we are expecting him to worry Vettel consistently.

I'm pretty sure Rockie meant that in the exact opposite way to how you took it. Leclerc is much more hyped than Bottas ever was - nobody expected Bottas to challenge Hamilton when he went to Mercedes, whereas there are many people who clearly do expect Leclerc to give Vettel a hard time right out of the box.

That's because we knew pretty much exactly how good Bottas was. Leclerc is more of a mystery. Right now he is not as good as Bottas, there's no way Bottas would get beaten so often by Ericsson, but drivers usually improve well in their second season and Leclerc has been mercurial enough for us to think his top level could well be pretty high.

Not sure what you've been watching but Leclerc has starched Ericsson this season.

Ericsson has often had the better of him. More often than you'd expect him to beat Bottas anyway.

mikeyg123 wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Exediron wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote: Yes, Bottas is currently a better F1 driver than Leclerc. We are banking on Leclerc improving if we are expecting him to worry Vettel consistently.

I'm pretty sure Rockie meant that in the exact opposite way to how you took it. Leclerc is much more hyped than Bottas ever was - nobody expected Bottas to challenge Hamilton when he went to Mercedes, whereas there are many people who clearly do expect Leclerc to give Vettel a hard time right out of the box.

That's because we knew pretty much exactly how good Bottas was. Leclerc is more of a mystery. Right now he is not as good as Bottas, there's no way Bottas would get beaten so often by Ericsson, but drivers usually improve well in their second season and Leclerc has been mercurial enough for us to think his top level could well be pretty high.

Not sure what you've been watching but Leclerc has starched Ericsson this season.

Ericsson has often had the better of him. More often than you'd expect him to beat Bottas anyway.

I've basically gone over this in my post above. I'me not sure if I'd say often, but they have often been close and that is for about half the races this year. And Ericsson has been better several times too, just not by that much.

Haven't posted here for a while, how have you all been?

This is very exciting, finally some new young blood in a topcar and nice to see it's Ferrari going for it.
If they are allowed to race I think it will be a very close battle. All the best for Leclerc, I think I'm a fan, please stay humble!

Warheart01 wrote:Haven't posted here for a while, how have you all been?

I've been naughty.

sandman1347 wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Exediron wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Rockie wrote:You can't equate Bottas and Leclerc though.

Yes, Bottas is currently a better F1 driver than Leclerc. We are banking on Leclerc improving if we are expecting him to worry Vettel consistently.

I'm pretty sure Rockie meant that in the exact opposite way to how you took it. Leclerc is much more hyped than Bottas ever was - nobody expected Bottas to challenge Hamilton when he went to Mercedes, whereas there are many people who clearly do expect Leclerc to give Vettel a hard time right out of the box.

That's because we knew pretty much exactly how good Bottas was. Leclerc is more of a mystery. Right now he is not as good as Bottas, there's no way Bottas would get beaten so often by Ericsson, but drivers usually improve well in their second season and Leclerc has been mercurial enough for us to think his top level could well be pretty high.

Not sure what you've been watching but Leclerc has starched Ericsson this season.

Indeed which is basically the reason why he is driving for Ferrari next season.

Dash33 wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

Battle Far wrote:Firstly, those who are worried about Leclerc not being allowed to race Vettel are deluded, give him 6 or so races and the only view of Leclerc that Vettel will have is of his gearbox...

Secondly, Ferrari didn't have to give Sauber any money to take Raikonnen, they've could just stop charging them for engines for next year and the year after...

Where do some of you guys derive such nonsense??

You speak as if Vettel is a scrub of sorts and Leclerc is this proven beast of a driver when in fact he's only bested Ericsson by a smidgen at this point and his performance against Ericsson is almost identical to Wherlin, yet Wherlin wasn't touted as being this all encompassing next super talent in F1. However Leclerc's praises are being sung to the moon and back almost to the level Vandoorne's praises were sung 2 seasons ago, and boy were many people wrong about him and his ability.

As I stated in regards to Vandoorne back then, why don't we wait and see how the kid does against a proven commodity and one of the all-time greats before we pass the torch.

The Ricciardo vs Vettel was a bit of an anomaly and if you were to pair them together again, I'm not so sure Ricciardo would best Vettel like that again, and rather, I'd expect Vettel to beat him consistently. Something about 2014 still doen't fit with Vettel just like 2011 doesn't fit with the rest of Hamilton's career.

Was Vettel just off?…

Did the car not suit him?…

Was he already with Ferrari in his head so not pushing to the limit?…

IDK, could be one of those things or all of them combined, but what I do know is that the same Vettel who won those 4 championships and all those races for Red Bull is still alive and well and doing phenomenally well while Ricciardo is finding it difficult to beat his young erratic teammate who though quick, is also not on Vettel's level.


How about we leave all this "next messiah" talk in regards to Leclerc for after the 2019 season is over? Only then will we have seen enough of him in a top car alongside a top elite talent to be able to truly assess his talent and ability.


Sorry but I live in South Florida which is the home of the Miami Dolphins and since we moved here in 1987, ALL you hear when a new talent is signed, be it a player, a coach, a general manage or anyone in a high profile position is the "THE SO & SO" Era and quite frankly the one time it was on its way to actually coming to fruition, their star QB didn't like the coach so they fired him. Outside of that, it has NEVER worked out!!!!

So for me, I cannot stand for people to definitively say what youngsters who have yet to prove themselves fully at the top level will do one way or another.
Triple A and Feeder leagues are a significant step down from the big leagues and the ONLY place you can see true separation is IN the big leagues.

The answer to why Riciardo beat Vettel is, in my opinion, that he had worked flat-out for 4 years to win 4 championships. I think the car didn't suit him and he didn't have the energy or focus to get on top of it. I'm not a huge SV fan but he is not behind Riciardo in my opinion.

Yeah, that's always been what I've thought as well. I think, had Red Bull still been the team to beat, Seb would've been as focused as he had been the previous years because he would've been attempting to win his fifth successive WDC. As soon as it became apparent that they weren't even going to be fighting for wins on pure performance, I think he mentally checked out and started looking towards the exit.

Of course, I could be completely wrong and he could've been giving 100%...

KingVoid wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

KingVoid wrote:Vettel is is in a no-win situation here. If he beats Leclerc convincingly, people will just say that Leclerc was always overrated and nothing special. But if Vettel loses to Leclerc, his legacy will take a big hit. Vettel has little to gain and everything to lose.

The best scenario for Vettel would be if Leclerc wins races and looks strong, but Vettel still beats him overall, kind of like Hamilton-Rosberg.

I don't know. I think it depends on the level of his driving. If he beats Leclerc and win the championship his stock will rise.

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:Vettel is is in a no-win situation here. If he beats Leclerc convincingly, people will just say that Leclerc was always overrated and nothing special. But if Vettel loses to Leclerc, his legacy will take a big hit. Vettel has little to gain and everything to lose.

The best scenario for Vettel would be if Leclerc wins races and looks strong, but Vettel still beats him overall, kind of like Hamilton-Rosberg.

It's true that Vettel can't raise his stock against Leclerc but then again it was also true to an extent with Hamilton against Bottas.

I've thought about this for a bit longer.

Vettel's stock cannot rise in 2019, but it can rise with time. If Vettel beats Leclerc in 2019, and then Leclerc goes on to have a very successful career and wins multiple championships, then Vettel's stock will definitely rise over time.

2019 is a big risk for Vettel, but it's also a big opportunity. If Vettel beats Leclerc, but Leclerc turns out to be a great driver, then Vettel's legacy will strengthen significantly.

If he loses however...

Yes good point, short term it can't rise but it could long term.

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

Battle Far wrote:Firstly, those who are worried about Leclerc not being allowed to race Vettel are deluded, give him 6 or so races and the only view of Leclerc that Vettel will have is of his gearbox...

Secondly, Ferrari didn't have to give Sauber any money to take Raikonnen, they've could just stop charging them for engines for next year and the year after...

Where do some of you guys derive such nonsense??

You speak as if Vettel is a scrub of sorts and Leclerc is this proven beast of a driver when in fact he's only bested Ericsson by a smidgen at this point and his performance against Ericsson is almost identical to Wherlin, yet Wherlin wasn't touted as being this all encompassing next super talent in F1. However Leclerc's praises are being sung to the moon and back almost to the level Vandoorne's praises were sung 2 seasons ago, and boy were many people wrong about him and his ability.

As I stated in regards to Vandoorne back then, why don't we wait and see how the kid does against a proven commodity and one of the all-time greats before we pass the torch.

The Ricciardo vs Vettel was a bit of an anomaly and if you were to pair them together again, I'm not so sure Ricciardo would best Vettel like that again, and rather, I'd expect Vettel to beat him consistently. Something about 2014 still doen't fit with Vettel just like 2011 doesn't fit with the rest of Hamilton's career.

Was Vettel just off?…

Did the car not suit him?…

Was he already with Ferrari in his head so not pushing to the limit?…

IDK, could be one of those things or all of them combined, but what I do know is that the same Vettel who won those 4 championships and all those races for Red Bull is still alive and well and doing phenomenally well while Ricciardo is finding it difficult to beat his young erratic teammate who though quick, is also not on Vettel's level.


How about we leave all this "next messiah" talk in regards to Leclerc for after the 2019 season is over? Only then will we have seen enough of him in a top car alongside a top elite talent to be able to truly assess his talent and ability.


Sorry but I live in South Florida which is the home of the Miami Dolphins and since we moved here in 1987, ALL you hear when a new talent is signed, be it a player, a coach, a general manage or anyone in a high profile position is the "THE SO & SO" Era and quite frankly the one time it was on its way to actually coming to fruition, their star QB didn't like the coach so they fired him. Outside of that, it has NEVER worked out!!!!

So for me, I cannot stand for people to definitively say what youngsters who have yet to prove themselves fully at the top level will do one way or another.
Triple A and Feeder leagues are a significant step down from the big leagues and the ONLY place you can see true separation is IN the big leagues.

While I agree with the notion that we shouldn't hype Leclerc too much until we actually know how good he is, I can't disagree more with what you've said about Daniel Ricciardo. So because you think that 2014 was an anomaly, we should just ignore the fact that Daniel bested Seb comprehensively that year? Not only that, you actually have the audacity to claim that you expect Vettel would beat him "consistently" if they were teamed together again. What's the point of having these races if people just ignore the results and make up their own conclusions?

The way that Daniel beat Seb doesn't suggest anomaly. It wasn't about crashes or mechanical failures. Daniel was just plain faster both on Saturdays and Sundays. That shouldn't be written off IMO.

2fast wrote:Just wondering, if only Kimi won the last Monza GP, would he be retained by Ferrari for 2019?

No this was set in motion before Monza.

Most of the races where Marcus has got close to Leclerc down to Leclerc being a victim of his own success. Charles often finds himself scrapping with drivers in better equipment which has allowed Ericsson to get closer than he otherwise would.

Jenson's Understeer wrote:

Dash33 wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

Battle Far wrote:Firstly, those who are worried about Leclerc not being allowed to race Vettel are deluded, give him 6 or so races and the only view of Leclerc that Vettel will have is of his gearbox...

Secondly, Ferrari didn't have to give Sauber any money to take Raikonnen, they've could just stop charging them for engines for next year and the year after...

Where do some of you guys derive such nonsense??

You speak as if Vettel is a scrub of sorts and Leclerc is this proven beast of a driver when in fact he's only bested Ericsson by a smidgen at this point and his performance against Ericsson is almost identical to Wherlin, yet Wherlin wasn't touted as being this all encompassing next super talent in F1. However Leclerc's praises are being sung to the moon and back almost to the level Vandoorne's praises were sung 2 seasons ago, and boy were many people wrong about him and his ability.

As I stated in regards to Vandoorne back then, why don't we wait and see how the kid does against a proven commodity and one of the all-time greats before we pass the torch.

The Ricciardo vs Vettel was a bit of an anomaly and if you were to pair them together again, I'm not so sure Ricciardo would best Vettel like that again, and rather, I'd expect Vettel to beat him consistently. Something about 2014 still doen't fit with Vettel just like 2011 doesn't fit with the rest of Hamilton's career.

Was Vettel just off?…

Did the car not suit him?…

Was he already with Ferrari in his head so not pushing to the limit?…

IDK, could be one of those things or all of them combined, but what I do know is that the same Vettel who won those 4 championships and all those races for Red Bull is still alive and well and doing phenomenally well while Ricciardo is finding it difficult to beat his young erratic teammate who though quick, is also not on Vettel's level.


How about we leave all this "next messiah" talk in regards to Leclerc for after the 2019 season is over? Only then will we have seen enough of him in a top car alongside a top elite talent to be able to truly assess his talent and ability.


Sorry but I live in South Florida which is the home of the Miami Dolphins and since we moved here in 1987, ALL you hear when a new talent is signed, be it a player, a coach, a general manage or anyone in a high profile position is the "THE SO & SO" Era and quite frankly the one time it was on its way to actually coming to fruition, their star QB didn't like the coach so they fired him. Outside of that, it has NEVER worked out!!!!

So for me, I cannot stand for people to definitively say what youngsters who have yet to prove themselves fully at the top level will do one way or another.
Triple A and Feeder leagues are a significant step down from the big leagues and the ONLY place you can see true separation is IN the big leagues.

The answer to why Riciardo beat Vettel is, in my opinion, that he had worked flat-out for 4 years to win 4 championships. I think the car didn't suit him and he didn't have the energy or focus to get on top of it. I'm not a huge SV fan but he is not behind Riciardo in my opinion.

Yeah, that's always been what I've thought as well. I think, had Red Bull still been the team to beat, Seb would've been as focused as he had been the previous years because he would've been attempting to win his fifth successive WDC. As soon as it became apparent that they weren't even going to be fighting for wins on pure performance, I think he mentally checked out and started looking towards the exit.

Of course, I could be completely wrong and he could've been giving 100%...

All that ignores the fact that Vettel hates to be beaten, it also kind of ignores Ricciardo not being signed by Ferrari for next year.

BMWSauber84 wrote:Most of the races where Marcus has got close to Leclerc down to Leclerc being a victim of his own success. Charles often finds himself scrapping with drivers in better equipment which has allowed Ericsson to get closer than he otherwise would.

I must admit that apart from qualifying I'm not looking out for the Sauber teammate battle, are Ferrari also guilty of this?

I would have thought they might be more diligent?

sandman1347 wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

Battle Far wrote:Firstly, those who are worried about Leclerc not being allowed to race Vettel are deluded, give him 6 or so races and the only view of Leclerc that Vettel will have is of his gearbox...

Secondly, Ferrari didn't have to give Sauber any money to take Raikonnen, they've could just stop charging them for engines for next year and the year after...

Where do some of you guys derive such nonsense??

You speak as if Vettel is a scrub of sorts and Leclerc is this proven beast of a driver when in fact he's only bested Ericsson by a smidgen at this point and his performance against Ericsson is almost identical to Wherlin, yet Wherlin wasn't touted as being this all encompassing next super talent in F1. However Leclerc's praises are being sung to the moon and back almost to the level Vandoorne's praises were sung 2 seasons ago, and boy were many people wrong about him and his ability.

As I stated in regards to Vandoorne back then, why don't we wait and see how the kid does against a proven commodity and one of the all-time greats before we pass the torch.

The Ricciardo vs Vettel was a bit of an anomaly and if you were to pair them together again, I'm not so sure Ricciardo would best Vettel like that again, and rather, I'd expect Vettel to beat him consistently. Something about 2014 still doen't fit with Vettel just like 2011 doesn't fit with the rest of Hamilton's career.

Was Vettel just off?…

Did the car not suit him?…

Was he already with Ferrari in his head so not pushing to the limit?…

IDK, could be one of those things or all of them combined, but what I do know is that the same Vettel who won those 4 championships and all those races for Red Bull is still alive and well and doing phenomenally well while Ricciardo is finding it difficult to beat his young erratic teammate who though quick, is also not on Vettel's level.


How about we leave all this "next messiah" talk in regards to Leclerc for after the 2019 season is over? Only then will we have seen enough of him in a top car alongside a top elite talent to be able to truly assess his talent and ability.


Sorry but I live in South Florida which is the home of the Miami Dolphins and since we moved here in 1987, ALL you hear when a new talent is signed, be it a player, a coach, a general manage or anyone in a high profile position is the "THE SO & SO" Era and quite frankly the one time it was on its way to actually coming to fruition, their star QB didn't like the coach so they fired him. Outside of that, it has NEVER worked out!!!!

So for me, I cannot stand for people to definitively say what youngsters who have yet to prove themselves fully at the top level will do one way or another.
Triple A and Feeder leagues are a significant step down from the big leagues and the ONLY place you can see true separation is IN the big leagues.

While I agree with the notion that we shouldn't hype Leclerc too much until we actually know how good he is, I can't disagree more with what you've said about Daniel Ricciardo. So because you think that 2014 was an anomaly, we should just ignore the fact that Daniel bested Seb comprehensively that year? Not only that, you actually have the audacity to claim that you expect Vettel would beat him "consistently" if they were teamed together again. What's the point of having these races if people just ignore the results and make up their own conclusions?

The way that Daniel beat Seb doesn't suggest anomaly. It wasn't about crashes or mechanical failures. Daniel was just plain faster both on Saturdays and Sundays. That shouldn't be written off IMO.

Maybe just maybe, you need to check the dictionary for what an anomaly means.

Everyone is allowed their opinion, but to look at '14 and truly believe that performance is the norm for Vettel suggests one should not take that opinion seriously.

pokerman wrote:All that ignores the fact that Vettel hates to be beaten, it also kind of ignores Ricciardo not being signed by Ferrari for next year.

Everyone hates to be beaten. Ricciardo is too old to start in Ferrari, who obviously needs a young blood. Let's not forget that Binachi would have already some 3 seasons in Ferrari if there was not that unfortunate accident. Ferrari young driver program has taken a serous blow by his death.

Rockie wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

Battle Far wrote:Firstly, those who are worried about Leclerc not being allowed to race Vettel are deluded, give him 6 or so races and the only view of Leclerc that Vettel will have is of his gearbox...

Secondly, Ferrari didn't have to give Sauber any money to take Raikonnen, they've could just stop charging them for engines for next year and the year after...

Where do some of you guys derive such nonsense??

You speak as if Vettel is a scrub of sorts and Leclerc is this proven beast of a driver when in fact he's only bested Ericsson by a smidgen at this point and his performance against Ericsson is almost identical to Wherlin, yet Wherlin wasn't touted as being this all encompassing next super talent in F1. However Leclerc's praises are being sung to the moon and back almost to the level Vandoorne's praises were sung 2 seasons ago, and boy were many people wrong about him and his ability.

As I stated in regards to Vandoorne back then, why don't we wait and see how the kid does against a proven commodity and one of the all-time greats before we pass the torch.

The Ricciardo vs Vettel was a bit of an anomaly and if you were to pair them together again, I'm not so sure Ricciardo would best Vettel like that again, and rather, I'd expect Vettel to beat him consistently. Something about 2014 still doen't fit with Vettel just like 2011 doesn't fit with the rest of Hamilton's career.

Was Vettel just off?…

Did the car not suit him?…

Was he already with Ferrari in his head so not pushing to the limit?…

IDK, could be one of those things or all of them combined, but what I do know is that the same Vettel who won those 4 championships and all those races for Red Bull is still alive and well and doing phenomenally well while Ricciardo is finding it difficult to beat his young erratic teammate who though quick, is also not on Vettel's level.


How about we leave all this "next messiah" talk in regards to Leclerc for after the 2019 season is over? Only then will we have seen enough of him in a top car alongside a top elite talent to be able to truly assess his talent and ability.


Sorry but I live in South Florida which is the home of the Miami Dolphins and since we moved here in 1987, ALL you hear when a new talent is signed, be it a player, a coach, a general manage or anyone in a high profile position is the "THE SO & SO" Era and quite frankly the one time it was on its way to actually coming to fruition, their star QB didn't like the coach so they fired him. Outside of that, it has NEVER worked out!!!!

So for me, I cannot stand for people to definitively say what youngsters who have yet to prove themselves fully at the top level will do one way or another.
Triple A and Feeder leagues are a significant step down from the big leagues and the ONLY place you can see true separation is IN the big leagues.

While I agree with the notion that we shouldn't hype Leclerc too much until we actually know how good he is, I can't disagree more with what you've said about Daniel Ricciardo. So because you think that 2014 was an anomaly, we should just ignore the fact that Daniel bested Seb comprehensively that year? Not only that, you actually have the audacity to claim that you expect Vettel would beat him "consistently" if they were teamed together again. What's the point of having these races if people just ignore the results and make up their own conclusions?

The way that Daniel beat Seb doesn't suggest anomaly. It wasn't about crashes or mechanical failures. Daniel was just plain faster both on Saturdays and Sundays. That shouldn't be written off IMO.

Maybe just maybe, you need to check the dictionary for what an anomaly means.

Everyone is allowed their opinion, but to look at '14 and truly believe that performance is the norm for Vettel suggests one should not take that opinion seriously.

Oh Vettel did have a sub-par season. That much is for sure but the fact is that, even during a sub-par season, a driver is not slower than they normally are. They might make more mistakes or have more misfortune but they are not slower. Daniel was faster than Seb. It's not just that he was more consistent or made fewer mistakes. He was faster not to mention he showed superior racecraft.

If the new cars frustrated Vettel so much, why was he able to do well immediately at Ferrari the following year under the same regulations? I just think some people are inclined to make excuses for Vettel's performance in 2014 but there is no empirical reason to do so. From what we saw, Daniel had the edge (other than in wet weather). While I would stop short of claiming that Daniel would always beat Seb, I would NOT simply ignore what happened over the course of 19 races that year. That's not fair to Daniel is it?

Lt. Drebin wrote:

pokerman wrote:All that ignores the fact that Vettel hates to be beaten, it also kind of ignores Ricciardo not being signed by Ferrari for next year.

Everyone hates to be beaten. Ricciardo is too old to start in Ferrari, who obviously needs a young blood. Let's not forget that Binachi would have already some 3 seasons in Ferrari if there was not that unfortunate accident. Ferrari young driver program has taken a serous blow by his death.

I agree about Bianchi.The Ferrari young driver programme needed Charles promotion. It sends a very positive message to other Ferrari young drivers.

Red Bull have led the way in terms of handing opportunities to young drivers with a clear career path granted through Torro Rosso to Red Bull. That is inevitably going to play on the mind of a talented youngster when weighing up offers.

Had Ferrari not made this move then it would have sent out quite a clear message that Ferrari are reluctant to trust youth. Masa was the last young driver they blooded (although as you say Bianchi may well have been in the team by now).

Black_Flag_11 wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

moby wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:Okay, I'll be the party pooper here. I hate the fact that Kimi is going to Sauber. On a grid with too few seats available as it is, there's no way a guy who's pushing 40 and way past his prime should be driving for one of these smaller teams that are basically the only opportunities for young drivers to get into the sport. We already have a situation where promising youngsters like Ocon and George Russell are unsure if they will even be on the grid next year. To compound that by having someone use one of the available seats as a summer job during his retirement is just tragic IMO.

Have to agree with this, Kimi is a star but a star of the past, we now need to look to the stars of the future, Ocon deserves a drive surely?

Sorry Kimi but you are bed blocking.

If the young drivers are considered to be good enough, the old drivers would have no choice. It is not up to them to 'give up', they were not gifted a seat they had to fight for it, why do they owe young drivers what they did not have?

You're kidding yourself if you think this is about how "good" Kimi is. It's about money and nothing more.

Agree with the first post btw, seems like a waste of time for Kimi and waste of a seat with him moving to Sauber.

You've lost me on this one though, why is this about money? I'd imagine Kimi costs quite a bit more compared to a junior talent so I can't see that being it. I'm guessing Sauber are happy to have the experience of a WDC in the team.

Makes sense for Sauber but I don't see the point for Kimi and it's a bit of a shame for us IMO.

It's not waste of time for Kimi if he is getting paid well.