2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

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Huw
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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Huw »

Haas now level with Renault in the Constructors. A very nice race from Grosjean for 6th. Best of the rest. In my view, many pundits have failed to appreciate the pace of this guy. I very much hope we see him in the Haas in 2019.

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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by j man »

The booing from the tifosi was pathetic. It defies belief that Monza is held up as having the best atmosphere of the year. Watching Hamilton try give an interview under a hail of verbal abuse is an ugly scene.

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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by jimmyj »

Mayhem wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Max is driving crazy. He should got a pitlane penalty instead. He has not learned from SPA, there also he should have been given penalty until he learns :uhoh:
:lol: :lol: . Obviously you didn't see the memo.

He's the new face of F1. It'll take a lot to give that boy a decent kick up the bum.
Ill do it for free lol
Ha ha you guys made me laugh out loud. I heard a driver development guru say something like "we can't teach them to be fast, but if they're fast we can teach them how to drive smart" or something akin to that. I think Max will mature but it's painful to watch when he's obviously not there yet.

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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Mayhem »

Flash2k11 wrote:Deary me Vettel, says Hamilton left him no space.
:lol:
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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Mercedes-Benz »

Flash2k11 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:Mercedes is always strong here and especially Hamilton. Not sure why Ferrari had so much wear. Kimi had no chance sadly and Vettel had to pit twice as well. This was suppose to be easy 1 stop :?

Max is driving crazy. He should got a pitlane penalty instead. He has not learned from SPA, there also he should have been given penalty until he learns :uhoh:
Vettel had to pit twice because he changed tyres on lap 1. Kimi burnt his tyres trying to hammer home the undercut, and then had that issue compounded by being stuck behind Bottas for a long, long time.
Vettel also had blistering on his tyres than normal. I know Hamilton contact did not help. But I think Ferrari seems to have more problems here than Mercedes
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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Rosberg really loves Hamilton :D Saying a strange about of really positive things about him. It was nothing like this when they were team mates. He can say that because he knows that he beat him the last time he was against him.

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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by F1_Ernie »

Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:Mercedes is always strong here and especially Hamilton. Not sure why Ferrari had so much wear. Kimi had no chance sadly and Vettel had to pit twice as well. This was suppose to be easy 1 stop :?

Max is driving crazy. He should got a pitlane penalty instead. He has not learned from SPA, there also he should have been given penalty until he learns :uhoh:
Vettel had to pit twice because he changed tyres on lap 1. Kimi burnt his tyres trying to hammer home the undercut, and then had that issue compounded by being stuck behind Bottas for a long, long time.
Vettel also had blistering on his tyres than normal. I know Hamilton contact did not help. But I think Ferrari seems to have more problems here than Mercedes
Balance problems plus working his way through traffic and pitting on lap 1.
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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Lojik »

Mercedes-Benz wrote:Not sure why Ferrari had so much wear. :?

Max is driving crazy. He should got a pitlane penalty instead. He has not learned from SPA, there also he should have been given penalty until he learns :uhoh:
I think Kimim maybe cooked his tyres a little by trying to open the gap to Hamilton after his pit stop. As for Verstappen, what an immatuire reaction from him today, just plain dumb.

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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Caserole of Nonsense »

very disappointed.
My thoughts

I think vettel would probably have won had he been in kimis shoes. he probably would have pulled a 4-5s gap in first stint so wouldnt have been at risk to merc strategy and wouldnt have pitted when kimi did.

i think hamilton probably had more pace then kimi all race which is why ferrari were so keen to keep him ahead as he had just enough pace to stay ahead all else being equal. in hindsight it was too early but cant really blame ferrari for that. the softs just didnt like the pounding off the kerbs and kimi went too hard on them early.

without bottas he would have been 5-6s ahead and its possible he could have managed the pace better and just stayed out of drs at the end, but when you have an 8 lap undercut that is wasted by being held up, we saw what happens. I dont blame merc/bottas at all. its part of the game and kimi didnt seem to have the straight line speed of the merc hence struggled to pass.

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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by j man »

mikeyg123 wrote:Since the start of 2016 Vettel has simply made far too many mistakes for a top driver.
I don't think this has escaped Ferrari's notice either. That they seem to have elected not to build the team around him to the extent that they did for Schumacher and Alonso speaks volumes. I think the ultimate vote of confidence for Vettel will be if they retain Raikkonen for next year; I do wonder if they'll hire Leclerc to see if he can come in and beat Vettel like Ricciardo did.

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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Zoue »

FormulaFun wrote:
Toby. wrote:Lewis Hamilton wins the race.
> First: thanks Ferrari
> Second: thanks team
Well between the lot of them ferrari did their best to lose the race. Vettel bottled it at the start and then Ferrari pitted Kimi too soon for the 2nd stint because they hadn't done their research during practice on the performance/durability the soft tyre had to offer because they have this stupid thing about bringing only 1 set of harder tyres.
They have the best car yet they can't get the results.
I think they possibly got sold the dummy by Mercedes when their pit crew came out but neither Merc driver came in. That coincided exactly with Kimi making his stop and I can't help but feel they're connected. I'm just surprised not more was made of it at the time as I thought it was illegal to do that. But I imagine they feared the undercut as Hamilton looked quicker than Kimi up to that point. So yes, I'd say they brought Kimi in too soon but OTOH they were almost forced into it

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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by bourbon19 »

The race was interesting and fun, but these commentators make you rethink the whole thing.

That racing incident could have gone either way and Hamilton could have easily spun out instead of Vettel. Then these same talking heads would be saying Lewis was throwing his lead away. Sometimes it would be better if they just said nothing at all.

I also disagree it was a fantastic drive from Hamilton. He did a good job, but without Bottas helping him out and Kimi's failing tires, he would not have won. He took advantage of all of the above, and that is good, but not a fantastic drive, which he has had in the past when beating his competitors without wiping them out and on similarly fit tyres. I really should stop watching the post race.

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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Zoue »

j man wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Since the start of 2016 Vettel has simply made far too many mistakes for a top driver.
I don't think this has escaped Ferrari's notice either. That they seem to have elected not to build the team around him to the extent that they did for Schumacher and Alonso speaks volumes. I think the ultimate vote of confidence for Vettel will be if they retain Raikkonen for next year; I do wonder if they'll hire Leclerc to see if he can come in and beat Vettel like Ricciardo did.
On Dutch TV they were saying that it was rumoured the Ferrari mechanics want Leclerc to see how he performs against Vettel. Make of that what you will!

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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Jezza13 »

Mayhem wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Max is driving crazy. He should got a pitlane penalty instead. He has not learned from SPA, there also he should have been given penalty until he learns :uhoh:
:lol: :lol: . Obviously you didn't see the memo.

He's the new face of F1. It'll take a lot to give that boy a decent kick up the bum.
Ill do it for free lol
Line form to my left. Indian file, 1 kick only.
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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Mr-E »

So what about that dummy pit stop? Isn't that illegal?
Image

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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Zoue »

bourbon19 wrote:The race was interesting and fun, but these commentators make you rethink the whole thing.

That racing incident could have gone either way and Hamilton could have easily spun out instead of Vettel. Then these same talking heads would be saying Lewis was throwing his lead away. Sometimes it would be better if they just said nothing at all.

I also disagree it was a fantastic drive from Hamilton. He did a good job, but without Bottas helping him out and Kimi's failing tires, he would not have won. He took advantage of all of the above, and that is good, but not a fantastic drive, which he has had in the past when beating his competitors without wiping them out and on similarly fit tyres. I really should stop watching the post race.
:thumbup:

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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Flash2k11 »

Zoue wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Toby. wrote:Lewis Hamilton wins the race.
> First: thanks Ferrari
> Second: thanks team
Well between the lot of them ferrari did their best to lose the race. Vettel bottled it at the start and then Ferrari pitted Kimi too soon for the 2nd stint because they hadn't done their research during practice on the performance/durability the soft tyre had to offer because they have this stupid thing about bringing only 1 set of harder tyres.
They have the best car yet they can't get the results.
I think they possibly got sold the dummy by Mercedes when their pit crew came out but neither Merc driver came in. That coincided exactly with Kimi making his stop and I can't help but feel they're connected. I'm just surprised not more was made of it at the time as I thought it was illegal to do that. But I imagine they feared the undercut as Hamilton looked quicker than Kimi up to that point. So yes, I'd say they brought Kimi in too soon but OTOH they were almost forced into it
Its only really a dummy if they genuinely never intended on pitting Lewis. If the radio call is 'do whatever Kimi doesn't' then there is enough ambiguity there to skirt that rule I reckon. It's never been particularly well policed either.
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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Zoue »

Caserole of Nonsense wrote:very disappointed.
My thoughts

I think vettel would probably have won had he been in kimis shoes. he probably would have pulled a 4-5s gap in first stint so wouldnt have been at risk to merc strategy and wouldnt have pitted when kimi did.

i think hamilton probably had more pace then kimi all race which is why ferrari were so keen to keep him ahead as he had just enough pace to stay ahead all else being equal. in hindsight it was too early but cant really blame ferrari for that. the softs just didnt like the pounding off the kerbs and kimi went too hard on them early.

without bottas he would have been 5-6s ahead and its possible he could have managed the pace better and just stayed out of drs at the end, but when you have an 8 lap undercut that is wasted by being held up, we saw what happens. I dont blame merc/bottas at all. its part of the game and kimi didnt seem to have the straight line speed of the merc hence struggled to pass.
Yes, it was odd that the Ferraris looked a lot slower on the straights, contrary to all the pre-race claims. Even with DRS (and much fresher tyres) Kimi couldn't make any impact on Bottas

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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Jezza13 »

jimmyj wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Max is driving crazy. He should got a pitlane penalty instead. He has not learned from SPA, there also he should have been given penalty until he learns :uhoh:
:lol: :lol: . Obviously you didn't see the memo.

He's the new face of F1. It'll take a lot to give that boy a decent kick up the bum.
Ill do it for free lol
Ha ha you guys made me laugh out loud. I heard a driver development guru say something like "we can't teach them to be fast, but if they're fast we can teach them how to drive smart" or something akin to that. I think Max will mature but it's painful to watch when he's obviously not there yet.
He's had 4 yrs in F1. He's still saying he won't change his ways. Some never mature.

When are people going to give that excuse a rest?
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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Lojik »

Zoue wrote: I think they possibly got sold the dummy by Mercedes when their pit crew came out but neither Merc driver came in. That coincided exactly with Kimi making his stop and I can't help but feel they're connected. I'm just surprised not more was made of it at the time as I thought it was illegal to do that. But I imagine they feared the undercut as Hamilton looked quicker than Kimi up to that point. So yes, I'd say they brought Kimi in too soon but OTOH they were almost forced into it
Well one theory for that was that Hamilton was going to do the opposite to whatever Kimi did, so if Kimi stayed out he would have come in. Can't know for sure though.

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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Zoue »

Flash2k11 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Toby. wrote:Lewis Hamilton wins the race.
> First: thanks Ferrari
> Second: thanks team
Well between the lot of them ferrari did their best to lose the race. Vettel bottled it at the start and then Ferrari pitted Kimi too soon for the 2nd stint because they hadn't done their research during practice on the performance/durability the soft tyre had to offer because they have this stupid thing about bringing only 1 set of harder tyres.
They have the best car yet they can't get the results.
I think they possibly got sold the dummy by Mercedes when their pit crew came out but neither Merc driver came in. That coincided exactly with Kimi making his stop and I can't help but feel they're connected. I'm just surprised not more was made of it at the time as I thought it was illegal to do that. But I imagine they feared the undercut as Hamilton looked quicker than Kimi up to that point. So yes, I'd say they brought Kimi in too soon but OTOH they were almost forced into it
Its only really a dummy if they genuinely never intended on pitting Lewis. If the radio call is 'do whatever Kimi doesn't' then there is enough ambiguity there to skirt that rule I reckon. It's never been particularly well policed either.
I didn't think there was any ambiguity and I wasn't aware intent came into it. I just thought you're not allowed to send your crew out unless it is to pit a driver, precisely so as not to influence other teams to pit

edit: and they did it twice!
Last edited by Zoue on Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by j man »

Mr-E wrote:So what about that dummy pit stop? Isn't that illegal?
A bit of a grey area this one I think. Their intention was to pit if Kimi didn't, so they were genuinely planning a pitstop and needed to be ready. They did stay out in the pitlane long after Hamilton had gone past though, just to make Kimi's entry to his pit box more difficult. That was rather poor sportsmanship.

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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Flash2k11 »

Zoue wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:very disappointed.
My thoughts

I think vettel would probably have won had he been in kimis shoes. he probably would have pulled a 4-5s gap in first stint so wouldnt have been at risk to merc strategy and wouldnt have pitted when kimi did.

i think hamilton probably had more pace then kimi all race which is why ferrari were so keen to keep him ahead as he had just enough pace to stay ahead all else being equal. in hindsight it was too early but cant really blame ferrari for that. the softs just didnt like the pounding off the kerbs and kimi went too hard on them early.

without bottas he would have been 5-6s ahead and its possible he could have managed the pace better and just stayed out of drs at the end, but when you have an 8 lap undercut that is wasted by being held up, we saw what happens. I dont blame merc/bottas at all. its part of the game and kimi didnt seem to have the straight line speed of the merc hence struggled to pass.
Yes, it was odd that the Ferraris looked a lot slower on the straights, contrary to all the pre-race claims. Even with DRS (and much fresher tyres) Kimi couldn't make any impact on Bottas
...a bit like Hamilton not really making a dent in Raikonnen's advantage in the first stint? Calling it 'a lot slower' is being somewhat hyperbolic. It was mentioned on comms that the Merc was derating at the end of the straight, something that didn't seem to be affecting the Ferrari. Lewis only eventually caught Kimi because his tyres were absolutely done.

Edit: And I assume you meant Vettel? Pretty sure he had balance issues due to damage to boot.
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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Laz_T800 »

Lots of talk about luck. Without the SC Vettel would have been lucky to get a point today.

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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by IDrinkYourMilkshake »

How can a 4 times champion have such bad spatial awareness so often?!

Vettel just said, "Hamilton did not leave me room". Vettel had 1.5 car widths space!

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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Flash2k11 »

Zoue wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Toby. wrote:Lewis Hamilton wins the race.
> First: thanks Ferrari
> Second: thanks team
Well between the lot of them ferrari did their best to lose the race. Vettel bottled it at the start and then Ferrari pitted Kimi too soon for the 2nd stint because they hadn't done their research during practice on the performance/durability the soft tyre had to offer because they have this stupid thing about bringing only 1 set of harder tyres.
They have the best car yet they can't get the results.
I think they possibly got sold the dummy by Mercedes when their pit crew came out but neither Merc driver came in. That coincided exactly with Kimi making his stop and I can't help but feel they're connected. I'm just surprised not more was made of it at the time as I thought it was illegal to do that. But I imagine they feared the undercut as Hamilton looked quicker than Kimi up to that point. So yes, I'd say they brought Kimi in too soon but OTOH they were almost forced into it
Its only really a dummy if they genuinely never intended on pitting Lewis. If the radio call is 'do whatever Kimi doesn't' then there is enough ambiguity there to skirt that rule I reckon. It's never been particularly well policed either.
I didn't think there was any ambiguity and I wasn't aware intent came into it. I just thought you're not allowed to send your crew out unless it is to pit a driver, precisely so as not to influence other teams to pit

edit: and they did it twice!
...and they were going to pit Lewis, until Kimi pitted. Then they didn't. Really no need to be obtuse about something so inconsequential, Kimi didn't lose this race because Mercedes sent the pit crew out.
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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Toby. »

Why does the FIA not replace the "+5 seconds" penalty for contact, say between Verstappen and Bottas today, with a "concede the postion" call?
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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Zoue »

Flash2k11 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:very disappointed.
My thoughts

I think vettel would probably have won had he been in kimis shoes. he probably would have pulled a 4-5s gap in first stint so wouldnt have been at risk to merc strategy and wouldnt have pitted when kimi did.

i think hamilton probably had more pace then kimi all race which is why ferrari were so keen to keep him ahead as he had just enough pace to stay ahead all else being equal. in hindsight it was too early but cant really blame ferrari for that. the softs just didnt like the pounding off the kerbs and kimi went too hard on them early.

without bottas he would have been 5-6s ahead and its possible he could have managed the pace better and just stayed out of drs at the end, but when you have an 8 lap undercut that is wasted by being held up, we saw what happens. I dont blame merc/bottas at all. its part of the game and kimi didnt seem to have the straight line speed of the merc hence struggled to pass.
Yes, it was odd that the Ferraris looked a lot slower on the straights, contrary to all the pre-race claims. Even with DRS (and much fresher tyres) Kimi couldn't make any impact on Bottas
...a bit like Hamilton not really making a dent in Raikonnen's advantage in the first stint? Calling it 'a lot slower' is being somewhat hyperbolic. It was mentioned on comms that the Merc was derating at the end of the straight, something that didn't seem to be affecting the Ferrari. Lewis only eventually caught Kimi because his tyres were absolutely done.

Edit: And I assume you meant Vettel? Pretty sure he had balance issues due to damage to boot.
Well firstly Hamilton got closer to Kimi than Kimi got to Bottas (and made a couple of attempts), and secondly Kimi had much fresher tyres and you'd have thought that would help. Thirdly, Hamilton did eventually pass Kimi on the straight

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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by F1_Ernie »

Zoue wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:very disappointed.
My thoughts

I think vettel would probably have won had he been in kimis shoes. he probably would have pulled a 4-5s gap in first stint so wouldnt have been at risk to merc strategy and wouldnt have pitted when kimi did.

i think hamilton probably had more pace then kimi all race which is why ferrari were so keen to keep him ahead as he had just enough pace to stay ahead all else being equal. in hindsight it was too early but cant really blame ferrari for that. the softs just didnt like the pounding off the kerbs and kimi went too hard on them early.

without bottas he would have been 5-6s ahead and its possible he could have managed the pace better and just stayed out of drs at the end, but when you have an 8 lap undercut that is wasted by being held up, we saw what happens. I dont blame merc/bottas at all. its part of the game and kimi didnt seem to have the straight line speed of the merc hence struggled to pass.
Yes, it was odd that the Ferraris looked a lot slower on the straights, contrary to all the pre-race claims. Even with DRS (and much fresher tyres) Kimi couldn't make any impact on Bottas
Looked a lot slower on the straights :? Bottas couldn't get past Verstappen all race.
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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Mayhem »

Toby. wrote:Why does the FIA not replace the "+5 seconds" penalty for contact, say between Verstappen and Bottas today, with a "concede the postion" call?
Perhaps because max cut the chicane on there first encounter
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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Lojik »

I do think the Merc with Hamilton was faster than the Ferrari with Kimi today. To be able to stay within DRS for so many laps in the first stint for instance reminds me of how Vettel stayed so close to Hamilton at Spa in 2017, and I thought Vettel had the edge there too.

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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Zoue »

Flash2k11 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Well between the lot of them ferrari did their best to lose the race. Vettel bottled it at the start and then Ferrari pitted Kimi too soon for the 2nd stint because they hadn't done their research during practice on the performance/durability the soft tyre had to offer because they have this stupid thing about bringing only 1 set of harder tyres.
They have the best car yet they can't get the results.
I think they possibly got sold the dummy by Mercedes when their pit crew came out but neither Merc driver came in. That coincided exactly with Kimi making his stop and I can't help but feel they're connected. I'm just surprised not more was made of it at the time as I thought it was illegal to do that. But I imagine they feared the undercut as Hamilton looked quicker than Kimi up to that point. So yes, I'd say they brought Kimi in too soon but OTOH they were almost forced into it
Its only really a dummy if they genuinely never intended on pitting Lewis. If the radio call is 'do whatever Kimi doesn't' then there is enough ambiguity there to skirt that rule I reckon. It's never been particularly well policed either.
I didn't think there was any ambiguity and I wasn't aware intent came into it. I just thought you're not allowed to send your crew out unless it is to pit a driver, precisely so as not to influence other teams to pit

edit: and they did it twice!
...and they were going to pit Lewis, until Kimi pitted. Then they didn't. Really no need to be obtuse about something so inconsequential, Kimi didn't lose this race because Mercedes sent the pit crew out.
I'm not being obtuse about it. We're having a conversation about the legality of such a move and it's you that's decided to get personal about it, not me. And I was pointing out to the previous poster a possible reason why Kimi was pitted so early.

It's possible I'm wrong on the rule itself, of course. If so I'll happily concede the point. But if it is indeed against the rules then I think the question is legitimate.

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Flash2k11
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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Flash2k11 »

Zoue wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:very disappointed.
My thoughts

I think vettel would probably have won had he been in kimis shoes. he probably would have pulled a 4-5s gap in first stint so wouldnt have been at risk to merc strategy and wouldnt have pitted when kimi did.

i think hamilton probably had more pace then kimi all race which is why ferrari were so keen to keep him ahead as he had just enough pace to stay ahead all else being equal. in hindsight it was too early but cant really blame ferrari for that. the softs just didnt like the pounding off the kerbs and kimi went too hard on them early.

without bottas he would have been 5-6s ahead and its possible he could have managed the pace better and just stayed out of drs at the end, but when you have an 8 lap undercut that is wasted by being held up, we saw what happens. I dont blame merc/bottas at all. its part of the game and kimi didnt seem to have the straight line speed of the merc hence struggled to pass.
Yes, it was odd that the Ferraris looked a lot slower on the straights, contrary to all the pre-race claims. Even with DRS (and much fresher tyres) Kimi couldn't make any impact on Bottas
...a bit like Hamilton not really making a dent in Raikonnen's advantage in the first stint? Calling it 'a lot slower' is being somewhat hyperbolic. It was mentioned on comms that the Merc was derating at the end of the straight, something that didn't seem to be affecting the Ferrari. Lewis only eventually caught Kimi because his tyres were absolutely done.

Edit: And I assume you meant Vettel? Pretty sure he had balance issues due to damage to boot.
Well firstly Hamilton got closer to Kimi than Kimi got to Bottas (and made a couple of attempts), and secondly Kimi had much fresher tyres and you'd have thought that would help. Thirdly, Hamilton did eventually pass Kimi on the straight
Bottas was doing nothing but be ultra defensive, and Kimi hasn't been a decisive overtaker in donkeys. Kimi had also already burnt his tyres trying to gap Hamilton with the undercut long before he came across Bottas, something that was compounded by following him.

I really don't see how anyone can claim the Ferrari engine was slower on anything seen this weekend.
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Flash2k11
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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Flash2k11 »

Zoue wrote: I'm not being obtuse about it. We're having a conversation about the legality of such a move and it's you that's decided to get personal about it, not me. And I was pointing out to the previous poster a possible reason why Kimi was pitted so early.

It's possible I'm wrong on the rule itself, of course. If so I'll happily concede the point. But if it is indeed against the rules then I think the question is legitimate.
Personal? Not at all. It's just an odd hill to choose to die on when it had such little bearing in the grand scheme of the race.
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F1_Ernie
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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by F1_Ernie »

Lojik wrote:I do think the Merc with Hamilton was faster than the Ferrari with Kimi today. To be able to stay within DRS for so many laps in the first stint for instance reminds me of how Vettel stayed so close to Hamilton at Spa in 2017, and I thought Vettel had the edge there too.
That's the problem, when has Kimi been good on a Sunday?
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Zoue
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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Zoue »

Flash2k11 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:very disappointed.
My thoughts

I think vettel would probably have won had he been in kimis shoes. he probably would have pulled a 4-5s gap in first stint so wouldnt have been at risk to merc strategy and wouldnt have pitted when kimi did.

i think hamilton probably had more pace then kimi all race which is why ferrari were so keen to keep him ahead as he had just enough pace to stay ahead all else being equal. in hindsight it was too early but cant really blame ferrari for that. the softs just didnt like the pounding off the kerbs and kimi went too hard on them early.

without bottas he would have been 5-6s ahead and its possible he could have managed the pace better and just stayed out of drs at the end, but when you have an 8 lap undercut that is wasted by being held up, we saw what happens. I dont blame merc/bottas at all. its part of the game and kimi didnt seem to have the straight line speed of the merc hence struggled to pass.
Yes, it was odd that the Ferraris looked a lot slower on the straights, contrary to all the pre-race claims. Even with DRS (and much fresher tyres) Kimi couldn't make any impact on Bottas
...a bit like Hamilton not really making a dent in Raikonnen's advantage in the first stint? Calling it 'a lot slower' is being somewhat hyperbolic. It was mentioned on comms that the Merc was derating at the end of the straight, something that didn't seem to be affecting the Ferrari. Lewis only eventually caught Kimi because his tyres were absolutely done.

Edit: And I assume you meant Vettel? Pretty sure he had balance issues due to damage to boot.
Well firstly Hamilton got closer to Kimi than Kimi got to Bottas (and made a couple of attempts), and secondly Kimi had much fresher tyres and you'd have thought that would help. Thirdly, Hamilton did eventually pass Kimi on the straight
Bottas was doing nothing but be ultra defensive, and Kimi hasn't been a decisive overtaker in donkeys. Kimi had also already burnt his tyres trying to gap Hamilton with the undercut long before he came across Bottas, something that was compounded by following him.

I really don't see how anyone can claim the Ferrari engine was slower on anything seen this weekend.
In qualifying they did look quicker. But I really don't see how anyone would claim they were quicker in the race

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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by BlackMist »

Man Ferrari are doing everything they can to throw this championship. Mercedes who say they are fair to both drivers has shown many times that they are more than happy to sacrifice Botas to maximise Hamilton’s result.

I tell you if Jean Todt and Ross Brawn were in charge no way does Vettel toe Kimi to pole yesterday and no way Kimi challenges for anything more than P2 today.

What was Kimi doing at the start? Defended hard against Vettel which then opened his team mate up to be attack by his title rival. After all that Kimi got doubled team by Merc who used Botas to compromise him and ends up loosing the race.

Ferrari has got to sit down and decide if they want to win this championship or if they want to play nice to both drivers and give them equal chance to win races. Over at Mercedes, there is no way Botas is finishing ahead of Hamilton while they are both in the race and while the championship fight is on.

Amateur hour from Ferrari.

If I was in charge of that team, Vettel goes out for his second Q3 run behind Kimi and Kimi’s job today was to keep Hamilton behind him in P3.

I’m not a Kimi hater or anything. If Kimi was 17 points behind Hamilton and Vettel a full 3 races and a bit behind, no way would I allow Vettel to take piints off Kimi. Absolutely no way.
Last edited by BlackMist on Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Zoue
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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Zoue »

Flash2k11 wrote:
Zoue wrote: I'm not being obtuse about it. We're having a conversation about the legality of such a move and it's you that's decided to get personal about it, not me. And I was pointing out to the previous poster a possible reason why Kimi was pitted so early.

It's possible I'm wrong on the rule itself, of course. If so I'll happily concede the point. But if it is indeed against the rules then I think the question is legitimate.
Personal? Not at all. It's just an odd hill to choose to die on when it had such little bearing in the grand scheme of the race.
I don't know how you can say that, really. If Kimi did indeed pit because of the dummy, then it was actually a pivotal move in the race and contributed quite significantly to the win. Kimi had no tyres left at the end, so the longer he stayed out on the first stint the less likely that would have been the case

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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Flash2k11 »

Zoue wrote: In qualifying they did look quicker. But I really don't see how anyone would claim they were quicker in the race
I haven't claimed that they were in the race, it was you who claimed they were 'a lot slower' on the straights, which was only the case when Kimi's tyres were done, an issue i'd attribute to tyre saving and worse traction off of the last corner/first chicane rather than any engine deficit that manifested itself overnight after qualifying.
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Re: 2018 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Flash2k11 »

Zoue wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Zoue wrote: I'm not being obtuse about it. We're having a conversation about the legality of such a move and it's you that's decided to get personal about it, not me. And I was pointing out to the previous poster a possible reason why Kimi was pitted so early.

It's possible I'm wrong on the rule itself, of course. If so I'll happily concede the point. But if it is indeed against the rules then I think the question is legitimate.
Personal? Not at all. It's just an odd hill to choose to die on when it had such little bearing in the grand scheme of the race.
I don't know how you can say that, really. If Kimi did indeed pit because of the dummy, then it was actually a pivotal move in the race and contributed quite significantly to the win. Kimi had no tyres left at the end, so the longer he stayed out on the first stint the less likely that would have been the case
Kimi was coming in either way, he was in front. Hamilton had the choice to copy or not, he was told to do the opposite, but the Mercedes boys had to be ready in case Ferrari were doing the dummy.
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