Who do you think is lying? Alonso or Red Bull?

olly-44 · Post by **olly-44** » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:50 pm

So with both Red Bull and Alonso holding firm what they believe in...in what is a pretty petty argument that has no value or knock on effect

who do you think is LYING?

https://www.planetf1.com/news/row-escal ... -red-bull/

Jenson's Understeer · Post by **Jenson's Understeer** » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:53 pm

I voted for Alonso, but had it been an option I would've gone for 'both of them'.

I suspect that Red Bull have been more interested in Alonso than simply making one offer back in 2007, as Christian Horner has claimed. But I also think that Alonso himself is exaggerating the frequency and/or firmness of their interest.

kleefton · Post by **kleefton** » Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:16 pm

When Ricciardo announced he was leaving Redbull I thought Alonso should try his hardest to get in that seat. But now Horner and Marko have stated they don’t want him and now he is saying he declined their offer. I think Alonso is purposefully lying here because he couldn’t have liked what Horner said on the podcast. I also think that if Redbull didn’t have a driver of the caliber of Max they would be more keen to bring him in. But Alonso is fooling noone with this one. Just retire from F1 in peace already. Jeez....

Robot · Post by **Robot** » Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:18 pm

Jenson's Understeer wrote:I voted for Alonso, but had it been an option I would've gone for 'both of them'.

I suspect that Red Bull have been more interested in Alonso than simply making one offer back in 2007, as Christian Horner has claimed. But I also think that Alonso himself is exaggerating the frequency and/or firmness of their interest.

They made two minimum, 2007 and 2008.

I don't believe Horner at all, I don't think Fernando will be doing this in his last year knowing that he is lying and RB will answer him a proves him wrong.

Lotus49 · Post by **Lotus49** » Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:50 pm

Both. But I'd change lying to exaggerating what the discussions entailed.

Horner has admitted he spoke with Flavio this year and he didn't point out which direction the talks started from like he does with FOM. so Alonso's hardly pulling it out of his backside completely but at the same time Alonso knows full well what the difference is between formal talks/offers and informal talks feeling out any potential interest.

So yeah, both.

Flash2k11 · Post by **Flash2k11** » Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:58 pm

I think there is more than a whiff of 'well I never really loved her anyway' coming from both parties. I don't think I could trust Horner as far as I could throw him, and in my opinion Alonso has form for playing a bit fast and loose with the truth.

Neither side particularly covering themselves in glory for me.

Zoue · Post by **Zoue** » Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:35 pm

I think Alonso is lying, primarily because of his claims of all the other offers he's had from Red Bull over the years. Given their dominance of the sport in the early 2010s, I just can't fathom him not going there if he'd have had a sniff.

Ironically, I can see him rejecting them now they've taken on Honda. But the other claims make it hard for me to believe anything.

Lt. Drebin · Post by **Lt. Drebin** » Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:04 pm

Voted Alonso, but this is probably the case of individual understanding of what is "approach" and "interest".

KingVoid · Post by **KingVoid** » Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:15 pm

Alonso seriously claims that he had an offer from Red Bull in 2011 and rejected it.

Does that mean he was afraid of Vettel?

Blake · Post by **Blake** » Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:23 pm

Lotus49 wrote:Both. But I'd change lying to exaggerating what the discussions entailed.

Horner has admitted he spoke with Flavio this year and he didn't point out which direction the talks started from like he does with FOM. so Alonso's hardly pulling it out of his backside completely but at the same time Alonso knows full well what the difference is between formal talks/offers and informal talks feeling out any potential interest.

So yeah, both.

+1

sandman1347 · Post by **sandman1347** » Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:56 pm

It's funny; we had a thread about Alonso and Vettel and I think that this might help to flesh out some of the animosity. If there has been some kind of repeated communication over the years about him driving at RBR, he might have some bitterness about the fact that Vettel was there throughout their period of dominance instead of him. Especially since both parties seem to agree that Alonso was approached somewhere around 2007-2008. Had he taken them up on that, he might have 6+ championships right now...

pendulumeffect · Post by **pendulumeffect** » Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:13 pm

I think we all know the answer is BOTH!!!!

Quark · Post by **Quark** » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:31 pm

Alonso is lying. Why would RBR approach him in 2011 and 2013 when Vettel was dominating. And if they did, Alonso rejecting their offer would mean only one thing, that he is afraid of partnering with Seb.

Quark · Post by **Quark** » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:32 pm

KingVoid wrote:Alonso seriously claims that he had an offer from Red Bull in 2011 and rejected it.

Does that mean he was afraid of Vettel?

I wholeheartedly agree with your point. I think Alonso was afraid of teaming up with Vettel, if they indeed offered him a seat.

Noni · Post by **Noni** » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:42 pm

KingVoid wrote:Alonso seriously claims that he had an offer from Red Bull in 2011 and rejected it.

Does that mean he was afraid of Vettel?

I also would say both are to blame.

In regards to previous contracts, Alonso wanted that Ferrari seat and not Red Bull!.... Alonso is not afraid of anyone. He admitted had he looked into the crystal ball he would of chosen a different path.

moby · Post by **moby** » Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:57 pm

Alonso could well have been asked by someone who was not empowered to make the decision.
For instance Marco could have said to Flav over a coffee "is Alonso available? we are looking for a driver''.

Just to know if it was worth making an approach if Alonso's name was put forward in the meeting he was off to later.

Flav would then tell Alonso he was approached by Red Bull,,,,,,

pokerman · Post by **pokerman** » Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:27 pm

Lotus49 wrote:Both. But I'd change lying to exaggerating what the discussions entailed.

Horner has admitted he spoke with Flavio this year and he didn't point out which direction the talks started from like he does with FOM. so Alonso's hardly pulling it out of his backside completely but at the same time Alonso knows full well what the difference is between formal talks/offers and informal talks feeling out any potential interest.

So yeah, both.

I thought that Horner said that Flavio approached Red Bull?

pokerman · Post by **pokerman** » Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:39 pm

Noni wrote:
KingVoid wrote:Alonso seriously claims that he had an offer from Red Bull in 2011 and rejected it.

Does that mean he was afraid of Vettel?
I also would say both are to blame.

In regards to previous contracts, Alonso wanted that Ferrari seat and not Red Bull!.... Alonso is not afraid of anyone. He admitted had he looked into the crystal ball he would of chosen a different path.

When Alonso signed a new contract with Ferrari in 2011 he didn't need a crystal ball to see who had the best car, also when asked one year what he wanted for his birthday he said a Red Bull car yet he turned the drive down, what Alonso has said just lacks logic.

In 2011 and 2012 Hamilton tried to join Red Bull and got knocked back both times with Horner saying you don't have 2 roosters in the same hen house, yet Alonso got offered a Red Bull drive in 2011 and 2013, there so many holes in what Alonso is saying that it just can't be the truth.

pokerman · Post by **pokerman** » Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:41 pm

moby wrote:Alonso could well have been asked by someone who was not empowered to make the decision.
For instance Marco could have said to Flav over a coffee "is Alonso available? we are looking for a driver''.

Just to know if it was worth making an approach if Alonso's name was put forward in the meeting he was off to later.

Flav would then tell Alonso he was approached by Red Bull,,,,,,

Why did Red Bull need Alonso in 2011 and 2013 when they had Vettel and they were winning all the titles?

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:42 pm

Noni wrote:
KingVoid wrote:Alonso seriously claims that he had an offer from Red Bull in 2011 and rejected it.

Does that mean he was afraid of Vettel?
I also would say both are to blame.

In regards to previous contracts, Alonso wanted that Ferrari seat and not Red Bull!.... Alonso is not afraid of anyone. He admitted had he looked into the crystal ball he would of chosen a different path.

How would you reject a team in their most dominant years?

It defies logic, like saying any driver would have rejected a Mercedes drive to date outside of not wanting to race Hamilton, why would you reject the seat?

pokerman · Post by **pokerman** » Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:49 pm

Rockie wrote:
Noni wrote:
KingVoid wrote:Alonso seriously claims that he had an offer from Red Bull in 2011 and rejected it.

Does that mean he was afraid of Vettel?
I also would say both are to blame.

In regards to previous contracts, Alonso wanted that Ferrari seat and not Red Bull!.... Alonso is not afraid of anyone. He admitted had he looked into the crystal ball he would of chosen a different path.
How would you reject a team in their most dominant years?

It defies logic, like saying any driver would have rejected a Mercedes drive to date outside of not wanting to race Hamilton, why would you reject the seat?

Indeed and Alonso himself tried desperately to negotiate an exchange deal with Hamilton in 2014 after Hamilton fell out with Rosberg and was reported to be unhappy, to that matter he wanted away from Ferrari as early as 2013 but according to Alonso he turned down an offer from Red Bull in 2013, and then in regards to Red Bull why would they have made an offer to a driver who at that time was under contract?

Paolo_Lasardi · Post by **Paolo_Lasardi** » Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:52 pm

KingVoid wrote:Alonso seriously claims that he had an offer from Red Bull in 2011 and rejected it.

Does that mean he was afraid of Vettel?

Or that he was loyal to his team and believed in Ferrari?

KingVoid · Post by **KingVoid** » Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:58 pm

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
KingVoid wrote:Alonso seriously claims that he had an offer from Red Bull in 2011 and rejected it.

Does that mean he was afraid of Vettel?
Or that he was loyal to his team and believed in Ferrari?

I don't think Alonso is the kind of driver to be loyal to one team. He would rather just drive in the best car at all costs. Alonso's childhood hero was Senna (a McLaren man). I don't see a reason for him to be loyal to Ferrari.

By 2011 it was pretty obvious that the Red Bull + Newey duo had mastered these regulations and were going to be extremely difficult to beat.

The only reason I can see him turning down Red Bull was that he didn't want to fight another top driver on equal grounds anymore. He liked Massa as his lapdog.

Either that or he's lying about these Red Bull offers in 2011.

Johnson · Post by **Johnson** » Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:38 pm

I wouldn’t call Senna a Mclaren man, he was loyal to the best car. Mclaren had the best or at least equal best car (in Senna’s hands) 88-91. As soon as Williams dominated 1992, Senna wanted into Williams for 1993.

Alonso’s book, out December 2018 should be great. It seems he has no problem letting it all out which should make great reading. It’s why drivers should wait until a few years after leaving so they don’t mind spilling the juicy stuff - although it seems like Alonso won’t care about that.

KingVoid · Post by **KingVoid** » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:09 am

I called Senna a McLaren man because he enjoyed almost all the success in his career with McLaren, not because he was loyal to the team.

Anyway, it would make no sense for Alonso to stay loyal to Ferrari if Red Bull were indeed offering him the best car.

kleefton · Post by **kleefton** » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:56 am

Ok, so now Fernando is asking for an apology?

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13821 ... m-red-bull

He is sort of proving his critics right in that he is a trouble maker and all. He should just let it go already.

oz_karter · Post by **oz_karter** » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:04 am

Is it possible neither are lying?

What if Flavio lied to Alonso (and other teams) about interest from Red Bull to try to bump up Alonso’s stocks (not that they needed to be).

Or what if Helmut Marko or someone other than Horner in the Red Bull organisation was making offers to Alonso?

But if it came down to it, I would think Alonso is the one lying. He has more to lose than Red Bull over this.

Blake · Post by **Blake** » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:37 am

kleefton wrote:Ok, so now Fernando is asking for an apology?

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13821 ... m-red-bull

He is sort of proving his critics right in that he is a trouble maker and all. He should just let it go already.

Is he?

What if Alonso feels that RB is misrepresenting things in the media and feels that he is entitled to an apology? How is that proving he is a troublemaker?

I don't know the truth one way or the other, but if someone lies about you (as he appears to believe), why not demand an apology?

Jezza13 · Post by **Jezza13** » Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:25 am

Surely Alonso would have an email or text message to back up his claims or are these types of discussions usually kept strictly face to face ?

Pullrod · Post by **Pullrod** » Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:04 am

Alonso said in 2014 that he held all the options/cards and he could decide which team to drive for such is his influence/talent. We all saw he was LYING.

He loves POWER and you will be hard pressed to find a driver who clash so often or want a direct contact line with the decision makers in F1.
If he had even a small opportunity to land a top team drive, he blew it with his Indy "stunt" when he decided not to do the Monaco GP for some sort of ego trip to prove he is bigger than Hamilton/Vettel/F1.

Lauda, Wolff, Zetsche, Horner, Marko, Ecclestone, none of these guys were amused so I find it difficult to believe Alonso's version.

In another life, Alonso would be a manager because apparently just driving and closing his mouth is not enough for him.

Exediron · Post by **Exediron** » Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:16 am

Pullrod wrote:If he had even a small opportunity to land a top team drive, he blew it with his Indy "stunt" when he decided not to do the Monaco GP for some sort of ego trip to prove he is bigger than Hamilton/Vettel/F1.

Lauda, Wolff, Zetsche, Horner, Marko, Ecclestone, none of these guys were amused so I find it difficult to believe Alonso's version.

Find me some proof that any of those people had a problem with what Alonso did. The fans certainly didn't.

Pullrod · Post by **Pullrod** » Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:24 am

Exediron wrote:
Pullrod wrote:If he had even a small opportunity to land a top team drive, he blew it with his Indy "stunt" when he decided not to do the Monaco GP for some sort of ego trip to prove he is bigger than Hamilton/Vettel/F1.

Lauda, Wolff, Zetsche, Horner, Marko, Ecclestone, none of these guys were amused so I find it difficult to believe Alonso's version.
Find me some proof that any of those people had a problem with what Alonso did. The fans certainly didn't.

You always ask for proof. I just watch F1 with my eyes wide open and with some insider info.
The things I write today are same I did years ago. It is not that difficult.
Hopefully next year we will be back talking about racing and not hypothetical championships or reputation.

Paolo_Lasardi · Post by **Paolo_Lasardi** » Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:37 am

Pullrod wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Pullrod wrote:If he had even a small opportunity to land a top team drive, he blew it with his Indy "stunt" when he decided not to do the Monaco GP for some sort of ego trip to prove he is bigger than Hamilton/Vettel/F1.

Lauda, Wolff, Zetsche, Horner, Marko, Ecclestone, none of these guys were amused so I find it difficult to believe Alonso's version.
Find me some proof that any of those people had a problem with what Alonso did. The fans certainly didn't.
You always ask for proof. I just watch F1 with my eyes wide open and with some insider info.
The things I write today are same I did years ago. It is not that difficult.
Hopefully next year we will be back talking about racing and not hypothetical championships or reputation.

So, in other words, you made it up - just like so many other things you claimed, were called out and could not back up before.
Always the same here.

moby · Post by **moby** » Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:38 am

pokerman wrote:
moby wrote:Alonso could well have been asked by someone who was not empowered to make the decision.
For instance Marco could have said to Flav over a coffee "is Alonso available? we are looking for a driver''.

Just to know if it was worth making an approach if Alonso's name was put forward in the meeting he was off to later.

Flav would then tell Alonso he was approached by Red Bull,,,,,,
Why did Red Bull need Alonso in 2011 and 2013 when they had Vettel and they were winning all the titles?

I think this fracas is about now, 2018, rather than past events. He says 'to replace Ricciardo' rather than instead of Ricciardo

carvala · Post by **carvala** » Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:43 am

The question may be irrelevant. It seems that Fernando can put up a fight with any of his teams, even with his imaginary possible team. Anyways, he is the best car developer at the moment.

Paolo_Lasardi · Post by **Paolo_Lasardi** » Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:49 am

KingVoid wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
KingVoid wrote:Alonso seriously claims that he had an offer from Red Bull in 2011 and rejected it.

Does that mean he was afraid of Vettel?
Or that he was loyal to his team and believed in Ferrari?
I don't think Alonso is the kind of driver to be loyal to one team. He would rather just drive in the best car at all costs. Alonso's childhood hero was Senna (a McLaren man). I don't see a reason for him to be loyal to Ferrari.

By 2011 it was pretty obvious that the Red Bull + Newey duo had mastered these regulations and were going to be extremely difficult to beat.

The only reason I can see him turning down Red Bull was that he didn't want to fight another top driver on equal grounds anymore. He liked Massa as his lapdog.

Either that or he's lying about these Red Bull offers in 2011.

Given your general opinion about Alonso, I am not surprised that this is your interpretation. I merely wanted to point out that there is a straightforward alternative explanation, one that is actually quite plausible given how positive and full of praise Alonso was about Ferrari back then.

And, by the way, Massa started every season with equal status to Alonso. Every season, he was fully allowed to beat Alonso in the first half of the season. However, the truth is that Massa was outperformed by Alonso every season - to an extent that in the later parts of several seasons, Ferrari's wdc campaign became a one-horse race and naturally the team had to back the leading driver. I distictively disliked some of the methods but that's a different story.

Pullrod · Post by **Pullrod** » Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:52 am

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Pullrod wrote:If he had even a small opportunity to land a top team drive, he blew it with his Indy "stunt" when he decided not to do the Monaco GP for some sort of ego trip to prove he is bigger than Hamilton/Vettel/F1.

Lauda, Wolff, Zetsche, Horner, Marko, Ecclestone, none of these guys were amused so I find it difficult to believe Alonso's version.
Find me some proof that any of those people had a problem with what Alonso did. The fans certainly didn't.
You always ask for proof. I just watch F1 with my eyes wide open and with some insider info.
The things I write today are same I did years ago. It is not that difficult.
Hopefully next year we will be back talking about racing and not hypothetical championships or reputation.
So, in other words, you made it up - just like so many other things you claimed, were called out and could not back up before.
Always the same here.

Check my posts if you have time and you may call me Nostradamus

Pullrod · Post by **Pullrod** » Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:53 am

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
KingVoid wrote:Alonso seriously claims that he had an offer from Red Bull in 2011 and rejected it.

Does that mean he was afraid of Vettel?
Or that he was loyal to his team and believed in Ferrari?
I don't think Alonso is the kind of driver to be loyal to one team. He would rather just drive in the best car at all costs. Alonso's childhood hero was Senna (a McLaren man). I don't see a reason for him to be loyal to Ferrari.

By 2011 it was pretty obvious that the Red Bull + Newey duo had mastered these regulations and were going to be extremely difficult to beat.

The only reason I can see him turning down Red Bull was that he didn't want to fight another top driver on equal grounds anymore. He liked Massa as his lapdog.

Either that or he's lying about these Red Bull offers in 2011.
Given your general opinion about Alonso, I am not surprised that this is your interpretation. I merely wanted to point out that there is a straightforward alternative explanation, one that is actually quite plausible given how positive and full of praise Alonso was about Ferrari back then.

And, by the way, Massa started every season with equal status to Alonso. Every season, he was fully allowed to beat Alonso in the first half of the season. However, the truth is that Massa was outperformed by Alonso every season - to an extent that in the later parts of several seasons, Ferrari's wdc campaign became a one-horse race and naturally the team had to back the leading driver. I distictively disliked some of the methods but that's a different story.

Total BS. Only in 2010 and it lasted until the 2010 Chinese race.

robins13 · Post by **robins13** » Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:59 am

Exediron wrote:
Pullrod wrote:If he had even a small opportunity to land a top team drive, he blew it with his Indy "stunt" when he decided not to do the Monaco GP for some sort of ego trip to prove he is bigger than Hamilton/Vettel/F1.

Lauda, Wolff, Zetsche, Horner, Marko, Ecclestone, none of these guys were amused so I find it difficult to believe Alonso's version.
Find me some proof that any of those people had a problem with what Alonso did. The fans certainly didn't.

From Horner
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/12897 ... go-to-indy
From Toto
http://www.f1i.com/news/266795-alonso-i ... wolff.html
From Bernie
http://www.espn.in/f1/story/_/id/191571 ... appearance

Harpo · Post by **Harpo** » Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:12 am

Anytime Horner and Marko open their mouth, they sound as honest and trustworthy as Tony Blair talking about mass destruction weapons in Irak, and since a long time. So I tend to believe Alonso.