Racing Point Force India - Reborn from Ashesl!!!!

Lojik · Post by **Lojik** » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:40 pm

What reasons are there for other teams to to refuse to agree? Is it as simple as maybe getting rid of a competitor? Getting a bigger slice of the pie? or are there other genuinely non selfish reasons to try block this.

Paolo_Lasardi · Post by **Paolo_Lasardi** » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:42 pm

Lojik wrote:What reasons are there for other teams to to refuse to agree? Is it as simple as maybe getting rid of a competitor? Getting a bigger slice of the pie? or are there other genuinely non selfish reasons to try block this.

My guess is only the most selfish ones.

therock · Post by **therock** » Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:38 pm

PRFAN wrote:Perez now saying that it had to be done to save the team and the 400 workers in it. Also he states that in a weeks time things should start making sense for everybody as information on the team finances is revealed.

Also the money owed to him is from 2017, so has been more than patient about it. If what he says is true, then he could be the hero in this. He is looking for a change in leadership in the team, I wonder what information he has that lead him to believe this was the right thing to do.

Don't think Perez is completely honest here .. There is definitely something fishy going on behind the scene. Excerpt from interview below from Bob and Ocon.

http://www.euronews.com/2018/07/30/moto ... a-one-team

Perez told reporters at the weekend that he had acted to save the team, and 400 jobs, from the threat of being closed down in the face of a winding-up order scheduled for the London High Court last Wednesday.

Fernley suggested that was not an entirely accurate representation of what had happened.

"I know absolutely categorically that Vijay had some very sensible solutions to everything to be able to maintain the team going forward. This process obviously affected those," he said.

"I don't have enough information to tell you," he added when asked whether he felt there had been an orchestrated coup to remove Mallya.

"All I know is that from our point of view it was an unexpected move. And Vijay certainly wasn't expecting it," said Fernley.

INTERESTED SPECTATORS

The Briton said the winding-up order had been brought by the British tax authorities but was not as critical as had been made out.

"The winding-up order that was due to be heard, HMRC were dismissing that because all the money had been paid," he said, while acknowledging that it would only have been a deferral with another creditor ready to step in.

https://www.crash.net/f1/interview/9022 ... ways-great

Force India has been through some financial struggles this year - does that come into your mind when you’re thinking about next year and your future with the team?

EO: What I see is the same as I saw last year. To be honest, I don’t see any changes. We have new parts on the car. We had a new steering wheel a long, long time ago. This season we had as many new parts as we had last year. I heard all the situation, but for me, it’s not as bad.

j man · Post by **j man** » Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:34 pm

therock wrote:
PRFAN wrote:Perez now saying that it had to be done to save the team and the 400 workers in it. Also he states that in a weeks time things should start making sense for everybody as information on the team finances is revealed.

Also the money owed to him is from 2017, so has been more than patient about it. If what he says is true, then he could be the hero in this. He is looking for a change in leadership in the team, I wonder what information he has that lead him to believe this was the right thing to do.

Don't think Perez is completely honest here .. There is definitely something fishy going on behind the scene. Excerpt from interview below from Bob and Ocon.

http://www.euronews.com/2018/07/30/moto ... a-one-team

Perez told reporters at the weekend that he had acted to save the team, and 400 jobs, from the threat of being closed down in the face of a winding-up order scheduled for the London High Court last Wednesday.

Fernley suggested that was not an entirely accurate representation of what had happened.

"I know absolutely categorically that Vijay had some very sensible solutions to everything to be able to maintain the team going forward. This process obviously affected those," he said.

"I don't have enough information to tell you," he added when asked whether he felt there had been an orchestrated coup to remove Mallya.

"All I know is that from our point of view it was an unexpected move. And Vijay certainly wasn't expecting it," said Fernley.

INTERESTED SPECTATORS

The Briton said the winding-up order had been brought by the British tax authorities but was not as critical as had been made out.

"The winding-up order that was due to be heard, HMRC were dismissing that because all the money had been paid," he said, while acknowledging that it would only have been a deferral with another creditor ready to step in.

https://www.crash.net/f1/interview/9022 ... ways-great

Force India has been through some financial struggles this year - does that come into your mind when you’re thinking about next year and your future with the team?

EO: What I see is the same as I saw last year. To be honest, I don’t see any changes. We have new parts on the car. We had a new steering wheel a long, long time ago. This season we had as many new parts as we had last year. I heard all the situation, but for me, it’s not as bad.

Bear in mind that Fernley is a long-term associate of Vijay Mallya. I wouldn't necessarily consider him an impartial source here.

pc27b · Post by **pc27b** » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:11 pm

i wonder if the teams objecting to the sale will get extra money, if force india is forced to start over ?

Paolo_Lasardi · Post by **Paolo_Lasardi** » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:45 pm

j man wrote:
therock wrote:
PRFAN wrote:Perez now saying that it had to be done to save the team and the 400 workers in it. Also he states that in a weeks time things should start making sense for everybody as information on the team finances is revealed.

Also the money owed to him is from 2017, so has been more than patient about it. If what he says is true, then he could be the hero in this. He is looking for a change in leadership in the team, I wonder what information he has that lead him to believe this was the right thing to do.

Don't think Perez is completely honest here .. There is definitely something fishy going on behind the scene. Excerpt from interview below from Bob and Ocon.

http://www.euronews.com/2018/07/30/moto ... a-one-team

Perez told reporters at the weekend that he had acted to save the team, and 400 jobs, from the threat of being closed down in the face of a winding-up order scheduled for the London High Court last Wednesday.

Fernley suggested that was not an entirely accurate representation of what had happened.

"I know absolutely categorically that Vijay had some very sensible solutions to everything to be able to maintain the team going forward. This process obviously affected those," he said.

"I don't have enough information to tell you," he added when asked whether he felt there had been an orchestrated coup to remove Mallya.

"All I know is that from our point of view it was an unexpected move. And Vijay certainly wasn't expecting it," said Fernley.

INTERESTED SPECTATORS

The Briton said the winding-up order had been brought by the British tax authorities but was not as critical as had been made out.

"The winding-up order that was due to be heard, HMRC were dismissing that because all the money had been paid," he said, while acknowledging that it would only have been a deferral with another creditor ready to step in.

https://www.crash.net/f1/interview/9022 ... ways-great

Force India has been through some financial struggles this year - does that come into your mind when you’re thinking about next year and your future with the team?

EO: What I see is the same as I saw last year. To be honest, I don’t see any changes. We have new parts on the car. We had a new steering wheel a long, long time ago. This season we had as many new parts as we had last year. I heard all the situation, but for me, it’s not as bad.
Bear in mind that Fernley is a long-term associate of Vijay Mallya. I wouldn't necessarily consider him an impartial source here.

While I agree with you here, it still runs against the claim that Perez was asked by the team leadership to bring in administration or did so in agreement with the team's leadership. Here, it sounds like he did it against the team's leadership - which is something that other team leaderships will definitely note, if true.

I am also not convinced about the in-accordance-story because if the team leadership wanted to go into administration, it could have done so itself every day.

What I do not really see, though, is Perez' motivation/strategy in this affair.

Paolo_Lasardi · Post by **Paolo_Lasardi** » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:47 pm

pc27b wrote:i wonder if the teams objecting to the sale will get extra money, if force india is forced to start over ?

Yes.

moby · Post by **moby** » Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:14 pm

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pc27b wrote:i wonder if the teams objecting to the sale will get extra money, if force india is forced to start over ?
Yes.

There is also the slight chance that they are doing it to have some say in which offer gets/does not get made.

If the outstanding money plus 3 years new money are removed from the assets, it would dissuade some of the possibilities with the further possibility of them withdrawing their objection if the 'right' people offer, and Oh just incidentally get some kudos or deal already denied from LM.

UnlikeUday · Post by **UnlikeUday** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:07 am

Toto Wolff has said there are 5 potential bidders to buy Force India but he (on behalf of Mercedes) isn't one of them.
https://www.crash.net/f1/news/902310/1/ ... aims-wolff

Jezza13 · Post by **Jezza13** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:15 pm

Peter Windsor interviews William Storey on the dramas of getting his hands on FI.

Hmmmmm. 4 Billionaires back Rich Energy yet they've apparently only got assests of under £2m with £1/2m cash?

I'm no business man but those sums don't sound right to me.

Beleriand_K · Post by **Beleriand_K** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:19 pm

Lojik wrote:What reasons are there for other teams to to refuse to agree? Is it as simple as maybe getting rid of a competitor? Getting a bigger slice of the pie? or are there other genuinely non selfish reasons to try block this.

If Force India looses the prize money they should have had, it will be distributed among the rest of the teams. It makes a lot of sense for a team like Williams to take every cent they can get their hands on. Long term it might be better for them if Formula 1 don't loose yet another team, but they are not in a position that allows them to think long term.

When that is said, it is most likely that the richs teams will find some way of paying the poor teams to follow suit. And probably also swing Renault and McLaren around. It's a poker game, and with Force Indias survival in the interest of both the rich teams and Liberty Media I have no doubt that a solution will be found.

F1 MERCENARY · Post by **F1 MERCENARY** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:37 pm

Precisely. I find it to be in poor taste ESPECIALLY from the likes of Williams whom themselves have in the past asked Bernie for their prize money earlier than was supposed to be.
Given the current financial climate and shrinking field, I think this is a disservice to the sport and fanbase as a whole and only serves to quite possibly force the team to close its doors.

In these circumstances the FIA need to act alone without the input of other teams because the ONLY reason for them to veto the team being taken over and/or feature a name change
is so they can get their hands on the prize money that has been RIGHTFULLY EARNED BY FORCE INDIA, whatever new name they may dawn. The fact is that the team would be no different
than they are today if the name was changed. The exact same employees would be the ones working for the outfit so the team would be the same, outside perhaps a livery change.

I find it quite despicable for any team to vote against the sale of the team and I question their integrity, sportsmanship and true passion for the sport, and if the team disappears I will no
longer support the teams at fault. They need to THINK how if it was their team, those same employees who gave blood sweat and tears to help the team EARN the prize money would be
deserving and entitled to it.

Lojik · Post by **Lojik** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:41 pm

I have recently read another theory that suggests that the teams are objecting as some kind of protest against the alliances around Ferrari/Mercedes, and that they are concerned that FI will be turned into some kind of Merc B team.

UnlikeUday · Post by **UnlikeUday** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:50 pm

Lojik wrote:I have recently read another theory that suggests that the teams are objecting as some kind of protest against the alliances around Ferrari/Mercedes, and that they are concerned that FI will be turned into some kind of Merc B team.

Don't think a Mercedes/FI alliance is gonna happen as Toto Wolff has said he's not interested in buying the team.

Lotus49 · Post by **Lotus49** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:06 pm

Lojik wrote:I have recently read another theory that suggests that the teams are objecting as some kind of protest against the alliances around Ferrari/Mercedes, and that they are concerned that FI will be turned into some kind of Merc B team.

I think McLaren,Williams and Renault are getting increasingly annoyed at these types of close collaborations yeah. Horner has already said STR are getting a full Red Bull rear end next year which means they'll have one of the best rear ends for pretty much next to nothing and no work done on it. I think those 3 teams are trying to use this FI situation to get some rules changed around what you can give your engine customers or "B teams" etc..rather than preempting a Merc-FI hook up.

We won't sign this until you fix that, type of thing.

I'm torn on it, on one hand I can see why they'd be so annoyed as it's more competition from teams that haven't spent the money they have on development but they're still getting better stuff passed down and almost instant competitiveness from it while they have to take a lot of CFD and wind tunnel time up and spend big to match any parts passed down from top 3 teams.

Even a year old RB rear end is going to cost millions and take up a lot of cfd/wind tunnel time up for the others to try and match for example. CFD time the customers can now pump into areas they aren't getting the hand me downs. That makes a sizeable difference you would think.

On the other I think it's the most sensible route for the smaller teams to go down and I want more competition throughput the grid, the midfield battle this year is great so I like it.

Tough situation.

Flash2k11 · Post by **Flash2k11** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:16 pm

If TR are getting a full RB rear end, surely the front is going to have to be nigh on a copy too for it to work as a package? Getting dangerously close to customer chassis territory there.

pc27b · Post by **pc27b** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:36 pm

i think we can understand the teams wanting some of the FI money, but to try and stop the deal seems kind of counter productive to F1 as a whole
i think it is time for williams to bite the bullet and approach mercedes about a "b" team deal. certainly would be strange, but what real options do they have at this time to improve ? if they don't, someone else will.

F1 MERCENARY · Post by **F1 MERCENARY** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:34 pm

NO, I will never be understanding of wanting "IN" on money that another team has busted their hump TO EARN!!!

That's just plain greed and regardless of the "need" for cash some other teams may have, if they want more money… Do better and EARN IT!!!
The FIA needs to quit asking for "permission" from the rest of the teams to do certain things when they already know what is best for the sport as a whole.
Red Bull already has a B team and has for a decade already, and Ferrari have been scavenging off of Sauber (their on-again, off-again B team) for almost as long and no one has complained.

Williams is doing poorly because of the way they do things and I think Claire needs to allow Paddy Lowe to run the team his way and see what gives because the way the team has been run clearly isn't working.
Williams, McLaren and Renault ought to worry about improving THEIR car and team rather than worrying if Mercedes is going to assist in transforming Force India into a B team and trying to get as much of their money as they can.

My only hope is that FI survives. And in the event they do become a B team, everyone better watch out because they've been so close to the top guys that the slightest little breakthrough can allow them to fight further up the grid which means regular podiums and who knows what else.

Jezza13 · Post by **Jezza13** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:41 pm

UnlikeUday wrote:
Lojik wrote:I have recently read another theory that suggests that the teams are objecting as some kind of protest against the alliances around Ferrari/Mercedes, and that they are concerned that FI will be turned into some kind of Merc B team.
Don't think a Mercedes/FI alliance is gonna happen as Toto Wolff has said he's not interested in buying the team.

Not necessarily.

A potential buyer might have already had discussions with Merc and come to some collaboration agreement should the buyer be successful.

As far as I know Ferrari don't own Sauber but they have a technical & commercial agreement in place.

j man · Post by **j man** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:10 pm

Jezza13 wrote:Peter Windsor interviews William Storey on the dramas of getting his hands on FI.

Hmmmmm. 4 Billionaires back Rich Energy yet they've apparently only got assests of under £2m with £1/2m cash?

I'm no business man but those sums don't sound right to me.

So we're supposed to believe that some investors are willing to pour millions into a nascent drinks company trying to barge their way into an already saturated market? And their strategy is to buy an F1 team to use as a marketing vehicle? Sounds like one of the most risky investments I've ever heard of. I simply can't see this guy, as articulate and knowledgeable as he is, is anything more than either delusional or just a crook. Ailing companies with desperate sellers usually attract shysters like this, and it never ends well.

I would've loved to see him pitch this business plan on Dragon's Den, just to see him get laughed out of the room.

Lotus49 · Post by **Lotus49** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:11 pm

Flash2k11 wrote:If TR are getting a full RB rear end, surely the front is going to have to be nigh on a copy too for it to work as a package? Getting dangerously close to customer chassis territory there.

It's a good point. I went and double checked I hadn't got the wrong end of the stick and there's a chance I have lol, here's the quote..

Toro Rosso also stands to benefit as it knows well in advance of next season it will use the same engine brand and specification as its elder sibling. This will allow the two to collaborate more closely: they will have “as much synergy as possible” according to Horner.

“Toro Rosso will use a complete Red Bull Technology rear end next year,” he confirms. “Having a common power supplier only makes that easier.”

https://www.racefans.net/2018/07/16/why ... erview-f1/

He says RBT rear end rather than RB rear end so I guess it could just be made by the same people/same place but not a direct part from a Red Bull?

Jezza13 · Post by **Jezza13** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:23 pm

Lotus49 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:If TR are getting a full RB rear end, surely the front is going to have to be nigh on a copy too for it to work as a package? Getting dangerously close to customer chassis territory there.
It's a good point. I went and double checked I hadn't got the wrong end of the stick and there's a chance I have lol, here's the quote..

Toro Rosso also stands to benefit as it knows well in advance of next season it will use the same engine brand and specification as its elder sibling. This will allow the two to collaborate more closely: they will have “as much synergy as possible” according to Horner.

“Toro Rosso will use a complete Red Bull Technology rear end next year,” he confirms. “Having a common power supplier only makes that easier.”
https://www.racefans.net/2018/07/16/why ... erview-f1/

He says RBT rear end rather than RB rear end so I guess it could just be made by the same people/same place but not a direct part from a Red Bull?

I kinda asked this question in 2013

http://forum.planet-f1.com/viewtopic.ph ... lit=+newey

It's supposed to be illegal for 1 team to supply another with certain components, but is it illegal for an 3rd party entity to supply components to multiple teams?

If Newey & his design are employed by RBT, not RBR, is it then legal to supply both RB & TR with identical an chassis?

pc27b · Post by **pc27b** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:44 pm

F1 MERCENARY wrote:NO, I will never be understanding of wanting "IN" on money that another team has busted their hump TO EARN!!!

That's just plain greed and regardless of the "need" for cash some other teams may have, if they want more money… Do better and EARN IT!!!
The FIA needs to quit asking for "permission" from the rest of the teams to do certain things when they already know what is best for the sport as a whole.
Red Bull already has a B team and has for a decade already, and Ferrari have been scavenging off of Sauber (their on-again, off-again B team) for almost as long and no one has complained.

Williams is doing poorly because of the way they do things and I think Claire needs to allow Paddy Lowe to run the team his way and see what gives because the way the team has been run clearly isn't working.
Williams, McLaren and Renault ought to worry about improving THEIR car and team rather than worrying if Mercedes is going to assist in transforming Force India into a B team and trying to get as much of their money as they can.

My only hope is that FI survives. And in the event they do become a B team, everyone better watch out because they've been so close to the top guys that the slightest little breakthrough can allow them to fight further up the grid which means regular podiums and who knows what else.

i kind of think you understand exactly what i'm talking about. greed. greed and backstabbing is F1. doesn't make it right, and i don't think it's right either. just the way it is.

dompclarke · Post by **dompclarke** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:54 pm

F1 MERCENARY wrote:NO, I will never be understanding of wanting "IN" on money that another team has busted their hump TO EARN!!!

That's just plain greed and regardless of the "need" for cash some other teams may have, if they want more money… Do better and EARN IT!!!
The FIA needs to quit asking for "permission" from the rest of the teams to do certain things when they already know what is best for the sport as a whole.
Red Bull already has a B team and has for a decade already, and Ferrari have been scavenging off of Sauber (their on-again, off-again B team) for almost as long and no one has complained.

Williams is doing poorly because of the way they do things and I think Claire needs to allow Paddy Lowe to run the team his way and see what gives because the way the team has been run clearly isn't working.
Williams, McLaren and Renault ought to worry about improving THEIR car and team rather than worrying if Mercedes is going to assist in transforming Force India into a B team and trying to get as much of their money as they can.

My only hope is that FI survives. And in the event they do become a B team, everyone better watch out because they've been so close to the top guys that the slightest little breakthrough can allow them to fight further up the grid which means regular podiums and who knows what else.

Well if someone buys and renames the team it can be argued it isn't the same team and therefore hasn't earned the money...

I do think everyone should be pulling out the stops to make sure they survive, but there are other valid (if a little lacking in morals) views...

moby · Post by **moby** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:12 pm

Lotus49 wrote:
Lojik wrote:I have recently read another theory that suggests that the teams are objecting as some kind of protest against the alliances around Ferrari/Mercedes, and that they are concerned that FI will be turned into some kind of Merc B team.
I think McLaren,Williams and Renault are getting increasingly annoyed at these types of close collaborations yeah. Horner has already said STR are getting a full Red Bull rear end next year which means they'll have one of the best rear ends for pretty much next to nothing and no work done on it. I think those 3 teams are trying to use this FI situation to get some rules changed around what you can give your engine customers or "B teams" etc..rather than preempting a Merc-FI hook up.

We won't sign this until you fix that, type of thing.

I'm torn on it, on one hand I can see why they'd be so annoyed as it's more competition from teams that haven't spent the money they have on development but they're still getting better stuff passed down and almost instant competitiveness from it while they have to take a lot of CFD and wind tunnel time up and spend big to match any parts passed down from top 3 teams.

Even a year old RB rear end is going to cost millions and take up a lot of cfd/wind tunnel time up for the others to try and match for example. CFD time the customers can now pump into areas they aren't getting the hand me downs. That makes a sizeable difference you would think.

On the other I think it's the most sensible route for the smaller teams to go down and I want more competition throughput the grid, the midfield battle this year is great so I like it.

Tough situation.

Was just reading Jo's blog and he seems to think Williams will be going down the 'B' team path with Merc, starting with the gearbox/rear end next year.

Charles LeBrad · Post by **Charles LeBrad** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:49 pm

dompclarke wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:NO, I will never be understanding of wanting "IN" on money that another team has busted their hump TO EARN!!!

That's just plain greed and regardless of the "need" for cash some other teams may have, if they want more money… Do better and EARN IT!!!
The FIA needs to quit asking for "permission" from the rest of the teams to do certain things when they already know what is best for the sport as a whole.
Red Bull already has a B team and has for a decade already, and Ferrari have been scavenging off of Sauber (their on-again, off-again B team) for almost as long and no one has complained.

Williams is doing poorly because of the way they do things and I think Claire needs to allow Paddy Lowe to run the team his way and see what gives because the way the team has been run clearly isn't working.
Williams, McLaren and Renault ought to worry about improving THEIR car and team rather than worrying if Mercedes is going to assist in transforming Force India into a B team and trying to get as much of their money as they can.

My only hope is that FI survives. And in the event they do become a B team, everyone better watch out because they've been so close to the top guys that the slightest little breakthrough can allow them to fight further up the grid which means regular podiums and who knows what else.
Well if someone buys and renames the team it can be argued it isn't the same team and therefore hasn't earned the money...

I do think everyone should be pulling out the stops to make sure they survive, but there are other valid (if a little lacking in morals) views...

In my industry, it comes down to the activity of the Australian Business Number (ABN) or Australian Registered Body Number (ARBN), which is a number unique to that business.
In this case, If Stroll buys FI, takes ownership of the ABN, and decides to rename the team = Same team because it’s the same entity.
If Stroll buys FI, and decides to operate under his own ABN = New team because it’s a new entity.

I’m assuming there’s an EU or UK version of an ABN?

F1 MERCENARY · Post by **F1 MERCENARY** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:51 pm

dompclarke wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:NO, I will never be understanding of wanting "IN" on money that another team has busted their hump TO EARN!!!

That's just plain greed and regardless of the "need" for cash some other teams may have, if they want more money… Do better and EARN IT!!!
The FIA needs to quit asking for "permission" from the rest of the teams to do certain things when they already know what is best for the sport as a whole.
Red Bull already has a B team and has for a decade already, and Ferrari have been scavenging off of Sauber (their on-again, off-again B team) for almost as long and no one has complained.

Williams is doing poorly because of the way they do things and I think Claire needs to allow Paddy Lowe to run the team his way and see what gives because the way the team has been run clearly isn't working.
Williams, McLaren and Renault ought to worry about improving THEIR car and team rather than worrying if Mercedes is going to assist in transforming Force India into a B team and trying to get as much of their money as they can.

My only hope is that FI survives. And in the event they do become a B team, everyone better watch out because they've been so close to the top guys that the slightest little breakthrough can allow them to fight further up the grid which means regular podiums and who knows what else.
Well if someone buys and renames the team it can be argued it isn't the same team and therefore hasn't earned the money...

I do think everyone should be pulling out the stops to make sure they survive, but there are other valid (if a little lacking in morals) views...

Nonsense… It most definitely cannot be argued logically that it's not the same company.
Tax returns alone would LEGALLY deem any such company as the same because regardless of new ownership, the monies owed prior to being sold are still the responsibility of any such entity,
and the taxman overrules all.

In the real world, when you buy a Business (that's truly what all sports entities are) you purchase it entirely INCLUDING all accounts payable AND RECEIVABLES.
In this case the prize money is one such receivable.

UnlikeUday · Post by **UnlikeUday** » Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:41 am

The 5 potential bidders for the team are:

1. Canadian billionaire Lawrence Stroll, whose son Lance drives for Williams.
2. An American consortium involving Indycar team owner Michael Andretti and Pieter Rossi, the father of former F1 driver Alexander Rossi, who now races for Andretti.
3. A second US consortium involving Jeff Moorad, the former boss of the Arizona Diamondbacks and San Diego Padres baseball teams, who now runs a sports investment-management company.
4. Russian billionaire Dmitry Mazepin, whose son Nikita races in GP3 and is Force India's development driver.
5. Soft drink company Rich Energy, said to have West Ham owners David Sullivan and David Gold behind it.

UnlikeUday · Post by **UnlikeUday** » Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:54 am

As per Joe Saward's blog, the total amount of debt on Force India is 'only' $43 million.

Exediron · Post by **Exediron** » Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:29 am

UnlikeUday wrote:2. An American consortium involving Indycar team owner Michael Andretti and Pieter Rossi, the father of former F1 driver Alexander Rossi, who now races for Andretti.

This would be by far the best option, IMO, if Force India has to go under. Getting the Andretti name back on the F1 grid under a competitive guise would be great.

JN23 · Post by **JN23** » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:25 am

UnlikeUday wrote: 5. Soft drink company Rich Energy, said to have West Ham owners David Sullivan and David Gold behind it.

Poor Force India if Sullivan and Gold end up owning them.

dizlexik · Post by **dizlexik** » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:27 am

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:NO, I will never be understanding of wanting "IN" on money that another team has busted their hump TO EARN!!!

That's just plain greed and regardless of the "need" for cash some other teams may have, if they want more money… Do better and EARN IT!!!
The FIA needs to quit asking for "permission" from the rest of the teams to do certain things when they already know what is best for the sport as a whole.
Red Bull already has a B team and has for a decade already, and Ferrari have been scavenging off of Sauber (their on-again, off-again B team) for almost as long and no one has complained.

Williams is doing poorly because of the way they do things and I think Claire needs to allow Paddy Lowe to run the team his way and see what gives because the way the team has been run clearly isn't working.
Williams, McLaren and Renault ought to worry about improving THEIR car and team rather than worrying if Mercedes is going to assist in transforming Force India into a B team and trying to get as much of their money as they can.

My only hope is that FI survives. And in the event they do become a B team, everyone better watch out because they've been so close to the top guys that the slightest little breakthrough can allow them to fight further up the grid which means regular podiums and who knows what else.
Well if someone buys and renames the team it can be argued it isn't the same team and therefore hasn't earned the money...

I do think everyone should be pulling out the stops to make sure they survive, but there are other valid (if a little lacking in morals) views...
Nonsense… It most definitely cannot be argued logically that it's not the same company.
Tax returns alone would LEGALLY deem any such company as the same because regardless of new ownership, the monies owed prior to being sold are still the responsibility of any such entity,
and the taxman overrules all.

In the real world, when you buy a Business (that's truly what all sports entities are) you purchase it entirely INCLUDING all accounts payable AND RECEIVABLES.
In this case the prize money is one such receivable.

This is all about agreements between commercial rights holders and F1 teams and they define what constitute new team.

UnlikeUday · Post by **UnlikeUday** » Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:39 am

An interesting read into the puzzling Force India predicament:

https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/01/wha ... in-future/

RaggedMan · Post by **RaggedMan** » Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:52 pm

Exediron wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:2. An American consortium involving Indycar team owner Michael Andretti and Pieter Rossi, the father of former F1 driver Alexander Rossi, who now races for Andretti.
This would be by far the best option, IMO, if Force India has to go under. Getting the Andretti name back on the F1 grid under a competitive guise would be great.

I agree that this is the best outcome for the team. The other American interest though sounds like a bad idea. Having someone who claims the Padres and the D-Backs on their resume doesn't fill me with hope of good guardianship.

cm97 · Post by **cm97** » Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:59 pm

Let’s not forgot that Force India were reportedly the team which was making it difficult for Manor to reach the grid in 2015 as they wanted their prize money.
In the poetic words of F. Alonso... “Karma”.

moby · Post by **moby** » Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:03 pm

Exediron wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:2. An American consortium involving Indycar team owner Michael Andretti and Pieter Rossi, the father of former F1 driver Alexander Rossi, who now races for Andretti.
This would be by far the best option, IMO, if Force India has to go under. Getting the Andretti name back on the F1 grid under a competitive guise would be great.

Force Indianapolis

Post by **P-F1 Mod** » Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:28 pm

moby wrote: Force Indianapolis

Ha. My understanding of how the rules worked back when Spyker and Midland were buying the team was that there had to be a transitional year with the name. So Midland owned Jordan in 2005 but only renamed it in 06. Spyker had to retain the MF1 when they then took over for the last 3 [?] races of the year so could rename it Spyker for 07. In 08 I think Mallya wanted a new start, though I could be wrong and he took ownership during 07. Not totally sure there.

But, assuming those rules hold true still, that name change could come without any loss of prize money. Call the team from Spa onwards, Sahara Force India Napolis. Then just ditch Sahara - only a title sponsor, after all - and remove the space before Napolis. Sorted!

I realise this is only one of 5 potential buyers but I might be disappointed now if this doesn't happen.

Paolo_Lasardi · Post by **Paolo_Lasardi** » Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:08 pm

UnlikeUday wrote:The 5 potential bidders for the team are:

1. Canadian billionaire Lawrence Stroll, whose son Lance drives for Williams.
2. An American consortium involving Indycar team owner Michael Andretti and Pieter Rossi, the father of former F1 driver Alexander Rossi, who now races for Andretti.
3. A second US consortium involving Jeff Moorad, the former boss of the Arizona Diamondbacks and San Diego Padres baseball teams, who now runs a sports investment-management company.
4. Russian billionaire Dmitry Mazepin, whose son Nikita races in GP3 and is Force India's development driver.
5. Soft drink company Rich Energy, said to have West Ham owners David Sullivan and David Gold behind it.

So (1), (2) and (4) are by fathers of wannabe F1 racing drivers (maybe (2) not so much - I don't know). How sustainable is their interest beyond the career of their medium talented sons?
(By the way, what happened to the rumoured Latifi family's bid? Perhaps, they are involved in (3))?

Flash2k11 · Post by **Flash2k11** » Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:30 pm

https://www.motorsportweek.com/joesaward/id/00285

Fairly decent round up of the situation as Saward sees it, makes sense.

Exediron · Post by **Exediron** » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:14 pm

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:The 5 potential bidders for the team are:

1. Canadian billionaire Lawrence Stroll, whose son Lance drives for Williams.
2. An American consortium involving Indycar team owner Michael Andretti and Pieter Rossi, the father of former F1 driver Alexander Rossi, who now races for Andretti.
3. A second US consortium involving Jeff Moorad, the former boss of the Arizona Diamondbacks and San Diego Padres baseball teams, who now runs a sports investment-management company.
4. Russian billionaire Dmitry Mazepin, whose son Nikita races in GP3 and is Force India's development driver.
5. Soft drink company Rich Energy, said to have West Ham owners David Sullivan and David Gold behind it.
So (1), (2) and (4) are by fathers of wannabe F1 racing drivers (maybe (2) not so much - I don't know). How sustainable is their interest beyond the career of their medium talented sons?
(By the way, what happened to the rumoured Latifi family's bid? Perhaps, they are involved in (3))?

I wouldn't classify Rossi as being in the same talent group as Stroll or Mazepin, on the strength of what we've seen out of those drivers. As an IndyCar front-runner, I'd say he deserves another chance at F1 (and he was quite clearly better than his Manor teammate during his 5-race run in F1).

That aside, Andretti would definitely be the main driving force behind that push, I would think. I'm not aware of Pieter Rossi having the financial means to finance a team just for his son.