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mikeyg123 wrote:

Rockie wrote:
That's the racing line you don't have to he wasn't defending, if not anyone can put their nose anywhere.

Even if it was, which it wasn't then so what? You can't just blindly follow the racing line and ignore a car alongside you.

I'm going to guess that Kimi did it because it's Max (who has done a lot worse to him before - i.e. Spa 2016) and because others have gotten away with it many times.

Gumption wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Rockie wrote:
That's the racing line you don't have to he wasn't defending, if not anyone can put their nose anywhere.

Even if it was, which it wasn't then so what? You can't just blindly follow the racing line and ignore a car alongside you.

I'm going to guess that Kimi did it because it's Max (who has done a lot worse to him before - i.e. Spa 2016) and because others have gotten away with it many times.

Yeah sure, I'm not crying for a penalty.

Found the Ricciardo hold up on Hamilton - https://streamable.com/5n4tl

The pit entry is on the apex to the corner, leaves Hamilton nowhere to go except onto marbles, the rest we know.

Johnson wrote:Found the Ricciardo hold up on Hamilton - https://streamable.com/5n4tl

The pit entry is on the apex to the corner, leaves Hamilton nowhere to go except onto marbles, the rest we know.

yeah it was a couple of corners before the overtake and Vettel still had to make quite a ballsy pass. Hamilton should have defended the inside but he didn't. I don't see how that can be blamed on Ricciardo

Why does anybody need to be blamed?

Yes it was a nice pass but as soon as Vettel emerges from the last turn that close he is favourite to pass Hamilton, either into T3 or into T4 if Hamilton defends the inside to T3. You can't be that close to the car in front at the last corner under normal conditions due to dirty air through the twist S3. That is why I was so curious to how Vettel was so close.

Hamilton was luckless, he was even ahead of DR on the DRS detection zone by about 1 metre, otherwise he would have had DRS and probably not got passed. Basically a perfect storm to lose that place.

Johnson wrote:Found the Ricciardo hold up on Hamilton - https://streamable.com/5n4tl

The pit entry is on the apex to the corner, leaves Hamilton nowhere to go except onto marbles, the rest we know.

Good find.

It's also noticeable that Vettel pushes Hamilton off track on the entry to the corner.

Zoue wrote:

Johnson wrote:Found the Ricciardo hold up on Hamilton - https://streamable.com/5n4tl

The pit entry is on the apex to the corner, leaves Hamilton nowhere to go except onto marbles, the rest we know.

yeah it was a couple of corners before the overtake and Vettel still had to make quite a ballsy pass. Hamilton should have defended the inside but he didn't. I don't see how that can be blamed on Ricciardo

It was as "ballsy" as Hamilton's pass on Vettel at Barcelona last year.

Actually, if Hamilton fully covered the inside line and then squeezed Vettel under braking to prevent the switchback (like Vettel did to him), then he probably would have retained his position. It was simply not good racecraft from Hamilton to allow Vettel the inside.

davidheath461 wrote:

Zoue wrote:

Johnson wrote:Found the Ricciardo hold up on Hamilton - https://streamable.com/5n4tl

The pit entry is on the apex to the corner, leaves Hamilton nowhere to go except onto marbles, the rest we know.

yeah it was a couple of corners before the overtake and Vettel still had to make quite a ballsy pass. Hamilton should have defended the inside but he didn't. I don't see how that can be blamed on Ricciardo

It was as "ballsy" as Hamilton's pass on Vettel at Barcelona last year.

Not even close. Hamilton was already more than a car length ahead before the braking zone.

Here Vettel was still behind at the braking zone.

davidheath461 wrote:

Zoue wrote:

Johnson wrote:Found the Ricciardo hold up on Hamilton - https://streamable.com/5n4tl

The pit entry is on the apex to the corner, leaves Hamilton nowhere to go except onto marbles, the rest we know.

yeah it was a couple of corners before the overtake and Vettel still had to make quite a ballsy pass. Hamilton should have defended the inside but he didn't. I don't see how that can be blamed on Ricciardo

It was as "ballsy" as Hamilton's pass on Vettel at Barcelona last year.

the hilarity is confusing me a bit? Let me in on the joke?

KingVoid wrote:Actually, if Hamilton fully covered the inside line and then squeezed Vettel under braking to prevent the switchback (like Vettel did to him), then he probably would have retained his position. It was simply not good racecraft from Hamilton to allow Vettel the inside.

If he covered the inside, he would have got passed on the cut back going down to turn 3. Exactly what happened to Ricciardo (who's tyres were gone) when he tried to defend the inside against Kimi.

Zoue wrote:

davidheath461 wrote:

Zoue wrote:

Johnson wrote:Found the Ricciardo hold up on Hamilton - https://streamable.com/5n4tl

The pit entry is on the apex to the corner, leaves Hamilton nowhere to go except onto marbles, the rest we know.

yeah it was a couple of corners before the overtake and Vettel still had to make quite a ballsy pass. Hamilton should have defended the inside but he didn't. I don't see how that can be blamed on Ricciardo

It was as "ballsy" as Hamilton's pass on Vettel at Barcelona last year.

the hilarity is confusing me a bit? Let me in on the joke?

Don't worry Zoue, it's not as "hilarious" as Hamilton being voted DOTD.

KingVoid wrote:

davidheath461 wrote:

Zoue wrote:

Johnson wrote:Found the Ricciardo hold up on Hamilton - https://streamable.com/5n4tl

The pit entry is on the apex to the corner, leaves Hamilton nowhere to go except onto marbles, the rest we know.

yeah it was a couple of corners before the overtake and Vettel still had to make quite a ballsy pass. Hamilton should have defended the inside but he didn't. I don't see how that can be blamed on Ricciardo

It was as "ballsy" as Hamilton's pass on Vettel at Barcelona last year.

Not even close. Hamilton was already more than a car length ahead before the braking zone.

Here Vettel was still behind at the braking zone.

I guess that would be because Hamilton decided to take the shortest route when passing Vettel at Barcelona.

Not sure why Vettel didn't do the same here and just breeze past the outside of Hamilton - he had the speed.

Johnson wrote:Found the Ricciardo hold up on Hamilton - https://streamable.com/5n4tl

The pit entry is on the apex to the corner, leaves Hamilton nowhere to go except onto marbles, the rest we know.

Yeah this happened a few times in the race, Vettel got held up into there at one point too and it put Hamilton back into DRS range. Its a clumsy system in general really I wonder if there isn't a way for them to change the pit entry to be a separate road before T10 perhaps?

davidheath461 wrote:If he covered the inside, he would have got passed on the cut back going down to turn 3. Exactly what happened to Ricciardo (who's tyres were gone) when he tried to defend the inside against Kimi.

Different situations with different cars.

Hamilton’s tyres were not gone at the time. His pace was still good for at least a couple more laps. Also, Mercedes has 6 kph more top speed than Red Bull which would have made Lewis’ job defending into turn 4 easier. Hamilton also locked up into turn 1 which compromised him onto the straight. Vettel wouldn’t have been so close if Lewis took turn 1 better.

It was perfectly possible for Lewis to maintain position. His mistake in turn 1 and failure to cover the inside line cost him.

KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton’s tyres were not gone at the time.

Go listen to his team radio. His rears were already overheating well before Vettel passed him.

His pace was still good for at least a couple more laps. Also, Mercedes has 6 kph more top speed than Red Bull which would have made Lewis’ job defending into turn 4 easier.

Not really. You need great traction from turn 3 in order to defend into turn 4. Not possible when his rear tyres were gone.

Hamilton also locked up into turn 1 which compromised him onto the straight. Vettel wouldn’t have been so close if Lewis took turn 1 better.

It was perfectly possible for Lewis to maintain position. His mistake in turn 1 and failure to cover the inside line cost him.

Perhaps you should watch the video that Johnson posted. He got stuck behind Ricciardo (which allowed Vettel to close) and then ended up without DRS. He was a sitting duck going into turn 3. Vettel was going to pass him on the inside or the outside. Vettel's pass only looked more "ballsy" because he went for the more difficult option (just as he did with Bottas at Spain last year).

Looking at the numbers in more detail, the decision to not pit Hamilton looks even more ridiculous. The time to pit under the VSC was a net 8 seconds, the time to pit under normal conditions was 20. This is one of the biggest margins of any track between a VSC stop and a normal one.

If nobody else pitted, Hamilton would have come out just ahead of Kimi Raikkonen and rejoined in P2, at very worst P3 right behind Kimi and about 3 seconds behind race leader Verstappen.

Mercedes seem to have no clue how long the net loss under a VSC is, the third time they screwed a race lead by miscalculating this. They had 30-50 seconds to make this call too.

davidheath461 wrote:Go listen to his team radio. His rears were already overheating well before Vettel passed him.

That does not mean his tyres were gone. His lap times were still competitive at the time and he was clearly quicker than Ricciardo.

Not really. You need great traction from turn 3 in order to defend into turn 4. Not possible when his rear tyres were gone.

His rear tyres weren’t gone though. His tyres still looked in good shape when Vettel passed him, and his lap times weren’t bad at all. Ricciardo’s tyres the lap before were in much worse shape.

Perhaps you should watch the video that Johnson posted. He got stuck behind Ricciardo (which allowed Vettel to close) and then ended up without DRS. He was a sitting duck going into turn 3. Vettel was going to pass him on the inside or the outside. Vettel's pass only looked more "ballsy" because he went for the more difficult option (just as he did with Bottas at Spain last year).

Hamilton would have been at least another car length up the road if he didn’t make a mistake at turn 1. He didn’t even bother the apex.

I’m currently looking for the onboard of Verstappen vs Maldonado at Austria 2015. Verstappen had less tyres than Maldonado and a slower car, and yet he defended brilliantly at turn 3 and then turn 4 by positioning his car perfectly. It was also easier to follow back then. That was textbook defending.

Hamilton simply failed to cover the inside line properly, just like at Bahrain earlier this season against Verstappen.

davidheath461 wrote:

Zoue wrote:

davidheath461 wrote:

Zoue wrote:

Johnson wrote:Found the Ricciardo hold up on Hamilton - https://streamable.com/5n4tl

The pit entry is on the apex to the corner, leaves Hamilton nowhere to go except onto marbles, the rest we know.

yeah it was a couple of corners before the overtake and Vettel still had to make quite a ballsy pass. Hamilton should have defended the inside but he didn't. I don't see how that can be blamed on Ricciardo

It was as "ballsy" as Hamilton's pass on Vettel at Barcelona last year.

the hilarity is confusing me a bit? Let me in on the joke?

Don't worry Zoue, it's not as "hilarious" as Hamilton being voted DOTD.

What is this, “my dad is bigger than your dad?” Are you twelve?

What I get from that video is that Hamilton gets a pretty OK exit from the last turn so Vettel doesn't get a look in, but then misses the T1 apex by some distance - wonder if that wasn't at least as much of a factor in getting overtaken as the hold-up from Ricciardo.

Who knows if he had nailed T1 then Vettel might not have drawn alongside, and then maybe he could have kept it for the next straight given the following distances would slowly return to normal.

It was a poor performance overall by the Mercedes Team - not for the first time this year. Who was the guy hanging around Wolff's right shoulder during the Race? Seemed like he might be someone from upper management?

Lewis misses that turn one apex by a fair way which compromises his run up the hill. Pretty opportunistic from Vettel.