2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

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pokerman
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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

Johnson wrote:Does anybody know how Vettel was able to pass Hamilton? Lewis did a 1m 8.5, then the next lap he did a 1m 9.9 at which point Vettel was all over him and overtook. Did he make a mistake or get held up Ricciardo who peeled into the pits?

It also appears Vettel was held up that lap too though, he did 1m 8.7 then a 1m 9.2 but still closed enough to overtake.
As Ricciardo pitted it caused Hamilton to drive off line onto the marbles which allowed Vettel to get a run on him.
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Rockie
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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Rockie »

What was most surprising, was Mercedes having to urge Hamilton on bit embarrassing.

You take it on and do your best but sulking and wanting to throw in the towel in instantly was just wrong, to the extent that the strategist had to come on the blower to encourage him.

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Mort Canard
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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Mort Canard »

According to Toto Wolff: "We had a hydraulic leak that was linked to the steering on Valtteri. And we had a drop in fuel pressure on Lewis’s car which was linked to the fuel system. This is the current understanding. So no regrets on introducing the engine.”

I am wondering if either Valtteri or Lewis is going to have to take grid place penalties at Silverstone to replace components damaged in today's race.
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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by dompclarke »

Mort Canard wrote:According to Toto Wolff: "We had a hydraulic leak that was linked to the steering on Valtteri. And we had a drop in fuel pressure on Lewis’s car which was linked to the fuel system. This is the current understanding. So no regrets on introducing the engine.”

I am wondering if either Valtteri or Lewis is going to have to take grid place penalties at Silverstone to replace components damaged in today's race.
If Bottas problem was hydraulic or gearbox it's very unlikely to lead to a penalty. Hamilton on the other hand has more potential, but I doubt it if it truly was fuel pressure

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mds
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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mds »

Zoue wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
PRFAN wrote:
Zoue wrote:Just seen a replay and what I didn't realise was that Max bumped Kimi which helped him make his overtake. Naughty. I'm surprised the stewards didn't do anything

I think they did evaluated the contact, no further action they said. Just racing
yeah I'm not looking for a retrospective penalty, but Max hit Kimi and forced a tank slapper, which enabled him to pass. I'm surprised the pass was allowed to stand at the time.
Kimi went off track on the exit of turn 3 and then forced Max off the track in the following straight.
he squeezed him, true, but didn't force him off the track. I think actually punting another driver is a bit more serious?
I just checked this from Max's onboard - I think Kimi did in fact force Max off the track.

Below video, 1:32 onwards - and particularly 1:34 where Kimi steers right just a bit and makes Max go off-track. If there was a car's width of space left, it must have been very very close, but I don't think there was.


Image
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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Exediron »

mds wrote:I just checked this from Max's onboard - I think Kimi did in fact force Max off the track.

Below video, 1:32 onwards - and particularly 1:34 where Kimi steers right just a bit and makes Max go off-track. If there was a car's width of space left, it must have been very very close, but I don't think there was.
My initial take on the whole sequence was that Max hit Kimi to force him out of the way, and the overtake should have been penalized. After viewing onboards and seeing some different angles, my opinion has shifted to being that Kimi was racing Max just as hard as Max was racing him, and I don't think either driver has room to complain. If you want to drive like Max, you have to accept that Max might beat you at driving like Max. I'd say Max was far enough alongside that he was entitled to some space at the apex of turn #6, and Kimi didn't leave him enough.
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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by F1_Ernie »

Rockie wrote:What was most surprising, was Mercedes having to urge Hamilton on bit embarrassing.

You take it on and do your best but sulking and wanting to throw in the towel in instantly was just wrong, to the extent that the strategist had to come on the blower to encourage him.
You should just be happy Hamilton got a dnf than using every opportunity to put him down, we get it you don’t like him.
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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Lojik »

F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:What was most surprising, was Mercedes having to urge Hamilton on bit embarrassing.

You take it on and do your best but sulking and wanting to throw in the towel in instantly was just wrong, to the extent that the strategist had to come on the blower to encourage him.
You should just be happy Hamilton got a dnf than using every opportunity to put him down, we get it you don’t like him.
Sadly, just like the driver briefings, I don't think a percentage of the viewing audience is mature enough to listen to team radio. I don't think the broadcasters help matters, they like to cherry pick things that generally make the drivers look bad, for instance the editing of Alonso's team radio in the last race. All the drivers are prone to getting heated in the middle of a race, and it's all too easy to jump on them for every little thing, especially if you already have a predisposition against a particular driver. I'm sure all the little Peter Perfects who like to critisise so much would be straight back to garage to buy chocolates and flowers and hugs for the team when things go to hell.

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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by oz_karter »

F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:What was most surprising, was Mercedes having to urge Hamilton on bit embarrassing.

You take it on and do your best but sulking and wanting to throw in the towel in instantly was just wrong, to the extent that the strategist had to come on the blower to encourage him.
You should just be happy Hamilton got a dnf than using every opportunity to put him down, we get it you don’t like him.
Rockie isn't wrong though.

Lewis needed some odd coaching there to keep him in the race.

"We trust and believe in you"... it's like talking to a child...

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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Zoue »

mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
PRFAN wrote:
I think they did evaluated the contact, no further action they said. Just racing
yeah I'm not looking for a retrospective penalty, but Max hit Kimi and forced a tank slapper, which enabled him to pass. I'm surprised the pass was allowed to stand at the time.
Kimi went off track on the exit of turn 3 and then forced Max off the track in the following straight.
he squeezed him, true, but didn't force him off the track. I think actually punting another driver is a bit more serious?
I just checked this from Max's onboard - I think Kimi did in fact force Max off the track.

Below video, 1:32 onwards - and particularly 1:34 where Kimi steers right just a bit and makes Max go off-track. If there was a car's width of space left, it must have been very very close, but I don't think there was.


Image
yes looking at that video it does seem that Kimi squeezed a bit too much on the corner and max was already sufficiently alongside to warrant giving a bit more room to :thumbup:

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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Zoue »

Johnson wrote:Does anybody know how Vettel was able to pass Hamilton? Lewis did a 1m 8.5, then the next lap he did a 1m 9.9 at which point Vettel was all over him and overtook. Did he make a mistake or get held up Ricciardo who peeled into the pits?

It also appears Vettel was held up that lap too though, he did 1m 8.7 then a 1m 9.2 but still closed enough to overtake.
I don't know how much you can read into the lap times, tbh. I commented during the race that they seemed to go up and down for all the drivers, even when in clear air. It was really rather strange and some of the variances were quite significant.

I think Hamilton just wasn't concentrating. He was complaining a lot on the radio at the time about his position and I think he lost focus. He hounded Vettel for several laps after so it wasn't down to pace issues

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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Lojik »

Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:Does anybody know how Vettel was able to pass Hamilton? Lewis did a 1m 8.5, then the next lap he did a 1m 9.9 at which point Vettel was all over him and overtook. Did he make a mistake or get held up Ricciardo who peeled into the pits?

It also appears Vettel was held up that lap too though, he did 1m 8.7 then a 1m 9.2 but still closed enough to overtake.
I don't know how much you can read into the lap times, tbh. I commented during the race that they seemed to go up and down for all the drivers, even when in clear air. It was really rather strange and some of the variances were quite significant.

I think Hamilton just wasn't concentrating. He was complaining a lot on the radio at the time about his position and I think he lost focus. He hounded Vettel for several laps after so it wasn't down to pace issues
Martin Brundle on commentary said Hamilton got held up between turn 7 and 8 as Ricciardo pitted putting Vettel into DRS, but maybe he is just biased and is covering for him :uhoh:

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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Rockie »

F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:What was most surprising, was Mercedes having to urge Hamilton on bit embarrassing.

You take it on and do your best but sulking and wanting to throw in the towel in instantly was just wrong, to the extent that the strategist had to come on the blower to encourage him.
You should just be happy Hamilton got a dnf than using every opportunity to put him down, we get it you don’t like him.
Unlike fans of Hamilton never happy to see any driver DNF or advocate for more punishment for the driver.

On Sat enough of this group was happy to see Vettel given a 3 place grid penalty.

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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Rockie »

oz_karter wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:What was most surprising, was Mercedes having to urge Hamilton on bit embarrassing.

You take it on and do your best but sulking and wanting to throw in the towel in instantly was just wrong, to the extent that the strategist had to come on the blower to encourage him.
You should just be happy Hamilton got a dnf than using every opportunity to put him down, we get it you don’t like him.
Rockie isn't wrong though.

Lewis needed some odd coaching there to keep him in the race.

"We trust and believe in you"... it's like talking to a child...
I just can't understand it, if that had been Vettel the same guys who claim Vettel is not top tier will be out here saying "He only wins whilst out front in clear air".

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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Rockie »

Zoue wrote: yes looking at that video it does seem that Kimi squeezed a bit too much on the corner and max was already sufficiently alongside to warrant giving a bit more room to :thumbup:
But that's the racing line though Max was going into a disappearing gap, you can see Hamilton in front.

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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Fiki »

Zoue wrote:yes looking at that video it does seem that Kimi squeezed a bit too much on the corner and max was already sufficiently alongside to warrant giving a bit more room to :thumbup:
Remember that "rule" Whiting explained last year about being ahead at the apex? According to that, Verstappen did not have the right to run Räikkönen off the track, nor presumably to hit him or expect more room.
I know my record/CD/MP3 appears to be stuck, but I still haven't come across any documentation for that rule. But if Whiting explains it is actually in use, then...
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Johnson
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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Johnson »

Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:Does anybody know how Vettel was able to pass Hamilton? Lewis did a 1m 8.5, then the next lap he did a 1m 9.9 at which point Vettel was all over him and overtook. Did he make a mistake or get held up Ricciardo who peeled into the pits?

It also appears Vettel was held up that lap too though, he did 1m 8.7 then a 1m 9.2 but still closed enough to overtake.
I don't know how much you can read into the lap times, tbh. I commented during the race that they seemed to go up and down for all the drivers, even when in clear air. It was really rather strange and some of the variances were quite significant.

I think Hamilton just wasn't concentrating. He was complaining a lot on the radio at the time about his position and I think he lost focus. He hounded Vettel for several laps after so it wasn't down to pace issues
Is that anything other than a guess? Lap times fluctuated a bit, but nothing like 1.4 seconds. Hamilton did his slowest lap of the entire race that lap and Ricciardo directly ahead of them did an in lap 2 seconds slower than expected so something clearly happened. I have read some reports that Ricciardo ran wide and then Hamilton got held up directly behind him through S3 dirty air and lifted as Ricciardo pitted but still not seen the footage.

Drivers do not lose 1.5 seconds through "not concentrating".

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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Zoue »

Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:Does anybody know how Vettel was able to pass Hamilton? Lewis did a 1m 8.5, then the next lap he did a 1m 9.9 at which point Vettel was all over him and overtook. Did he make a mistake or get held up Ricciardo who peeled into the pits?

It also appears Vettel was held up that lap too though, he did 1m 8.7 then a 1m 9.2 but still closed enough to overtake.
I don't know how much you can read into the lap times, tbh. I commented during the race that they seemed to go up and down for all the drivers, even when in clear air. It was really rather strange and some of the variances were quite significant.

I think Hamilton just wasn't concentrating. He was complaining a lot on the radio at the time about his position and I think he lost focus. He hounded Vettel for several laps after so it wasn't down to pace issues
Is that anything other than a guess? Lap times fluctuated a bit, but nothing like 1.4 seconds. Hamilton did his slowest lap of the entire race that lap and Ricciardo directly ahead of them did an in lap 2 seconds slower than expected so something clearly happened. I have read some reports that Ricciardo ran wide and then Hamilton got held up directly behind him through S3 dirty air and lifted as Ricciardo pitted but still not seen the footage.

Drivers do not lose 1.5 seconds through "not concentrating".
Well Hamilton didn't lose 1.5s either, so don't see the relevance. Times before and after getting mugged:

1:09.063
1:08.521
1:09.880
1:09.875
1:08.648

the anomaly there was the single sub-1:09s lap, not the slower ones where he was overtaken. Maybe Ricciardo pitting did unsettle him, but that doesn't explain the two consecutive slow laps?

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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Johnson »

His normal laps are 8.5-9.0, the hold up lap is 9.9 (so he was atleast 1 second slower than anything else) and the overtake lap is 9.9 (you always lose time being overtaken).

The same for Vettel.

8.6
8.5
8.7
8.7
9.3 (the slow lap for Ricciardo, Hamilton and Vettel)
8.3 (the lap he overtook Hamiltn)

So Vettel too lost about 0.7-0.8 off what he was doing too on that very same lap, concentration too? or did something happen?

Its pretty obvious something occurred to slow all three of them down. Unless they all happened to do one really slow lap all at the same time which seems unlikely.

It just seems odd that there isn't any footage of it.

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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Zoue »

Johnson wrote:His normal laps are 8.5-9.0, the hold up lap is 9.9 (so he was atleast 1 second slower than anything else) and the overtake lap is 9.9 (you always lose time being overtaken).

The same for Vettel.

8.6
8.5
8.7
8.7
9.3 (the slow lap for Ricciardo, Hamilton and Vettel)
8.3 (the lap he overtook Hamiltn)

So Vettel too lost about 0.7-0.8 off what he was doing too on that very same lap, concentration too? or did something happen?

Its pretty obvious something occurred to slow all three of them down. Unless they all happened to do one really slow lap all at the same time which seems unlikely.

It just seems odd that there isn't any footage of it.
well if something happened to all three, only one capitalized on it, which still suggests that Hamilton was caught out, rather than that he had a problem

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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by F1_Ernie »

Rockie wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:What was most surprising, was Mercedes having to urge Hamilton on bit embarrassing.

You take it on and do your best but sulking and wanting to throw in the towel in instantly was just wrong, to the extent that the strategist had to come on the blower to encourage him.
You should just be happy Hamilton got a dnf than using every opportunity to put him down, we get it you don’t like him.
Unlike fans of Hamilton never happy to see any driver DNF or advocate for more punishment for the driver.

On Sat enough of this group was happy to see Vettel given a 3 place grid penalty.
Some Hamilton fans are probably happy when certain drivers get a dnf. I'm just saying you should be happy Hamilton got a dnf but your still trying to find something to put Hamilton down with at every opputunity, it gets boring.

I wasn't even around Saturday or Sunday so don't even know what was written.
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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mds »

Rockie wrote:
Zoue wrote: yes looking at that video it does seem that Kimi squeezed a bit too much on the corner and max was already sufficiently alongside to warrant giving a bit more room to :thumbup:
But that's the racing line though Max was going into a disappearing gap, you can see Hamilton in front.
If Curva Grande is treated like a straight in order to define whether space has to be left, then surely this here is too. There was no way that gap was always going to disappear, there is no single line through there, Max was entitled to a car's width of space.

Now whether that actually should compensate for Max's nudge later on, that's another question. On the whole, both were just a tad bit naughty.
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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Johnson »

Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:His normal laps are 8.5-9.0, the hold up lap is 9.9 (so he was atleast 1 second slower than anything else) and the overtake lap is 9.9 (you always lose time being overtaken).

The same for Vettel.

8.6
8.5
8.7
8.7
9.3 (the slow lap for Ricciardo, Hamilton and Vettel)
8.3 (the lap he overtook Hamiltn)

So Vettel too lost about 0.7-0.8 off what he was doing too on that very same lap, concentration too? or did something happen?

Its pretty obvious something occurred to slow all three of them down. Unless they all happened to do one really slow lap all at the same time which seems unlikely.

It just seems odd that there isn't any footage of it.
well if something happened to all three, only one capitalized on it, which still suggests that Hamilton was caught out, rather than that he had a problem
Indeed, but how can you capitalise on something if you are already ahead? You can only lose.
Hamilton didn't have a problem he got held up in S3 and especially by Ricciardo lifting off in turn 7 to make pit entry, which in turn makes Hamilton lift, allowing Vettel to get closer than he ever would have under normal racing conditions.

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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Lojik »

Johnson wrote:
Indeed, but how can you capitalise on something if you are already ahead? You can only lose.
Hamilton didn't have a problem he got held up in S3 and especially by Ricciardo lifting off in turn 7 to make pit entry, which in turn makes Hamilton lift, allowing Vettel to get closer than he ever would have under normal racing conditions.
And Ricciardo was pitting, not entirely sure what he was supposed to capitalise on?

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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Rockie »

mds wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Zoue wrote: yes looking at that video it does seem that Kimi squeezed a bit too much on the corner and max was already sufficiently alongside to warrant giving a bit more room to :thumbup:
But that's the racing line though Max was going into a disappearing gap, you can see Hamilton in front.
If Curva Grande is treated like a straight in order to define whether space has to be left, then surely this here is too. There was no way that gap was always going to disappear, there is no single line through there, Max was entitled to a car's width of space.

Now whether that actually should compensate for Max's nudge later on, that's another question. On the whole, both were just a tad bit naughty.
The trajectory they were going shows that.

Raikkonen would have had to change course to leave the space.

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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Rockie wrote:
mds wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Zoue wrote: yes looking at that video it does seem that Kimi squeezed a bit too much on the corner and max was already sufficiently alongside to warrant giving a bit more room to :thumbup:
But that's the racing line though Max was going into a disappearing gap, you can see Hamilton in front.
If Curva Grande is treated like a straight in order to define whether space has to be left, then surely this here is too. There was no way that gap was always going to disappear, there is no single line through there, Max was entitled to a car's width of space.

Now whether that actually should compensate for Max's nudge later on, that's another question. On the whole, both were just a tad bit naughty.
The trajectory they were going shows that.

Raikkonen would have had to change course to leave the space.
So what? He has a car alongside him and has to leave that car space. He can't just ignore it because he wants the piece of tarmac already occupied.

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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Siao7 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mds wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Zoue wrote: yes looking at that video it does seem that Kimi squeezed a bit too much on the corner and max was already sufficiently alongside to warrant giving a bit more room to :thumbup:
But that's the racing line though Max was going into a disappearing gap, you can see Hamilton in front.
If Curva Grande is treated like a straight in order to define whether space has to be left, then surely this here is too. There was no way that gap was always going to disappear, there is no single line through there, Max was entitled to a car's width of space.

Now whether that actually should compensate for Max's nudge later on, that's another question. On the whole, both were just a tad bit naughty.
The trajectory they were going shows that.

Raikkonen would have had to change course to leave the space.
So what? He has a car alongside him and has to leave that car space. He can't just ignore it because he wants the piece of tarmac already occupied.
+1

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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Johnson »

They have relaxed the rules on overtaking quite a lot, Vettels move on Hamilton would have been illegal just a few seasons ago. Crowding a car off track on corner entry used to be illegal, exit was always ok but entry not.

https://imgur.com/a/XGKDT1X

Its the same for Kimi incident though he did crowd Max out, so maybe a case of two wrongs cancelling one another out

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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Mercedes-Benz »

Kimi was always ahead so he was simply taking his preferred line. But having a contact with driver ahead and gaining advantage over it to pass can easily result in penalty. The only reason why MV was let go is because it was a racing incident and not intentional. Vettel move was little desperate. It could have resulted in puncture but he got away with it
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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Zoue »

Johnson wrote:They have relaxed the rules on overtaking quite a lot, Vettels move on Hamilton would have been illegal just a few seasons ago. Crowding a car off track on corner entry used to be illegal, exit was always ok but entry not.

https://imgur.com/a/XGKDT1X

Its the same for Kimi incident though he did crowd Max out, so maybe a case of two wrongs cancelling one another out
A lot of things from the past are different. But they play to today's rules, so I don't see the relevance?

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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mds »

Rockie wrote:
mds wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Zoue wrote: yes looking at that video it does seem that Kimi squeezed a bit too much on the corner and max was already sufficiently alongside to warrant giving a bit more room to :thumbup:
But that's the racing line though Max was going into a disappearing gap, you can see Hamilton in front.
If Curva Grande is treated like a straight in order to define whether space has to be left, then surely this here is too. There was no way that gap was always going to disappear, there is no single line through there, Max was entitled to a car's width of space.

Now whether that actually should compensate for Max's nudge later on, that's another question. On the whole, both were just a tad bit naughty.
The trajectory they were going shows that.

Raikkonen would have had to change course to leave the space.
No he actually changed course at one point to go from a direction that would have left Max the space, to one that made Max pull off-track a bit. Some "racing line" by the way, from off-track on the left to entirely on the right, with Max enough alongside the entire stretch.

Either way, there's still this case of having to leave space.
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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Johnson »

Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:They have relaxed the rules on overtaking quite a lot, Vettels move on Hamilton would have been illegal just a few seasons ago. Crowding a car off track on corner entry used to be illegal, exit was always ok but entry not.

https://imgur.com/a/XGKDT1X

Its the same for Kimi incident though he did crowd Max out, so maybe a case of two wrongs cancelling one another out
A lot of things from the past are different. But they play to today's rules, so I don't see the relevance?
The relevance is, what are exactly are todays rules and when can you crowd a car off track?

Straight?
Corner entry?
Corner exit?

If crowding is allowed mid straight then Kimi did nothing wrong on the straight, but no matter what Max did is not allowed. Nudging and then overtaking is black and white a no-no.

I genuinely do not know. Are they defined? Does anybody here know rules on overtaking now?

Fiki
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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Fiki »

Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:They have relaxed the rules on overtaking quite a lot, Vettels move on Hamilton would have been illegal just a few seasons ago. Crowding a car off track on corner entry used to be illegal, exit was always ok but entry not.

https://imgur.com/a/XGKDT1X

Its the same for Kimi incident though he did crowd Max out, so maybe a case of two wrongs cancelling one another out
A lot of things from the past are different. But they play to today's rules, so I don't see the relevance?
The relevance is, what are exactly are todays rules and when can you crowd a car off track?

Straight?
Corner entry?
Corner exit?

If crowding is allowed mid straight then Kimi did nothing wrong on the straight, but no matter what Max did is not allowed. Nudging and then overtaking is black and white a no-no.

I genuinely do not know. Are they defined? Does anybody here know rules on overtaking now?
Well, as I posted earlier;
Fiki wrote:
Zoue wrote:yes looking at that video it does seem that Kimi squeezed a bit too much on the corner and max was already sufficiently alongside to warrant giving a bit more room to :thumbup:
Remember that "rule" Whiting explained last year about being ahead at the apex? According to that, Verstappen did not have the right to run Räikkönen off the track, nor presumably to hit him or expect more room.
I know my record/CD/MP3 appears to be stuck, but I still haven't come across any documentation for that rule. But if Whiting explains it is actually in use, then...
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi

Rockie
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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Rockie »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mds wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Zoue wrote: yes looking at that video it does seem that Kimi squeezed a bit too much on the corner and max was already sufficiently alongside to warrant giving a bit more room to :thumbup:
But that's the racing line though Max was going into a disappearing gap, you can see Hamilton in front.
If Curva Grande is treated like a straight in order to define whether space has to be left, then surely this here is too. There was no way that gap was always going to disappear, there is no single line through there, Max was entitled to a car's width of space.

Now whether that actually should compensate for Max's nudge later on, that's another question. On the whole, both were just a tad bit naughty.
The trajectory they were going shows that.


Raikkonen would have had to change course to leave the space.
So what? He has a car alongside him and has to leave that car space. He can't just ignore it because he wants the piece of tarmac already occupied.
That's the racing line you don't have to he wasn't defending, if not anyone can put their nose anywhere.

Rockie
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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Rockie »

mds wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mds wrote:
Rockie wrote:
But that's the racing line though Max was going into a disappearing gap, you can see Hamilton in front.
If Curva Grande is treated like a straight in order to define whether space has to be left, then surely this here is too. There was no way that gap was always going to disappear, there is no single line through there, Max was entitled to a car's width of space.

Now whether that actually should compensate for Max's nudge later on, that's another question. On the whole, both were just a tad bit naughty.
The trajectory they were going shows that.

Raikkonen would have had to change course to leave the space.
No he actually changed course at one point to go from a direction that would have left Max the space, to one that made Max pull off-track a bit. Some "racing line" by the way, from off-track on the left to entirely on the right, with Max enough alongside the entire stretch.

Either way, there's still this case of having to leave space.
There's no case of that if it's the racing line.

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mds
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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mds »

Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mds wrote:
Rockie wrote:
But that's the racing line though Max was going into a disappearing gap, you can see Hamilton in front.
If Curva Grande is treated like a straight in order to define whether space has to be left, then surely this here is too. There was no way that gap was always going to disappear, there is no single line through there, Max was entitled to a car's width of space.

Now whether that actually should compensate for Max's nudge later on, that's another question. On the whole, both were just a tad bit naughty.
The trajectory they were going shows that.


Raikkonen would have had to change course to leave the space.
So what? He has a car alongside him and has to leave that car space. He can't just ignore it because he wants the piece of tarmac already occupied.
That's the racing line you don't have to he wasn't defending, if not anyone can put their nose anywhere.
The racing line does not run from left off the track to the entire right.

And yes, he did have to leave space. Of course he was defending, what else was he doing? Side-by-side choreographic driving?
Go Vandoorne :( - Verstappen - Vettel!

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mds
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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mds »

Rockie wrote:
mds wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mds wrote:
Rockie wrote:
But that's the racing line though Max was going into a disappearing gap, you can see Hamilton in front.
If Curva Grande is treated like a straight in order to define whether space has to be left, then surely this here is too. There was no way that gap was always going to disappear, there is no single line through there, Max was entitled to a car's width of space.

Now whether that actually should compensate for Max's nudge later on, that's another question. On the whole, both were just a tad bit naughty.
The trajectory they were going shows that.

Raikkonen would have had to change course to leave the space.
No he actually changed course at one point to go from a direction that would have left Max the space, to one that made Max pull off-track a bit. Some "racing line" by the way, from off-track on the left to entirely on the right, with Max enough alongside the entire stretch.

Either way, there's still this case of having to leave space.
There's no case of that if it's the racing line.
You need brushing up on the rules.
Go Vandoorne :( - Verstappen - Vettel!

Rockie
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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Rockie »

mds wrote:
Rockie wrote:
That's the racing line you don't have to he wasn't defending, if not anyone can put their nose anywhere.
The racing line does not run from left off the track to the entire right.

And yes, he did have to leave space. Of course he was defending, what else was he doing? Side-by-side choreographic driving?
Maybe watch it whilst running and not the stills as is same line coming off a right hander and going into a left hander same line Hamilton in front is on and the track turning left is going to narrow out anyway.

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mds
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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mds »

Rockie wrote: Maybe watch it whilst running and not the stills.
Who do you think posted the YouTube clip?
Man I have no idea what's so hard about it. Verstappen is alongside all the way and Raikkonen crowds him off by making a brief but very clear sudden movement to the right.

The rules say you have to leave space. It is not hard.
Go Vandoorne :( - Verstappen - Vettel!

mikeyg123
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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Rockie wrote:
That's the racing line you don't have to he wasn't defending, if not anyone can put their nose anywhere.
Even if it was, which it wasn't then so what? You can't just blindly follow the racing line and ignore a car alongside you.

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