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PRFAN wrote:

Zoue wrote:Just seen a replay and what I didn't realise was that Max bumped Kimi which helped him make his overtake. Naughty. I'm surprised the stewards didn't do anything

I think they did evaluated the contact, no further action they said. Just racing

yeah I'm not looking for a retrospective penalty, but Max hit Kimi and forced a tank slapper, which enabled him to pass. I'm surprised the pass was allowed to stand at the time.

PRFAN wrote:That was a good race from the start.

Some of you bashing drivers or teams should reevaluate.

Great win for Max, the old guy still has the speed, Vettel drove a good race. Shame for the Mercs but it happens.

Good Ferrari did not switched the drivers, that was well done.

Ditto - I agree.

Much more refreshing to read than the negativity and provincialism of comments like these.............

IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:Raikkonen as usual, losing out to everyone in wheel to wheel racing, being mugged by everyone, doesn't matter to him, he's earning money to drive around in circles. Great job Ferrari.

Zoue wrote: Conversely, Kimi is showing some decent race pace for once. I'm in shock

Zoue wrote:IF he hadn't thrown away 2nd place at the beginning then he would have been, yes. Don't see it now, though. I see him finishing 3rd at best...

Zoue wrote:So big question is if Max' tyre lets him down and Kimi catches him, will he perform a suicide move to prevent an overtake and maybe take them both out

F1nut wrote:

PRFAN wrote:That was a good race from the start.

Some of you bashing drivers or teams should reevaluate.

Great win for Max, the old guy still has the speed, Vettel drove a good race. Shame for the Mercs but it happens.

Good Ferrari did not switched the drivers, that was well done.

Ditto - I agree.

Much more refreshing to read than the negativity and provincialism of comments like these.............

IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:Raikkonen as usual, losing out to everyone in wheel to wheel racing, being mugged by everyone, doesn't matter to him, he's earning money to drive around in circles. Great job Ferrari.

Zoue wrote: Conversely, Kimi is showing some decent race pace for once. I'm in shock

Zoue wrote:IF he hadn't thrown away 2nd place at the beginning then he would have been, yes. Don't see it now, though. I see him finishing 3rd at best...

Zoue wrote:So big question is if Max' tyre lets him down and Kimi catches him, will he perform a suicide move to prevent an overtake and maybe take them both out

or sanctimonious posts like these, of course

I don't feel for Bottas at all, honestly. He got the golden ticket. While he's had some bad luck, he simply isn't as good as the other 5 drivers from the top factory teams.

Maranello1 wrote:I don't feel for Bottas at all, honestly. He got the golden ticket. While he's had some bad luck, he simply isn't as good as the other 5 drivers from the top factory teams.

He's been driving very well this season. Certainly no gulf in performance between the Mercedes drivers.

F1nut wrote:

PRFAN wrote:That was a good race from the start.

Some of you bashing drivers or teams should reevaluate.

Great win for Max, the old guy still has the speed, Vettel drove a good race. Shame for the Mercs but it happens.

Good Ferrari did not switched the drivers, that was well done.

Ditto - I agree.

Much more refreshing to read than the negativity and provincialism of comments like these.............

IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:Raikkonen as usual, losing out to everyone in wheel to wheel racing, being mugged by everyone, doesn't matter to him, he's earning money to drive around in circles. Great job Ferrari.

Zoue wrote: Conversely, Kimi is showing some decent race pace for once. I'm in shock

Zoue wrote:IF he hadn't thrown away 2nd place at the beginning then he would have been, yes. Don't see it now, though. I see him finishing 3rd at best...

Zoue wrote:So big question is if Max' tyre lets him down and Kimi catches him, will he perform a suicide move to prevent an overtake and maybe take them both out

Yeah thanks

It just get tiresome, I visit the site less due to all the negativity some spew out.

Thia is racing, and we have human drivers not robots, they get old, have bad days, have their strong and weak areas. We have team manned by humans too, seems obvious but people dont get that!! All the variables introduced because of it is what makes racing interesting. I have drivers that I dont like, sometimes I do have my strong opinions about them. But to sit in front of a TV and not enjoy the race or the neuances within it just because I am just waiting a driver to mess up and go on a rant post against a driver............you must be living a sad life.

If Alonso retires.....well he had a great run in F1 and must be respected, If Kimi goes......same, both will be a great loss to the sport. Lets enjoy what they bring and stop bashing just to sound cool on a post, its inmature.

We witnessed a great race today, more of what F1 should be.

Zoue wrote:

PRFAN wrote:

Zoue wrote:Just seen a replay and what I didn't realise was that Max bumped Kimi which helped him make his overtake. Naughty. I'm surprised the stewards didn't do anything

I think they did evaluated the contact, no further action they said. Just racing

yeah I'm not looking for a retrospective penalty, but Max hit Kimi and forced a tank slapper, which enabled him to pass. I'm surprised the pass was allowed to stand at the time.

Kimi went off track on the exit of turn 3 and then forced Max off the track in the following straight.

Maranello1 wrote:I don't feel for Bottas at all, honestly. He got the golden ticket. While he's had some bad luck, he simply isn't as good as the other 5 drivers from the top factory teams.

I think you are going to get a fair few people who are not a fan of Bottas disagree with you here. Kimi better, Seriouisly? Verstappen has had a significently worse season too. Bottas has barely been any worse than Vettel and Hamilton.

Normally I think Ricciardo, Verstappen, Vettel and Hamilton are all a step up than Bottas. But not this season. He had luck in Baku only due to a "better" drivers mistake. Then lost 25 points. He then lost 12 points, due to the same "better" driver hitting him. Without all this, he would be about 10 points behind Hamilton.

davidheath461 wrote:

Zoue wrote:

PRFAN wrote:

Zoue wrote:Just seen a replay and what I didn't realise was that Max bumped Kimi which helped him make his overtake. Naughty. I'm surprised the stewards didn't do anything

I think they did evaluated the contact, no further action they said. Just racing

yeah I'm not looking for a retrospective penalty, but Max hit Kimi and forced a tank slapper, which enabled him to pass. I'm surprised the pass was allowed to stand at the time.

Kimi went off track on the exit of turn 3 and then forced Max off the track in the following straight.

he squeezed him, true, but didn't force him off the track. I think actually punting another driver is a bit more serious?

Zoue wrote:Just seen a replay and what I didn't realise was that Max bumped Kimi which helped him make his overtake. Naughty. I'm surprised the stewards didn't do anything

Would have been very harsh as Kimi went off track and maintained position twice and pushed Max off the track earlier in the lap.

A good entertaining race and a good result to open up the championship. However, 4th race in 9 that has been essentially decided by the VSC/SC. That’s too high. Australia, China, Baku and now Austria.

Johnson wrote:A good entertaining race and a good result to open up the championship. However, 4th race in 9 that has been essentially decided by the VSC/SC. That’s too high. Australia, China, Baku and now Austria.

Not sure I would blame the VSC this time, that really was a howler by Merc today.

Mercedes have had a nightmare. 0 points from a race where they were quickest and due to no less that 3 different f*** ups in the same race.

Vettel has to be kicking himself for that silly block on Sainz, he could've won that.

VSC had no impact on the final result.

RaggedMan wrote:VSC had no impact on the final result.

I dunno it depends on what the issue was. Temps were really high, Lewis was in traffic and pushing to the max on his engine. Bit different from cruising in clear cooler air with less strain on the engine.

Black_Flag_11 wrote:Mercedes have had a nightmare. 0 points from a race where they were quickest and due to no less that 3 different f*** ups in the same race.

Vettel has to be kicking himself for that silly block on Sainz, he could've won that.

I don't think he will be. Realistically he should be about 26 points behind going into silverstone where Hamilton is usually unbeatable.

Also the block wasn't really his fault. The team let him down.

Ferrari should have switched the drivers at the end though. Madness to give up three points to Hamilton when everybody knows Kimi hasn't got a prayer of winning the championship.

Lotus49 wrote:

RaggedMan wrote:VSC had no impact on the final result.

I dunno it depends on what the issue was. Temps were really high, Lewis was in traffic and pushing to the max on his engine. Bit different from cruising in clear cooler air with less strain on the engine.

Even that, it was not the consequence of the VSC itself but the failure to pit him as the others did.

Sorry mods here, but Vettel once again bounced back,,,, I hope this Mercedes issue is temporary... I'm bloody furious at this result and even refrained from swearing .

Prema wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

RaggedMan wrote:VSC had no impact on the final result.

I dunno it depends on what the issue was. Temps were really high, Lewis was in traffic and pushing to the max on his engine. Bit different from cruising in clear cooler air with less strain on the engine.

Even that, it was not the consequence of the VSC itself but the failure to pit him as the others did.

True yeah.

If you are in front you are exposed, I wonder if ALL the top 4 would have pitted still if Hamilton did. I suspect Red Bull might have done a split in that situation which would have given them a good chance in varying situations to win the race.

I am not so sure it was a complete no brainer to pit, it was lap 13/71. 58 laps to go.

Johnson wrote:If you are in front you are exposed, I wonder if ALL the top 4 would have pitted still if Hamilton did. I suspect Red Bull might have done a split in that situation which would have given them a good chance in varying situations to win the race.

That's my view. They probably would have split the strategies if Hamilton had pitted. Although given Hamilton's speed at the time it did seem the obvious thing to do

Zoue wrote:

davidheath461 wrote:

Zoue wrote:

PRFAN wrote:

Zoue wrote:Just seen a replay and what I didn't realise was that Max bumped Kimi which helped him make his overtake. Naughty. I'm surprised the stewards didn't do anything

I think they did evaluated the contact, no further action they said. Just racing

yeah I'm not looking for a retrospective penalty, but Max hit Kimi and forced a tank slapper, which enabled him to pass. I'm surprised the pass was allowed to stand at the time.

Kimi went off track on the exit of turn 3 and then forced Max off the track in the following straight.

he squeezed him, true, but didn't force him off the track. I think actually punting another driver is a bit more serious?

He didn’t leave 1 cars width on a straight. Clearly against the rules.

mikeyg123 wrote:

Zoue wrote:Just seen a replay and what I didn't realise was that Max bumped Kimi which helped him make his overtake. Naughty. I'm surprised the stewards didn't do anything

Would have been very harsh as Kimi went off track and maintained position twice and pushed Max off the track earlier in the lap.

he went off track but didn't gain an advantage. I'm not arguing that Kimi covered himself in glory in the opening laps, but I'm sure contact is normally something that's frowned quite heavily upon?

Johnson wrote:A good entertaining race and a good result to open up the championship. However, 4th race in 9 that has been essentially decided by the VSC/SC. That’s too high. Australia, China, Baku and now Austria.

What's interesting is that Mercedes managed to get the strategy wrong in 3 of those races, they rely too much on computers and can't think off the cuff.

pokerman wrote:

Johnson wrote:A good entertaining race and a good result to open up the championship. However, 4th race in 9 that has been essentially decided by the VSC/SC. That’s too high. Australia, China, Baku and now Austria.

What's interesting is that Mercedes managed to get the strategy wrong in 3 of those races, they rely too much on computers and can't think off the cuff.

Even after the missed opportunity to put under the VSC, they messed up the strategy. They should have kept Lewis out much longer, pitted him for ultras near the end of the race and then he might have had a chance to make some passes with a significant tyre advantage.

Instead they got trigger happy when they saw Vettel pump in a couple of fast laps and decided to put him into traffic. No foresight whatsoever.

davidheath461 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Johnson wrote:A good entertaining race and a good result to open up the championship. However, 4th race in 9 that has been essentially decided by the VSC/SC. That’s too high. Australia, China, Baku and now Austria.

What's interesting is that Mercedes managed to get the strategy wrong in 3 of those races, they rely too much on computers and can't think off the cuff.

Even after the missed opportunity to put under the VSC, they messed up the strategy. They should have kept Lewis out much longer, pitted him for ultras near the end of the race and then he might have had a chance to make some passes with a significant tyre advantage.

Instead they got trigger happy when they saw Vettel pump in a couple of fast laps and decided to put him into traffic. No foresight whatsoever.

I don't think Pirelli expected a one stop on US & SS to be possible and since they struggled on tyres more than expected it would have been very difficult to make that work without risking a tyre failure.

Zoue wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Zoue wrote:Just seen a replay and what I didn't realise was that Max bumped Kimi which helped him make his overtake. Naughty. I'm surprised the stewards didn't do anything

Would have been very harsh as Kimi went off track and maintained position twice and pushed Max off the track earlier in the lap.

he went off track but didn't gain an advantage. I'm not arguing that Kimi covered himself in glory in the opening laps, but I'm sure contact is normally something that's frowned quite heavily upon?

At turn 1 he gained an advantage. Going to fast for the corner allowed him to carry more speed. Regardless I don't think we often see penalties for small amounts of contact like that where both cars continue undamaged. Furthermore I don't even think it was entirely Verstappen's fault. Kimi really squeezed him. He new Max was there and made the hit almost inevitable.

Zoue wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Zoue wrote:Just seen a replay and what I didn't realise was that Max bumped Kimi which helped him make his overtake. Naughty. I'm surprised the stewards didn't do anything

Would have been very harsh as Kimi went off track and maintained position twice and pushed Max off the track earlier in the lap.

he went off track but didn't gain an advantage. I'm not arguing that Kimi covered himself in glory in the opening laps, but I'm sure contact is normally something that's frowned quite heavily upon?

.

Of course he gained an advantage. The racing is meant to be within the race boundaries. Going off at a corner and continuing off track is like cutting a chicane.

.

shoot999 wrote:

Johnson wrote:If you are in front you are exposed, I wonder if ALL the top 4 would have pitted still if Hamilton did. I suspect Red Bull might have done a split in that situation which would have given them a good chance in varying situations to win the race.

That's my view. They probably would have split the strategies if Hamilton had pitted. Although given Hamilton's speed at the time it did seem the obvious thing to do

Red Bulls didn't split the strategies when Hamilton didn't pit, so to get a good chance in varying situations.
It was a wrong decision by Merc.

Greenman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Zoue wrote:Just seen a replay and what I didn't realise was that Max bumped Kimi which helped him make his overtake. Naughty. I'm surprised the stewards didn't do anything

Would have been very harsh as Kimi went off track and maintained position twice and pushed Max off the track earlier in the lap.

he went off track but didn't gain an advantage. I'm not arguing that Kimi covered himself in glory in the opening laps, but I'm sure contact is normally something that's frowned quite heavily upon?

.

Of course he gained an advantage. The racing is meant to be within the race boundaries. Going off at a corner and continuing off track is like cutting a chicane.

.

I don't think that's true. He went off when trying an ambitious overtake on Bottas, but he didn't gain any position and he was arguably in a worse position when he finished than if he'd just remained tucked behind the Merc. Cutting the chicane shortens the corner, which is an obvious advantage, but Kimi went the long way round. Clumsy move, yes. But advantage? No.

mikeyg123 wrote:

Zoue wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Zoue wrote:Just seen a replay and what I didn't realise was that Max bumped Kimi which helped him make his overtake. Naughty. I'm surprised the stewards didn't do anything

Would have been very harsh as Kimi went off track and maintained position twice and pushed Max off the track earlier in the lap.

he went off track but didn't gain an advantage. I'm not arguing that Kimi covered himself in glory in the opening laps, but I'm sure contact is normally something that's frowned quite heavily upon?

At turn 1 he gained an advantage. Going to fast for the corner allowed him to carry more speed. Regardless I don't think we often see penalties for small amounts of contact like that where both cars continue undamaged. Furthermore I don't even think it was entirely Verstappen's fault. Kimi really squeezed him. He new Max was there and made the hit almost inevitable.

I don't agree he gained an advantage. He lost traction and it allowed Max to be a lot closer to hi than he would otherwise have been.

I agree that's true when both cars are unaffected, but the touch caused Kimi to lose control and subsequently Max was able to sail past, so it definitely affected him. Anyway, it's academic now I suppose. You may be right that the stewards may have viewed him squeezing Max a bit as mitigating circumstances, but I just thought it was odd that an overtake was successful in no small part because one car tapped another and the stewards found that OK.

Zoue wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Zoue wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Zoue wrote:Just seen a replay and what I didn't realise was that Max bumped Kimi which helped him make his overtake. Naughty. I'm surprised the stewards didn't do anything

Would have been very harsh as Kimi went off track and maintained position twice and pushed Max off the track earlier in the lap.

he went off track but didn't gain an advantage. I'm not arguing that Kimi covered himself in glory in the opening laps, but I'm sure contact is normally something that's frowned quite heavily upon?

At turn 1 he gained an advantage. Going to fast for the corner allowed him to carry more speed. Regardless I don't think we often see penalties for small amounts of contact like that where both cars continue undamaged. Furthermore I don't even think it was entirely Verstappen's fault. Kimi really squeezed him. He new Max was there and made the hit almost inevitable.

I don't agree he gained an advantage. He lost traction and it allowed Max to be a lot closer to hi than he would otherwise have been.

I agree that's true when both cars are unaffected, but the touch caused Kimi to lose control and subsequently Max was able to sail past, so it definitely affected him. Anyway, it's academic now I suppose. You may be right that the stewards may have viewed him squeezing Max a bit as mitigating circumstances, but I just thought it was odd that an overtake was successful in no small part because one car tapped another and the stewards found that OK.

I mean turn 1 where he definitely would have been 3rd rather than 2nd if he'd taken the corner at the actual speed which would have allowed him to stay on track. I think you have to have certain give and take or you'll never stop handing out penalties.

davidheath461 wrote: Instead they got trigger happy when they saw Vettel pump in a couple of fast laps and decided to put him into traffic. No foresight whatsoever.

I understand why they did it though. Few more laps and they would've lost track position to Vettel as well and I think they wanted to avoid that - play safe in order to get him out ahead of Vettel and further gain on him in the WDC.

I don't think they had expected Vettel to overtake him on older tires. I hadn't either to be honest, I think he was just going to charge to the front, thought he would overtake Kimi and maybe even Max.

mds wrote:

davidheath461 wrote: Instead they got trigger happy when they saw Vettel pump in a couple of fast laps and decided to put him into traffic. No foresight whatsoever.

I understand why they did it though. Few more laps and they would've lost track position to Vettel as well and I think they wanted to avoid that - play safe in order to get him out ahead of Vettel and further gain on him in the WDC.

I don't think they had expected Vettel to overtake him on older tires. I hadn't either to be honest, I think he was just going to charge to the front, thought he would overtake Kimi and maybe even Max.

I felt Hamilton was still going to win after his pitstop TBH.

Does anybody know how Vettel was able to pass Hamilton? Lewis did a 1m 8.5, then the next lap he did a 1m 9.9 at which point Vettel was all over him and overtook. Did he make a mistake or get held up Ricciardo who peeled into the pits?

It also appears Vettel was held up that lap too though, he did 1m 8.7 then a 1m 9.2 but still closed enough to overtake.

mikeyg123 wrote:

mds wrote:

davidheath461 wrote: Instead they got trigger happy when they saw Vettel pump in a couple of fast laps and decided to put him into traffic. No foresight whatsoever.

I understand why they did it though. Few more laps and they would've lost track position to Vettel as well and I think they wanted to avoid that - play safe in order to get him out ahead of Vettel and further gain on him in the WDC.

I don't think they had expected Vettel to overtake him on older tires. I hadn't either to be honest, I think he was just going to charge to the front, thought he would overtake Kimi and maybe even Max.

I felt Hamilton was still going to win after his pitstop TBH.

I felt it was still possible but tyre degradation at this circuit was really low, evident by Raikkonen setting the fastest lap of the race on the final lap on 58 lap old tyres and when drivers did pit and put on new tyres it didn't make a huge difference. Hamilton being able to match Verstappen for example when Max had new tyres and Lewis pretty old ones. At high degredation tracks (like China for example) Verstappen would have been 1.5-2.0 seconds a lap quicker under those conditions.

Hamiltons 10 lap freshness advantage wasn't worth much at all it seems

mikeyg123 wrote:

mds wrote:

davidheath461 wrote: Instead they got trigger happy when they saw Vettel pump in a couple of fast laps and decided to put him into traffic. No foresight whatsoever.

I understand why they did it though. Few more laps and they would've lost track position to Vettel as well and I think they wanted to avoid that - play safe in order to get him out ahead of Vettel and further gain on him in the WDC.

I don't think they had expected Vettel to overtake him on older tires. I hadn't either to be honest, I think he was just going to charge to the front, thought he would overtake Kimi and maybe even Max.

I felt Hamilton was still going to win after his pitstop TBH.

I thought so too. Fastest car, freshest tyres, and he immediately started pulling clear from Vettel. At which point I would have expected him to overtake Kimi swiftly and then Ricciardo - I thought P2 at the very minimum was there for him.

But then Kimi quickly found Ricciardo's DRS, protecting him from Hamilton, and then he started dropping back a little, and Vettel came back on him.

mds wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

mds wrote:

davidheath461 wrote: Instead they got trigger happy when they saw Vettel pump in a couple of fast laps and decided to put him into traffic. No foresight whatsoever.

I understand why they did it though. Few more laps and they would've lost track position to Vettel as well and I think they wanted to avoid that - play safe in order to get him out ahead of Vettel and further gain on him in the WDC.

I don't think they had expected Vettel to overtake him on older tires. I hadn't either to be honest, I think he was just going to charge to the front, thought he would overtake Kimi and maybe even Max.

I felt Hamilton was still going to win after his pitstop TBH.

I thought so too. Fastest car, freshest tyres, and he immediately started pulling clear from Vettel. At which point I would have expected him to overtake Kimi swiftly and then Ricciardo - I thought P2 at the very minimum was there for him.

But then Kimi quickly found Ricciardo's DRS, protecting him from Hamilton, and then he started dropping back a little, and Vettel came back on him.

I didn't think so. To win that race I think Hamilton was going to need much fresher tyres than the guys he was going to have to pass. Unfortunately he wasn't able to keep the supersofts going far enough and had to pit a little early so his soft tyres were only 10 or so laps newer than everyone elses'. Even without the subsequent tyre blistering issues, I don't think he would have won.

j man wrote:

mds wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

mds wrote:

davidheath461 wrote: Instead they got trigger happy when they saw Vettel pump in a couple of fast laps and decided to put him into traffic. No foresight whatsoever.

I understand why they did it though. Few more laps and they would've lost track position to Vettel as well and I think they wanted to avoid that - play safe in order to get him out ahead of Vettel and further gain on him in the WDC.

I don't think they had expected Vettel to overtake him on older tires. I hadn't either to be honest, I think he was just going to charge to the front, thought he would overtake Kimi and maybe even Max.

I felt Hamilton was still going to win after his pitstop TBH.

I thought so too. Fastest car, freshest tyres, and he immediately started pulling clear from Vettel. At which point I would have expected him to overtake Kimi swiftly and then Ricciardo - I thought P2 at the very minimum was there for him.

But then Kimi quickly found Ricciardo's DRS, protecting him from Hamilton, and then he started dropping back a little, and Vettel came back on him.

I didn't think so. To win that race I think Hamilton was going to need much fresher tyres than the guys he was going to have to pass. Unfortunately he wasn't able to keep the supersofts going far enough and had to pit a little early so his soft tyres were only 10 or so laps newer than everyone elses'. Even without the subsequent tyre blistering issues, I don't think he would have won.

Well no, now I also know he wouldn't have. But during his first stint I knew Mercedes would going to bring him in as soon Vettel started threatening his pit window, and they did. And I still think it looked like the best move. Again, he had the fastest car during the first stint, threatened by no one really, and so it was logical to presume he would just drive towards the front again. And with 3 DRS zones, who could think he wouldn't have a chance at passing Raikkonen and 1 or 2 Bulls?

Johnson wrote:Does anybody know how Vettel was able to pass Hamilton? Lewis did a 1m 8.5, then the next lap he did a 1m 9.9 at which point Vettel was all over him and overtook. Did he make a mistake or get held up Ricciardo who peeled into the pits?

It also appears Vettel was held up that lap too though, he did 1m 8.7 then a 1m 9.2 but still closed enough to overtake.

If anybody is wondering, it appears to be Ricciardo had gone off the cliff or made a mistake and backed Hamilton back into Vettel who double DRS'd him.

Ricciardos in lap was a 1m 14.6, terribly slow. For comparison, Hamiltons in lap (13 laps earlier) was a 1m 12.2 and Hamiltons second in lap a 11.6.

Footage will hopefully surface.