Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

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Raikkonen

Go - Ferrari need someone closer to Vettel
32
62%
Stay - He's the perfect No 2
11
21%
Stay - in F1, but not in a Ferrari
9
17%
 
Total votes: 52

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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

KingVoid wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:The problem with Kimi is that it's not just a pure lack of pace. Every time he looks decent in quali he makes a mistake, he looks asleep at restarts, he hasn't gained a position off the start for 27 races, he's the easiest of the top drivers to overtake and rarely looks interested in overtaking anyone.
This is by far my biggest problem with Kimi. He is such a boring driver on track. He’s very predictable and almost never takes any risk.

I would also like to see Hulkenberg or Perez in that second Ferrari seat. I reckon that they would be just as good as Bottas.
So Kimi is boring but Hulkenberg isn’t??!?

Even at force India Hulkenberg was disappointing several times. Some days he’d have the car and would be doing exceedingly well in the race, only to drop back dramatically and finish much further back than he should have. At least Kimi holds position. Perez on the other hand I agree with. He’s shown that given the car is capable, he will squeeze out every last bit of performance and he’s not afraid to go for it and tends to make brilliant passes. And many times he’s been able to get more out of the tires than anyone else. And as much as I rate Perez, I still think he’d have a difficult time beating Kimi.
HAMILTON :: VERSTAPPEN :: LECLERC :: BOTTAS :: VETTEL :: SAINZ :: NORRIS
KVYAT :: RAIKKONEN :: RUSSEL :: ALBON :: RICCIARDO :: HULKENBURG :: PEREZ
STROLL :: MAGNUSSEN :: GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: GIOVANAZZI :: KUBICA

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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

KingVoid wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:The problem with Kimi is that it's not just a pure lack of pace. Every time he looks decent in quali he makes a mistake, he looks asleep at restarts, he hasn't gained a position off the start for 27 races, he's the easiest of the top drivers to overtake and rarely looks interested in overtaking anyone.
This is by far my biggest problem with Kimi. He is such a boring driver on track. He’s very predictable and almost never takes any risk.

I would also like to see Hulkenberg or Perez in that second Ferrari seat. I reckon that they would be just as good as Bottas.
So Kimi is boring but Hulkenberg isn’t??!?

Even at force India Hulkenberg was disappointing several times. Some days he’d have the car and would be doing exceedingly well in the race, only to drop back dramatically and finish much further back than he should have. At least Kimi holds position. Perez on the other hand I agree with. He’s shown that given the car is capable, he will squeeze out every last bit of performance and he’s not afraid to go for it and tends to make brilliant passes. And many times he’s been able to get more out of the tires than anyone else. And as much as I rate Perez, I still think he’d have a difficult time beating Kimi.
HAMILTON :: VERSTAPPEN :: LECLERC :: BOTTAS :: VETTEL :: SAINZ :: NORRIS
KVYAT :: RAIKKONEN :: RUSSEL :: ALBON :: RICCIARDO :: HULKENBURG :: PEREZ
STROLL :: MAGNUSSEN :: GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: GIOVANAZZI :: KUBICA

motorfinger
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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by motorfinger »

Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:I voted stay. But he does need more support than Ferrari is willing to give their number 2s - provided that is, they know they even have another driver besides the chosen one.
According to Räikkönen himself, it was too difficult to get close to the driver in front in Canada.

I do wish I knew why Räikkönen starts out qualifying among the best, only to drop back by Q3. It happens almost every time.
It's not a mystery. Just watch his laps. Every time he looks competitive in quali he blows his final Q3 lap.
Have just looked at it that he knows what his team mate can do thus he can't leave anything on the table, hence the mistakes.
Baku is a perfect example of the opposite, he knew he "just" had to not make a mistake in the final corner, and, what a surprise, he made it, probably due to thinking about it more than anything else.

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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by mikeyg123 »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:The problem with Kimi is that it's not just a pure lack of pace. Every time he looks decent in quali he makes a mistake, he looks asleep at restarts, he hasn't gained a position off the start for 27 races, he's the easiest of the top drivers to overtake and rarely looks interested in overtaking anyone.
This is by far my biggest problem with Kimi. He is such a boring driver on track. He’s very predictable and almost never takes any risk.

I would also like to see Hulkenberg or Perez in that second Ferrari seat. I reckon that they would be just as good as Bottas.
So Kimi is boring but Hulkenberg isn’t??!?

Even at force India Hulkenberg was disappointing several times. Some days he’d have the car and would be doing exceedingly well in the race, only to drop back dramatically and finish much further back than he should have. At least Kimi holds position. Perez on the other hand I agree with. He’s shown that given the car is capable, he will squeeze out every last bit of performance and he’s not afraid to go for it and tends to make brilliant passes. And many times he’s been able to get more out of the tires than anyone else. And as much as I rate Perez, I still think he’d have a difficult time beating Kimi.
Yes, seeing Hulk in the Ferrari would be much less boring. We already know everything we need to know about how Kimi can do in the car. It would be a lot more interesting to see how Hulkenberg fairs than yet another seasons of watching Kimi on cruise and collect.

And Kimi does slip back in races. Only in Baku and Monaco has he not been beaten by at least 1 driver he qualified ahead of.

dompclarke

Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by dompclarke »

mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:The problem with Kimi is that it's not just a pure lack of pace. Every time he looks decent in quali he makes a mistake, he looks asleep at restarts, he hasn't gained a position off the start for 27 races, he's the easiest of the top drivers to overtake and rarely looks interested in overtaking anyone.
This is by far my biggest problem with Kimi. He is such a boring driver on track. He’s very predictable and almost never takes any risk.

I would also like to see Hulkenberg or Perez in that second Ferrari seat. I reckon that they would be just as good as Bottas.
So Kimi is boring but Hulkenberg isn’t??!?

Even at force India Hulkenberg was disappointing several times. Some days he’d have the car and would be doing exceedingly well in the race, only to drop back dramatically and finish much further back than he should have. At least Kimi holds position. Perez on the other hand I agree with. He’s shown that given the car is capable, he will squeeze out every last bit of performance and he’s not afraid to go for it and tends to make brilliant passes. And many times he’s been able to get more out of the tires than anyone else. And as much as I rate Perez, I still think he’d have a difficult time beating Kimi.
Yes, seeing Hulk in the Ferrari would be much less boring. We already know everything we need to know about how Kimi can do in the car. It would be a lot more interesting to see how Hulkenberg fairs than yet another seasons of watching Kimi on cruise and collect.

And Kimi does slip back in races. Only in Baku and Monaco has he not been beaten by at least 1 driver he qualified ahead of.
Well lets replace Vettel with Maldonado, we all know what Vettel can do in the car and Maldonado would add entertainment ;)

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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

I'm not sure weather Hulkenberg or Perez would do a better job than Kimi instantly. I personally think Perez has been under performing a little this season. Yes, he has a podium. No other driver outside the top 3 teams has this, but I think it was fortunate in the way Stroll's was last year. Hulkenberg binned it, then Ricciardo and Verstappen. Then the safety car came out, allowed him to catch up to the leaders. Vettel locked up and damaged his tyres, then Bottas hit debris. I'd say he could possibly have got Hulkenberg, but that is at least 4 places further down without several top cars messing up. So 7th at best I think. Given he got 15 out of his 17 points this year in just one race, I don't think that looks that impressive. Maybe Force India is worse than I'm realising though. But I'm not seeing the same performance in Perez that I used to.

Hulkenberg doesn’t impress me much either. He often seems to perform well, but sometimes when he has the chances to get really good results, he messes up. Baku both this year and last were chances to get lots of points. And I think is was reasonably clear that Perez was better than him. And I still think that the fact that Hulkenberg hasn't managed a podium is a bit surprising. They were in the same car in 2014 - 2016. How many did Perez get over these years? 3 or 4 maybe?. Then they have still been in reasonably even cars since and Perez had just recently managed another. And I myself think Perez this year isn't looking quite as good as he used to be. Unless his current car or Ocon is making him look worse.

I myself think Bottas is better than these two. He possibly is off the pace a bit more often, but is often on it too. And I think he makes far less mistakes than both. Bottas hasn't collected any penalty points for well over 2 years. Don't think any other driver that has been in F1 this long has avoided any. It isn't exactly an achievement, but it indicates he keeps things clean and stays out of trouble.

So, in terms of who would replace Kimi if he goes, I'm not really sure. If Ricciardo leaves Red Bull, I would say he is definitely the best option. Even if Leclerc does incredibly well this season, I think moving him up to a top team this soon is too early. If he improves, give him a year at Hass. If he looks great there, then sure, Ferrari should grab him. I then think Perez would probably be the next best option. I don't think he would be stronger than Kimi to start with as it would be a totally new environment. but I soon think he would start being better.

But I'm wondering what Mercedes will be doing with Bottas. I think they should sign him on mid season again. If he continues like this and basically continues to look pretty even with Hamilton, I wouldn;'t be surprised if he gets more than a years contract. If Mercedes decide to drop Bottas, I think he should be the top choice for Ferrari. I understand others would want to see another driver on the grid get a chance to drive in a top team, but Bottas will have already had the experience. And they will know that he is decent. I think that he will be the ideal driver for what Ferrari wants. It will just be a shame if they treat whoever they chose like they treat Kimi.

Now I have written all this, I still don't think keeping Kimi would be a bad decision really. They know what to expect and I don't think Kimi has got worse over the last couple of seasons. If they want a driver that accepts what the team do the favour the other driver, as annoying as it is to us, maybe there isn't a better option. I'm just not sure what Ferrari will do.

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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by mikeyg123 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:I'm not sure weather Hulkenberg or Perez would do a better job than Kimi instantly. I personally think Perez has been under performing a little this season. Yes, he has a podium. No other driver outside the top 3 teams has this, but I think it was fortunate in the way Stroll's was last year. Hulkenberg binned it, then Ricciardo and Verstappen. Then the safety car came out, allowed him to catch up to the leaders. Vettel locked up and damaged his tyres, then Bottas hit debris. I'd say he could possibly have got Hulkenberg, but that is at least 4 places further down without several top cars messing up. So 7th at best I think. Given he got 15 out of his 17 points this year in just one race, I don't think that looks that impressive. Maybe Force India is worse than I'm realising though. But I'm not seeing the same performance in Perez that I used to.

Hulkenberg doesn’t impress me much either. He often seems to perform well, but sometimes when he has the chances to get really good results, he messes up. Baku both this year and last were chances to get lots of points. And I think is was reasonably clear that Perez was better than him. And I still think that the fact that Hulkenberg hasn't managed a podium is a bit surprising. They were in the same car in 2014 - 2016. How many did Perez get over these years? 3 or 4 maybe?. Then they have still been in reasonably even cars since and Perez had just recently managed another. And I myself think Perez this year isn't looking quite as good as he used to be. Unless his current car or Ocon is making him look worse.

I myself think Bottas is better than these two. He possibly is off the pace a bit more often, but is often on it too. And I think he makes far less mistakes than both. Bottas hasn't collected any penalty points for well over 2 years. Don't think any other driver that has been in F1 this long has avoided any. It isn't exactly an achievement, but it indicates he keeps things clean and stays out of trouble.

So, in terms of who would replace Kimi if he goes, I'm not really sure. If Ricciardo leaves Red Bull, I would say he is definitely the best option. Even if Leclerc does incredibly well this season, I think moving him up to a top team this soon is too early. If he improves, give him a year at Hass. If he looks great there, then sure, Ferrari should grab him. I then think Perez would probably be the next best option. I don't think he would be stronger than Kimi to start with as it would be a totally new environment. but I soon think he would start being better.

But I'm wondering what Mercedes will be doing with Bottas. I think they should sign him on mid season again. If he continues like this and basically continues to look pretty even with Hamilton, I wouldn;'t be surprised if he gets more than a years contract. If Mercedes decide to drop Bottas, I think he should be the top choice for Ferrari. I understand others would want to see another driver on the grid get a chance to drive in a top team, but Bottas will have already had the experience. And they will know that he is decent. I think that he will be the ideal driver for what Ferrari wants. It will just be a shame if they treat whoever they chose like they treat Kimi.

Now I have written all this, I still don't think keeping Kimi would be a bad decision really. They know what to expect and I don't think Kimi has got worse over the last couple of seasons. If they want a driver that accepts what the team do the favour the other driver, as annoying as it is to us, maybe there isn't a better option. I'm just not sure what Ferrari will do.
Drivers ratings go up and down with the cars in the midfield. I doubt Perez has suddenly got worse just at the same time his car has dropped back compared to the opposition.

I'm not saying either would certainly do better than Kimi but I think at least they would try to maximise opportunities.

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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by mikeyg123 »

dompclarke wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:The problem with Kimi is that it's not just a pure lack of pace. Every time he looks decent in quali he makes a mistake, he looks asleep at restarts, he hasn't gained a position off the start for 27 races, he's the easiest of the top drivers to overtake and rarely looks interested in overtaking anyone.
This is by far my biggest problem with Kimi. He is such a boring driver on track. He’s very predictable and almost never takes any risk.

I would also like to see Hulkenberg or Perez in that second Ferrari seat. I reckon that they would be just as good as Bottas.
So Kimi is boring but Hulkenberg isn’t??!?

Even at force India Hulkenberg was disappointing several times. Some days he’d have the car and would be doing exceedingly well in the race, only to drop back dramatically and finish much further back than he should have. At least Kimi holds position. Perez on the other hand I agree with. He’s shown that given the car is capable, he will squeeze out every last bit of performance and he’s not afraid to go for it and tends to make brilliant passes. And many times he’s been able to get more out of the tires than anyone else. And as much as I rate Perez, I still think he’d have a difficult time beating Kimi.
Yes, seeing Hulk in the Ferrari would be much less boring. We already know everything we need to know about how Kimi can do in the car. It would be a lot more interesting to see how Hulkenberg fairs than yet another seasons of watching Kimi on cruise and collect.

And Kimi does slip back in races. Only in Baku and Monaco has he not been beaten by at least 1 driver he qualified ahead of.
Well lets replace Vettel with Maldonado, we all know what Vettel can do in the car and Maldonado would add entertainment ;)
well it would do in a way.

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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

dompclarke wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:The problem with Kimi is that it's not just a pure lack of pace. Every time he looks decent in quali he makes a mistake, he looks asleep at restarts, he hasn't gained a position off the start for 27 races, he's the easiest of the top drivers to overtake and rarely looks interested in overtaking anyone.
This is by far my biggest problem with Kimi. He is such a boring driver on track. He’s very predictable and almost never takes any risk.

I would also like to see Hulkenberg or Perez in that second Ferrari seat. I reckon that they would be just as good as Bottas.
So Kimi is boring but Hulkenberg isn’t??!?

Even at force India Hulkenberg was disappointing several times. Some days he’d have the car and would be doing exceedingly well in the race, only to drop back dramatically and finish much further back than he should have. At least Kimi holds position. Perez on the other hand I agree with. He’s shown that given the car is capable, he will squeeze out every last bit of performance and he’s not afraid to go for it and tends to make brilliant passes. And many times he’s been able to get more out of the tires than anyone else. And as much as I rate Perez, I still think he’d have a difficult time beating Kimi.
Yes, seeing Hulk in the Ferrari would be much less boring. We already know everything we need to know about how Kimi can do in the car. It would be a lot more interesting to see how Hulkenberg fairs than yet another seasons of watching Kimi on cruise and collect.

And Kimi does slip back in races. Only in Baku and Monaco has he not been beaten by at least 1 driver he qualified ahead of.
Well lets replace Vettel with Maldonado, we all know what Vettel can do in the car and Maldonado would add entertainment ;)
Well, We all think verstappen deserves a top team drive. I don't think maldonado's most recent season was any worse in the first 7 races than Verstappen's had been. I'd say he was better. He retired in all of the first 6 races (or at least didn't cross the finish line). All these were due to Mechanical problems. Then he had a good race in Canada. Running 5th and 6th a lot of the race and. Finished 7th bus still a good result. So maybe Maldonado should replace Kimi? You never know, he'll have had a few years out the sport, he may come back really good! :D Not really though. I was just making a point as I think Verstappen looked about as bad as Maldnoado did at one stage, just all in one cluster of races.

RaggedMan
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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by RaggedMan »

My thoughts on the ones being put forward so far in this thread.

Perez isn’t an option, at any top team, because of his habit of racing his team mates harder than he does the opposition.

Hulk would be a choice long term as a Kimi like, but possibly more consistent, number 2 driver. But it’d be career sucide for him if Leclerc gets moved up in 2020.

Ricciardo is a better choice if they’re looking for a successor to the number 1 spot.

Leclerc is showing enough promise right now but the sample size is still too small. I’d like to see him at Haas but I don’t think it’s necessary in order to evaluate him as Sauber is doing better this year and hopefully with the partnership with Ferrari, via Alfa, they’ll be able to maintain or improve over the next couple of years to gauge Leclerc in the midfield more without having him in a new team every season.
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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
Noni wrote:I like Kimi. To be honest, but his career is over, time for fresh blood in F1. The problem with Ferrari, they only appear to be putting their eggs into one driver and that's Vettel. I hope I'm wrong here. Daniel would not allow Vettel to walk all over him. Not sure about Leclerc as a team mate ?... I really like this kid, but I'm sure Vettel will have the final say about orders...
Right now Max is walking all over Daniel, as when Max keeps it clean he beats him.
That's not because of team strategy though.
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funkymonkey
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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by funkymonkey »

Kimi has looked much better this year, but at the same time his tendency to make mistakes when it really counts is still there. We saw that again in Canada. It should have been Ferrari 1-2 or at least 1-3.
I like Kimi but I think its time to put someone else in that seat for Ferrari. Leclerc will be my obvious choice. If Ferrari wants more experienced drivers, then Hulk or Sainz. No Perez, No Max, and probably no Ricciardo while Vettel is there.

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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by Fiki »

motorfinger wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:I voted stay. But he does need more support than Ferrari is willing to give their number 2s - provided that is, they know they even have another driver besides the chosen one.
According to Räikkönen himself, it was too difficult to get close to the driver in front in Canada.

I do wish I knew why Räikkönen starts out qualifying among the best, only to drop back by Q3. It happens almost every time.
It's not a mystery. Just watch his laps. Every time he looks competitive in quali he blows his final Q3 lap.
Have just looked at it that he knows what his team mate can do thus he can't leave anything on the table, hence the mistakes.
Baku is a perfect example of the opposite, he knew he "just" had to not make a mistake in the final corner, and, what a surprise, he made it, probably due to thinking about it more than anything else.
The key word being "probably". Avoiding the mistake in his first attempt, may have made him overcompensate into the opposite mistake, but it doesn't clarify why his Q3s are usually worse in the end. Is it that changes are made to the car between Q1 and 2, and again for 3? Or perhaps even between the two runs of Q3? His banker laps used to be very good indeed and theses seem to have suffered.

I'm still no wiser, Rockie. Saying he blows it doesn't explain it.
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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by Zoue »

Fiki wrote:
motorfinger wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:I voted stay. But he does need more support than Ferrari is willing to give their number 2s - provided that is, they know they even have another driver besides the chosen one.
According to Räikkönen himself, it was too difficult to get close to the driver in front in Canada.

I do wish I knew why Räikkönen starts out qualifying among the best, only to drop back by Q3. It happens almost every time.
It's not a mystery. Just watch his laps. Every time he looks competitive in quali he blows his final Q3 lap.
Have just looked at it that he knows what his team mate can do thus he can't leave anything on the table, hence the mistakes.
Baku is a perfect example of the opposite, he knew he "just" had to not make a mistake in the final corner, and, what a surprise, he made it, probably due to thinking about it more than anything else.
The key word being "probably". Avoiding the mistake in his first attempt, may have made him overcompensate into the opposite mistake, but it doesn't clarify why his Q3s are usually worse in the end. Is it that changes are made to the car between Q1 and 2, and again for 3? Or perhaps even between the two runs of Q3? His banker laps used to be very good indeed and theses seem to have suffered.

I'm still no wiser, Rockie. Saying he blows it doesn't explain it.
Kimi usually admits to making a mistake, I don't think we need to look much further than that. Probably just over-driving the car in an attempt to eke out that final tenth or so

They are very limited in what they can do with the car between sessions. But given the number of times he does make mistakes in Q3 then maybe he should be looking at not making any changes in future (assume these are made, of course)? Either way I think he should be looking at himself to correct it

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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by Fiki »

Zoue wrote:
Fiki wrote:The key word being "probably". Avoiding the mistake in his first attempt, may have made him overcompensate into the opposite mistake, but it doesn't clarify why his Q3s are usually worse in the end. Is it that changes are made to the car between Q1 and 2, and again for 3? Or perhaps even between the two runs of Q3? His banker laps used to be very good indeed and theses seem to have suffered.

I'm still no wiser, Rockie. Saying he blows it doesn't explain it.
Kimi usually admits to making a mistake, I don't think we need to look much further than that. Probably just over-driving the car in an attempt to eke out that final tenth or so

They are very limited in what they can do with the car between sessions. But given the number of times he does make mistakes in Q3 then maybe he should be looking at not making any changes in future (assume these are made, of course)? Either way I think he should be looking at himself to correct it
You would think that if Ferrari want him to do well, it would be looked into by the team, not just him and his engineer, wouldn't you? The vagueness of reporting is nothing unusual from Ferrari of course, but being a top team, I would love to see more insightful articles on Autosport. They just seem to focus on the more talkative drivers like Hamilton and Vettel.

Anyway Ferrari, Kimi stays if you ask me! Which you don't, obviously. :D
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

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mikeyg123
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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Fiki wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Fiki wrote:The key word being "probably". Avoiding the mistake in his first attempt, may have made him overcompensate into the opposite mistake, but it doesn't clarify why his Q3s are usually worse in the end. Is it that changes are made to the car between Q1 and 2, and again for 3? Or perhaps even between the two runs of Q3? His banker laps used to be very good indeed and theses seem to have suffered.

I'm still no wiser, Rockie. Saying he blows it doesn't explain it.
Kimi usually admits to making a mistake, I don't think we need to look much further than that. Probably just over-driving the car in an attempt to eke out that final tenth or so

They are very limited in what they can do with the car between sessions. But given the number of times he does make mistakes in Q3 then maybe he should be looking at not making any changes in future (assume these are made, of course)? Either way I think he should be looking at himself to correct it
You would think that if Ferrari want him to do well, it would be looked into by the team, not just him and his engineer, wouldn't you? The vagueness of reporting is nothing unusual from Ferrari of course, but being a top team, I would love to see more insightful articles on Autosport. They just seem to focus on the more talkative drivers like Hamilton and Vettel.

Anyway Ferrari, Kimi stays if you ask me! Which you don't, obviously. :D
Difficult to know what Ferrari can do to stop Kimi choking when the heat is on? Perhaps hire a mental coach. Sometimes these things can become a bit of block.

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Robot
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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by Robot »

Go, he brings nothing to F1, not driving or character. He is just one mediocre driver pretending to be cold as ice.

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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by BMWSauber84 »

He should probably go. If you take into account the points that were thrown away from Vettel through freak circumstances, the gap would be a chasm.

With LeClerc it is so very obvious already that he is a bit special. I have no doubt that he would be competitive right away in a top team. That might ultimately actually cost him an early step up as they tend to prefer just the one number one driver..

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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by Blake »

Robot wrote:Go, he brings nothing to F1, not driving or character. He is just one mediocre driver pretending to be cold as ice.
Whatever you say.
:lol:
Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15

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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Apart from the obvious ones (Hamilton, Alonso, Ricciardo, Verstappen), I am very sure that Hülkenberg, Ocon, Perez, Sainz, Bottas would score better results over the season in a Ferrari than Räikkönen. I'd probably include Leclerc in that list. Although it may be an unpopular opinion, I do not think that Magnussen, Grosjean, Vandoorne, Gasly, Wehrlein would do worse, more about equal, than today's Räikkönen. I am sure Ferrari could hire one of the former group if they wanted. But somehow a more competitive (and more eager) second driver seems uninteresting for some leading people within Ferrari ...

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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by Mercedes-Benz »

Canada was only 1 bad race he had this year. 2 DNF but otherwise this is pretty good start for the season by Kimi standard. Only drivers who can do better are Ricciardo and Hamilton but I do not think they will want to partner Vettel who obviously has number1 status in the team.
Sir Stirling Moss "Quite frankly, Kimi Raikkonen is the fastest driver in the world"

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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by sandman1347 »

Mercedes-Benz wrote:Canada was only 1 bad race he had this year. 2 DNF but otherwise this is pretty good start for the season by Kimi standard. Only drivers who can do better are Ricciardo and Hamilton but I do not think they will want to partner Vettel who obviously has number1 status in the team.
The bolded part fascinates me. What makes you think that only Hamilton or Ricciardo could do better than Raikkonen is doing? Kimi is basically not doing anything special. We give him praise for races where he simply doesn't completely screw up.

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a driver on the grid who wouldn't do better than Kimi in the Ferrari to be honest. Especially if you consider his performance over the last 4-5 years and not just the last 4-5 races. He has been pretty bad. He never gains a position that the car isn't up to and he often loses positions that he has no business losing. He gives you nothing really. There are maybe 5 drivers on the current grid who I would not be confident in replacing him with but not even one who I would be certain would fare worse than him.

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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by Mercedes-Benz »

^
lol. Yes I am sure most if not all drivers in F1 can get good results in Ferrari or a top car. So in a way it is impossible to tell. I am pretty sure Ricciardo and probably Bottas as well are the only real options for Ferrari though.
Sir Stirling Moss "Quite frankly, Kimi Raikkonen is the fastest driver in the world"

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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by sandman1347 »

Mercedes-Benz wrote:^
lol. Yes I am sure most if not all drivers in F1 can get good results in Ferrari or a top car. So in a way it is impossible to tell. I am pretty sure Ricciardo and probably Bottas as well are the only real options for Ferrari though.
Almost any driver in F1 is a real option for Ferrari (and most drivers outside of F1). Anyone would jump on an opportunity to race F1 cars for Ferrari. What you probably mean is that Ferrari won't offer the seat to any of those people and that is exactly the problem that some people are pointing out. For a company that hasn't won a championship in over a decade, they are certainly very complacent...

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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by Rockie »

sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:^
lol. Yes I am sure most if not all drivers in F1 can get good results in Ferrari or a top car. So in a way it is impossible to tell. I am pretty sure Ricciardo and probably Bottas as well are the only real options for Ferrari though.
Almost any driver in F1 is a real option for Ferrari (and most drivers outside of F1). Anyone would jump on an opportunity to race F1 cars for Ferrari. What you probably mean is that Ferrari won't offer the seat to any of those people and that is exactly the problem that some people are pointing out. For a company that hasn't won a championship in over a decade, they are certainly very complacent...
It's not a problem, Ferrari is a prestigious team for a reason whatever you think of Raikkonen he is a former WDC.

What most people are after is not what's good for Ferrari as the team already know that, but someone who would take points of Vettel.

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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:^
lol. Yes I am sure most if not all drivers in F1 can get good results in Ferrari or a top car. So in a way it is impossible to tell. I am pretty sure Ricciardo and probably Bottas as well are the only real options for Ferrari though.
Almost any driver in F1 is a real option for Ferrari (and most drivers outside of F1). Anyone would jump on an opportunity to race F1 cars for Ferrari. What you probably mean is that Ferrari won't offer the seat to any of those people and that is exactly the problem that some people are pointing out. For a company that hasn't won a championship in over a decade, they are certainly very complacent...
It's not a problem, Ferrari is a prestigious team for a reason whatever you think of Raikkonen he is a former WDC.

What most people are after is not what's good for Ferrari as the team already know that, but someone who would take points of Vettel.
Taking 20 points a season off Vettel a season is fine if he takes 25 off Hamilton. Ferrari need someone who can finish 2nd when Vettel wins.

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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by Rockie »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:^
lol. Yes I am sure most if not all drivers in F1 can get good results in Ferrari or a top car. So in a way it is impossible to tell. I am pretty sure Ricciardo and probably Bottas as well are the only real options for Ferrari though.
Almost any driver in F1 is a real option for Ferrari (and most drivers outside of F1). Anyone would jump on an opportunity to race F1 cars for Ferrari. What you probably mean is that Ferrari won't offer the seat to any of those people and that is exactly the problem that some people are pointing out. For a company that hasn't won a championship in over a decade, they are certainly very complacent...
It's not a problem, Ferrari is a prestigious team for a reason whatever you think of Raikkonen he is a former WDC.

What most people are after is not what's good for Ferrari as the team already know that, but someone who would take points of Vettel.
Taking 20 points a season off Vettel a season is fine if he takes 25 off Hamilton. Ferrari need someone who can finish 2nd when Vettel wins.
Problem is if this season has gone according to what you want Ferrari will be out of sight now in both championships, or maybe a repeat of Singapore.

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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

Mercedes-Benz wrote:Canada was only 1 bad race he had this year. 2 DNF but otherwise this is pretty good start for the season by Kimi standard. Only drivers who can do better are Ricciardo and Hamilton but I do not think they will want to partner Vettel who obviously has number1 status in the team.
Ricciardo will have the mental edge being as he beat Vettel when he was clearly #1 at Red Bull, so I think he'd jump at the chance to drive for the Scuderia in less than a heartbeat.
Hamilton might not be keen on jumping to Ferrari according to him (I don't buy that for a single moment as Ferrari F1 is the ultimate name on any drivers resume and I don't care what ANYONE says), but if he were to make the move, there would be fireworks because to begin with Hamilton will have it stipulated in his contract that no one is to receive preferential treatment or parts allotment. Additionally, there is ZERO chance that Hamilton would yield to Vettel in any way shape or form and the same would be true of Vettel. Qualifying on the other hand would make for the most edge of your seat action in the history of the sport!

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HAMILTON :: VERSTAPPEN :: LECLERC :: BOTTAS :: VETTEL :: SAINZ :: NORRIS
KVYAT :: RAIKKONEN :: RUSSEL :: ALBON :: RICCIARDO :: HULKENBURG :: PEREZ
STROLL :: MAGNUSSEN :: GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: GIOVANAZZI :: KUBICA

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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:The problem with Kimi is that it's not just a pure lack of pace. Every time he looks decent in quali he makes a mistake, he looks asleep at restarts, he hasn't gained a position off the start for 27 races, he's the easiest of the top drivers to overtake and rarely looks interested in overtaking anyone.
This is by far my biggest problem with Kimi. He is such a boring driver on track. He’s very predictable and almost never takes any risk.

I would also like to see Hulkenberg or Perez in that second Ferrari seat. I reckon that they would be just as good as Bottas.
So Kimi is boring but Hulkenberg isn’t??!?

Even at force India Hulkenberg was disappointing several times. Some days he’d have the car and would be doing exceedingly well in the race, only to drop back dramatically and finish much further back than he should have. At least Kimi holds position. Perez on the other hand I agree with. He’s shown that given the car is capable, he will squeeze out every last bit of performance and he’s not afraid to go for it and tends to make brilliant passes. And many times he’s been able to get more out of the tires than anyone else. And as much as I rate Perez, I still think he’d have a difficult time beating Kimi.
Yes, seeing Hulk in the Ferrari would be much less boring. We already know everything we need to know about how Kimi can do in the car. It would be a lot more interesting to see how Hulkenberg fairs than yet another seasons of watching Kimi on cruise and collect.

And Kimi does slip back in races. Only in Baku and Monaco has he not been beaten by at least 1 driver he qualified ahead of.
BIB

Your probably right… But for the opposite reason you imagine.
Hulk would do really well for most of the race, fending off challenges from others and challenging and possibly overtaking a few guys, but come the last 3rd of the race would begine to plummet backwards steadily as has been his motif for most of his F1 career. I REALLY like the guy and I see how good he can be, but too often I've been like holy cow this kid is about to break out, and then loses pace almost completely and begins to dodge cars left and right as they come up to pass him. Perez clearly bested him in their time at Force India together and Perez had a few moments where he made significant mistakes.

Perez in Ferrari is far better for all than Hulkenberg.
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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by mikeyg123 »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:The problem with Kimi is that it's not just a pure lack of pace. Every time he looks decent in quali he makes a mistake, he looks asleep at restarts, he hasn't gained a position off the start for 27 races, he's the easiest of the top drivers to overtake and rarely looks interested in overtaking anyone.
This is by far my biggest problem with Kimi. He is such a boring driver on track. He’s very predictable and almost never takes any risk.

I would also like to see Hulkenberg or Perez in that second Ferrari seat. I reckon that they would be just as good as Bottas.
So Kimi is boring but Hulkenberg isn’t??!?

Even at force India Hulkenberg was disappointing several times. Some days he’d have the car and would be doing exceedingly well in the race, only to drop back dramatically and finish much further back than he should have. At least Kimi holds position. Perez on the other hand I agree with. He’s shown that given the car is capable, he will squeeze out every last bit of performance and he’s not afraid to go for it and tends to make brilliant passes. And many times he’s been able to get more out of the tires than anyone else. And as much as I rate Perez, I still think he’d have a difficult time beating Kimi.
Yes, seeing Hulk in the Ferrari would be much less boring. We already know everything we need to know about how Kimi can do in the car. It would be a lot more interesting to see how Hulkenberg fairs than yet another seasons of watching Kimi on cruise and collect.

And Kimi does slip back in races. Only in Baku and Monaco has he not been beaten by at least 1 driver he qualified ahead of.
BIB

Your probably right… But for the opposite reason you imagine.
Hulk would do really well for most of the race, fending off challenges from others and challenging and possibly overtaking a few guys, but come the last 3rd of the race would begine to plummet backwards steadily as has been his motif for most of his F1 career. I REALLY like the guy and I see how good he can be, but too often I've been like holy cow this kid is about to break out, and then loses pace almost completely and begins to dodge cars left and right as they come up to pass him. Perez clearly bested him in their time at Force India together and Perez had a few moments where he made significant mistakes.

Perez in Ferrari is far better for all than Hulkenberg.
Well I've said many times I rate Perez higher than Hulk. I do think Hulk would do at least as well as Kimi though.

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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by DOLOMITE »

but if you're "only" as good as you're last race, how would the voting look now I wonder?...
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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by mikeyg123 »

DOLOMITE wrote:but if you're "only" as good as you're last race, how would the voting look now I wonder?...
Well, in his last race he chucked a win away so I doubt it would change many minds.

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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by sandman1347 »

Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:^
lol. Yes I am sure most if not all drivers in F1 can get good results in Ferrari or a top car. So in a way it is impossible to tell. I am pretty sure Ricciardo and probably Bottas as well are the only real options for Ferrari though.
Almost any driver in F1 is a real option for Ferrari (and most drivers outside of F1). Anyone would jump on an opportunity to race F1 cars for Ferrari. What you probably mean is that Ferrari won't offer the seat to any of those people and that is exactly the problem that some people are pointing out. For a company that hasn't won a championship in over a decade, they are certainly very complacent...
It's not a problem, Ferrari is a prestigious team for a reason whatever you think of Raikkonen he is a former WDC.

What most people are after is not what's good for Ferrari as the team already know that, but someone who would take points of Vettel.
That's the type of thinking that could haunt them. Placating Vettel should actually not supersede winning the championship. If Vettel were winning titles for them then by all means I would say don't rock the boat but that's not what's happening. They haven't gotten over the hump but yet they are complacent. With Ricciardo on the market, they showed no interest. I find that bizarre when they could easily have signed him and when there is such direct evidence that he would likely be an upgrade from what they have. Remember, they haven't won...

If at some point in the near future Ferrari find themselves no longer on the pace; if they find that they are no longer capable of fighting for the championship and if they have not delivered the title by then, they will have to look in the mirror and ask themselves if they did everything in their power to win while their window of opportunity was open. The answer (at least at this stage) would be a resounding "no".

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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by mds »

sandman1347 wrote:Placating Vettel should actually not supersede winning the championship. If Vettel were winning titles for them then by all means I would say don't rock the boat but that's not what's happening. They haven't gotten over the hump but yet they are complacent. With Ricciardo on the market, they showed no interest. I find that bizarre when they could easily have signed him and when there is such direct evidence that he would likely be an upgrade from what they have. Remember, they haven't won...
Well, apparently they believe in Vettel and believe him to offer them the best shot at winning a title. Ferrari are not stupid, and at Ferrari the team comes first - if they believe Ricciardo would have been a definite upgrade then they would have plunged for it. But apparently they don't and that "direct evidence" to them probably isn't that convincing.
Go Vandoorne :( - Verstappen - Vettel!

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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by sandman1347 »

mds wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:Placating Vettel should actually not supersede winning the championship. If Vettel were winning titles for them then by all means I would say don't rock the boat but that's not what's happening. They haven't gotten over the hump but yet they are complacent. With Ricciardo on the market, they showed no interest. I find that bizarre when they could easily have signed him and when there is such direct evidence that he would likely be an upgrade from what they have. Remember, they haven't won...
Well, apparently they believe in Vettel and believe him to offer them the best shot at winning a title. Ferrari are not stupid, and at Ferrari the team comes first - if they believe Ricciardo would have been a definite upgrade then they would have plunged for it. But apparently they don't and that "direct evidence" to them probably isn't that convincing.
There are a whole lot of unsupported assumptions in this post. If "the team comes first" at Ferrari then wouldn't they prioritize the WCC and not the WDC? Wouldn't they urgently look to replace an under-performing driver? Kimi has been at Ferrari for 5 years in this second stint and he hasn't even won a single race. He also consistently finishes behind at least one driver in an inferior car in the standings and yet they keep paying him to do that.

The "direct evidence" (not sure why you put it in quotes but I'll go with it) is the fact that Daniel was the stronger of the pair when he and Vettel were teammates. If that isn't direct evidence please tell me what is? I mean that genuinely.

Perhaps Vettel will get the job done for them in the end and all will work out but if it doesn't, they will have to acknowledge that they didn't maximize their chances.

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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by mds »

sandman1347 wrote: There are a whole lot of unsupported assumptions in this post. If "the team comes first" at Ferrari then wouldn't they prioritize the WCC and not the WDC? Wouldn't they urgently look to replace an under-performing driver? Kimi has been at Ferrari for 5 years in this second stint and he hasn't even won a single race. He also consistently finishes behind at least one driver in an inferior car in the standings and yet they keep paying him to do that.
That the team comes first at Ferrari isn't an unsupported assumption - if you think it is then you really need to look at all of Ferrari's history, past and present. No driver is ever bigger than the team at Ferrari. That doesn't mean they prioritize the WCC by default, in fact I think they want to get the WDC more than the WCC, but then the importance of winning a WDC even for a team is pretty high as drivers usually get more focus.

As I said, they are not fools. Why on earth keep Vettel when they think another man could do the job better? Give me one solid argument for that?
The "direct evidence" (not sure why you put it in quotes but I'll go with it) is the fact that Daniel was the stronger of the pair when he and Vettel were teammates. If that isn't direct evidence please tell me what is? I mean that genuinely.
Evidence is material that goes towards proving something. The evidence in this case is evidence for Ricciardo being better than Vettel in 2014. I do not consider that direct evidence for 2018, rather indirect, but that put aside my opinion on that doesn't matter. Ferrari's opinion does. And their decision at this point is quite clear.
Perhaps Vettel will get the job done for them in the end and all will work out but if it doesn't, they will have to acknowledge that they didn't maximize their chances.
They won't have to acknowledge anything - they have their reasons today to decide what they decide. Working with Vettel and seeing what he is doing, probably supports their idea that he is the best man for the job. The data points on which these decision have been based upon are set in stone, they are what they are and they won't change.

Suppose next year he goes on a rampage where he doesn't finish any of the first ten races of the year , then obviously the decision will be not to proceed with him, which will be valid at that point in time.
Go Vandoorne :( - Verstappen - Vettel!

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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by dompclarke »

sandman1347 wrote:
mds wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:Placating Vettel should actually not supersede winning the championship. If Vettel were winning titles for them then by all means I would say don't rock the boat but that's not what's happening. They haven't gotten over the hump but yet they are complacent. With Ricciardo on the market, they showed no interest. I find that bizarre when they could easily have signed him and when there is such direct evidence that he would likely be an upgrade from what they have. Remember, they haven't won...
Well, apparently they believe in Vettel and believe him to offer them the best shot at winning a title. Ferrari are not stupid, and at Ferrari the team comes first - if they believe Ricciardo would have been a definite upgrade then they would have plunged for it. But apparently they don't and that "direct evidence" to them probably isn't that convincing.
There are a whole lot of unsupported assumptions in this post. If "the team comes first" at Ferrari then wouldn't they prioritize the WCC and not the WDC? Wouldn't they urgently look to replace an under-performing driver? Kimi has been at Ferrari for 5 years in this second stint and he hasn't even won a single race. He also consistently finishes behind at least one driver in an inferior car in the standings and yet they keep paying him to do that.

The "direct evidence" (not sure why you put it in quotes but I'll go with it) is the fact that Daniel was the stronger of the pair when he and Vettel were teammates. If that isn't direct evidence please tell me what is? I mean that genuinely.

Perhaps Vettel will get the job done for them in the end and all will work out but if it doesn't, they will have to acknowledge that they didn't maximize their chances.
Re the bit in bold
Ferrari often cause this with their strategy choices, when they appear to be using Kimi on track to help Seb (may not be their plan but does seem the obvious reason)

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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by sandman1347 »

mds wrote:
sandman1347 wrote: There are a whole lot of unsupported assumptions in this post. If "the team comes first" at Ferrari then wouldn't they prioritize the WCC and not the WDC? Wouldn't they urgently look to replace an under-performing driver? Kimi has been at Ferrari for 5 years in this second stint and he hasn't even won a single race. He also consistently finishes behind at least one driver in an inferior car in the standings and yet they keep paying him to do that.
That the team comes first at Ferrari isn't an unsupported assumption - if you think it is then you really need to look at all of Ferrari's history, past and present. No driver is ever bigger than the team at Ferrari. That doesn't mean they prioritize the WCC by default, in fact I think they want to get the WDC more than the WCC, but then the importance of winning a WDC even for a team is pretty high as drivers usually get more focus.

As I said, they are not fools. Why on earth keep Vettel when they think another man could do the job better? Give me one solid argument for that?
The "direct evidence" (not sure why you put it in quotes but I'll go with it) is the fact that Daniel was the stronger of the pair when he and Vettel were teammates. If that isn't direct evidence please tell me what is? I mean that genuinely.
Evidence is material that goes towards proving something. The evidence in this case is evidence for Ricciardo being better than Vettel in 2014. I do not consider that direct evidence for 2018, rather indirect, but that put aside my opinion on that doesn't matter. Ferrari's opinion does. And their decision at this point is quite clear.
Perhaps Vettel will get the job done for them in the end and all will work out but if it doesn't, they will have to acknowledge that they didn't maximize their chances.
They won't have to acknowledge anything - they have their reasons today to decide what they decide. Working with Vettel and seeing what he is doing, probably supports their idea that he is the best man for the job. The data points on which these decision have been based upon are set in stone, they are what they are and they won't change.

Suppose next year he goes on a rampage where he doesn't finish any of the first ten races of the year , then obviously the decision will be not to proceed with him, which will be valid at that point in time.
More assumptions. You assume that they "are not stupid" (presumably that they cannot be making a mistake with their overall decision). You assume that their decision not to sign Daniel is data-driven. You are making a ton of assertions without any real evidence behind them. You seem to not realize that Ferrari, as a team, have more often been a soap opera than champions. I'd like you to consider the possibility that they might be wrong or dysfunctional or motivated by commercial interests, etc. Just consider the possibility that Ferrari are not handling everything perfectly because the evidence actually suggests that that is the case.

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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by pokerman »

DOLOMITE wrote:but if you're "only" as good as you're last race, how would the voting look now I wonder?...
That often happens and it's silly, so re sign Kimi then soon after he performs how he has the past few years.
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Re: Raikkonen: Should He Stay Or Should He Go?

Post by pokerman »

mds wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:Placating Vettel should actually not supersede winning the championship. If Vettel were winning titles for them then by all means I would say don't rock the boat but that's not what's happening. They haven't gotten over the hump but yet they are complacent. With Ricciardo on the market, they showed no interest. I find that bizarre when they could easily have signed him and when there is such direct evidence that he would likely be an upgrade from what they have. Remember, they haven't won...
Well, apparently they believe in Vettel and believe him to offer them the best shot at winning a title. Ferrari are not stupid, and at Ferrari the team comes first - if they believe Ricciardo would have been a definite upgrade then they would have plunged for it. But apparently they don't and that "direct evidence" to them probably isn't that convincing.
Do you really believe they decided a driver that beat Vettel was not an upgrade on Kimi?
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