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I can see Mercedes taking risks this weekend if the Ferrari and Renault upgrades present tangible lap time improvements.

If its the last race the engine has to do - could we see if whacked up to 11?

M44 wrote:I can see Mercedes taking risks this weekend if the Ferrari and Renault upgrades present tangible lap time improvements.

If its the last race the engine has to do - could we see if whacked up to 11?

I think that might present more risk than reward. Turning up an engine that's already at the end of its life may increase the chance of a DNF for one or both cars. They'd probably settle for a podium, or even just behind, rather than no points at all. And don't forget Ricciardo is due to be hit with some hefty grid penalties, which may remove him from contention

There again, there's a reason I'm not a paid F1 strategist...

Zoue wrote:

Llotyhy wrote:It's not just the new spec power unit for Ferrari. It's also the fact that Merc will be using the power unit that has been in the car since March. Ferrari's pu will be comfortably better this weekend.

Also very interested to see what Honda will bring. 40hp would be huge.

I red another report which said it was 27bhp, but even that was speculation and I can't find anything from Honda themselves

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... e-1044804/

Either are a massive jump if true, hope it isn't a self detonation upgrade though...

Still think McLaren would have been better long term with Honda than Renault!

dompclarke wrote:

Zoue wrote:

Llotyhy wrote:It's not just the new spec power unit for Ferrari. It's also the fact that Merc will be using the power unit that has been in the car since March. Ferrari's pu will be comfortably better this weekend.

Also very interested to see what Honda will bring. 40hp would be huge.

I red another report which said it was 27bhp, but even that was speculation and I can't find anything from Honda themselves

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... e-1044804/

Either are a massive jump if true, hope it isn't a self detonation upgrade though...

Still think McLaren would have been better long term with Honda than Renault!

yeah I'll be gutted for them if Honda finally come good this year, after putting McLaren through the wringer for the last three. It would be a cruel twist of fate to lose being a Works team just when everything came together

Zoue wrote:

dompclarke wrote:

Zoue wrote:

Llotyhy wrote:It's not just the new spec power unit for Ferrari. It's also the fact that Merc will be using the power unit that has been in the car since March. Ferrari's pu will be comfortably better this weekend.

Also very interested to see what Honda will bring. 40hp would be huge.

I red another report which said it was 27bhp, but even that was speculation and I can't find anything from Honda themselves

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... e-1044804/

Either are a massive jump if true, hope it isn't a self detonation upgrade though...

Still think McLaren would have been better long term with Honda than Renault!

yeah I'll be gutted for them if Honda finally come good this year, after putting McLaren through the wringer for the last three. It would be a cruel twist of fate to lose being a Works team just when everything came together

Who put who through the ringer?

sandman1347 wrote:

Zoue wrote:

dompclarke wrote:

Zoue wrote:

Llotyhy wrote:It's not just the new spec power unit for Ferrari. It's also the fact that Merc will be using the power unit that has been in the car since March. Ferrari's pu will be comfortably better this weekend.

Also very interested to see what Honda will bring. 40hp would be huge.

I red another report which said it was 27bhp, but even that was speculation and I can't find anything from Honda themselves

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... e-1044804/

Either are a massive jump if true, hope it isn't a self detonation upgrade though...

Still think McLaren would have been better long term with Honda than Renault!

yeah I'll be gutted for them if Honda finally come good this year, after putting McLaren through the wringer for the last three. It would be a cruel twist of fate to lose being a Works team just when everything came together

Who put who through the ringer?

the Honda PU was a disaster for three years. Whatever other problems either party had with each other, that should be beyond dispute

Zoue wrote: the Honda PU was a disaster for three years. Whatever other problems either party had with each other, that should be beyond dispute

2016 and mid 2017 Honda was not too bad though about midfield on par with the chasis

sandman1347 wrote:

Zoue wrote:

dompclarke wrote:

Zoue wrote:

Llotyhy wrote:It's not just the new spec power unit for Ferrari. It's also the fact that Merc will be using the power unit that has been in the car since March. Ferrari's pu will be comfortably better this weekend.

Also very interested to see what Honda will bring. 40hp would be huge.

I red another report which said it was 27bhp, but even that was speculation and I can't find anything from Honda themselves

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... e-1044804/

Either are a massive jump if true, hope it isn't a self detonation upgrade though...

Still think McLaren would have been better long term with Honda than Renault!

yeah I'll be gutted for them if Honda finally come good this year, after putting McLaren through the wringer for the last three. It would be a cruel twist of fate to lose being a Works team just when everything came together

Who put who through the ringer?

I'd say that Honda put McLaren through the wringer regarding performance, which made it very difficult for McLaren to adequately estimate their own performance over time - but it wasn't just a one-way street and the working relationship appeared to be very poor. Honda ended up becoming a virtual meme over the course of that relationship.

AravJ wrote:

Zoue wrote: the Honda PU was a disaster for three years. Whatever other problems either party had with each other, that should be beyond dispute

2016 and mid 2017 Honda was not too bad though about midfield on par with the chasis

2016 they had no lean burn and a too small a turbo although it was reliable for the second half of the year at least and it wasn't until Monza 2017 that they had full deployment through their extra harvest technique and the lean burn was working properly so it was more the last third last year.

Since then it's been a proper F1 engine but still a little behind going into Canada but with Renault shelving part of their upgrade and Honda bringing a good one it could change this weekend though.

So I expect Ferrari to have slightly more power this weekend. Curious that a quality issue was spotted for the upgraded Merc PUs, but at least it was spotted in time.

M44 wrote:I can see Mercedes taking risks this weekend if the Ferrari and Renault upgrades present tangible lap time improvements.

If its the last race the engine has to do - could we see if whacked up to 11?

That would be exactly the opposite thing that they would be doing.

AravJ wrote:

Zoue wrote: the Honda PU was a disaster for three years. Whatever other problems either party had with each other, that should be beyond dispute

2016 and mid 2017 Honda was not too bad though about midfield on par with the chasis

It was awful. It just wasn't as awful as previous efforts. How can it be "midfield on par with the chassis"? It was clearly still the worst engine.

Llotyhy wrote:It's not just the new spec power unit for Ferrari. It's also the fact that Merc will be using the power unit that has been in the car since March. Ferrari's pu will be comfortably better this weekend.

Also very interested to see what Honda will bring. 40hp would be huge.

I did actually mean advantage Ferrari from the point of view that Merc will have a PU that has done six races and Ferrari one is new, without considering any potential upgrade for Ferrari. It's something Hamilton is worried about by the sounds of things. Bottas said today the engine was planned to be used again in Hungary which would have been less of a disadvantage than using it here.

Max is getting tired of the questions.. Awkward moment..

https://youtu.be/PcDtCqvNIQU?t=276

JN23 wrote:

Llotyhy wrote:It's not just the new spec power unit for Ferrari. It's also the fact that Merc will be using the power unit that has been in the car since March. Ferrari's pu will be comfortably better this weekend.

Also very interested to see what Honda will bring. 40hp would be huge.

I did actually mean advantage Ferrari from the point of view that Merc will have a PU that has done six races and Ferrari one is new, without considering any potential upgrade for Ferrari. It's something Hamilton is worried about by the sounds of things. Bottas said today the engine was planned to be used again in Hungary which would have been less of a disadvantage than using it here.

Should be an easy win for Ferrari and Vettel this weekend. Merc don't stand a chance with an old engine that has no upgrade. Another damage limitation weekend for Hamilton.

AravJ wrote:

Zoue wrote: the Honda PU was a disaster for three years. Whatever other problems either party had with each other, that should be beyond dispute

2016 and mid 2017 Honda was not too bad though about midfield on par with the chasis

Yes it was very convenient for McLaren to put 100% of the blame onto the Honda engine.

Mr-E wrote:Max is getting tired of the questions.. Awkward moment..

https://youtu.be/PcDtCqvNIQU?t=276

He seemed to leave in a hurry as well.

pokerman wrote:

AravJ wrote:

Zoue wrote: the Honda PU was a disaster for three years. Whatever other problems either party had with each other, that should be beyond dispute

2016 and mid 2017 Honda was not too bad though about midfield on par with the chasis

Yes it was very convenient for McLaren to put 100% of the blame onto the Honda engine.

Even Honda admitted their PU was poor. Let's not rewrite history to pretend otherwise.

The point was simply that after having to endure a sub-standard PU for three years, it would be a bit of a kick in the teeth for McLaren if Honda started to come good just after they finally walked away, handing a rival all the fruits of their three years of development

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

AravJ wrote:

Zoue wrote: the Honda PU was a disaster for three years. Whatever other problems either party had with each other, that should be beyond dispute

2016 and mid 2017 Honda was not too bad though about midfield on par with the chasis

Yes it was very convenient for McLaren to put 100% of the blame onto the Honda engine.

Even Honda admitted their PU was poor. Let's not rewrite history to pretend otherwise.

The point was simply that after having to endure a sub-standard PU for three years, it would be a bit of a kick in the teeth for McLaren if Honda started to come good just after they finally walked away, handing a rival all the fruits of their three years of development

The Honda PU was preventing McLaren from being a top team?

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

AravJ wrote:

Zoue wrote: the Honda PU was a disaster for three years. Whatever other problems either party had with each other, that should be beyond dispute

2016 and mid 2017 Honda was not too bad though about midfield on par with the chasis

Yes it was very convenient for McLaren to put 100% of the blame onto the Honda engine.

Even Honda admitted their PU was poor. Let's not rewrite history to pretend otherwise.

The point was simply that after having to endure a sub-standard PU for three years, it would be a bit of a kick in the teeth for McLaren if Honda started to come good just after they finally walked away, handing a rival all the fruits of their three years of development

The Honda PU was preventing McLaren from being a top team?

It was certainly a significant factor in that. Not everything has to be black and white.

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

AravJ wrote:

Zoue wrote: the Honda PU was a disaster for three years. Whatever other problems either party had with each other, that should be beyond dispute

2016 and mid 2017 Honda was not too bad though about midfield on par with the chasis

Yes it was very convenient for McLaren to put 100% of the blame onto the Honda engine.

Even Honda admitted their PU was poor. Let's not rewrite history to pretend otherwise.

The point was simply that after having to endure a sub-standard PU for three years, it would be a bit of a kick in the teeth for McLaren if Honda started to come good just after they finally walked away, handing a rival all the fruits of their three years of development

So we are just going to pretend that Mclaren using the same engine as redbull now and still look no better than Force India was all Honda.

Considering everyone can tell Redbull is being held back by Renault.

Mclaren was and still is awful fooling people with we have the best chassis only the PU is hoolding us back.

Rockie wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

AravJ wrote:

Zoue wrote: the Honda PU was a disaster for three years. Whatever other problems either party had with each other, that should be beyond dispute

2016 and mid 2017 Honda was not too bad though about midfield on par with the chasis

Yes it was very convenient for McLaren to put 100% of the blame onto the Honda engine.

Even Honda admitted their PU was poor. Let's not rewrite history to pretend otherwise.

The point was simply that after having to endure a sub-standard PU for three years, it would be a bit of a kick in the teeth for McLaren if Honda started to come good just after they finally walked away, handing a rival all the fruits of their three years of development

So we are just going to pretend that Mclaren using the same engine as redbull now and still look no better than Force India was all Honda.

Considering everyone can tell Redbull is being held back by Renault.

Mclaren was and still is awful fooling people with we have the best chassis only the PU is hoolding us back.

Yeah I don't understand why some people still can't accept that fact. Mclaren most likely never had a good chassis. You could spin it however you want and say that this year is not last year blah blah blah... It doesn't work. The current chassis is miles off the best on the grid, and it's obvious that the Honda cars weren't that good either and not just because of Honda.
Seriously, they need to restructure their whole team. Personally, I may sound harsh, but I think the drivers, Bouiller, Promodou, to name a few, should all be replaced. It is just not working. Just blow up the whole thing and start over with fresh blood.

Lotus49 wrote:

Covalent wrote:About those stats... how can traction be a 5 while asphalt grip is 1?

I assume it's two different things being measured like traction being more of a track description of what is important here while asphalt grip is just measuring asphalt grip if you see what I mean.

Slow corners and straights so it's a high traction dependent circuit (5)
Low asphalt grip (1)

I dunno if I'm explaining myself very well here but it's why McLaren are expecting a nightmare,great mechanical grip and straightline speed are key here and they have neither.

STR will pummel them here if Bahrain was any indicator.

No way this is happening. I think they have done great job so far but surely Mclaren should stretch their advantage going into season though it will funny if Honda before the end of the year can overtake Renault lol Renault is still giving them 0.1-0.2sec lap advantage per lap I think and Alonso adding another 0.1-0.2sec. Probably in qualifying the difference is less. My guess is Haas with it upgrades will be 4th best team here. Renault, Mclaren, FI should fight for Q3. Williams was also good in Baku

Rockie wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

AravJ wrote:

Zoue wrote: the Honda PU was a disaster for three years. Whatever other problems either party had with each other, that should be beyond dispute

2016 and mid 2017 Honda was not too bad though about midfield on par with the chasis

Yes it was very convenient for McLaren to put 100% of the blame onto the Honda engine.

Even Honda admitted their PU was poor. Let's not rewrite history to pretend otherwise.

The point was simply that after having to endure a sub-standard PU for three years, it would be a bit of a kick in the teeth for McLaren if Honda started to come good just after they finally walked away, handing a rival all the fruits of their three years of development

So we are just going to pretend that Mclaren using the same engine as redbull now and still look no better than Force India was all Honda.

Considering everyone can tell Redbull is being held back by Renault.

Mclaren was and still is awful fooling people with we have the best chassis only the PU is hoolding us back.

Are we just going to pretend the Honda engine in the back of the STR is the same Honda engine McLaren had for 3 seasons? Post Monza last year is the best Honda did with McLaren and this one has 20kw on it and is more reliable.

McLaren said they lacked to the top chassis's more often than they said otherwise but this is ignored. Generally the people sticking up for the chassis said it was 4th best, 3rd at most in the second half of 2016 which is when James Allen also wrote about it being thought of as 3rd by rival engineers, but this is ignored while people pretend there was a group of people calling it the best.

They changed nose concept, rear suspension and engine change all in one winter, they don't have access to the full chassis dyno, they had their suspension trick taken away from them and they are self admittedly 2 months behind schedule and yet where are they fighting for right now, yep 4th.

It's bad enough people acting like the STR has a 2015 Honda engine in it without people assuming that a poor and behind schedule car in one year means every car that came before it, even the ones before in an entirely different regulation set, were also poor.

It's like no-one remembers Red Bull's start to last year when they were over a second behind because of a correlation issue. I assume that meant the 2015/16 and this years car must be also poor too I suppose because chassis don't fluctuate and upgrades and concept changes and rule tweaks don't exist of course.

Mercedes-Benz wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

Covalent wrote:About those stats... how can traction be a 5 while asphalt grip is 1?

I assume it's two different things being measured like traction being more of a track description of what is important here while asphalt grip is just measuring asphalt grip if you see what I mean.

Slow corners and straights so it's a high traction dependent circuit (5)
Low asphalt grip (1)

I dunno if I'm explaining myself very well here but it's why McLaren are expecting a nightmare,great mechanical grip and straightline speed are key here and they have neither.

STR will pummel them here if Bahrain was any indicator.

No way this is happening. I think they have done great job so far but surely Mclaren should stretch their advantage going into season though it will funny if Honda before the end of the year can overtake Renault lol Renault is still giving them 0.1-0.2sec lap advantage per lap I think and Alonso adding another 0.1-0.2sec. Probably in qualifying the difference is less. My guess is Haas with it upgrades will be 4th best team here. Renault, Mclaren, FI should fight for Q3. Williams was also good in Baku

They were so good in Bahrain though, their low d/f package worked well, they had great traction out of the corners and good top end grunt whereas McLaren are the opposite right now, their new rear suspension is rubbish, low speed corners are a nightmare, mechanical grip looks poor, in S3 Spain and Monaco they were further away than what they were to the top teams in the higher speed corner sectors like 1 in Mon and 1+2 in Spain.

They've got drag issues and poor traction and Alonso's praying for rain, that's never a good sign. Meanwhile STR have got a chassis upgrade and engine upgrade coming and they were mighty on the last point and squirt circuit so I honestly think they'll do them over big time here again, like Bahrain basically. Hass could be a threat to them though yeah, they get the Ferrari update I think.

McLaren's issues aren't going to be addressed until Silverstone apparently but I'm not sure if that's drag related or mechanical grip. They also look a bit bare in the bargeboards still compared to the top guys as well.

Typical, just saw this from Alonso who seems much more upbeat all of a sudden...(From Marca)

"On paper maybe this is not an ideal circuit for us, but at the same time, with the improvement of the engine and with some new aerodynamic piece that we will premiere, we improve on track according to the simulations, I think it could be a good weekend"

So maybe you'll be right M-B, I was unaware they had chassis upgrades coming so maybe that'll help, who knows.

Ricciardo will be avoiding a grid penalty as Red Bull will be swapping the MGU-K which was used in China.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/head ... anada.html

Lotus49 wrote:

Rockie wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

AravJ wrote:
2016 and mid 2017 Honda was not too bad though about midfield on par with the chasis

Yes it was very convenient for McLaren to put 100% of the blame onto the Honda engine.

Even Honda admitted their PU was poor. Let's not rewrite history to pretend otherwise.

The point was simply that after having to endure a sub-standard PU for three years, it would be a bit of a kick in the teeth for McLaren if Honda started to come good just after they finally walked away, handing a rival all the fruits of their three years of development

So we are just going to pretend that Mclaren using the same engine as redbull now and still look no better than Force India was all Honda.

Considering everyone can tell Redbull is being held back by Renault.

Mclaren was and still is awful fooling people with we have the best chassis only the PU is hoolding us back.

Are we just going to pretend the Honda engine in the back of the STR is the same Honda engine McLaren had for 3 seasons? Post Monza last year is the best Honda did with McLaren and this one has 20kw on it and is more reliable.

McLaren said they lacked to the top chassis's more often than they said otherwise but this is ignored. Generally the people sticking up for the chassis said it was 4th best, 3rd at most in the second half of 2016 which is when James Allen also wrote about it being thought of as 3rd by rival engineers, but this is ignored while people pretend there was a group of people calling it the best.

They changed nose concept, rear suspension and engine change all in one winter, they don't have access to the full chassis dyno, they had their suspension trick taken away from them and they are self admittedly 2 months behind schedule and yet where are they fighting for right now, yep 4th.

It's bad enough people acting like the STR has a 2015 Honda engine in it without people assuming that a poor and behind schedule car in one year means every car that came before it, even the ones before in an entirely different regulation set, were also poor.

It's like no-one remembers Red Bull's start to last year when they were over a second behind because of a correlation issue. I assume that meant the 2015/16 and this years car must be also poor too I suppose because chassis don't fluctuate and upgrades and concept changes and rule tweaks don't exist of course.

Not much to add to that!

Lotus49 wrote:It's like no-one remembers Red Bull's start to last year when they were over a second behind because of a correlation issue. I assume that meant the 2015/16 and this years car must be also poor too I suppose because chassis don't fluctuate and upgrades and concept changes and rule tweaks don't exist of course.

The 2015 car wasn't good, but that just proves your point. Was anyone pointing at the 2015 RBR and calling it proof that the 2014 chassis wasn't a match for Mercedes? No.

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

AravJ wrote:

Zoue wrote: the Honda PU was a disaster for three years. Whatever other problems either party had with each other, that should be beyond dispute

2016 and mid 2017 Honda was not too bad though about midfield on par with the chasis

Yes it was very convenient for McLaren to put 100% of the blame onto the Honda engine.

Even Honda admitted their PU was poor. Let's not rewrite history to pretend otherwise.

The point was simply that after having to endure a sub-standard PU for three years, it would be a bit of a kick in the teeth for McLaren if Honda started to come good just after they finally walked away, handing a rival all the fruits of their three years of development

The Honda PU was preventing McLaren from being a top team?

There's a simple point being made here, which seems to be escaping you and some others. And that's that the Honda PU has been terrible for the last three years - irrespective of any other issues the team may have had - and it would be frustrating for McLaren if, after having had to endure that for three years, Honda finally looked to be getting it right after they divorced and lost Works status. In other words, McLaren would have become Red Bull's development team, which would undoubtedly be frustrating for them.

That's it.

Power unit components used upto now:


Source - www.imgur.com

Why are so many Ferrari teams on the 2nd components already? I know Kimi's was a failure, but were the others planned given that the 5 out of 6 of Ferrari powered drivers are on component 2 with the exception being Vettel.

Looking at that table it seems like Mercedes engines are the only ones on schedule to use 3 engines. I always thought it was better to use 4 anyway. The top 3 teams can Just use the 4th engine in a late season race when you look to be finishing 4th-6th anyway, start from the back and finish 5th-7th.

The weather during the weekend promises to be good & sunny. There might be some showers during Friday evening but other than that the weekend is poised to be dry & good weather will be all around.
https://www.racefans.net/2018/06/08/201 ... x-weather/

That Merc engine still looks mighty strong

A gorgeous overview of this magnificent track. Looks like as if hardly any thinking went into forming the layout:


Source - www.imgur.com

So it seems only Vettel is getting the upgraded Ferrari engine in Canada, since Kimi's earlier engine failure meant he's out of sync with the program. That's the ICE - Kimi is getting a new turbo

AnRs wrote:That Merc engine still looks mighty strong

How can you tell that already?

Zoue wrote:So it seems only Vettel is getting the upgraded Ferrari engine in Canada, since Kimi's earlier engine failure meant he's out of sync with the program. That's the ICE - Kimi is getting a new turbo

Not really worth it for an extra 5hp.

Bad start for Hulk.

Herb wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

AravJ wrote: 2016 and mid 2017 Honda was not too bad though about midfield on par with the chasis

Yes it was very convenient for McLaren to put 100% of the blame onto the Honda engine.

Even Honda admitted their PU was poor. Let's not rewrite history to pretend otherwise.

The point was simply that after having to endure a sub-standard PU for three years, it would be a bit of a kick in the teeth for McLaren if Honda started to come good just after they finally walked away, handing a rival all the fruits of their three years of development

The Honda PU was preventing McLaren from being a top team?

It was certainly a significant factor in that. Not everything has to be black and white.

Indeed but I can't look past the 100% fault put on Honda by McLaren for not winning races.