Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

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Which of these fine pilots is the best?

Valtteri Bottas
10
14%
Nico Rosberg
64
86%
 
Total votes: 74

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Invade
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Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by Invade »

Who is better? Why? What are their strengths and weaknesses?

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Lotus49
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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by Lotus49 »

Rosberg.

More proven over a season and better over one lap. Bottas better at keeping his nose clean.

What I mean by more proven is that last year Bottas started pretty well too, I think he was in a similar position to what he is now against Lewis, but he fell away pretty dramatically after Monaco and only really impressed again over the last couple of weekends.

I'm not expecting him to hang with Lewis across the entire season swapping wins to be fair but he just needs to be closer than what he was for that spell last year where only really Hungary Q and Austria did he look like he did at the start of the year.
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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by Exediron »

Rosberg, and not by a small margin either.

I think Rosberg has better pure pace, and has similar racecraft. Both of them are naturally too conservative in their overtaking, but Rosberg was able to find a way past that in 2016, becoming in the process a somewhat thuggish overtaker. If Bottas is able to find a way to be more aggressive with his overtaking while staying clean I would give him better racecraft, but at the moment he's only really clean because he doesn't try any moves.
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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by KingVoid »

Qualifying
Rosberg is better here, his average gap to Hamilton was only 0.100s over four seasons. Bottas’ mean gap is over twice that.

Race Pace
Bottas has a tendency to lack pace in at least one stint every race. Rosberg’s race pace was better and more consistent. I feel that Rosberg was better at pumping in fast laps when he needed it most.

Race Craft
Rosberg was clumsy sometimes but did not lack any aggression. Bottas is cleaner but lacks aggression. Rosberg probably would have had a lunge at Vettel in Bahrain.

Rain
Neither are particularly good in the rain. Rosberg had a couple of good wet sessions against Hamilton like Brazil 2013, Belgium 2014 and USA 2015. Bottas was even slower than Massa in the wet when they were teammates. I’m going to give this to Rosberg too.


Rosberg was really just an upgraded version of Bottas. He had similar strengths and weaknesses, he was just better.

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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by Remmirath »

I'd say, on the whole, Rosberg was definitely better. Certainly in terms of both qualifying and race pace. I do think his race craft could have been better, but then, I'd say the same of Bottas -- only they have different problems.
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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by Siao7 »

Until Bottas gets a WDC while partnering a great driver like Hamilton, I'll say Rosberg!

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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by Rockie »

Rosberg and it is not even close.

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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by Invade »

I'd be interested to hear someone make a case for Bottas. He does have 3 votes so far, after all.

Warheart01

Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by Warheart01 »

Fine, I'll admit, it's Rosberg...
However (yes I'm going here) the way he won his WDC wasn't on merit, even though (yes, I'll admit this too...) he is probably good enough to win one on merit.

2016:
Lewis Hamilton poles: 12, wins: 10
Nico Rosberg poles: 8, wins: 9

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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by Siao7 »

Warheart01 wrote:Fine, I'll admit, it's Rosberg...
However (yes I'm going here) the way he won his WDC wasn't on merit, even though (yes, I'll admit this too...) he is probably good enough to win one on merit.

2016:
Lewis Hamilton poles: 12, wins: 10
Nico Rosberg poles: 8, wins: 9
I think you are opening a very big can of worms there, so better to keep it on topic here. As much as I'd like to hear why he didn't win on merit... Maybe open another thread (that will be shut pretty quickly I guess!)

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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

Warheart01 wrote:Fine, I'll admit, it's Rosberg...
However (yes I'm going here) the way he won his WDC wasn't on merit, even though (yes, I'll admit this too...) he is probably good enough to win one on merit.

2016:
Lewis Hamilton poles: 12, wins: 10
Nico Rosberg poles: 8, wins: 9
Those stats don't really help your point. How those races were won is more important but looking at those stats with no context it seems perfectly reasonable that Rosberg could have won purely on merit with no luck/outside influence involved.

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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by Zoue »

I think the stats can be incredibly misleading. Romberg could afford to stop for a toilet break halfway through his lap and still end up on the front row, while Bottas has never had that luxury. It’s much easier to look good when your car is in an entirely different formula. When Romberg was in the Merc his he had an LMP1 to everybody else’s LMP2.

I think Romberg was quick, but I barely rate his race craft. In that basis I’m going to give it to Bottas. I think he’s too cautious, like Rosberg was, but as of yet he hasn’t shown himself to be clumsy. I wouldn’t call either a top tier driver.

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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by sandman1347 »

Rosberg is substantially better than Bottas. For my money, Rosberg is just about on par with Vettel and only a half step behind the likes of Hamilton and Alonso.

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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by babararacucudada »

Bottas has been no risk to Hamilton so far regarding the World Championship - I don't foresee that changing. Hamilton is very relaxed about having Bottas as his team mate.

Rosberg was able to keep Hamilton worried.

In 2016, when Rosberg had won 9 races and Hamilton had won 6 (and Rosberg had moved aside to let Hamilton past to win at Monaco) - Rosberg didn't need to win any more races and could afford to finish third in one race. Rosberg then drove to reduce the risk of not winning the World Championship.

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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by AnRs »

Rosberg beat Hamilton in his last year, but IMO Rosberg showed terrible racecraft over their years, and Bottas, if he is allowed to take it to Hamilton will be better at that.

But IMO Merc doesn't have the best driver couple anymore, when the car isn't dominant it is more obvious.

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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by Siao7 »

Zoue wrote:I think the stats can be incredibly misleading. Romberg could afford to stop for a toilet break halfway through his lap and still end up on the front row, while Bottas has never had that luxury. It’s much easier to look good when your car is in an entirely different formula. When Romberg was in the Merc his he had an LMP1 to everybody else’s LMP2.

I think Romberg was quick, but I barely rate his race craft. In that basis I’m going to give it to Bottas. I think he’s too cautious, like Rosberg was, but as of yet he hasn’t shown himself to be clumsy. I wouldn’t call either a top tier driver.
That's a good point, the Merc was pretty much competing itself in the Rosberg-Hamilton era, Bottas has the Ferrari in the mix as well. Maybe add RB there too.

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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by F1_Ernie »

babararacucudada wrote:Bottas has been no risk to Hamilton so far regarding the World Championship - I don't foresee that changing. Hamilton is very relaxed about having Bottas as his team mate.

Rosberg was able to keep Hamilton worried.

In 2016, when Rosberg had won 9 races and Hamilton had won 6 (and Rosberg had moved aside to let Hamilton past to win at Monaco) - Rosberg didn't need to win any more races and could afford to finish third in one race. Rosberg then drove to reduce the risk of not winning the World Championship.
Bottas hasn't had a bad year, he would be well in the world championship but for one bit of bad luck. Would be interesting to see how Rosberg would do against 2 cars which have been equal and sometimes better. The Rosberg and Hamilton years was very unique circumstances where quali was important and if one driver had a breakdown the other car would defiantly win, this year there are no guarantees.
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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by Lt. Drebin »

babararacucudada wrote:Bottas has been no risk to Hamilton so far regarding the World Championship - I don't foresee that changing. Hamilton is very relaxed about having Bottas as his team mate.

Rosberg was able to keep Hamilton worried.

In 2016, when Rosberg had won 9 races and Hamilton had won 6 (and Rosberg had moved aside to let Hamilton past to win at Monaco) - Rosberg didn't need to win any more races and could afford to finish third in one race. Rosberg then drove to reduce the risk of not winning the World Championship.
This.

And on top of that Rosberg beat Hamilton in places that were already established as Hamilton's traditional tracks, such as Spa, Monza and Suzuka.
Also, Rosberg was able to beat Verstappen when mattered most (Abu Dhabi), while Hamilton failed to do so (in Suzuka).

Bottas is, nonetheless, a very good driver. I have impression that he upped his game this year, but it is not seen in the standings due to his terrible luck.
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Warheart01

Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by Warheart01 »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:Fine, I'll admit, it's Rosberg...
However (yes I'm going here) the way he won his WDC wasn't on merit, even though (yes, I'll admit this too...) he is probably good enough to win one on merit.

2016:
Lewis Hamilton poles: 12, wins: 10
Nico Rosberg poles: 8, wins: 9
Those stats don't really help your point. How those races were won is more important but looking at those stats with no context it seems perfectly reasonable that Rosberg could have won purely on merit with no luck/outside influence involved.
How do you mean?
When I see those numbers it's clear who was the better (or more deserving) driver that year. Hamilton got more poles and won more races, but reliability gave it to Rosberg.
Anyway as Siao7 said I'm opening a big can of worms here (it's a bit what I do on this forum...) so I won't dive into it more than this other than being curious on how you view the numbers.

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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

Warheart01 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:Fine, I'll admit, it's Rosberg...
However (yes I'm going here) the way he won his WDC wasn't on merit, even though (yes, I'll admit this too...) he is probably good enough to win one on merit.

2016:
Lewis Hamilton poles: 12, wins: 10
Nico Rosberg poles: 8, wins: 9
Those stats don't really help your point. How those races were won is more important but looking at those stats with no context it seems perfectly reasonable that Rosberg could have won purely on merit with no luck/outside influence involved.
How do you mean?
When I see those numbers it's clear who was the better (or more deserving) driver that year. Hamilton got more poles and won more races, but reliability gave it to Rosberg.
Anyway as Siao7 said I'm opening a big can of worms here (it's a bit what I do on this forum...) so I won't dive into it more than this other than being curious on how you view the numbers.
Yeah, by one race. Driver A with 10 wins and Driver B with 9 wins doesn't strike me as very one sided and it doesn't seem odd at all that driver B could win the championship in that scenario without any additional context.

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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by Siao7 »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:Fine, I'll admit, it's Rosberg...
However (yes I'm going here) the way he won his WDC wasn't on merit, even though (yes, I'll admit this too...) he is probably good enough to win one on merit.

2016:
Lewis Hamilton poles: 12, wins: 10
Nico Rosberg poles: 8, wins: 9
Those stats don't really help your point. How those races were won is more important but looking at those stats with no context it seems perfectly reasonable that Rosberg could have won purely on merit with no luck/outside influence involved.
How do you mean?
When I see those numbers it's clear who was the better (or more deserving) driver that year. Hamilton got more poles and won more races, but reliability gave it to Rosberg.
Anyway as Siao7 said I'm opening a big can of worms here (it's a bit what I do on this forum...) so I won't dive into it more than this other than being curious on how you view the numbers.
Yeah, by one race. Driver A with 10 wins and Driver B with 9 wins doesn't strike me as very one sided and it doesn't seem odd at all that driver B could win the championship in that scenario without any additional context.
Numbers are funny. The most ironic example, another Rosberg, winning by having only 50% of the race wins of the next 5 drivers below him. Same amount of wins as the 11th placed drive...

We've also seen Prost taking the '89 WDC with less wins.

He lost '88 while having more points in total.

Piquet won in '87 with half the wins that Mansell acquired, 3 wins to 6.

And so on...


Point is, the numbers themselves don't tell the truth, not always. Sometimes it's the small stories behind each race. Hamilton sacrificed Spa for new parts. He also had a retirement by engine failure. Rosberg also had to concede a position to team orders. And had his share of glitches and brake problems.

In any case, it's not straight forward, especially when we are taking about 1 more win...

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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by F1_Ernie »

Siao7 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:Fine, I'll admit, it's Rosberg...
However (yes I'm going here) the way he won his WDC wasn't on merit, even though (yes, I'll admit this too...) he is probably good enough to win one on merit.

2016:
Lewis Hamilton poles: 12, wins: 10
Nico Rosberg poles: 8, wins: 9
Those stats don't really help your point. How those races were won is more important but looking at those stats with no context it seems perfectly reasonable that Rosberg could have won purely on merit with no luck/outside influence involved.
How do you mean?
When I see those numbers it's clear who was the better (or more deserving) driver that year. Hamilton got more poles and won more races, but reliability gave it to Rosberg.
Anyway as Siao7 said I'm opening a big can of worms here (it's a bit what I do on this forum...) so I won't dive into it more than this other than being curious on how you view the numbers.
Yeah, by one race. Driver A with 10 wins and Driver B with 9 wins doesn't strike me as very one sided and it doesn't seem odd at all that driver B could win the championship in that scenario without any additional context.
Numbers are funny. The most ironic example, another Rosberg, winning by having only 50% of the race wins of the next 5 drivers below him. Same amount of wins as the 11th placed drive...

We've also seen Prost taking the '89 WDC with less wins.

He lost '88 while having more points in total.

Piquet won in '87 with half the wins that Mansell acquired, 3 wins to 6.

And so on...


Point is, the numbers themselves don't tell the truth, not always. Sometimes it's the small stories behind each race. Hamilton sacrificed Spa for new parts. He also had a retirement by engine failure. Rosberg also had to concede a position to team orders. And had his share of glitches and brake problems.

In any case, it's not straight forward, especially when we are taking about 1 more win...
This is going to go off topic quick but let's not kid ourselves both drivers had the same reliability issues. There was no sacrificing of races either.
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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by Siao7 »

F1_Ernie wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote: Those stats don't really help your point. How those races were won is more important but looking at those stats with no context it seems perfectly reasonable that Rosberg could have won purely on merit with no luck/outside influence involved.
How do you mean?
When I see those numbers it's clear who was the better (or more deserving) driver that year. Hamilton got more poles and won more races, but reliability gave it to Rosberg.
Anyway as Siao7 said I'm opening a big can of worms here (it's a bit what I do on this forum...) so I won't dive into it more than this other than being curious on how you view the numbers.
Yeah, by one race. Driver A with 10 wins and Driver B with 9 wins doesn't strike me as very one sided and it doesn't seem odd at all that driver B could win the championship in that scenario without any additional context.
Numbers are funny. The most ironic example, another Rosberg, winning by having only 50% of the race wins of the next 5 drivers below him. Same amount of wins as the 11th placed drive...

We've also seen Prost taking the '89 WDC with less wins.

He lost '88 while having more points in total.

Piquet won in '87 with half the wins that Mansell acquired, 3 wins to 6.

And so on...


Point is, the numbers themselves don't tell the truth, not always. Sometimes it's the small stories behind each race. Hamilton sacrificed Spa for new parts. He also had a retirement by engine failure. Rosberg also had to concede a position to team orders. And had his share of glitches and brake problems.

In any case, it's not straight forward, especially when we are taking about 1 more win...
This is going to go off topic quick but let's not kid ourselves both drivers had the same reliability issues. There was no sacrificing of races either.
Agreed. At the risk of getting OT I'd argue the Spa thing, as Hamilton did indeed sacrifice his race for parts, however that car was so good that he made it up to 3rd place again, minimal damage really.

Anyway

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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by pokerman »

babararacucudada wrote:Bottas has been no risk to Hamilton so far regarding the World Championship - I don't foresee that changing. Hamilton is very relaxed about having Bottas as his team mate.

Rosberg was able to keep Hamilton worried.

In 2016, when Rosberg had won 9 races and Hamilton had won 6 (and Rosberg had moved aside to let Hamilton past to win at Monaco) - Rosberg didn't need to win any more races and could afford to finish third in one race. Rosberg then drove to reduce the risk of not winning the World Championship.
Rosberg didn't win any of the last 3 races because Hamilton kept out qualifying him.

Hamilton is less worried about Bottas because for one thing he knows Bottas is not going to crash into him or block him in qualifying.
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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by pokerman »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:Fine, I'll admit, it's Rosberg...
However (yes I'm going here) the way he won his WDC wasn't on merit, even though (yes, I'll admit this too...) he is probably good enough to win one on merit.

2016:
Lewis Hamilton poles: 12, wins: 10
Nico Rosberg poles: 8, wins: 9
Those stats don't really help your point. How those races were won is more important but looking at those stats with no context it seems perfectly reasonable that Rosberg could have won purely on merit with no luck/outside influence involved.
How do you mean?
When I see those numbers it's clear who was the better (or more deserving) driver that year. Hamilton got more poles and won more races, but reliability gave it to Rosberg.
Anyway as Siao7 said I'm opening a big can of worms here (it's a bit what I do on this forum...) so I won't dive into it more than this other than being curious on how you view the numbers.
Yeah, by one race. Driver A with 10 wins and Driver B with 9 wins doesn't strike me as very one sided and it doesn't seem odd at all that driver B could win the championship in that scenario without any additional context.
Reliability issues gave 3 wins to Rosberg.
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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by pokerman »

I think it's too early to judge Bottas, 2017 was not representative because he was a last minute addition to the team, let's see how he performs this year.
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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by F1_Ernie »

Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
How do you mean?
When I see those numbers it's clear who was the better (or more deserving) driver that year. Hamilton got more poles and won more races, but reliability gave it to Rosberg.
Anyway as Siao7 said I'm opening a big can of worms here (it's a bit what I do on this forum...) so I won't dive into it more than this other than being curious on how you view the numbers.
Yeah, by one race. Driver A with 10 wins and Driver B with 9 wins doesn't strike me as very one sided and it doesn't seem odd at all that driver B could win the championship in that scenario without any additional context.
Numbers are funny. The most ironic example, another Rosberg, winning by having only 50% of the race wins of the next 5 drivers below him. Same amount of wins as the 11th placed drive...

We've also seen Prost taking the '89 WDC with less wins.

He lost '88 while having more points in total.

Piquet won in '87 with half the wins that Mansell acquired, 3 wins to 6.

And so on...


Point is, the numbers themselves don't tell the truth, not always. Sometimes it's the small stories behind each race. Hamilton sacrificed Spa for new parts. He also had a retirement by engine failure. Rosberg also had to concede a position to team orders. And had his share of glitches and brake problems.

In any case, it's not straight forward, especially when we are taking about 1 more win...
This is going to go off topic quick but let's not kid ourselves both drivers had the same reliability issues. There was no sacrificing of races either.
Agreed. At the risk of getting OT I'd argue the Spa thing, as Hamilton did indeed sacrifice his race for parts, however that car was so good that he made it up to 3rd place again, minimal damage really.

Anyway
The team had to take new parts at one grand prix, it wasnt a choice but a must and Spa is obviously the best option. The reason Hamilton had to take another penalty was through bad reliability in the first place. When one Mercedes is out of contention the other can drive with no worries, then one of them engines blew anyway.

I was just making the point a glitch here or there is nothing close to equal.
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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by Siao7 »

pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:Fine, I'll admit, it's Rosberg...
However (yes I'm going here) the way he won his WDC wasn't on merit, even though (yes, I'll admit this too...) he is probably good enough to win one on merit.

2016:
Lewis Hamilton poles: 12, wins: 10
Nico Rosberg poles: 8, wins: 9
Those stats don't really help your point. How those races were won is more important but looking at those stats with no context it seems perfectly reasonable that Rosberg could have won purely on merit with no luck/outside influence involved.
How do you mean?
When I see those numbers it's clear who was the better (or more deserving) driver that year. Hamilton got more poles and won more races, but reliability gave it to Rosberg.
Anyway as Siao7 said I'm opening a big can of worms here (it's a bit what I do on this forum...) so I won't dive into it more than this other than being curious on how you view the numbers.
Yeah, by one race. Driver A with 10 wins and Driver B with 9 wins doesn't strike me as very one sided and it doesn't seem odd at all that driver B could win the championship in that scenario without any additional context.
Reliability issues gave 3 wins to Rosberg.
Then you should also apply this both ways, for example someone else's reliability (or unreliability) gave Hamilton the Monaco win.

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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by ReservoirDog »

I'd take Rosberg over Bottas any way.

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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

Rosberg but the margin isn't quite as big as some say here.

Rosberg is a unique character in that while he's always pushing close to the limits of what a car can do, the performance of the guy in the other car can motivate him to push just that much further and squeeze that teeny bit more here and there to try and match and beat the other guy. With Michael it was less so because while he was trying to be the top guy, he was also learning and absorbing a great deal from the meister. With Hamilton, he was immediately being out-edged consistently initially, but it ate away at him and he saought to refocus and fight even harder and was really close to Hamilton consistently in a way he'd never been able to before in his career. Then he began to focus a bit more on qualifying and worked his tail off to develop into a supreme qualifier.

Bottas on the other hand simply believes he is good enough and just has to drive within himself and his capabilities and feels that if he does everything right, he can be the top finisher for his team. And as we've witnessed, sometimes he leaves a hair more on the table as he'd rather weigh on the side of caution and get the assured points rather than push the envelope and go wheel to wheel.
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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by pokerman »

Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote: Those stats don't really help your point. How those races were won is more important but looking at those stats with no context it seems perfectly reasonable that Rosberg could have won purely on merit with no luck/outside influence involved.
How do you mean?
When I see those numbers it's clear who was the better (or more deserving) driver that year. Hamilton got more poles and won more races, but reliability gave it to Rosberg.
Anyway as Siao7 said I'm opening a big can of worms here (it's a bit what I do on this forum...) so I won't dive into it more than this other than being curious on how you view the numbers.
Yeah, by one race. Driver A with 10 wins and Driver B with 9 wins doesn't strike me as very one sided and it doesn't seem odd at all that driver B could win the championship in that scenario without any additional context.
Reliability issues gave 3 wins to Rosberg.
Then you should also apply this both ways, for example someone else's reliability (or unreliability) gave Hamilton the Monaco win.
Was Rosberg going to win the race?

We are comparing Hamilton with Rosberg.
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pokerman
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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by pokerman »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:Rosberg but the margin isn't quite as big as some say here.

Rosberg is a unique character in that while he's always pushing close to the limits of what a car can do, the performance of the guy in the other car can motivate him to push just that much further and squeeze that teeny bit more here and there to try and match and beat the other guy. With Michael it was less so because while he was trying to be the top guy, he was also learning and absorbing a great deal from the meister. With Hamilton, he was immediately being out-edged consistently initially, but it ate away at him and he saought to refocus and fight even harder and was really close to Hamilton consistently in a way he'd never been able to before in his career. Then he began to focus a bit more on qualifying and worked his tail off to develop into a supreme qualifier.

Bottas on the other hand simply believes he is good enough and just has to drive within himself and his capabilities and feels that if he does everything right, he can be the top finisher for his team. And as we've witnessed, sometimes he leaves a hair more on the table as he'd rather weigh on the side of caution and get the assured points rather than push the envelope and go wheel to wheel.
Rosberg was a top notch qualifier before Hamilton joined Mercedes.
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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by F1_Ernie »

pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
How do you mean?
When I see those numbers it's clear who was the better (or more deserving) driver that year. Hamilton got more poles and won more races, but reliability gave it to Rosberg.
Anyway as Siao7 said I'm opening a big can of worms here (it's a bit what I do on this forum...) so I won't dive into it more than this other than being curious on how you view the numbers.
Yeah, by one race. Driver A with 10 wins and Driver B with 9 wins doesn't strike me as very one sided and it doesn't seem odd at all that driver B could win the championship in that scenario without any additional context.
Reliability issues gave 3 wins to Rosberg.
Then you should also apply this both ways, for example someone else's reliability (or unreliability) gave Hamilton the Monaco win.
Was Rosberg going to win the race?

We are comparing Hamilton with Rosberg.
Malaysia which cost Hamilton the lead of the championship, that was a massive points swing.
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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by pokerman »

F1_Ernie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote: Yeah, by one race. Driver A with 10 wins and Driver B with 9 wins doesn't strike me as very one sided and it doesn't seem odd at all that driver B could win the championship in that scenario without any additional context.
Reliability issues gave 3 wins to Rosberg.
Then you should also apply this both ways, for example someone else's reliability (or unreliability) gave Hamilton the Monaco win.
Was Rosberg going to win the race?

We are comparing Hamilton with Rosberg.
Malaysia which cost Hamilton the lead of the championship, that was a massive points swing.
The engine blow up basically gifted the title to Rosberg.
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2014: Champion
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2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by kleefton »

When I think of Rosberg, I am reminded of a very technically savvy driver, a driver that will beat you with knowledge rather than pure talent. His affinity for knowing how to set up cars for particular conditions was what led him to some early success against Hamilton on Saturdays. It also explains why he was such a better qualifier than a racer. His race craft was at first quite subpar; he admitted himself that he is not the racer that Hamilton is naturally. But he found a way to get better at it, although it never looked good, but he became fiercer in wheel to wheel combat.

Bottas might have more natural speed than Nico, but I don't think he is nearly as technically savvy. He is consistent, but safe also. He is good at defending his position, but overtaking is not a strength. I need to see more from him this year in order for me to make a final call on whether he is better or worse than Nico. The good thing about Bottas though is that nothing ever seems to faze him. He has the same attitude no matter what. Can't say the same about Nico, who had his share of temper tantrums and really fell for Hamilton's mind games quite a bit.

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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by JN23 »

Lt. Drebin wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:Bottas has been no risk to Hamilton so far regarding the World Championship - I don't foresee that changing. Hamilton is very relaxed about having Bottas as his team mate.

Rosberg was able to keep Hamilton worried.

In 2016, when Rosberg had won 9 races and Hamilton had won 6 (and Rosberg had moved aside to let Hamilton past to win at Monaco) - Rosberg didn't need to win any more races and could afford to finish third in one race. Rosberg then drove to reduce the risk of not winning the World Championship.
This.

And on top of that Rosberg beat Hamilton in places that were already established as Hamilton's traditional tracks, such as Spa, Monza and Suzuka.
Also, Rosberg was able to beat Verstappen when mattered most (Abu Dhabi), while Hamilton failed to do so (in Suzuka).

Bottas is, nonetheless, a very good driver. I have impression that he upped his game this year, but it is not seen in the standings due to his terrible luck.
I don't agree with that.

Spa - started last due to taking engine penalties, so not a fair comparison,.
Monza - out qualified Rosberg by almost 0.5 seconds and was quicker most of the weekend from memory. A terrible start cost him the win.
Suzuka - was this a Hamilton track? Rosberg beat him in 2014, 2015 and 2016 in qualifying. Hamilton beat him in the race in rain in 2014 (we all know that isn't Rosberg's strongest suit) and beat him at the start in 2015.

Anyway, I think Rosberg is better than Bottas but there isn't too much in it.

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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by Rockie »

kleefton wrote:When I think of Rosberg, I am reminded of a very technically savvy driver, a driver that will beat you with knowledge rather than pure talent. His affinity for knowing how to set up cars for particular conditions was what led him to some early success against Hamilton on Saturdays. It also explains why he was such a better qualifier than a racer. His race craft was at first quite subpar; he admitted himself that he is not the racer that Hamilton is naturally. But he found a way to get better at it, although it never looked good, but he became fiercer in wheel to wheel combat.

Bottas might have more natural speed than Nico, but I don't think he is nearly as technically savvy. He is consistent, but safe also. He is good at defending his position, but overtaking is not a strength. I need to see more from him this year in order for me to make a final call on whether he is better or worse than Nico. The good thing about Bottas though is that nothing ever seems to faze him. He has the same attitude no matter what. Can't say the same about Nico, who had his share of temper tantrums and really fell for Hamilton's mind games quite a bit.
Where do people get this idea that talent comes naturally?

You learn everything you are good at, the amount of time dedicated to it is what separates those who are successful from those who are not.

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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by KingVoid »

Zoue wrote:I think the stats can be incredibly misleading. Romberg could afford to stop for a toilet break halfway through his lap and still end up on the front row, while Bottas has never had that luxury. It’s much easier to look good when your car is in an entirely different formula. When Romberg was in the Merc his he had an LMP1 to everybody else’s LMP2.
Why do people act like Rosberg’s career began in 2014.

He was teammates with Hamilton in 2013 when Mercedes had the 2nd-3rd best car and ran him very close.

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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by kleefton »

Rockie wrote:
kleefton wrote:When I think of Rosberg, I am reminded of a very technically savvy driver, a driver that will beat you with knowledge rather than pure talent. His affinity for knowing how to set up cars for particular conditions was what led him to some early success against Hamilton on Saturdays. It also explains why he was such a better qualifier than a racer. His race craft was at first quite subpar; he admitted himself that he is not the racer that Hamilton is naturally. But he found a way to get better at it, although it never looked good, but he became fiercer in wheel to wheel combat.

Bottas might have more natural speed than Nico, but I don't think he is nearly as technically savvy. He is consistent, but safe also. He is good at defending his position, but overtaking is not a strength. I need to see more from him this year in order for me to make a final call on whether he is better or worse than Nico. The good thing about Bottas though is that nothing ever seems to faze him. He has the same attitude no matter what. Can't say the same about Nico, who had his share of temper tantrums and really fell for Hamilton's mind games quite a bit.
Where do people get this idea that talent comes naturally?

You learn everything you are good at, the amount of time dedicated to it is what separates those who are successful from those who are not.
It is the truth in just about any field of work. Hard work alone can only get you so far. You need the natural talent. There are just those who are born with more natural ability than others. Do you think Lionel Messi is the hardest working soccer player in the world? Why aren't there more Lionel Messis then?

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Re: Bottas and Rosberg - Who ya got?

Post by Exediron »

kleefton wrote:
Rockie wrote:[Where do people get this idea that talent comes naturally?

You learn everything you are good at, the amount of time dedicated to it is what separates those who are successful from those who are not.
It is the truth in just about any field of work. Hard work alone can only get you so far. You need the natural talent. There are just those who are born with more natural ability than others. Do you think Lionel Messi is the hardest working soccer player in the world? Why aren't there more Lionel Messis then?
Ability = Talent * Effort.

To say that talent doesn't exist is nonsensical; some people will never be good at something no matter how hard they try, and some people pick it up from day one. But to become at the top of any field you need both. The talented ones rise to the top of the top, however, because at the top everyone works hard.
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