planetf1.com

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote: I don't think you read my post properly, as you'll see that I specifically separated those who are bending the rules and those like VAG who cheated.

I think the rest of your post is getting into semantics territory. If the rules aren't written well and allow ambiguity, then taking advantage of that ambiguity isn't cheating in my book. However if someone does something with the deliberate intention of circumventing the rules - VAG again - then that's clearly cheating, not misinterpretation. I think it's quite easy to differentiate the two.

Yeah some things aren't taking advantage of grey areas but are just out and out cheating.

Who decides which is which?

From where I'm sitting it seems to be if Mercedes are doing it then it's just clever engineering around grey areas (oil burn,hpc suspension and whatever it is MP is talking about) and if Ferrari are doing it then it's blatant cheating (oil burn,exhaust blowing and extra ers)

All passed legality checks and deemed legal during racing weekends, none dq'd and yet are treated entirely differently by some, the oil burn being the perfect example despite being the exact same thing.

We are not talking about a grey area here though we are talking about a FIA sensor that monitors that the electrical energy being used doesn't exceed 160hp being bypassed by Ferrari, if true?

Yes and there's a fuel flow sensor being bypassed by adding oil to the combustion process if you believe certain theories on how the oil burn could be being done.

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Lotus49 wrote: Who decides which is which?

From where I'm sitting it seems to be if Mercedes are doing it then it's just clever engineering around grey areas (oil burn,hpc suspension and whatever it is MP is talking about) and if Ferrari are doing it then it's blatant cheating (oil burn,exhaust blowing and extra ers)

All passed legality checks and deemed legal during racing weekends, none dq'd and yet are treated entirely differently by some, the oil burn being the perfect example despite being the exact same thing.

Very true, I think it was RB last year that went to the FIA with this. So same scenario, a team going to the FIA with a suspicion and the FIA investigating. I also remember a very vocal journo from the Netherlands, Olav Mol I think, very respected with many "inside" connections, coming forward and saying that he was 1000% sure that the Mercs were burning oil on purpose.

But I don't think we had anyone shouting Mercs are cheaters.

The first suspicions were only about Mercedes in 2014. An engineer with Ferrari connections called Benzing wrote about Mercedes only being able to hit the peak power they were if they were circumnavigating the fuel flow or using illegal fuel but no-one really paid any attention.

Then Ferrari signed the Mercedes combustion chief Cedric Cornebois in the summer 2014. He started on Jan.1st and oil burn is being discussed on Ferrari forums just a few days later but Benzing shuts up about it from there on in. And then the FIA are testing for oil burn but only on Mercedes and Ferrari cars from Spain 2015.

It's always stemmed from Mercedes but no-one in the English speaking press cared until Ferrari started getting more from it last year in Canada and Ferrari were accused of using their auxiliary tank to top up what they were burning.

Because stealing £100 is fine if you're both doing it but God forbid one of you steals an extra 20 on top.

If it was out and out cheating then Ferrari could have protested Mercedes rather than take it to another level?

Why do that when you're behind Red Bull for the 6th year running, never mind Mercedes.? Leapfrogging Renault on the engine side is guaranteed podiums most of the time for your lead car and gets rid of Red Bull. Surely you'd just copy what Mercedes are doing to leapfrog Renault and then build on it when or where you can.

Then there's the cleverness of it. As has been found by the FIA trying in vain to stop it for 4 years and not being able to view the engine in action internally, what are Ferrari going to say? "Our new employee Cornebois says he built an illegal combustion process when he was at Mercedes but now he wants to go straight"? Be a bit awkward, no?

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote: I refer to my initial question. Why are you up in arms about the Ferrari question but not the Mercedes one? After all, their performance appeared to be significantly affected by bit so it's no small thing, either.

Because the Ferrari one would be far more serious, it's one thing going into the grey areas of the regulations and another deliberately cheating a set technical limit.

If you're illegally burning more oil than you should in oder to generate more power, then how is that a grey area?

When were Mercedes doing this illegally, there's nothing illegal about engines burning oil, the Renault and Honda engines also burn oil, since there was an oil burn limit introduced have Mercedes exceeded that limit?

Depends on the delivery method of how the oil is introduced. Is it deliberate or just taking advantage of a natural process within the engine?

There are theories around that would have me thinking it's just engineering brilliance but there's also theories that make it sound like simple out and out cheating and circumventing the fuel flow rules.

That they both (Ferrari and Mercedes) denied it's happening at all kinda answers which one they think the fans and the FIA may lean toward.

Lotus49 wrote:I'd also like a bit more info about what they are supposed to be bypassing here?

Simple usage of 4MJ per lap was surpassed a few years ago by Ferrari and Mercedes using the unlimited H>ES>H>K route. Honda's "extra harvest" they talked about used the K>H>ES>H>K route.

The only 4MJ limit is ES>K and the SoC limit in the ES being between 0-4MJ at any time.

ES>H and back and K>H and back are entirely unlimited.

So what part are Ferrari accused of breaking here?

There was some mindbending posts on this subject on f1technical that never made me feel more dumber but it's interesting as hell. Craigy in particular had a mad theory that is entirely legal and based on Honda's extra harvest..

https://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewt ... 40#p733495

That post and the next few pages are great.

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:I'd also like a bit more info about what they are supposed to be bypassing here?

Simple usage of 4MJ per lap was surpassed a few years ago by Ferrari and Mercedes using the unlimited H>ES>H>K route. Honda's "extra harvest" they talked about used the K>H>ES>H>K route.

The only 4MJ limit is ES>K and the SoC limit in the ES being between 0-4MJ at any time.

ES>H and back and K>H and back are entirely unlimited.

So what part are Ferrari accused of breaking here?

There was some mindbending posts on this subject on f1technical that never made me feel more dumber but it's interesting as hell. Craigy in particular had a mad theory that is entirely legal and based on Honda's extra harvest..

https://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewt ... 40#p733495

That post and the next few pages are great.

Well I'm not technical at all but it would be my understanding that the MGU-K has a limited output of 160hp but Ferrari are able to use 180hp from it.

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote: Because the Ferrari one would be far more serious, it's one thing going into the grey areas of the regulations and another deliberately cheating a set technical limit.

If you're illegally burning more oil than you should in oder to generate more power, then how is that a grey area?

When were Mercedes doing this illegally, there's nothing illegal about engines burning oil, the Renault and Honda engines also burn oil, since there was an oil burn limit introduced have Mercedes exceeded that limit?

Depends on the delivery method of how the oil is introduced. Is it deliberate or just taking advantage of a natural process within the engine?

There are theories around that would have me thinking it's just engineering brilliance but there's also theories that make it sound like simple out and out cheating and circumventing the fuel flow rules.

That they both (Ferrari and Mercedes) denied it's happening at all kinda answers which one they think the fans and the FIA may lean toward.

So no one knows what is happening in the process but we will go for the cheating angle?

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

Siao7 wrote:
Very true, I think it was RB last year that went to the FIA with this. So same scenario, a team going to the FIA with a suspicion and the FIA investigating. I also remember a very vocal journo from the Netherlands, Olav Mol I think, very respected with many "inside" connections, coming forward and saying that he was 1000% sure that the Mercs were burning oil on purpose.

But I don't think we had anyone shouting Mercs are cheaters.

The first suspicions were only about Mercedes in 2014. An engineer with Ferrari connections called Benzing wrote about Mercedes only being able to hit the peak power they were if they were circumnavigating the fuel flow or using illegal fuel but no-one really paid any attention.

Then Ferrari signed the Mercedes combustion chief Cedric Cornebois in the summer 2014. He started on Jan.1st and oil burn is being discussed on Ferrari forums just a few days later but Benzing shuts up about it from there on in. And then the FIA are testing for oil burn but only on Mercedes and Ferrari cars from Spain 2015.

It's always stemmed from Mercedes but no-one in the English speaking press cared until Ferrari started getting more from it last year in Canada and Ferrari were accused of using their auxiliary tank to top up what they were burning.

Because stealing £100 is fine if you're both doing it but God forbid one of you steals an extra 20 on top.

If it was out and out cheating then Ferrari could have protested Mercedes rather than take it to another level?

Why do that when you're behind Red Bull for the 6th year running, never mind Mercedes.? Leapfrogging Renault on the engine side is guaranteed podiums most of the time for your lead car and gets rid of Red Bull. Surely you'd just copy what Mercedes are doing to leapfrog Renault and then build on it when or where you can.

Then there's the cleverness of it. As has been found by the FIA trying in vain to stop it for 4 years and not being able to view the engine in action internally, what are Ferrari going to say? "Our new employee Cornebois says he built an illegal combustion process when he was at Mercedes but now he wants to go straight"? Be a bit awkward, no?

They could have still flagged it up and tried to get the oil burning reduced but decided to also cheat as been put forward on here, also the FIA are apparently allowing it so how exactly is it cheating?

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote: Because the Ferrari one would be far more serious, it's one thing going into the grey areas of the regulations and another deliberately cheating a set technical limit.

If you're illegally burning more oil than you should in oder to generate more power, then how is that a grey area?

When were Mercedes doing this illegally, there's nothing illegal about engines burning oil, the Renault and Honda engines also burn oil, since there was an oil burn limit introduced have Mercedes exceeded that limit?

There were rumours they were doing it illegally, just as there are rumours that Ferrari are breaching electric power limits. Point being made is both are rumours, yet it's only Ferrari's that is getting you up in arms. You need to wait until anything's been proven before getting so worked up about it

Like I've posted Ferrari are also doing it so why single out Mercedes?

Were are the rumours that Mercedes have been doing it illegally?

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote: I refer to my initial question. Why are you up in arms about the Ferrari question but not the Mercedes one? After all, their performance appeared to be significantly affected by bit so it's no small thing, either.

Because the Ferrari one would be far more serious, it's one thing going into the grey areas of the regulations and another deliberately cheating a set technical limit.

If you're illegally burning more oil than you should in oder to generate more power, then how is that a grey area?

When was it ever illegal, the FIA have set a limit for oil usage, also this supposed illegal burning is also being done by Ferrari so why single out Mercedes?

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:I'd also like a bit more info about what they are supposed to be bypassing here?

Simple usage of 4MJ per lap was surpassed a few years ago by Ferrari and Mercedes using the unlimited H>ES>H>K route. Honda's "extra harvest" they talked about used the K>H>ES>H>K route.

The only 4MJ limit is ES>K and the SoC limit in the ES being between 0-4MJ at any time.

ES>H and back and K>H and back are entirely unlimited.

So what part are Ferrari accused of breaking here?

There was some mindbending posts on this subject on f1technical that never made me feel more dumber but it's interesting as hell. Craigy in particular had a mad theory that is entirely legal and based on Honda's extra harvest..

https://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewt ... 40#p733495

That post and the next few pages are great.

Well I'm not technical at all but it would be my understanding that the MGU-K has a limited output of 160hp but Ferrari are able to use 180hp from it.

That's never been strictly the rule, just the intention of the rule - two very different things in F1. As Lotus49 elaborates, the rule makers only put a cap on the direct output of the MGU-K, not on any other other components, and the teams quickly figured out how to transfer energy between the systems and get past that limit. That's why we talk about the engines being near 1000 hp now, when the ICE is still only somewhere in the 600s or 700s by all accounts. Clearly, they're all generating well over 160 hp by completely legal means through the electric systems.

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote: If you're illegally burning more oil than you should in oder to generate more power, then how is that a grey area?

When were Mercedes doing this illegally, there's nothing illegal about engines burning oil, the Renault and Honda engines also burn oil, since there was an oil burn limit introduced have Mercedes exceeded that limit?

Depends on the delivery method of how the oil is introduced. Is it deliberate or just taking advantage of a natural process within the engine?

There are theories around that would have me thinking it's just engineering brilliance but there's also theories that make it sound like simple out and out cheating and circumventing the fuel flow rules.

That they both (Ferrari and Mercedes) denied it's happening at all kinda answers which one they think the fans and the FIA may lean toward.

So no one knows what is happening in the process but we will go for the cheating angle?

isn't that precisely what you are doing with Ferrari at the moment? I think that's the point being made

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote: The first suspicions were only about Mercedes in 2014. An engineer with Ferrari connections called Benzing wrote about Mercedes only being able to hit the peak power they were if they were circumnavigating the fuel flow or using illegal fuel but no-one really paid any attention.

Then Ferrari signed the Mercedes combustion chief Cedric Cornebois in the summer 2014. He started on Jan.1st and oil burn is being discussed on Ferrari forums just a few days later but Benzing shuts up about it from there on in. And then the FIA are testing for oil burn but only on Mercedes and Ferrari cars from Spain 2015.

It's always stemmed from Mercedes but no-one in the English speaking press cared until Ferrari started getting more from it last year in Canada and Ferrari were accused of using their auxiliary tank to top up what they were burning.

Because stealing £100 is fine if you're both doing it but God forbid one of you steals an extra 20 on top.

If it was out and out cheating then Ferrari could have protested Mercedes rather than take it to another level?

Why do that when you're behind Red Bull for the 6th year running, never mind Mercedes.? Leapfrogging Renault on the engine side is guaranteed podiums most of the time for your lead car and gets rid of Red Bull. Surely you'd just copy what Mercedes are doing to leapfrog Renault and then build on it when or where you can.

Then there's the cleverness of it. As has been found by the FIA trying in vain to stop it for 4 years and not being able to view the engine in action internally, what are Ferrari going to say? "Our new employee Cornebois says he built an illegal combustion process when he was at Mercedes but now he wants to go straight"? Be a bit awkward, no?

They could have still flagged it up and tried to get the oil burning reduced but decided to also cheat as been put forward on here, also the FIA are apparently allowing it so how exactly is it cheating?

They haven't been convicted of cheating as far as I know. What have I missed?

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote: The first suspicions were only about Mercedes in 2014. An engineer with Ferrari connections called Benzing wrote about Mercedes only being able to hit the peak power they were if they were circumnavigating the fuel flow or using illegal fuel but no-one really paid any attention.

Then Ferrari signed the Mercedes combustion chief Cedric Cornebois in the summer 2014. He started on Jan.1st and oil burn is being discussed on Ferrari forums just a few days later but Benzing shuts up about it from there on in. And then the FIA are testing for oil burn but only on Mercedes and Ferrari cars from Spain 2015.

It's always stemmed from Mercedes but no-one in the English speaking press cared until Ferrari started getting more from it last year in Canada and Ferrari were accused of using their auxiliary tank to top up what they were burning.

Because stealing £100 is fine if you're both doing it but God forbid one of you steals an extra 20 on top.

If it was out and out cheating then Ferrari could have protested Mercedes rather than take it to another level?

Why do that when you're behind Red Bull for the 6th year running, never mind Mercedes.? Leapfrogging Renault on the engine side is guaranteed podiums most of the time for your lead car and gets rid of Red Bull. Surely you'd just copy what Mercedes are doing to leapfrog Renault and then build on it when or where you can.

Then there's the cleverness of it. As has been found by the FIA trying in vain to stop it for 4 years and not being able to view the engine in action internally, what are Ferrari going to say? "Our new employee Cornebois says he built an illegal combustion process when he was at Mercedes but now he wants to go straight"? Be a bit awkward, no?

They could have still flagged it up and tried to get the oil burning reduced but decided to also cheat as been put forward on here, also the FIA are apparently allowing it so how exactly is it cheating?

They haven't been convicted of cheating as far as I know. What have I missed?

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote: If you're illegally burning more oil than you should in oder to generate more power, then how is that a grey area?

When were Mercedes doing this illegally, there's nothing illegal about engines burning oil, the Renault and Honda engines also burn oil, since there was an oil burn limit introduced have Mercedes exceeded that limit?

There were rumours they were doing it illegally, just as there are rumours that Ferrari are breaching electric power limits. Point being made is both are rumours, yet it's only Ferrari's that is getting you up in arms. You need to wait until anything's been proven before getting so worked up about it

Like I've posted Ferrari are also doing it so why single out Mercedes?

Were are the rumours that Mercedes have been doing it illegally?

there were lots of rumours that Mercedes were burning extra oil but no-one could figure out exactly how. Thats. The. Point

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote: Because the Ferrari one would be far more serious, it's one thing going into the grey areas of the regulations and another deliberately cheating a set technical limit.

If you're illegally burning more oil than you should in oder to generate more power, then how is that a grey area?

When was it ever illegal, the FIA have set a limit for oil usage, also this supposed illegal burning is also being done by Ferrari so why single out Mercedes?

Because Mercedes have allegedly been doing it for far longer - see Lotus49's posts above - yet you seem fine with that. It seems it's only bad when Ferrari are involved?

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote: If it was out and out cheating then Ferrari could have protested Mercedes rather than take it to another level?

Why do that when you're behind Red Bull for the 6th year running, never mind Mercedes.? Leapfrogging Renault on the engine side is guaranteed podiums most of the time for your lead car and gets rid of Red Bull. Surely you'd just copy what Mercedes are doing to leapfrog Renault and then build on it when or where you can.

Then there's the cleverness of it. As has been found by the FIA trying in vain to stop it for 4 years and not being able to view the engine in action internally, what are Ferrari going to say? "Our new employee Cornebois says he built an illegal combustion process when he was at Mercedes but now he wants to go straight"? Be a bit awkward, no?

They could have still flagged it up and tried to get the oil burning reduced but decided to also cheat as been put forward on here, also the FIA are apparently allowing it so how exactly is it cheating?

They haven't been convicted of cheating as far as I know. What have I missed?

Maybe you missed a post you made about Mercedes having cheated their way to their titles because of the oil burning?

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote: When was it ever illegal, the FIA have set a limit for oil usage, also this supposed illegal burning is also being done by Ferrari so why single out Mercedes?

Because Mercedes have allegedly been doing it for far longer - see Lotus49's posts above - yet you seem fine with that. It seems it's only bad when Ferrari are involved?

Have Mercedes been cheating? it's only recently that limitations on oil burning have been introduced whereas the MGU-K has always had a physical limit of 160hp.

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote: When were Mercedes doing this illegally, there's nothing illegal about engines burning oil, the Renault and Honda engines also burn oil, since there was an oil burn limit introduced have Mercedes exceeded that limit?

There were rumours they were doing it illegally, just as there are rumours that Ferrari are breaching electric power limits. Point being made is both are rumours, yet it's only Ferrari's that is getting you up in arms. You need to wait until anything's been proven before getting so worked up about it

Like I've posted Ferrari are also doing it so why single out Mercedes?

Were are the rumours that Mercedes have been doing it illegally?

there were lots of rumours that Mercedes were burning extra oil but no-one could figure out exactly how. Thats. The. Point

Illegally? plus any rumours came after Ferrari were also doing it.

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote: When were Mercedes doing this illegally, there's nothing illegal about engines burning oil, the Renault and Honda engines also burn oil, since there was an oil burn limit introduced have Mercedes exceeded that limit?

Depends on the delivery method of how the oil is introduced. Is it deliberate or just taking advantage of a natural process within the engine?

There are theories around that would have me thinking it's just engineering brilliance but there's also theories that make it sound like simple out and out cheating and circumventing the fuel flow rules.

That they both (Ferrari and Mercedes) denied it's happening at all kinda answers which one they think the fans and the FIA may lean toward.

So no one knows what is happening in the process but we will go for the cheating angle?

isn't that precisely what you are doing with Ferrari at the moment? I think that's the point being made

No in this case we are talking about a physical limit that's being exceeded and if that's the case then is it not a cheat, likewise if you exceed the fuel flow limit or the race fuel limit that would be similar, these are physical limitations that are in place not some working in the grey areas of the rules.

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote: Yeah some things aren't taking advantage of grey areas but are just out and out cheating.

Who decides which is which?

From where I'm sitting it seems to be if Mercedes are doing it then it's just clever engineering around grey areas (oil burn,hpc suspension and whatever it is MP is talking about) and if Ferrari are doing it then it's blatant cheating (oil burn,exhaust blowing and extra ers)

All passed legality checks and deemed legal during racing weekends, none dq'd and yet are treated entirely differently by some, the oil burn being the perfect example despite being the exact same thing.

We are not talking about a grey area here though we are talking about a FIA sensor that monitors that the electrical energy being used doesn't exceed 160hp being bypassed by Ferrari, if true?

Yes and there's a fuel flow sensor being bypassed by adding oil to the combustion process if you believe certain theories on how the oil burn could be being done.

Yet the FIA have decided not to stop it, go figure?

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

Siao7 wrote: Very true, I think it was RB last year that went to the FIA with this. So same scenario, a team going to the FIA with a suspicion and the FIA investigating. I also remember a very vocal journo from the Netherlands, Olav Mol I think, very respected with many "inside" connections, coming forward and saying that he was 1000% sure that the Mercs were burning oil on purpose.

But I don't think we had anyone shouting Mercs are cheaters.

The first suspicions were only about Mercedes in 2014. An engineer with Ferrari connections called Benzing wrote about Mercedes only being able to hit the peak power they were if they were circumnavigating the fuel flow or using illegal fuel but no-one really paid any attention.

Then Ferrari signed the Mercedes combustion chief Cedric Cornebois in the summer 2014. He started on Jan.1st and oil burn is being discussed on Ferrari forums just a few days later but Benzing shuts up about it from there on in. And then the FIA are testing for oil burn but only on Mercedes and Ferrari cars from Spain 2015.

It's always stemmed from Mercedes but no-one in the English speaking press cared until Ferrari started getting more from it last year in Canada and Ferrari were accused of using their auxiliary tank to top up what they were burning.

Because stealing £100 is fine if you're both doing it but God forbid one of you steals an extra 20 on top.

If it was out and out cheating then Ferrari could have protested Mercedes rather than take it to another level?

Why do that when you're behind Red Bull for the 6th year running, never mind Mercedes.? Leapfrogging Renault on the engine side is guaranteed podiums most of the time for your lead car and gets rid of Red Bull. Surely you'd just copy what Mercedes are doing to leapfrog Renault and then build on it when or where you can.

Then there's the cleverness of it. As has been found by the FIA trying in vain to stop it for 4 years and not being able to view the engine in action internally, what are Ferrari going to say? "Our new employee Cornebois says he built an illegal combustion process when he was at Mercedes but now he wants to go straight"? Be a bit awkward, no?

They could have still flagged it up and tried to get the oil burning reduced but decided to also cheat as been put forward on here, also the FIA are apparently allowing it so how exactly is it cheating?

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote: Because the Ferrari one would be far more serious, it's one thing going into the grey areas of the regulations and another deliberately cheating a set technical limit.

If you're illegally burning more oil than you should in oder to generate more power, then how is that a grey area?

When were Mercedes doing this illegally, there's nothing illegal about engines burning oil, the Renault and Honda engines also burn oil, since there was an oil burn limit introduced have Mercedes exceeded that limit?

Depends on the delivery method of how the oil is introduced. Is it deliberate or just taking advantage of a natural process within the engine?

There are theories around that would have me thinking it's just engineering brilliance but there's also theories that make it sound like simple out and out cheating and circumventing the fuel flow rules.

That they both (Ferrari and Mercedes) denied it's happening at all kinda answers which one they think the fans and the FIA may lean toward.

So no one knows what is happening in the process but we will go for the cheating angle?

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:I'd also like a bit more info about what they are supposed to be bypassing here?

Simple usage of 4MJ per lap was surpassed a few years ago by Ferrari and Mercedes using the unlimited H>ES>H>K route. Honda's "extra harvest" they talked about used the K>H>ES>H>K route.

The only 4MJ limit is ES>K and the SoC limit in the ES being between 0-4MJ at any time.

ES>H and back and K>H and back are entirely unlimited.

So what part are Ferrari accused of breaking here?

There was some mindbending posts on this subject on f1technical that never made me feel more dumber but it's interesting as hell. Craigy in particular had a mad theory that is entirely legal and based on Honda's extra harvest..

https://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewt ... 40#p733495

That post and the next few pages are great.

Well I'm not technical at all but it would be my understanding that the MGU-K has a limited output of 160hp but Ferrari are able to use 180hp from it.

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote: When were Mercedes doing this illegally, there's nothing illegal about engines burning oil, the Renault and Honda engines also burn oil, since there was an oil burn limit introduced have Mercedes exceeded that limit?

There were rumours they were doing it illegally, just as there are rumours that Ferrari are breaching electric power limits. Point being made is both are rumours, yet it's only Ferrari's that is getting you up in arms. You need to wait until anything's been proven before getting so worked up about it

Like I've posted Ferrari are also doing it so why single out Mercedes?

Were are the rumours that Mercedes have been doing it illegally?

there were lots of rumours that Mercedes were burning extra oil but no-one could figure out exactly how. Thats. The. Point

Illegally? plus any rumours came after Ferrari were also doing it.

henry wrote:The 33.333 second number is not correct. It was used in the early days of the formula to help people “understand” the energy flow but it assumes that the MGU-K may ONLY be driven from the ES. It’s still being used by people like Martin Brundle on SKY UK. He should know better.

In reality the MGU-K may be driven by BOTH the ES and the MGU-H at the same time, a “bypass” that you referred to. The MGU-H makes around 60 kW* at full throttle, which is when the MGU-K gets used. This means the power drain from the ES is only 60 kW and the MGU-K can be driven for 66.666 seconds.

Using the K for this full time is not likely to be lap-time efficient. So the another “bypass” comes into play. Sometimes the MGU-H is driven by the ES (which also drives the MGU-K at the same time) , giving a supercharge effect and more power to the road. This mode is used in conjunction with open wastegate and is thought to increase power by 30 hp, which I believe is the added power in the allegations.

I think this supercharge mode is possibly what is being referred to when the allegation about Ferrari being able to deploy an extra 0.2 MJ to the MGU-K. If they could they would be able to use that extra 30 hp for an extra 1.66 seconds, which may make a difference in qualifying.

Whether or not Ferrari is doing such a thing and if so whether or not they do so illegally is up for grabs. @Craigy’s mention of inertia may be one such legal method with a potentially heavy but short duty cycle on the MGU-H.

* Andy Cowell mentioned this number, indirectly, in a recent press conference.

Lotus49 wrote:I'm just wondering after reading that again if this "supercharge" mode could be what the toggle is for in the corners. I'm sure I read people could hear the wastegates open on the Ferrari and it's mentioned above in conjunction with the ES driving the 'H' and 'K' that the wastegates open to give a healthy bump in HP.

Not sure why you'd want it in the corners rather than the straights though unless it gives a large blowing effect at the same time maybe?

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote: Yeah some things aren't taking advantage of grey areas but are just out and out cheating.

Who decides which is which?

From where I'm sitting it seems to be if Mercedes are doing it then it's just clever engineering around grey areas (oil burn,hpc suspension and whatever it is MP is talking about) and if Ferrari are doing it then it's blatant cheating (oil burn,exhaust blowing and extra ers)

All passed legality checks and deemed legal during racing weekends, none dq'd and yet are treated entirely differently by some, the oil burn being the perfect example despite being the exact same thing.

Very true, I think it was RB last year that went to the FIA with this. So same scenario, a team going to the FIA with a suspicion and the FIA investigating. I also remember a very vocal journo from the Netherlands, Olav Mol I think, very respected with many "inside" connections, coming forward and saying that he was 1000% sure that the Mercs were burning oil on purpose.

But I don't think we had anyone shouting Mercs are cheaters.

The first suspicions were only about Mercedes in 2014. An engineer with Ferrari connections called Benzing wrote about Mercedes only being able to hit the peak power they were if they were circumnavigating the fuel flow or using illegal fuel but no-one really paid any attention.

Then Ferrari signed the Mercedes combustion chief Cedric Cornebois in the summer 2014. He started on Jan.1st and oil burn is being discussed on Ferrari forums just a few days later but Benzing shuts up about it from there on in. And then the FIA are testing for oil burn but only on Mercedes and Ferrari cars from Spain 2015.

It's always stemmed from Mercedes but no-one in the English speaking press cared until Ferrari started getting more from it last year in Canada and Ferrari were accused of using their auxiliary tank to top up what they were burning.

Because stealing £100 is fine if you're both doing it but God forbid one of you steals an extra 20 on top.

If it was out and out cheating then Ferrari could have protested Mercedes rather than take it to another level?

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote: This is what's been said that they were bypassing the cheat sensor so they had 20hp extra for qualifying, maybe the only actual confirmation will be Ferrari's about turn on the new aero regs?

Can you actually see the difference? Between "being said" to "they were using it"? "What's being said" is not proof.

There is an investigation going on, based only on other teams going to the FIA and asking them about it, so if the car has passed the FIA's scrutiny so far, having some teams moan does not constitute evidence. Let's just wait and see before we damn them.

Plus, Zoue is correct in being sceptical on how did the other teams get such an insight, but that's another topic I guess.

Don't they use GPS and sound equipment to evaluate the performance of the cars, they are able to see how fast the cars are accelerating and get an overall idea about the output of the PU's?

Who do you mean? That they use GPS?

You are trying to shift the conversation, that's fine, understandable. You could just accept that you are jumping the gun here and wait until we find out if Ferrari is doing anything wrong and if any action is being taken against them. Until then, I'd suggest that you stop judging them on a speculation.

They can see how fast cars accelerate, how do the likes of Red Bull ascertain how much hp they are down?

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:
Can you actually see the difference? Between "being said" to "they were using it"? "What's being said" is not proof.

There is an investigation going on, based only on other teams going to the FIA and asking them about it, so if the car has passed the FIA's scrutiny so far, having some teams moan does not constitute evidence. Let's just wait and see before we damn them.

Plus, Zoue is correct in being sceptical on how did the other teams get such an insight, but that's another topic I guess.

Don't they use GPS and sound equipment to evaluate the performance of the cars, they are able to see how fast the cars are accelerating and get an overall idea about the output of the PU's?

Who do you mean? That they use GPS?

You are trying to shift the conversation, that's fine, understandable. You could just accept that you are jumping the gun here and wait until we find out if Ferrari is doing anything wrong and if any action is being taken against them. Until then, I'd suggest that you stop judging them on a speculation.

They can see how fast cars accelerate, how do the likes of Red Bull ascertain how much hp they are down?

isn't acceleration more a function of torque than hp (not an engineer, genuine question)?

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Lotus49 wrote: Who decides which is which?

From where I'm sitting it seems to be if Mercedes are doing it then it's just clever engineering around grey areas (oil burn,hpc suspension and whatever it is MP is talking about) and if Ferrari are doing it then it's blatant cheating (oil burn,exhaust blowing and extra ers)

All passed legality checks and deemed legal during racing weekends, none dq'd and yet are treated entirely differently by some, the oil burn being the perfect example despite being the exact same thing.

Very true, I think it was RB last year that went to the FIA with this. So same scenario, a team going to the FIA with a suspicion and the FIA investigating. I also remember a very vocal journo from the Netherlands, Olav Mol I think, very respected with many "inside" connections, coming forward and saying that he was 1000% sure that the Mercs were burning oil on purpose.

But I don't think we had anyone shouting Mercs are cheaters.

The first suspicions were only about Mercedes in 2014. An engineer with Ferrari connections called Benzing wrote about Mercedes only being able to hit the peak power they were if they were circumnavigating the fuel flow or using illegal fuel but no-one really paid any attention.

Then Ferrari signed the Mercedes combustion chief Cedric Cornebois in the summer 2014. He started on Jan.1st and oil burn is being discussed on Ferrari forums just a few days later but Benzing shuts up about it from there on in. And then the FIA are testing for oil burn but only on Mercedes and Ferrari cars from Spain 2015.

It's always stemmed from Mercedes but no-one in the English speaking press cared until Ferrari started getting more from it last year in Canada and Ferrari were accused of using their auxiliary tank to top up what they were burning.

Because stealing £100 is fine if you're both doing it but God forbid one of you steals an extra 20 on top.

If it was out and out cheating then Ferrari could have protested Mercedes rather than take it to another level?

Wow, so now we have graduated to Mercedes cheating doesn't count if Ferrari does something else? (Again, without any proof that Ferrari has done something)

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote: Why do that when you're behind Red Bull for the 6th year running, never mind Mercedes.? Leapfrogging Renault on the engine side is guaranteed podiums most of the time for your lead car and gets rid of Red Bull. Surely you'd just copy what Mercedes are doing to leapfrog Renault and then build on it when or where you can.

Then there's the cleverness of it. As has been found by the FIA trying in vain to stop it for 4 years and not being able to view the engine in action internally, what are Ferrari going to say? "Our new employee Cornebois says he built an illegal combustion process when he was at Mercedes but now he wants to go straight"? Be a bit awkward, no?

They could have still flagged it up and tried to get the oil burning reduced but decided to also cheat as been put forward on here, also the FIA are apparently allowing it so how exactly is it cheating?

They haven't been convicted of cheating as far as I know. What have I missed?

Maybe you missed a post you made about Mercedes having cheated their way to their titles because of the oil burning?

Maybe you missed the post where I said I would be upset IF it turned out to be the case. I stressed the IF more than once in that same conversation with you. It seems you suffer from selective interpretation where Mercedes are involved?

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote: When was it ever illegal, the FIA have set a limit for oil usage, also this supposed illegal burning is also being done by Ferrari so why single out Mercedes?

Because Mercedes have allegedly been doing it for far longer - see Lotus49's posts above - yet you seem fine with that. It seems it's only bad when Ferrari are involved?

Have Mercedes been cheating? it's only recently that limitations on oil burning have been introduced whereas the MGU-K has always had a physical limit of 160hp.

I don't know if they were. How are you missing this point? You're the only one making accusations of cheating as though they were based on fact. I'm just pointing out that where allegations are involved it only appears to upset you when they don't concern Mercedes

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote: There were rumours they were doing it illegally, just as there are rumours that Ferrari are breaching electric power limits. Point being made is both are rumours, yet it's only Ferrari's that is getting you up in arms. You need to wait until anything's been proven before getting so worked up about it

Like I've posted Ferrari are also doing it so why single out Mercedes?

Were are the rumours that Mercedes have been doing it illegally?

there were lots of rumours that Mercedes were burning extra oil but no-one could figure out exactly how. Thats. The. Point

Illegally? plus any rumours came after Ferrari were also doing it.

Yes, illegally. But, as demonstrated above when you cited the unproven allegations about the Ferrari extra oil tank as fact, it only appears to be a problem when it doesn't involve Mercedes?

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote: Depends on the delivery method of how the oil is introduced. Is it deliberate or just taking advantage of a natural process within the engine?

There are theories around that would have me thinking it's just engineering brilliance but there's also theories that make it sound like simple out and out cheating and circumventing the fuel flow rules.

That they both (Ferrari and Mercedes) denied it's happening at all kinda answers which one they think the fans and the FIA may lean toward.

So no one knows what is happening in the process but we will go for the cheating angle?

isn't that precisely what you are doing with Ferrari at the moment? I think that's the point being made

No in this case we are talking about a physical limit that's being exceeded and if that's the case then is it not a cheat, likewise if you exceed the fuel flow limit or the race fuel limit that would be similar, these are physical limitations that are in place not some working in the grey areas of the rules.

Well no, it's not really, because as Lotus49 points out above these limits are already being circumvented by more than one team. These specific allegations - and I can't stress that word enough - assume a very specific method but there has been no elaboration about how people have drawn that conclusion. But you are seizing on it because I suspect you want Ferrari to be caught cheating so that a competitor to Hamilton can be removed from the table, clearing his way to a 5th title.

If they are cheating, then fair enough. But at the moment you are making accusations as if they were fact, and that's plain wrong

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote: Who decides which is which?

From where I'm sitting it seems to be if Mercedes are doing it then it's just clever engineering around grey areas (oil burn,hpc suspension and whatever it is MP is talking about) and if Ferrari are doing it then it's blatant cheating (oil burn,exhaust blowing and extra ers)

All passed legality checks and deemed legal during racing weekends, none dq'd and yet are treated entirely differently by some, the oil burn being the perfect example despite being the exact same thing.

We are not talking about a grey area here though we are talking about a FIA sensor that monitors that the electrical energy being used doesn't exceed 160hp being bypassed by Ferrari, if true?

Yes and there's a fuel flow sensor being bypassed by adding oil to the combustion process if you believe certain theories on how the oil burn could be being done.

Yet the FIA have decided not to stop it, go figure?

Yes because they can't as it's impossible to monitor on track. You have noticed them trying for 3 years to narrow it down right? They've banned the use of multiple different blends, they banned active control valves, they improved monitoring where they could and they've implemented oil usage limits from unlimited to now 0.6ltr per 100km.

Oil traces can be found naturally so they can't just deem them cheating because they find traces of it in the combustion chamber and they can't watch the engine as it runs so they still don't know the delivery method,whether it's through leaking seals or drawing in oil through the turbo(cheating the fuel flow and breaking the only fuel to be used in combustion rule ) or drawing in burnt off oil vapour mixed with air (the one I'd personally deem as engineering brilliance) or any other method that's been put forward over the past 3 years.

That both Mercedes and Ferrari still say it's not happening despite going through 3x as much oil as the other 2 EM's would suggest to me they don't feel as if it would be viewed as engineering brilliance but that's just my view.

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote: There were rumours they were doing it illegally, just as there are rumours that Ferrari are breaching electric power limits. Point being made is both are rumours, yet it's only Ferrari's that is getting you up in arms. You need to wait until anything's been proven before getting so worked up about it

Like I've posted Ferrari are also doing it so why single out Mercedes?

Were are the rumours that Mercedes have been doing it illegally?

there were lots of rumours that Mercedes were burning extra oil but no-one could figure out exactly how. Thats. The. Point

Illegally? plus any rumours came after Ferrari were also doing it.

Not even close to being true, Mercedes were first with the sheer amount of oil they went through dwarfing everyone else's in 2014 which is what raised FIA suspicion in the first place, they were using over 5ltrs of oil for a race back then(They're using under 2ltrs right now).

Then we had the leaks coming from some Ferrari and motorsport forums* that Cornebois and others had spilled the beans about additives in the oil (Normally forum rumour is what it is but considering this was Jan 2015 and how accurate the rumour was to what's been alleged since I think it has plenty of merit), then we had the Mercedes blue smoke finger pointing fiasco and then we had the Ferrari extra oil tank rumour last year after Canada.

The first time the FIA got involved to test for oil shenanigans was Spain 2015 when they took samples from both Seb's and Lewis's car.

Mercedes were first rumoured, then both Ferrari and Mercedes, then both were tested and now both still use the same amount which is still 3x the amount the other 2 EM's use. If we choose to ignore rumours and just go by when the FIA wanted to test then it's a joint affair in Spain 2015.

In no way was it Ferrari first.


* http://w11.zetaboards.com/Motorsports_M ... 0872655/1/

Lotus49 wrote:Bringing it back to the ERS thing, I thought this post on F1technical by henry was interesting as well. I'm not entirely sure I understand it fully, which means I don't lol, but could this be what they are doing?

henry wrote:The 33.333 second number is not correct. It was used in the early days of the formula to help people “understand” the energy flow but it assumes that the MGU-K may ONLY be driven from the ES. It’s still being used by people like Martin Brundle on SKY UK. He should know better.

In reality the MGU-K may be driven by BOTH the ES and the MGU-H at the same time, a “bypass” that you referred to. The MGU-H makes around 60 kW* at full throttle, which is when the MGU-K gets used. This means the power drain from the ES is only 60 kW and the MGU-K can be driven for 66.666 seconds.

Using the K for this full time is not likely to be lap-time efficient. So the another “bypass” comes into play. Sometimes the MGU-H is driven by the ES (which also drives the MGU-K at the same time) , giving a supercharge effect and more power to the road. This mode is used in conjunction with open wastegate and is thought to increase power by 30 hp, which I believe is the added power in the allegations.

I think this supercharge mode is possibly what is being referred to when the allegation about Ferrari being able to deploy an extra 0.2 MJ to the MGU-K. If they could they would be able to use that extra 30 hp for an extra 1.66 seconds, which may make a difference in qualifying.

Whether or not Ferrari is doing such a thing and if so whether or not they do so illegally is up for grabs. @Craigy’s mention of inertia may be one such legal method with a potentially heavy but short duty cycle on the MGU-H.

* Andy Cowell mentioned this number, indirectly, in a recent press conference.

https://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewt ... start=1230

The mention of inertia of the mgu-h being a legal way to do it has lost me to be honest. Can anyone help lay it out for us simple folk..

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote: They could have still flagged it up and tried to get the oil burning reduced but decided to also cheat as been put forward on here, also the FIA are apparently allowing it so how exactly is it cheating?

They haven't been convicted of cheating as far as I know. What have I missed?

Maybe you missed a post you made about Mercedes having cheated their way to their titles because of the oil burning?

Maybe you missed the post where I said I would be upset IF it turned out to be the case. I stressed the IF more than once in that same conversation with you. It seems you suffer from selective interpretation where Mercedes are involved?

Surely it's a known fact that Mercedes and Ferrari are oil burning?

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote: When was it ever illegal, the FIA have set a limit for oil usage, also this supposed illegal burning is also being done by Ferrari so why single out Mercedes?

Because Mercedes have allegedly been doing it for far longer - see Lotus49's posts above - yet you seem fine with that. It seems it's only bad when Ferrari are involved?

Have Mercedes been cheating? it's only recently that limitations on oil burning have been introduced whereas the MGU-K has always had a physical limit of 160hp.

I don't know if they were. How are you missing this point? You're the only one making accusations of cheating as though they were based on fact. I'm just pointing out that where allegations are involved it only appears to upset you when they don't concern Mercedes

I think you totally miss the point I'm making, when was oil burning ever illegal, whereas the MGU-K has a legal limit of 160hp.