planetf1.com

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote: Because Mercedes have allegedly been doing it for far longer - see Lotus49's posts above - yet you seem fine with that. It seems it's only bad when Ferrari are involved?

Have Mercedes been cheating? it's only recently that limitations on oil burning have been introduced whereas the MGU-K has always had a physical limit of 160hp.

I don't know if they were. How are you missing this point? You're the only one making accusations of cheating as though they were based on fact. I'm just pointing out that where allegations are involved it only appears to upset you when they don't concern Mercedes

I think you totally miss the point I'm making, when was oil burning ever illegal, whereas the MGU-K has a legal limit of 160hp.

Deliberately burning oil for performance is completely illegal.

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote: Like I've posted Ferrari are also doing it so why single out Mercedes?

Were are the rumours that Mercedes have been doing it illegally?

there were lots of rumours that Mercedes were burning extra oil but no-one could figure out exactly how. Thats. The. Point

Illegally? plus any rumours came after Ferrari were also doing it.

Yes, illegally. But, as demonstrated above when you cited the unproven allegations about the Ferrari extra oil tank as fact, it only appears to be a problem when it doesn't involve Mercedes?

Were in the rules was it illegal, even now you're allowed an oil usage limit, regarding extra oil tanks I've not long ago watched a podcast were it mentions that oil tanks had to be removed.

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote: We are not talking about a grey area here though we are talking about a FIA sensor that monitors that the electrical energy being used doesn't exceed 160hp being bypassed by Ferrari, if true?

Yes and there's a fuel flow sensor being bypassed by adding oil to the combustion process if you believe certain theories on how the oil burn could be being done.

Yet the FIA have decided not to stop it, go figure?

Yes because they can't as it's impossible to monitor on track. You have noticed them trying for 3 years to narrow it down right? They've banned the use of multiple different blends, they banned active control valves, they improved monitoring where they could and they've implemented oil usage limits from unlimited to now 0.6ltr per 100km.

Oil traces can be found naturally so they can't just deem them cheating because they find traces of it in the combustion chamber and they can't watch the engine as it runs so they still don't know the delivery method,whether it's through leaking seals or drawing in oil through the turbo(cheating the fuel flow and breaking the only fuel to be used in combustion rule ) or drawing in burnt off oil vapour mixed with air (the one I'd personally deem as engineering brilliance) or any other method that's been put forward over the past 3 years.

That both Mercedes and Ferrari still say it's not happening despite going through 3x as much oil as the other 2 EM's would suggest to me they don't feel as if it would be viewed as engineering brilliance but that's just my view.

In simplistic terms both Renault and Honda only use 0.1L/100Km so why can't the FIA say this is the figure we want the engines to operate at?

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote: Like I've posted Ferrari are also doing it so why single out Mercedes?

Were are the rumours that Mercedes have been doing it illegally?

there were lots of rumours that Mercedes were burning extra oil but no-one could figure out exactly how. Thats. The. Point

Illegally? plus any rumours came after Ferrari were also doing it.

Not even close to being true, Mercedes were first with the sheer amount of oil they went through dwarfing everyone else's in 2014 which is what raised FIA suspicion in the first place, they were using over 5ltrs of oil for a race back then(They're using under 2ltrs right now).

Then we had the leaks coming from some Ferrari and motorsport forums* that Cornebois and others had spilled the beans about additives in the oil (Normally forum rumour is what it is but considering this was Jan 2015 and how accurate the rumour was to what's been alleged since I think it has plenty of merit), then we had the Mercedes blue smoke finger pointing fiasco and then we had the Ferrari extra oil tank rumour last year after Canada.

The first time the FIA got involved to test for oil shenanigans was Spain 2015 when they took samples from both Seb's and Lewis's car.

Mercedes were first rumoured, then both Ferrari and Mercedes, then both were tested and now both still use the same amount which is still 3x the amount the other 2 EM's use. If we choose to ignore rumours and just go by when the FIA wanted to test then it's a joint affair in Spain 2015.

In no way was it Ferrari first.


* http://w11.zetaboards.com/Motorsports_M ... 0872655/1/

I never heard rumours of oil burning in 2014.

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote: Have Mercedes been cheating? it's only recently that limitations on oil burning have been introduced whereas the MGU-K has always had a physical limit of 160hp.

I don't know if they were. How are you missing this point? You're the only one making accusations of cheating as though they were based on fact. I'm just pointing out that where allegations are involved it only appears to upset you when they don't concern Mercedes

I think you totally miss the point I'm making, when was oil burning ever illegal, whereas the MGU-K has a legal limit of 160hp.

Deliberately burning oil for performance is completely illegal.

Surely the FIA have to know what's happening even if they can't prove it and by having a limit of 0.6L/100Km that's not exactly stopping it.

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote: They could have still flagged it up and tried to get the oil burning reduced but decided to also cheat as been put forward on here, also the FIA are apparently allowing it so how exactly is it cheating?

They haven't been convicted of cheating as far as I know. What have I missed?

Maybe you missed a post you made about Mercedes having cheated their way to their titles because of the oil burning?

Maybe you missed the post where I said I would be upset IF it turned out to be the case. I stressed the IF more than once in that same conversation with you. It seems you suffer from selective interpretation where Mercedes are involved?

Surely it's a known fact that Mercedes and Ferrari are oil burning?

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote: Like I've posted Ferrari are also doing it so why single out Mercedes?

Were are the rumours that Mercedes have been doing it illegally?

there were lots of rumours that Mercedes were burning extra oil but no-one could figure out exactly how. Thats. The. Point

Illegally? plus any rumours came after Ferrari were also doing it.

Yes, illegally. But, as demonstrated above when you cited the unproven allegations about the Ferrari extra oil tank as fact, it only appears to be a problem when it doesn't involve Mercedes?

Were in the rules was it illegal, even now you're allowed an oil usage limit, regarding extra oil tanks I've not long ago watched a podcast were it mentions that oil tanks had to be removed.

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote: So no one knows what is happening in the process but we will go for the cheating angle?

isn't that precisely what you are doing with Ferrari at the moment? I think that's the point being made

No in this case we are talking about a physical limit that's being exceeded and if that's the case then is it not a cheat, likewise if you exceed the fuel flow limit or the race fuel limit that would be similar, these are physical limitations that are in place not some working in the grey areas of the rules.

Well no, it's not really, because as Lotus49 points out above these limits are already being circumvented by more than one team. These specific allegations - and I can't stress that word enough - assume a very specific method but there has been no elaboration about how people have drawn that conclusion. But you are seizing on it because I suspect you want Ferrari to be caught cheating so that a competitor to Hamilton can be removed from the table, clearing his way to a 5th title.

If they are cheating, then fair enough. But at the moment you are making accusations as if they were fact, and that's plain wrong

How often do drivers get removed for cheating after a result has been classified, that would be like never, they just say stop doing it.

Anyway it seems this has come about because Ferrari now have the best PU and teams are wanting to know what Ferrari are doing.

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote: They haven't been convicted of cheating as far as I know. What have I missed?

Maybe you missed a post you made about Mercedes having cheated their way to their titles because of the oil burning?

Maybe you missed the post where I said I would be upset IF it turned out to be the case. I stressed the IF more than once in that same conversation with you. It seems you suffer from selective interpretation where Mercedes are involved?

Surely it's a known fact that Mercedes and Ferrari are oil burning?

I think he means deliberately doing it to get more performance rather than just in the sense all engines burn oil.

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:
The first suspicions were only about Mercedes in 2014. An engineer with Ferrari connections called Benzing wrote about Mercedes only being able to hit the peak power they were if they were circumnavigating the fuel flow or using illegal fuel but no-one really paid any attention.

Then Ferrari signed the Mercedes combustion chief Cedric Cornebois in the summer 2014. He started on Jan.1st and oil burn is being discussed on Ferrari forums just a few days later but Benzing shuts up about it from there on in. And then the FIA are testing for oil burn but only on Mercedes and Ferrari cars from Spain 2015.

It's always stemmed from Mercedes but no-one in the English speaking press cared until Ferrari started getting more from it last year in Canada and Ferrari were accused of using their auxiliary tank to top up what they were burning.

Because stealing £100 is fine if you're both doing it but God forbid one of you steals an extra 20 on top.

If it was out and out cheating then Ferrari could have protested Mercedes rather than take it to another level?

Wow, so now we have graduated to Mercedes cheating doesn't count if Ferrari does something else? (Again, without any proof that Ferrari has done something)

I'm talking about Ferrari copying Mercedes' oil burning.

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote: there were lots of rumours that Mercedes were burning extra oil but no-one could figure out exactly how. Thats. The. Point

Illegally? plus any rumours came after Ferrari were also doing it.

Not even close to being true, Mercedes were first with the sheer amount of oil they went through dwarfing everyone else's in 2014 which is what raised FIA suspicion in the first place, they were using over 5ltrs of oil for a race back then(They're using under 2ltrs right now).

Then we had the leaks coming from some Ferrari and motorsport forums* that Cornebois and others had spilled the beans about additives in the oil (Normally forum rumour is what it is but considering this was Jan 2015 and how accurate the rumour was to what's been alleged since I think it has plenty of merit), then we had the Mercedes blue smoke finger pointing fiasco and then we had the Ferrari extra oil tank rumour last year after Canada.

The first time the FIA got involved to test for oil shenanigans was Spain 2015 when they took samples from both Seb's and Lewis's car.

Mercedes were first rumoured, then both Ferrari and Mercedes, then both were tested and now both still use the same amount which is still 3x the amount the other 2 EM's use. If we choose to ignore rumours and just go by when the FIA wanted to test then it's a joint affair in Spain 2015.

In no way was it Ferrari first.


* http://w11.zetaboards.com/Motorsports_M ... 0872655/1/

I never heard rumours of oil burning in 2014.

Towards the back end of the year there was some talk as I recall but it didn't really start until the ex Mercedes combustion chief started at Ferrari on January 1st 2015. That forum I linked to had a thread on it by the 5th. It also mentions paddock rumour about over the past 6 months so halfway through 2014.

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote: I don't know if they were. How are you missing this point? You're the only one making accusations of cheating as though they were based on fact. I'm just pointing out that where allegations are involved it only appears to upset you when they don't concern Mercedes

I think you totally miss the point I'm making, when was oil burning ever illegal, whereas the MGU-K has a legal limit of 160hp.

Deliberately burning oil for performance is completely illegal.

Surely the FIA have to know what's happening even if they can't prove it and by having a limit of 0.6L/100Km that's not exactly stopping it.

Pretty much what Horner says.

A poster on F1technical with a legit source said Renault asked for it to be lowered again at the recent strategy group meeting but Ferrari shot it down.

Renult/Honda managed it in the 0.1-0.2 range in Australia, I assume there must be some variance track to track so a 0.3 limit sounds fair to me. It's a smaller cut than we just had so adjusting shouldn't be an issue.

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:Illegally? plus any rumours came after Ferrari were also doing it.

Not even close to being true, Mercedes were first with the sheer amount of oil they went through dwarfing everyone else's in 2014 which is what raised FIA suspicion in the first place, they were using over 5ltrs of oil for a race back then(They're using under 2ltrs right now).

Then we had the leaks coming from some Ferrari and motorsport forums* that Cornebois and others had spilled the beans about additives in the oil (Normally forum rumour is what it is but considering this was Jan 2015 and how accurate the rumour was to what's been alleged since I think it has plenty of merit), then we had the Mercedes blue smoke finger pointing fiasco and then we had the Ferrari extra oil tank rumour last year after Canada.

The first time the FIA got involved to test for oil shenanigans was Spain 2015 when they took samples from both Seb's and Lewis's car.

Mercedes were first rumoured, then both Ferrari and Mercedes, then both were tested and now both still use the same amount which is still 3x the amount the other 2 EM's use. If we choose to ignore rumours and just go by when the FIA wanted to test then it's a joint affair in Spain 2015.

In no way was it Ferrari first.


* http://w11.zetaboards.com/Motorsports_M ... 0872655/1/

I never heard rumours of oil burning in 2014.

Towards the back end of the year there was some talk as I recall but it didn't really start until the ex Mercedes combustion chief started at Ferrari on January 1st 2015. That forum I linked to had a thread on it by the 5th. It also mentions paddock rumour about over the past 6 months so halfway through 2014.

Which again relates to what I said that it didn't rear it's head until after Ferrari were also doing it.

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:isn't that precisely what you are doing with Ferrari at the moment? I think that's the point being made

No in this case we are talking about a physical limit that's being exceeded and if that's the case then is it not a cheat, likewise if you exceed the fuel flow limit or the race fuel limit that would be similar, these are physical limitations that are in place not some working in the grey areas of the rules.

Well no, it's not really, because as Lotus49 points out above these limits are already being circumvented by more than one team. These specific allegations - and I can't stress that word enough - assume a very specific method but there has been no elaboration about how people have drawn that conclusion. But you are seizing on it because I suspect you want Ferrari to be caught cheating so that a competitor to Hamilton can be removed from the table, clearing his way to a 5th title.

If they are cheating, then fair enough. But at the moment you are making accusations as if they were fact, and that's plain wrong

How often do drivers get removed for cheating after a result has been classified, that would be like never, they just say stop doing it.

Anyway it seems this has come about because Ferrari now have the best PU and teams are wanting to know what Ferrari are doing.

If the team are penalised and forced to make changes to their car, this would undoubtedly have the some effect on performance

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:
The first suspicions were only about Mercedes in 2014. An engineer with Ferrari connections called Benzing wrote about Mercedes only being able to hit the peak power they were if they were circumnavigating the fuel flow or using illegal fuel but no-one really paid any attention.

Then Ferrari signed the Mercedes combustion chief Cedric Cornebois in the summer 2014. He started on Jan.1st and oil burn is being discussed on Ferrari forums just a few days later but Benzing shuts up about it from there on in. And then the FIA are testing for oil burn but only on Mercedes and Ferrari cars from Spain 2015.

It's always stemmed from Mercedes but no-one in the English speaking press cared until Ferrari started getting more from it last year in Canada and Ferrari were accused of using their auxiliary tank to top up what they were burning.

Because stealing £100 is fine if you're both doing it but God forbid one of you steals an extra 20 on top.

If it was out and out cheating then Ferrari could have protested Mercedes rather than take it to another level?

Wow, so now we have graduated to Mercedes cheating doesn't count if Ferrari does something else? (Again, without any proof that Ferrari has done something)

I'm talking about Ferrari copying Mercedes' oil burning.

Apologies, I misunderstood you. What do you mean by another level, what did they do?

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:I think you totally miss the point I'm making, when was oil burning ever illegal, whereas the MGU-K has a legal limit of 160hp.

Deliberately burning oil for performance is completely illegal.

Surely the FIA have to know what's happening even if they can't prove it and by having a limit of 0.6L/100Km that's not exactly stopping it.

Pretty much what Horner says.

A poster on F1technical with a legit source said Renault asked for it to be lowered again at the recent strategy group meeting but Ferrari shot it down.

Renult/Honda managed it in the 0.1-0.2 range in Australia, I assume there must be some variance track to track so a 0.3 limit sounds fair to me. It's a smaller cut than we just had so adjusting shouldn't be an issue.

Which as I said why is all this put onto Mercedes when Ferrari have very much taken the ball and run with it?

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote: Not even close to being true, Mercedes were first with the sheer amount of oil they went through dwarfing everyone else's in 2014 which is what raised FIA suspicion in the first place, they were using over 5ltrs of oil for a race back then(They're using under 2ltrs right now).

Then we had the leaks coming from some Ferrari and motorsport forums* that Cornebois and others had spilled the beans about additives in the oil (Normally forum rumour is what it is but considering this was Jan 2015 and how accurate the rumour was to what's been alleged since I think it has plenty of merit), then we had the Mercedes blue smoke finger pointing fiasco and then we had the Ferrari extra oil tank rumour last year after Canada.

The first time the FIA got involved to test for oil shenanigans was Spain 2015 when they took samples from both Seb's and Lewis's car.

Mercedes were first rumoured, then both Ferrari and Mercedes, then both were tested and now both still use the same amount which is still 3x the amount the other 2 EM's use. If we choose to ignore rumours and just go by when the FIA wanted to test then it's a joint affair in Spain 2015.

In no way was it Ferrari first.


* http://w11.zetaboards.com/Motorsports_M ... 0872655/1/

I never heard rumours of oil burning in 2014.

Towards the back end of the year there was some talk as I recall but it didn't really start until the ex Mercedes combustion chief started at Ferrari on January 1st 2015. That forum I linked to had a thread on it by the 5th. It also mentions paddock rumour about over the past 6 months so halfway through 2014.

Which again relates to what I said that it didn't rear it's head until after Ferrari were also doing it.

It doesn't really. It just means it likely came to light when the ex-Mercedes combustion chief spilled the beans. If the thread about it started on January 5th, then no-one would even have seen Ferrari's new PU by then

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:No in this case we are talking about a physical limit that's being exceeded and if that's the case then is it not a cheat, likewise if you exceed the fuel flow limit or the race fuel limit that would be similar, these are physical limitations that are in place not some working in the grey areas of the rules.

Well no, it's not really, because as Lotus49 points out above these limits are already being circumvented by more than one team. These specific allegations - and I can't stress that word enough - assume a very specific method but there has been no elaboration about how people have drawn that conclusion. But you are seizing on it because I suspect you want Ferrari to be caught cheating so that a competitor to Hamilton can be removed from the table, clearing his way to a 5th title.

If they are cheating, then fair enough. But at the moment you are making accusations as if they were fact, and that's plain wrong

How often do drivers get removed for cheating after a result has been classified, that would be like never, they just say stop doing it.

Anyway it seems this has come about because Ferrari now have the best PU and teams are wanting to know what Ferrari are doing.

If the team are penalised and forced to make changes to their car, this would undoubtedly have the some effect on performance

But the teams don't lose results or get banned as you suggested my motivation was for Ferrari to get removed from the table to clear the way for Hamilton.

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:I never heard rumours of oil burning in 2014.

Towards the back end of the year there was some talk as I recall but it didn't really start until the ex Mercedes combustion chief started at Ferrari on January 1st 2015. That forum I linked to had a thread on it by the 5th. It also mentions paddock rumour about over the past 6 months so halfway through 2014.

Which again relates to what I said that it didn't rear it's head until after Ferrari were also doing it.

It doesn't really. It just means it likely came to light when the ex-Mercedes combustion chief spilled the beans. If the thread about it started on January 5th, then no-one would even have seen Ferrari's new PU by then

Spilled the beans only to Ferrari not to the FIA or the press, then like I say Ferrari took the oil burning ball and ran with it harder than Mercedes it seems?

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote: Deliberately burning oil for performance is completely illegal.

Surely the FIA have to know what's happening even if they can't prove it and by having a limit of 0.6L/100Km that's not exactly stopping it.

Pretty much what Horner says.

A poster on F1technical with a legit source said Renault asked for it to be lowered again at the recent strategy group meeting but Ferrari shot it down.

Renult/Honda managed it in the 0.1-0.2 range in Australia, I assume there must be some variance track to track so a 0.3 limit sounds fair to me. It's a smaller cut than we just had so adjusting shouldn't be an issue.

Which as I said why is all this put onto Mercedes when Ferrari have very much taken the ball and run with it?

Mercedes were only mentioned as the ones who started it. It was brought up because you appear to have a peculiar blind spot whenever they do anything but home in like an Exocet whenever Ferrari are in the spotlight. An example of the above would be your fixation on Ferraris' alleged - again please note the word - extra oil tank, with you again claiming it a fact from nothing but forum rumour, but not even a whisper of any wrongdoing by Mercedes, despite all the evidence pointing to them being the initiators of the oil-burning anyway

I doubt it would even have been mentioned if you weren't so keen to condemn and convict Ferrari without any actual evidence being produced?

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote: Well no, it's not really, because as Lotus49 points out above these limits are already being circumvented by more than one team. These specific allegations - and I can't stress that word enough - assume a very specific method but there has been no elaboration about how people have drawn that conclusion. But you are seizing on it because I suspect you want Ferrari to be caught cheating so that a competitor to Hamilton can be removed from the table, clearing his way to a 5th title.

If they are cheating, then fair enough. But at the moment you are making accusations as if they were fact, and that's plain wrong

How often do drivers get removed for cheating after a result has been classified, that would be like never, they just say stop doing it.

Anyway it seems this has come about because Ferrari now have the best PU and teams are wanting to know what Ferrari are doing.

If the team are penalised and forced to make changes to their car, this would undoubtedly have the some effect on performance

But the teams don't lose results or get banned as you suggested my motivation was for Ferrari to get removed from the table to clear the way for Hamilton.

Reducing their performance would remove them as a competitor, would it not? Or are you suggesting the Saubers are a genuine competitor for Mercedes?

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote: Towards the back end of the year there was some talk as I recall but it didn't really start until the ex Mercedes combustion chief started at Ferrari on January 1st 2015. That forum I linked to had a thread on it by the 5th. It also mentions paddock rumour about over the past 6 months so halfway through 2014.

Which again relates to what I said that it didn't rear it's head until after Ferrari were also doing it.

It doesn't really. It just means it likely came to light when the ex-Mercedes combustion chief spilled the beans. If the thread about it started on January 5th, then no-one would even have seen Ferrari's new PU by then

Spilled the beans only to Ferrari not to the FIA or the press, then like I say Ferrari took the oil burning ball and ran with it harder than Mercedes it seems?

Spilled to his new team, yes. You think that's somehow unlikely?

Your second point seems to be completely made up as far as I can tell?

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote: If it was out and out cheating then Ferrari could have protested Mercedes rather than take it to another level?

Wow, so now we have graduated to Mercedes cheating doesn't count if Ferrari does something else? (Again, without any proof that Ferrari has done something)

I'm talking about Ferrari copying Mercedes' oil burning.

Apologies, I misunderstood you. What do you mean by another level, what did they do?

Well I was referring to the extra oil tank which has been since refuted, but something else has reared its head with suggestions that Ferrari are burning oil from the turbo with Mercedes asking for clarification from the FIA about the oil rules surrounding the turbo, it's also thought that all the oil smoke on start up from the Ferrari emanates from the turbo.

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote: Wow, so now we have graduated to Mercedes cheating doesn't count if Ferrari does something else? (Again, without any proof that Ferrari has done something)

I'm talking about Ferrari copying Mercedes' oil burning.

Apologies, I misunderstood you. What do you mean by another level, what did they do?

Well I was referring to the extra oil tank which has been since refuted, but something else has reared its head with suggestions that Ferrari are burning oil from the turbo with Mercedes asking for clarification from the FIA about the oil rules surrounding the turbo, it's also thought that all the oil smoke on start up from the Ferrari emanates from the turbo.

The turbo oil can leak and there are a few explanations about it (turbo bearings can leak if there's not enough back pressure, although I'm not an expert on this, etc.). The Mercs used to smoke as well all these years. It is not exactly something sinister.

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote: Wow, so now we have graduated to Mercedes cheating doesn't count if Ferrari does something else? (Again, without any proof that Ferrari has done something)

I'm talking about Ferrari copying Mercedes' oil burning.

Apologies, I misunderstood you. What do you mean by another level, what did they do?

Well I was referring to the extra oil tank which has been since refuted, but something else has reared its head with suggestions that Ferrari are burning oil from the turbo with Mercedes asking for clarification from the FIA about the oil rules surrounding the turbo, it's also thought that all the oil smoke on start up from the Ferrari emanates from the turbo.

The turbo oil can leak and there are a few explanations about it (turbo bearings can leak if there's not enough back pressure, although I'm not an expert on this, etc.). The Mercs used to smoke as well all these years. It is not exactly something sinister.

pokerman wrote:I've never seen a car smoke like the Ferrari, anyway it's a technical expert that's putting it out there

Mod Titanium wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote: I'm talking about Ferrari copying Mercedes' oil burning.

Apologies, I misunderstood you. What do you mean by another level, what did they do?

Well I was referring to the extra oil tank which has been since refuted, but something else has reared its head with suggestions that Ferrari are burning oil from the turbo with Mercedes asking for clarification from the FIA about the oil rules surrounding the turbo, it's also thought that all the oil smoke on start up from the Ferrari emanates from the turbo.

The turbo oil can leak and there are a few explanations about it (turbo bearings can leak if there's not enough back pressure, although I'm not an expert on this, etc.). The Mercs used to smoke as well all these years. It is not exactly something sinister.

pokerman wrote:I've never seen a car smoke like the Ferrari, anyway it's a technical expert that's putting it out there

imo the oil is from the amount of oil ferrari is burning compared to others. They are obviously burning more, hense the smoke. They might be using a oil feed from the turbos to mix into with the compressed turbo air for a better (oil/air) mixture instead of just dumping it into the engine.

As far as the turbo leaking oil due to the bearings then something is wrong with the turbo itself or the oil return to the oil pan. Turbo's are not designed to leak oil. Ferrari are doing something different in their setup to get the oil to possibly be rerouted causing oil to build up in the turbo since their is no boost pressure at start up. Once the car is moving and building boost the oil is pushed where its designed to go in their setup and the smoke clears.

Siao7 wrote:In simple terms yes. There is nothing "wrong" with the turbo, it is just that at low speeds when the turbo is not on, there is not enough pressure for the oil to go where it should be. Maybe this turbo design is not as good, but this does not mean that it is outright cheating on purpose. Instead of dumping oil in the engine they have a valve (if I remember correctly) that sends it out to exhaust, hence the plume. I read a theory somewhere in a forum but it was way technical for me. I'll try and find it again.

But the point being made repeatedly is that this is just a theory and we do not know (at this point) if it is on purpose, yet Ferrari has been judged and executed in these past few pages... Mercedes was doing this for years now, smoke and all, albeit not as much as the Ferrari's. The moment Ferrari has smoke certain posters are up on arms

Siao7 wrote:

Mod Titanium wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:Apologies, I misunderstood you. What do you mean by another level, what did they do?

Well I was referring to the extra oil tank which has been since refuted, but something else has reared its head with suggestions that Ferrari are burning oil from the turbo with Mercedes asking for clarification from the FIA about the oil rules surrounding the turbo, it's also thought that all the oil smoke on start up from the Ferrari emanates from the turbo.

The turbo oil can leak and there are a few explanations about it (turbo bearings can leak if there's not enough back pressure, although I'm not an expert on this, etc.). The Mercs used to smoke as well all these years. It is not exactly something sinister.

pokerman wrote:I've never seen a car smoke like the Ferrari, anyway it's a technical expert that's putting it out there

imo the oil is from the amount of oil ferrari is burning compared to others. They are obviously burning more, hense the smoke. They might be using a oil feed from the turbos to mix into with the compressed turbo air for a better (oil/air) mixture instead of just dumping it into the engine.

As far as the turbo leaking oil due to the bearings then something is wrong with the turbo itself or the oil return to the oil pan. Turbo's are not designed to leak oil. Ferrari are doing something different in their setup to get the oil to possibly be rerouted causing oil to build up in the turbo since their is no boost pressure at start up. Once the car is moving and building boost the oil is pushed where its designed to go in their setup and the smoke clears.

In simple terms yes. There is nothing "wrong" with the turbo, it is just that at low speeds when the turbo is not on, there is not enough pressure for the oil to go where it should be. Maybe this turbo design is not as good, but this does not mean that it is outright cheating on purpose. Instead of dumping oil in the engine they have a valve (if I remember correctly) that sends it out to exhaust, hence the plume. I read a theory somewhere in a forum but it was way technical for me. I'll try and find it again.

But the point being made repeatedly is that this is just a theory and we do not know (at this point) if it is on purpose, yet Ferrari has been judged and executed in these past few pages... Mercedes was doing this for years now, smoke and all, albeit not as much as the Ferrari's. The moment Ferrari has smoke certain posters are up on arms

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:Which again relates to what I said that it didn't rear it's head until after Ferrari were also doing it.

It doesn't really. It just means it likely came to light when the ex-Mercedes combustion chief spilled the beans. If the thread about it started on January 5th, then no-one would even have seen Ferrari's new PU by then

Spilled the beans only to Ferrari not to the FIA or the press, then like I say Ferrari took the oil burning ball and ran with it harder than Mercedes it seems?

Spilled to his new team, yes. You think that's somehow unlikely?

Your second point seems to be completely made up as far as I can tell?

You didn't read the post that it's Ferrari specifically that are preventing the oil usage from being reduced?

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:How often do drivers get removed for cheating after a result has been classified, that would be like never, they just say stop doing it.

Anyway it seems this has come about because Ferrari now have the best PU and teams are wanting to know what Ferrari are doing.

If the team are penalised and forced to make changes to their car, this would undoubtedly have the some effect on performance

But the teams don't lose results or get banned as you suggested my motivation was for Ferrari to get removed from the table to clear the way for Hamilton.

Reducing their performance would remove them as a competitor, would it not? Or are you suggesting the Saubers are a genuine competitor for Mercedes?

How does that remove Ferrari as a competitor, how many times has Mercedes' performance been reduced these past few years by a change in the rules, did that remove them as a competitor?

No you specifically said that I was looking to get Ferrari removed from the title challenge which can only mean some kind of ban or draconian penalty.

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:Surely the FIA have to know what's happening even if they can't prove it and by having a limit of 0.6L/100Km that's not exactly stopping it.

Pretty much what Horner says.

A poster on F1technical with a legit source said Renault asked for it to be lowered again at the recent strategy group meeting but Ferrari shot it down.

Renult/Honda managed it in the 0.1-0.2 range in Australia, I assume there must be some variance track to track so a 0.3 limit sounds fair to me. It's a smaller cut than we just had so adjusting shouldn't be an issue.

Which as I said why is all this put onto Mercedes when Ferrari have very much taken the ball and run with it?

Mercedes were only mentioned as the ones who started it. It was brought up because you appear to have a peculiar blind spot whenever they do anything but home in like an Exocet whenever Ferrari are in the spotlight. An example of the above would be your fixation on Ferraris' alleged - again please note the word - extra oil tank, with you again claiming it a fact from nothing but forum rumour, but not even a whisper of any wrongdoing by Mercedes, despite all the evidence pointing to them being the initiators of the oil-burning anyway

I doubt it would even have been mentioned if you weren't so keen to condemn and convict Ferrari without any actual evidence being produced?

No my reference point would be condemning Mercedes for all their titles if they have been oil burning whilst seemingly not taking into account that Ferrari themselves have been doing it since 2015.

Zoue wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Mod Titanium wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote: Well I was referring to the extra oil tank which has been since refuted, but something else has reared its head with suggestions that Ferrari are burning oil from the turbo with Mercedes asking for clarification from the FIA about the oil rules surrounding the turbo, it's also thought that all the oil smoke on start up from the Ferrari emanates from the turbo.

The turbo oil can leak and there are a few explanations about it (turbo bearings can leak if there's not enough back pressure, although I'm not an expert on this, etc.). The Mercs used to smoke as well all these years. It is not exactly something sinister.

pokerman wrote:I've never seen a car smoke like the Ferrari, anyway it's a technical expert that's putting it out there

imo the oil is from the amount of oil ferrari is burning compared to others. They are obviously burning more, hense the smoke. They might be using a oil feed from the turbos to mix into with the compressed turbo air for a better (oil/air) mixture instead of just dumping it into the engine.

As far as the turbo leaking oil due to the bearings then something is wrong with the turbo itself or the oil return to the oil pan. Turbo's are not designed to leak oil. Ferrari are doing something different in their setup to get the oil to possibly be rerouted causing oil to build up in the turbo since their is no boost pressure at start up. Once the car is moving and building boost the oil is pushed where its designed to go in their setup and the smoke clears.

In simple terms yes. There is nothing "wrong" with the turbo, it is just that at low speeds when the turbo is not on, there is not enough pressure for the oil to go where it should be. Maybe this turbo design is not as good, but this does not mean that it is outright cheating on purpose. Instead of dumping oil in the engine they have a valve (if I remember correctly) that sends it out to exhaust, hence the plume. I read a theory somewhere in a forum but it was way technical for me. I'll try and find it again.

But the point being made repeatedly is that this is just a theory and we do not know (at this point) if it is on purpose, yet Ferrari has been judged and executed in these past few pages... Mercedes was doing this for years now, smoke and all, albeit not as much as the Ferrari's. The moment Ferrari has smoke certain posters are up on arms

Yeah it's your last paragraph that is a little annoying. It's fine when Mercedes do it but Armageddon when anybody else is involved.

Definitely too technical for me!

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote: Spilled the beans only to Ferrari not to the FIA or the press, then like I say Ferrari took the oil burning ball and ran with it harder than Mercedes it seems?

Spilled to his new team, yes. You think that's somehow unlikely?

Your second point seems to be completely made up as far as I can tell?

You didn't read the post that it's Ferrari specifically that are preventing the oil usage from being reduced?

This means they "ran it harder than Mercedes?" Is this what upsets you? Not the fact they are burning oil (or rather, the allegation), but that they allegedly doing it more than Mercedes?

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote: Illegally? plus any rumours came after Ferrari were also doing it.

Not even close to being true, Mercedes were first with the sheer amount of oil they went through dwarfing everyone else's in 2014 which is what raised FIA suspicion in the first place, they were using over 5ltrs of oil for a race back then(They're using under 2ltrs right now).

Then we had the leaks coming from some Ferrari and motorsport forums* that Cornebois and others had spilled the beans about additives in the oil (Normally forum rumour is what it is but considering this was Jan 2015 and how accurate the rumour was to what's been alleged since I think it has plenty of merit), then we had the Mercedes blue smoke finger pointing fiasco and then we had the Ferrari extra oil tank rumour last year after Canada.

The first time the FIA got involved to test for oil shenanigans was Spain 2015 when they took samples from both Seb's and Lewis's car.

Mercedes were first rumoured, then both Ferrari and Mercedes, then both were tested and now both still use the same amount which is still 3x the amount the other 2 EM's use. If we choose to ignore rumours and just go by when the FIA wanted to test then it's a joint affair in Spain 2015.

In no way was it Ferrari first.


* http://w11.zetaboards.com/Motorsports_M ... 0872655/1/

I never heard rumours of oil burning in 2014.

Towards the back end of the year there was some talk as I recall but it didn't really start until the ex Mercedes combustion chief started at Ferrari on January 1st 2015. That forum I linked to had a thread on it by the 5th. It also mentions paddock rumour about over the past 6 months so halfway through 2014.

Which again relates to what I said that it didn't rear it's head until after Ferrari were also doing it.

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote: If the team are penalised and forced to make changes to their car, this would undoubtedly have the some effect on performance

But the teams don't lose results or get banned as you suggested my motivation was for Ferrari to get removed from the table to clear the way for Hamilton.

Reducing their performance would remove them as a competitor, would it not? Or are you suggesting the Saubers are a genuine competitor for Mercedes?

How does that remove Ferrari as a competitor, how many times has Mercedes' performance been reduced these past few years by a change in the rules, did that remove them as a competitor?

No you specifically said that I was looking to get Ferrari removed from the title challenge which can only mean some kind of ban or draconian penalty.

No I said a competitor to Hamilton can be removed from the table. If they are forced to make a change which compromises their performance, then they will by implication no longer be as competitive and therefore less of a threat. Isn't this why you are upset with Ferrari apparently burning oil but haven't made a single objection to Mercedes doing it?

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote: Pretty much what Horner says.

A poster on F1technical with a legit source said Renault asked for it to be lowered again at the recent strategy group meeting but Ferrari shot it down.

Renult/Honda managed it in the 0.1-0.2 range in Australia, I assume there must be some variance track to track so a 0.3 limit sounds fair to me. It's a smaller cut than we just had so adjusting shouldn't be an issue.

Which as I said why is all this put onto Mercedes when Ferrari have very much taken the ball and run with it?

Mercedes were only mentioned as the ones who started it. It was brought up because you appear to have a peculiar blind spot whenever they do anything but home in like an Exocet whenever Ferrari are in the spotlight. An example of the above would be your fixation on Ferraris' alleged - again please note the word - extra oil tank, with you again claiming it a fact from nothing but forum rumour, but not even a whisper of any wrongdoing by Mercedes, despite all the evidence pointing to them being the initiators of the oil-burning anyway

I doubt it would even have been mentioned if you weren't so keen to condemn and convict Ferrari without any actual evidence being produced?

No my reference point would be condemning Mercedes for all their titles if they have been oil burning whilst seemingly not taking into account that Ferrari themselves have been doing it since 2015.

At least you included the "if." My whole point was IF Mercedes had been found to have done it, then I would be upset as they would have won with an illegal car. But I have never judged and sentenced as you appear to be doing with Ferrari. You seem very keen to accept rumour as fact, as long as it doesn't involve Mercedes?

But I guess you missed my initial post on this thread - which is odd, as it's the very first reply - where I said that there would need to be sanctions if Ferrari were found to be doing something which was clearly an attempt at circumventing the rules?

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote: I think you totally miss the point I'm making, when was oil burning ever illegal, whereas the MGU-K has a legal limit of 160hp.

Deliberately burning oil for performance is completely illegal.

Surely the FIA have to know what's happening even if they can't prove it and by having a limit of 0.6L/100Km that's not exactly stopping it.

Pretty much what Horner says.

A poster on F1technical with a legit source said Renault asked for it to be lowered again at the recent strategy group meeting but Ferrari shot it down.

Renult/Honda managed it in the 0.1-0.2 range in Australia, I assume there must be some variance track to track so a 0.3 limit sounds fair to me. It's a smaller cut than we just had so adjusting shouldn't be an issue.

Which as I said why is all this put onto Mercedes when Ferrari have very much taken the ball and run with it?

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote: Which again relates to what I said that it didn't rear it's head until after Ferrari were also doing it.

It doesn't really. It just means it likely came to light when the ex-Mercedes combustion chief spilled the beans. If the thread about it started on January 5th, then no-one would even have seen Ferrari's new PU by then

Spilled the beans only to Ferrari not to the FIA or the press, then like I say Ferrari took the oil burning ball and ran with it harder than Mercedes it seems?

Spilled to his new team, yes. You think that's somehow unlikely?

Your second point seems to be completely made up as far as I can tell?

You didn't read the post that it's Ferrari specifically that are preventing the oil usage from being reduced?

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote: Not even close to being true, Mercedes were first with the sheer amount of oil they went through dwarfing everyone else's in 2014 which is what raised FIA suspicion in the first place, they were using over 5ltrs of oil for a race back then(They're using under 2ltrs right now).

Then we had the leaks coming from some Ferrari and motorsport forums* that Cornebois and others had spilled the beans about additives in the oil (Normally forum rumour is what it is but considering this was Jan 2015 and how accurate the rumour was to what's been alleged since I think it has plenty of merit), then we had the Mercedes blue smoke finger pointing fiasco and then we had the Ferrari extra oil tank rumour last year after Canada.

The first time the FIA got involved to test for oil shenanigans was Spain 2015 when they took samples from both Seb's and Lewis's car.

Mercedes were first rumoured, then both Ferrari and Mercedes, then both were tested and now both still use the same amount which is still 3x the amount the other 2 EM's use. If we choose to ignore rumours and just go by when the FIA wanted to test then it's a joint affair in Spain 2015.

In no way was it Ferrari first.


* http://w11.zetaboards.com/Motorsports_M ... 0872655/1/

I never heard rumours of oil burning in 2014.

Towards the back end of the year there was some talk as I recall but it didn't really start until the ex Mercedes combustion chief started at Ferrari on January 1st 2015. That forum I linked to had a thread on it by the 5th. It also mentions paddock rumour about over the past 6 months so halfway through 2014.

Which again relates to what I said that it didn't rear it's head until after Ferrari were also doing it.

Ferrari weren't doing it at that point, they were talking about what Mercedes were doing. (January 2015 talking about Mercedes in 2014)

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote: Deliberately burning oil for performance is completely illegal.

Surely the FIA have to know what's happening even if they can't prove it and by having a limit of 0.6L/100Km that's not exactly stopping it.

Pretty much what Horner says.

A poster on F1technical with a legit source said Renault asked for it to be lowered again at the recent strategy group meeting but Ferrari shot it down.

Renult/Honda managed it in the 0.1-0.2 range in Australia, I assume there must be some variance track to track so a 0.3 limit sounds fair to me. It's a smaller cut than we just had so adjusting shouldn't be an issue.

Which as I said why is all this put onto Mercedes when Ferrari have very much taken the ball and run with it?

Who's trying to put it all on Mercedes? They just started it, no-one's denied Ferrari started doing it too.

We'd be back to being okay with both stealing £100 but up in arms if Ferrari then stole £20 more. You're either outraged at the theft rather than who's stealing more between the two thieves, surely?