planetf1.com

http://www.planetf1.com/news/ferrari-fa ... in-monaco/

The SF71H has come under a lot of scrutiny already this season as Ferrari continue to explore the limits of how the 2018 regulations can be interpreted.

The Scuderia introduced new mirrors attached to the Halo in Spain, but the winglets that were also attached to the cockpit safety device have been banned by the FIA following team complaints.

And now other teams have asked the FIA for clarification on how Ferrari are distributing their electrical power, with a suspicion circulating that the Prancing Horse are getting short, additional boosts of 20HP in qualifying.

According to Auto Motor und Sport, Ferrari are being accused of periodically bypassing measuring sensors in order to achieve more than the four megajoules allowed.

This effect would come from a deliberate manipulation of electrical resistance and battery output.

If this is actually happening I guess the FIA could see it in Ferrari's race telemetry?
If proven that they have been deliberately breaking the rules what could or should be the outcome?

If a team is bending the rules or pushing the boundaries a bit far, then generally I have no problem with that. Often it's down to rule interpretation and then there's an argument for saying the rules should be better defined. Example for that might be the recent Ferrari mirror design.

However, if a team is acting with a deliberate intent to bypass the rules entirely, then as far as I'm concerned that's cheating and strong sanctions should be imposed (can't think what at the moment, I guess it depends on the severity). Example for that might be the VAG emission scandal, where software was programmed to deliberately defraud the control process. I'm not an engineer, so don't know if the OP example is a consequence of something else or straightforward cheating, but if the latter then I'm afraid they would need to be brought to task

Sebastien should just push his car. This way it will be legal enough for everyone, including Merc.

paul_gmb wrote:Sebastien should just push his car. This way it will be legal enough for everyone, including Merc.

So Ferrari basically should be allowed to bypass the measuring sensors that ensure that teams are not cheating in your opinion?

Also was it not last year that Ferrari ran an extra oil tank that was basically an extra fuel tank, this is actually quite a serious offence similar to Red Bull ignoring the fuel flow sensor and going above the allowable limit in Australia 2014, they got disqualified.

I'll be interested to see how this develops...

Yellowbin74 wrote:I'll be interested to see how this develops...

Apparently it will not develop because it's been used as leverage to push through the new aero regs for next year that Ferrari were against and now they have given their approval.

pokerman wrote:

Yellowbin74 wrote:I'll be interested to see how this develops...

Apparently it will not develop because it's been used as leverage to push through the new aero regs for next year that Ferrari were against and now they have given their approval.

If their car was illegal and this was used to force through the changes to avoid penalties it can still develop.
Brushing it to one side for Ferraris infractions so far, rightly or wrongly, is one thing; the developments will be Ferrari now having to make these parts legal and how that will affect their pace and championship...

dompclarke wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Yellowbin74 wrote:I'll be interested to see how this develops...

Apparently it will not develop because it's been used as leverage to push through the new aero regs for next year that Ferrari were against and now they have given their approval.

If their car was illegal and this was used to force through the changes to avoid penalties it can still develop.
Brushing it to one side for Ferraris infractions so far, rightly or wrongly, is one thing; the developments will be Ferrari now having to make these parts legal and how that will affect their pace and championship...

Well specifically they were using it to cheat in qualifying so that's basically how it will affect them.

pokerman wrote:

dompclarke wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Yellowbin74 wrote:I'll be interested to see how this develops...

Apparently it will not develop because it's been used as leverage to push through the new aero regs for next year that Ferrari were against and now they have given their approval.

If their car was illegal and this was used to force through the changes to avoid penalties it can still develop.
Brushing it to one side for Ferraris infractions so far, rightly or wrongly, is one thing; the developments will be Ferrari now having to make these parts legal and how that will affect their pace and championship...

Well specifically they were using it to cheat in qualifying so that's basically how it will affect them.

How did we jump fro "being accused of" to "they were using it"???

Wait until we get some feedback before you execute them, what do you say?

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

dompclarke wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Yellowbin74 wrote:I'll be interested to see how this develops...

Apparently it will not develop because it's been used as leverage to push through the new aero regs for next year that Ferrari were against and now they have given their approval.

If their car was illegal and this was used to force through the changes to avoid penalties it can still develop.
Brushing it to one side for Ferraris infractions so far, rightly or wrongly, is one thing; the developments will be Ferrari now having to make these parts legal and how that will affect their pace and championship...

Well specifically they were using it to cheat in qualifying so that's basically how it will affect them.

How did we jump fro "being accused of" to "they were using it"???

Wait until we get some feedback before you execute them, what do you say?

Well there is plenty of smoke from numerous sources, and with this particular post I was answering how it may affect them.

pokerman wrote:

paul_gmb wrote:Sebastien should just push his car. This way it will be legal enough for everyone, including Merc.

So Ferrari basically should be allowed to bypass the measuring sensors that ensure that teams are not cheating in your opinion?

Also was it not last year that Ferrari ran an extra oil tank that was basically an extra fuel tank, this is actually quite a serious offence similar to Red Bull ignoring the fuel flow sensor and going above the allowable limit in Australia 2014, they got disqualified.

The extra oil tank being removed was never confirmed by either the FIA or Ferrari to my knowledge to be fair. All of the cars have auxiliary oil tanks as far as I'm aware.

And it's no more or less like that Red Bull example than any of the oil burn rumours which falls predominantly on both Ferrari and Mercedes and still do.

pokerman wrote:

Yellowbin74 wrote:I'll be interested to see how this develops...

Apparently it will not develop because it's been used as leverage to push through the new aero regs for next year that Ferrari were against and now they have given their approval.

I thought they voted against?

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

dompclarke wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Yellowbin74 wrote:I'll be interested to see how this develops...

Apparently it will not develop because it's been used as leverage to push through the new aero regs for next year that Ferrari were against and now they have given their approval.

If their car was illegal and this was used to force through the changes to avoid penalties it can still develop.
Brushing it to one side for Ferraris infractions so far, rightly or wrongly, is one thing; the developments will be Ferrari now having to make these parts legal and how that will affect their pace and championship...

Well specifically they were using it to cheat in qualifying so that's basically how it will affect them.

How did we jump fro "being accused of" to "they were using it"???

Wait until we get some feedback before you execute them, what do you say?

Consider your sources, Siao... and then laugh it off.

Blake wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

dompclarke wrote:

pokerman wrote: Apparently it will not develop because it's been used as leverage to push through the new aero regs for next year that Ferrari were against and now they have given their approval.

If their car was illegal and this was used to force through the changes to avoid penalties it can still develop.
Brushing it to one side for Ferraris infractions so far, rightly or wrongly, is one thing; the developments will be Ferrari now having to make these parts legal and how that will affect their pace and championship...

Well specifically they were using it to cheat in qualifying so that's basically how it will affect them.

How did we jump fro "being accused of" to "they were using it"???

Wait until we get some feedback before you execute them, what do you say?

Consider your sources, Siao... and then laugh it off.

You are making a good point, hard to argue!

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

dompclarke wrote:

pokerman wrote: Apparently it will not develop because it's been used as leverage to push through the new aero regs for next year that Ferrari were against and now they have given their approval.

If their car was illegal and this was used to force through the changes to avoid penalties it can still develop.
Brushing it to one side for Ferraris infractions so far, rightly or wrongly, is one thing; the developments will be Ferrari now having to make these parts legal and how that will affect their pace and championship...

Well specifically they were using it to cheat in qualifying so that's basically how it will affect them.

How did we jump fro "being accused of" to "they were using it"???

Wait until we get some feedback before you execute them, what do you say?

Well there is plenty of smoke from numerous sources, and with this particular post I was answering how it may affect them.

No, you didn't say how it MAY affect them, you said they were using it to cheat in qualifying and it will affect them. I've highlighted it for you as well.

Come on Poker, you are being unfair to say the least, if not biased. Wait for the FIA's clarification at least before you shoot them down.

Apparently FIA will issue a directive with regards to this during Monaco GP week so there is definitely something afoot. And AMuS only go to print when they have foolproof sources so considering that Ferrari are now suddenly in full support of the new regs, something they were totally against just a week ago, sure gets my attention.

Apparently FIA will issue a directive with regards to this during Monaco GP week so there is definitely something afoot. And AMuS only go to print when they have foolproof sources so considering that Ferrari are now suddenly in full support of the new regs, something they were totally against just a week ago, sure gets my attention.

pokerman wrote:

paul_gmb wrote:Sebastien should just push his car. This way it will be legal enough for everyone, including Merc.

So Ferrari basically should be allowed to bypass the measuring sensors that ensure that teams are not cheating in your opinion?

Also was it not last year that Ferrari ran an extra oil tank that was basically an extra fuel tank, this is actually quite a serious offence similar to Red Bull ignoring the fuel flow sensor and going above the allowable limit in Australia 2014, they got disqualified.

I really support Fernando and Mclaren, so it will be crazy of me to support Ferrari in this sense.

But right now my main concern is slowing down Merc. If Ferrari takes the clear lead, I will be concerned on slowing down Ferrari.

1994 I really supported Damon. I almost cried in Adelaide. But looking back, even if Benetton were running traction control, it was a great season of racing. No one was clearly in front. That is my way of seeing things related to F1.

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Yellowbin74 wrote:I'll be interested to see how this develops...

Apparently it will not develop because it's been used as leverage to push through the new aero regs for next year that Ferrari were against and now they have given their approval.

I thought they voted against?

Initially they did, now it's being said that they agree.

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

dompclarke wrote: If their car was illegal and this was used to force through the changes to avoid penalties it can still develop.
Brushing it to one side for Ferraris infractions so far, rightly or wrongly, is one thing; the developments will be Ferrari now having to make these parts legal and how that will affect their pace and championship...

Well specifically they were using it to cheat in qualifying so that's basically how it will affect them.

How did we jump fro "being accused of" to "they were using it"???

Wait until we get some feedback before you execute them, what do you say?

Well there is plenty of smoke from numerous sources, and with this particular post I was answering how it may affect them.

No, you didn't say how it MAY affect them, you said they were using it to cheat in qualifying and it will affect them. I've highlighted it for you as well.

Come on Poker, you are being unfair to say the least, if not biased. Wait for the FIA's clarification at least before you shoot them down.

This is what's been said that they were bypassing the cheat sensor so they had 20hp extra for qualifying, maybe the only actual confirmation will be Ferrari's about turn on the new aero regs?

paul_gmb wrote:

pokerman wrote:

paul_gmb wrote:Sebastien should just push his car. This way it will be legal enough for everyone, including Merc.

So Ferrari basically should be allowed to bypass the measuring sensors that ensure that teams are not cheating in your opinion?

Also was it not last year that Ferrari ran an extra oil tank that was basically an extra fuel tank, this is actually quite a serious offence similar to Red Bull ignoring the fuel flow sensor and going above the allowable limit in Australia 2014, they got disqualified.

I really support Fernando and Mclaren, so it will be crazy of me to support Ferrari in this sense.

But right now my main concern is slowing down Merc. If Ferrari takes the clear lead, I will be concerned on slowing down Ferrari.

1994 I really supported Damon. I almost cried in Adelaide. But looking back, even if Benetton were running traction control, it was a great season of racing. No one was clearly in front. That is my way of seeing things related to F1.

So let teams blatantly cheat in order to win?

pokerman wrote:This is what's been said that they were bypassing the cheat sensor so they had 20hp extra for qualifying, maybe the only actual confirmation will be Ferrari's about turn on the new aero regs?

The only actual confirmation would be the FIA saying they were doing it. Ferrari suddenly changing their stance on the new regulations in no way confirms that they were ever cheating, let alone in that particular way.

pokerman wrote:

Lotus49 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Yellowbin74 wrote:I'll be interested to see how this develops...

Apparently it will not develop because it's been used as leverage to push through the new aero regs for next year that Ferrari were against and now they have given their approval.

I thought they voted against?

Initially they did, now it's being said that they agree.

Good for them but it already got voted through so what does it matter if they've now changed their mind about it?

Unless you're suggesting they'd go as far as using their veto then it doesn't matter if they're on board or not, it's happening.

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote: Well specifically they were using it to cheat in qualifying so that's basically how it will affect them.

How did we jump fro "being accused of" to "they were using it"???

Wait until we get some feedback before you execute them, what do you say?

Well there is plenty of smoke from numerous sources, and with this particular post I was answering how it may affect them.

No, you didn't say how it MAY affect them, you said they were using it to cheat in qualifying and it will affect them. I've highlighted it for you as well.

Come on Poker, you are being unfair to say the least, if not biased. Wait for the FIA's clarification at least before you shoot them down.

This is what's been said that they were bypassing the cheat sensor so they had 20hp extra for qualifying, maybe the only actual confirmation will be Ferrari's about turn on the new aero regs?

How is that confirmation?

We'll get confirmation if/when the FIA catch them and act on it. Much like the oil burn and hpc suspensions it may too tricky to actually catch them in the act in which case they'll change things that they think will hamper it or ban things it relies on etc..

Someone has said something on the internet and the usual suspect are up in arms.

pokerman wrote:

paul_gmb wrote:

pokerman wrote:

paul_gmb wrote:Sebastien should just push his car. This way it will be legal enough for everyone, including Merc.

So Ferrari basically should be allowed to bypass the measuring sensors that ensure that teams are not cheating in your opinion?

Also was it not last year that Ferrari ran an extra oil tank that was basically an extra fuel tank, this is actually quite a serious offence similar to Red Bull ignoring the fuel flow sensor and going above the allowable limit in Australia 2014, they got disqualified.

I really support Fernando and Mclaren, so it will be crazy of me to support Ferrari in this sense.

But right now my main concern is slowing down Merc. If Ferrari takes the clear lead, I will be concerned on slowing down Ferrari.

1994 I really supported Damon. I almost cried in Adelaide. But looking back, even if Benetton were running traction control, it was a great season of racing. No one was clearly in front. That is my way of seeing things related to F1.

So let teams blatantly cheat in order to win?

who knows man...

I think you are definitely right in what you say. It's nothing wrong in your opinion.

But I have enough politics in my day to day life, to be able to follow every little thing in F1. It's just how I see it at this moment.

Probably I won't have the same opinion if Mclaren would be fighting Ferrari for the title. So yes, I may be a bit biased

I'm wondering how the other teams can have such insights into Ferrari's distribution of electrical power. Wonder how they monitor it?

Zoue wrote:I'm wondering how the other teams can have such insights into Ferrari's distribution of electrical power. Wonder how they monitor it?

Maybe Alonso has found a new pen pal (or copier pal) at Ferrari?

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote: Well specifically they were using it to cheat in qualifying so that's basically how it will affect them.

How did we jump fro "being accused of" to "they were using it"???

Wait until we get some feedback before you execute them, what do you say?

Well there is plenty of smoke from numerous sources, and with this particular post I was answering how it may affect them.

No, you didn't say how it MAY affect them, you said they were using it to cheat in qualifying and it will affect them. I've highlighted it for you as well.

Come on Poker, you are being unfair to say the least, if not biased. Wait for the FIA's clarification at least before you shoot them down.

This is what's been said that they were bypassing the cheat sensor so they had 20hp extra for qualifying, maybe the only actual confirmation will be Ferrari's about turn on the new aero regs?

Can you actually see the difference? Between "being said" to "they were using it"? "What's being said" is not proof.

There is an investigation going on, based only on other teams going to the FIA and asking them about it, so if the car has passed the FIA's scrutiny so far, having some teams moan does not constitute evidence. Let's just wait and see before we damn them.

Plus, Zoue is correct in being sceptical on how did the other teams get such an insight, but that's another topic I guess.

Zoue wrote:If a team is bending the rules or pushing the boundaries a bit far, then generally I have no problem with that. Often it's down to rule interpretation and then there's an argument for saying the rules should be better defined. Example for that might be the recent Ferrari mirror design.

However, if a team is acting with a deliberate intent to bypass the rules entirely, then as far as I'm concerned that's cheating and strong sanctions should be imposed (can't think what at the moment, I guess it depends on the severity). Example for that might be the VAG emission scandal, where software was programmed to deliberately defraud the control process. I'm not an engineer, so don't know if the OP example is a consequence of something else or straightforward cheating, but if the latter then I'm afraid they would need to be brought to task

VAG didn't bend rules, they simply cheated. In fact there is no such a thing as bending rules. Something is either legal or not. Remember double diffuses? At the beginning people though it was bending rules, then later it became norm since every car had it because it was simply legal. There were many devices like that.

paul_gmb wrote:

pokerman wrote: 1994 I really supported Damon. I almost cried in Adelaide. But looking back, even if Benetton were running traction control, it was a great season of racing. No one was clearly in front. That is my way of seeing things related to F1.

So if you can't beat them then cheat? That's straight out of the Justin Gatlin book of sporting morals.

Lojik wrote:

paul_gmb wrote:

pokerman wrote: 1994 I really supported Damon. I almost cried in Adelaide. But looking back, even if Benetton were running traction control, it was a great season of racing. No one was clearly in front. That is my way of seeing things related to F1.

So if you can't beat them then cheat? That's straight out of the Justin Gatlin book of sporting morals.

I don't think paul_gmb supports cheating nor does he say that it is ok to cheat, how did you get to that conclusion? He only mentions that it was a great season as the racing was great.

I can't speak for him of course!

Siao7 wrote:

Lojik wrote:

paul_gmb wrote:

pokerman wrote: 1994 I really supported Damon. I almost cried in Adelaide. But looking back, even if Benetton were running traction control, it was a great season of racing. No one was clearly in front. That is my way of seeing things related to F1.

So if you can't beat them then cheat? That's straight out of the Justin Gatlin book of sporting morals.

I don't think paul_gmb supports cheating nor does he say that it is ok to cheat, how did you get to that conclusion? He only mentions that it was a great season as the racing was great.

I can't speak for him of course!

He says that even if the Bennetton was using traction control (cheating) then it's fine as it was a close season. Not much of a stretch. No biggie really, just a strange way to look at things I think.

Lojik wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Lojik wrote:

paul_gmb wrote:

pokerman wrote: 1994 I really supported Damon. I almost cried in Adelaide. But looking back, even if Benetton were running traction control, it was a great season of racing. No one was clearly in front. That is my way of seeing things related to F1.

So if you can't beat them then cheat? That's straight out of the Justin Gatlin book of sporting morals.

I don't think paul_gmb supports cheating nor does he say that it is ok to cheat, how did you get to that conclusion? He only mentions that it was a great season as the racing was great.

I can't speak for him of course!

He says that even if the Bennetton was using traction control (cheating) then it's fine as it was a close season. Not much of a stretch. No biggie really, just a strange way to look at things I think.

I agree no biggie, but I don't think I read it the same way as you. He doesn't say that cheating is fine itself; only that the season was great racing, even if it was the result of (alleged let's not forget) cheating.

Anyway, semantics!

dizlexik wrote:

Zoue wrote:If a team is bending the rules or pushing the boundaries a bit far, then generally I have no problem with that. Often it's down to rule interpretation and then there's an argument for saying the rules should be better defined. Example for that might be the recent Ferrari mirror design.

However, if a team is acting with a deliberate intent to bypass the rules entirely, then as far as I'm concerned that's cheating and strong sanctions should be imposed (can't think what at the moment, I guess it depends on the severity). Example for that might be the VAG emission scandal, where software was programmed to deliberately defraud the control process. I'm not an engineer, so don't know if the OP example is a consequence of something else or straightforward cheating, but if the latter then I'm afraid they would need to be brought to task

VAG didn't bend rules, they simply cheated. In fact there is no such a thing as bending rules. Something is either legal or not. Remember double diffuses? At the beginning people though it was bending rules, then later it became norm since every car had it because it was simply legal. There were many devices like that.

I don't think you read my post properly, as you'll see that I specifically separated those who are bending the rules and those like VAG who cheated.

I think the rest of your post is getting into semantics territory. If the rules aren't written well and allow ambiguity, then taking advantage of that ambiguity isn't cheating in my book. However if someone does something with the deliberate intention of circumventing the rules - VAG again - then that's clearly cheating, not misinterpretation. I think it's quite easy to differentiate the two.

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:This is what's been said that they were bypassing the cheat sensor so they had 20hp extra for qualifying, maybe the only actual confirmation will be Ferrari's about turn on the new aero regs?

The only actual confirmation would be the FIA saying they were doing it. Ferrari suddenly changing their stance on the new regulations in no way confirms that they were ever cheating, let alone in that particular way.

If true I would say it's quite a serious matter in which given that it's Ferrari perhaps for the benefit of the sport a certain amount of diplomacy might be advised.

Covalent wrote:Someone has said something on the internet and the usual suspect are up in arms.

Not just someone is it, various people.

pokerman wrote:

Covalent wrote:Someone has said something on the internet and the usual suspect are up in arms.

Not just someone is it, various people.

I bet they're still all referring to that same someone on the internet, i.e. AMuS who don't seem to be able to provide a source. Incidentally they also mention that the cars were checked after the Spanish GP but nothing illegal was found.

But you're free to get all worked up about it I suppose.

pokerman wrote:

Covalent wrote:Someone has said something on the internet and the usual suspect are up in arms.

Not just someone is it, various people.

In the video by Marc Priestly in another thread he mentioned that Mercedes' performance dropped after Australia at least in part because the FIA found something in their engine management that they deemed questionable and Mercedes were "asked" to remove it. I'm just wondering why you aren't in arms about that, too. Or is it just when Ferrari are in the spotlight that you feel action should be taken?

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote: Well there is plenty of smoke from numerous sources, and with this particular post I was answering how it may affect them.

No, you didn't say how it MAY affect them, you said they were using it to cheat in qualifying and it will affect them. I've highlighted it for you as well.

Come on Poker, you are being unfair to say the least, if not biased. Wait for the FIA's clarification at least before you shoot them down.

This is what's been said that they were bypassing the cheat sensor so they had 20hp extra for qualifying, maybe the only actual confirmation will be Ferrari's about turn on the new aero regs?

Can you actually see the difference? Between "being said" to "they were using it"? "What's being said" is not proof.

There is an investigation going on, based only on other teams going to the FIA and asking them about it, so if the car has passed the FIA's scrutiny so far, having some teams moan does not constitute evidence. Let's just wait and see before we damn them.

Plus, Zoue is correct in being sceptical on how did the other teams get such an insight, but that's another topic I guess.

Don't they use GPS and sound equipment to evaluate the performance of the cars, they are able to see how fast the cars are accelerating and get an overall idea about the output of the PU's?