The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

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seaflyer
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by seaflyer »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV4LYuGbl6I

Take a good look. When sizing up the video I think it really looks like Alonso hits Raikkonen BEFORE he looses it.

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Herb »

Zoue wrote:
Herb wrote:
Zoue wrote:http://www.grandprix247.com/2015/06/24/ferrari-makes-bid-to-sign-bottas-from-williams/

Well, if this is true, it's the end of the road for Kimi. Part of me is sad, but tbh I don't blame Ferrari one bit. Don't think Bottas is a good choice, though


As I've said before, I always take reports from that website with a massive pinch of salt, but if true, I'll be sad to see Kimi go too.

However, I just don't think he is motivated at the minute - if this gets confirmed, will Kimi even bother seeing out this season?

I think he is motivated, or he wouldn't be so clearly upset with all the mistakes and the press hounding him. I think he's under enormous pressure, which he wouldn't be if he didn't care


Being a bigger fan of him than me, I think you probably watch and read more interviews with him so probably better placed - but in the post-race interview with him on Sunday he just seemed bored to me.

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Herb »

seaflyer wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV4LYuGbl6I

Take a good look. When sizing up the video I think it really looks like Alonso hits Raikkonen BEFORE he looses it.


You can tell absolutely nothing from that video - it's too pixelated to see what's going on.

If everyone around the teams say there was no contact, I'm inclined to believe them.

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Zoue »

Herb wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Herb wrote:
Zoue wrote:http://www.grandprix247.com/2015/06/24/ferrari-makes-bid-to-sign-bottas-from-williams/

Well, if this is true, it's the end of the road for Kimi. Part of me is sad, but tbh I don't blame Ferrari one bit. Don't think Bottas is a good choice, though


As I've said before, I always take reports from that website with a massive pinch of salt, but if true, I'll be sad to see Kimi go too.

However, I just don't think he is motivated at the minute - if this gets confirmed, will Kimi even bother seeing out this season?

I think he is motivated, or he wouldn't be so clearly upset with all the mistakes and the press hounding him. I think he's under enormous pressure, which he wouldn't be if he didn't care


Being a bigger fan of him than me, I think you probably watch and read more interviews with him so probably better placed - but in the post-race interview with him on Sunday he just seemed bored to me.

I think that's just the way he comes across, which is part of the reason for his Iceman name and image. I don't think he's quite as cool as people think. He just appears very mistrustful of the media and is always guarded. People take that as disinterest but I think that's far from the truth.

He blew his stack at reporters in Austria and his reactions immediately after his spins in Canada and Austria suggest someone who's on the edge. Tbh I'm not surprised and put a lot of it down to the fact that Ferrari have dangled his contract in front of him in public since the beginning of the year. I don't agree with that style of management.

I think he's over-driving the car in an effort to impress. He's made more mistakes this year that I can remember for a long time. This doesn't seem the same driver who had the record for most number of consecutive points finishes. At the moment he's ragged and unreliable. Some of his mistakes are fairly elementary and to me it looks like someone who's head's all over the place. I don't think he's handling the pressure very well, which is resulting in more and more mistakes.

I'd love to see him stay, but not the way he's driving now. I feel sorry for him if I'm right, as having yourself on public probation would be tough on anyone, no matter how "cool" you are.

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by mcdo »

If was Claire Williams I would extract every $ out of Ferrari that I could. You want him, you'll bloody pay for him
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Fiki »

Herb wrote:
seaflyer wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV4LYuGbl6I

Take a good look. When sizing up the video I think it really looks like Alonso hits Raikkonen BEFORE he looses it.


You can tell absolutely nothing from that video - it's too pixelated to see what's going on.

If everyone around the teams say there was no contact, I'm inclined to believe them.
I don't think the video is proof that Alonso touched Räikkönen. As far as we, the fans, are concerned, only video from Alonso's car could show us whether he did.
But Räikkönen's first reaction is to the left, which is consistent with a touch on his left rear wheel. Since he was already having wheelspin, his grip was already minimal on the rear anyway.
My first reaction on seeing Räikkönen's cockpit footage was "hit, puncture or suspension". The teams can say all they want; the fact is that the nearest car to Räikkönen's and on the correct side for an outside cause of the loss of control, was Alonso's.

Why isn't there any footage from his car, I wonder...
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by shoot999 »

mcdo wrote:If was Claire Williams I would extract every $ out of Ferrari that I could. You want him, you'll bloody pay for him


And if I were Toto Wolff I would....
As part owner and TP of Mercedes not want Bottas in the Ferrari as it would be a bigger threat to my team.
As part manager of Bottas do everything I can to get him in the Ferrari.
As Williams shareholder hope Williams hold Ferrari to ransom and keep him at Williams if they don't pay.

Safe in the knowledge that within the next two seasons in all probability I'd have a finger in the pie of the three top teams; Mercedes, Williams and Ferrari.

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Herb »

Fiki wrote:
Herb wrote:
seaflyer wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV4LYuGbl6I

Take a good look. When sizing up the video I think it really looks like Alonso hits Raikkonen BEFORE he looses it.


You can tell absolutely nothing from that video - it's too pixelated to see what's going on.

If everyone around the teams say there was no contact, I'm inclined to believe them.
I don't think the video is proof that Alonso touched Räikkönen. As far as we, the fans, are concerned, only video from Alonso's car could show us whether he did.
But Räikkönen's first reaction is to the left, which is consistent with a touch on his left rear wheel. Since he was already having wheelspin, his grip was already minimal on the rear anyway.
My first reaction on seeing Räikkönen's cockpit footage was "hit, puncture or suspension". The teams can say all they want; the fact is that the nearest car to Räikkönen's and on the correct side for an outside cause of the loss of control, was Alonso's.

Why isn't there any footage from his car, I wonder...


You do love a good conspiracy theory don't you?

Apparently, Alonso's camera wasn't working (well it is a McLaren! ;)).

There is no proof of contact prior to the crash, it's close, but I think if Alnso had caused the crash, Ferrari and Kimi would be shouting about it.

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Fiki »

Herb wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Herb wrote:
seaflyer wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV4LYuGbl6I

Take a good look. When sizing up the video I think it really looks like Alonso hits Raikkonen BEFORE he looses it.


You can tell absolutely nothing from that video - it's too pixelated to see what's going on.

If everyone around the teams say there was no contact, I'm inclined to believe them.
I don't think the video is proof that Alonso touched Räikkönen. As far as we, the fans, are concerned, only video from Alonso's car could show us whether he did.
But Räikkönen's first reaction is to the left, which is consistent with a touch on his left rear wheel. Since he was already having wheelspin, his grip was already minimal on the rear anyway.
My first reaction on seeing Räikkönen's cockpit footage was "hit, puncture or suspension". The teams can say all they want; the fact is that the nearest car to Räikkönen's and on the correct side for an outside cause of the loss of control, was Alonso's.

Why isn't there any footage from his car, I wonder...


You do love a good conspiracy theory don't you?

Apparently, Alonso's camera wasn't working (well it is a McLaren! ;)).

There is no proof of contact prior to the crash, it's close, but I think if Alnso had caused the crash, Ferrari and Kimi would be shouting about it.
Considering how the stewards tend to go into incidents in detail now, I would almost expect them to hand out penalties for teams that fail to make their on-board cameras function correctly. If McLaren say the camera wasn't working, I would expect them to say why it wasn't.
Consider this: neither Räikkönen, who suffered wheelspin, nor Alonso, who may have been caught out by the lack of acceleration of Räikkönen's car, were deemed to have caused the collision, or there would have been action taken.
The fact that there is no evidence showing Alonso's car touched Räikkönen's doesn't mean it didn't. What the video posted by seaflyer shows, is that it is likely it did.
No need for a consipracy theory, so I don't understand why you bring it up. I think you would have seen far worse ideas than mine, had the accident injured Räikkönen.
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Zoue »

I nicked this from another thread:

Lt. Drebin wrote:For those interested, two more angles of the Alonso-Raikkonen crash:




In the second video in particular, it seems clear that there is no contact from Alonso's car before Kimi starts to fishtail.

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by number27 »

Fiki wrote:
Herb wrote:
seaflyer wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV4LYuGbl6I

Take a good look. When sizing up the video I think it really looks like Alonso hits Raikkonen BEFORE he looses it.


You can tell absolutely nothing from that video - it's too pixelated to see what's going on.

If everyone around the teams say there was no contact, I'm inclined to believe them.
I don't think the video is proof that Alonso touched Räikkönen. As far as we, the fans, are concerned, only video from Alonso's car could show us whether he did.
But Räikkönen's first reaction is to the left, which is consistent with a touch on his left rear wheel. Since he was already having wheelspin, his grip was already minimal on the rear anyway.
My first reaction on seeing Räikkönen's cockpit footage was "hit, puncture or suspension". The teams can say all they want; the fact is that the nearest car to Räikkönen's and on the correct side for an outside cause of the loss of control, was Alonso's.

Why isn't there any footage from his car, I wonder...


There were two cars running close behind Alonso - a Sauber and a Manor. The in-car footage from them might offer up some answers, but we've not seen that either as far as I know.

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by PRFAN »

Fiki wrote:
Herb wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Herb wrote:
seaflyer wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV4LYuGbl6I

Take a good look. When sizing up the video I think it really looks like Alonso hits Raikkonen BEFORE he looses it.


You can tell absolutely nothing from that video - it's too pixelated to see what's going on.

If everyone around the teams say there was no contact, I'm inclined to believe them.
I don't think the video is proof that Alonso touched Räikkönen. As far as we, the fans, are concerned, only video from Alonso's car could show us whether he did.
But Räikkönen's first reaction is to the left, which is consistent with a touch on his left rear wheel. Since he was already having wheelspin, his grip was already minimal on the rear anyway.
My first reaction on seeing Räikkönen's cockpit footage was "hit, puncture or suspension". The teams can say all they want; the fact is that the nearest car to Räikkönen's and on the correct side for an outside cause of the loss of control, was Alonso's.

Why isn't there any footage from his car, I wonder...


You do love a good conspiracy theory don't you?

Apparently, Alonso's camera wasn't working (well it is a McLaren! ;)).

There is no proof of contact prior to the crash, it's close, but I think if Alnso had caused the crash, Ferrari and Kimi would be shouting about it.
Considering how the stewards tend to go into incidents in detail now, I would almost expect them to hand out penalties for teams that fail to make their on-board cameras function correctly. If McLaren say the camera wasn't working, I would expect them to say why it wasn't.
Consider this: neither Räikkönen, who suffered wheelspin, nor Alonso, who may have been caught out by the lack of acceleration of Räikkönen's car, were deemed to have caused the collision, or there would have been action taken.
The fact that there is no evidence showing Alonso's car touched Räikkönen's doesn't mean it didn't. What the video posted by seaflyer shows, is that it is likely it did.
No need for a consipracy theory, so I don't understand why you bring it up. I think you would have seen far worse ideas than mine, had the accident injured Räikkönen.


Sorry but that video shows a hit. 8O

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Fiki »

number27 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Herb wrote:
seaflyer wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV4LYuGbl6I

Take a good look. When sizing up the video I think it really looks like Alonso hits Raikkonen BEFORE he looses it.


You can tell absolutely nothing from that video - it's too pixelated to see what's going on.

If everyone around the teams say there was no contact, I'm inclined to believe them.
I don't think the video is proof that Alonso touched Räikkönen. As far as we, the fans, are concerned, only video from Alonso's car could show us whether he did.
But Räikkönen's first reaction is to the left, which is consistent with a touch on his left rear wheel. Since he was already having wheelspin, his grip was already minimal on the rear anyway.
My first reaction on seeing Räikkönen's cockpit footage was "hit, puncture or suspension". The teams can say all they want; the fact is that the nearest car to Räikkönen's and on the correct side for an outside cause of the loss of control, was Alonso's.

Why isn't there any footage from his car, I wonder...

There were two cars running close behind Alonso - a Sauber and a Manor. The in-car footage from them might offer up some answers, but we've not seen that either as far as I know.
Or cameras looking backwards from cars ahead, for that matter.
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Fiki »

PRFAN wrote: Sorry but that video shows a hit. 8O
Could you explain where and when you see a hit?
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by pokerman »

ob1kenobi.23 wrote:[url][/url]
pokerman wrote:
ob1kenobi.23 wrote:
Honda Quick wrote:Looks to me like Kimi got wheel spin over an uneven / bumpy track surface, and simply couldn't save it due to the high speed. Probably due to being on prime tire with little heat (let's be honest, it looks like he barely tries to get heat in them coming up to the grid slots...)


I think he would have saved it if he had some clear track like Maldo did when he had his tank slapper.
Just unlucky that it happened on the first lap with a crowded track & everybody jostling for position.

No a track side video shows Kimi heading straight for the barrier before he collected Alonso



I was just remembering the onboard footage I saw during the race but having now seen the video I think Fernando may have saved him from t boning the barrier.

https://youtu.be/UpD1CbbABJs

That's what it looked like to me as well
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by pokerman »

mcdo wrote:If was Claire Williams I would extract every $ out of Ferrari that I could. You want him, you'll bloody pay for him

Given this I feel more sorry for the Hulk regarding Ferrari, before he was too tall and too heavy, now it's because he is a German and they already have a German. If the report is to be believed and Williams are holding out for a King's ransom for Bottas is he really worth that kind of money to them when they can have the Hulk for next to nothing, why is this Nationality thing such a big issue?
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Teddy007 »

Just seen the footage, it's clear when you slow it down frame by frame - there is no contact.

What people also don't see is, both Alonso/Kimi made it clear that they don't know how it happened. This also includes all the team data available.

I don't know why people say it's a hit, when you slow it down frame by frame you can clearly see a gap between Alonso and kimi at the moment when kimi's car loses it. It just happens the moment Alonso goes to over take.

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by motorfinger »

There is nothing clear about the footage we have seen so far. People see what they want to see. It surely is strange we haven't seen any onboards from cars behind. And why anyone asked Jenson about his opinion is what puzzles me, he was four places back, hardly in a position to see anything and he was so certain that Kimi lost it on his own. Yeah, right.

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Nosebuckle »

Fiki wrote:
Herb wrote:
seaflyer wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV4LYuGbl6I

Take a good look. When sizing up the video I think it really looks like Alonso hits Raikkonen BEFORE he looses it.


You can tell absolutely nothing from that video - it's too pixelated to see what's going on.

If everyone around the teams say there was no contact, I'm inclined to believe them.
I don't think the video is proof that Alonso touched Räikkönen. As far as we, the fans, are concerned, only video from Alonso's car could show us whether he did.
But Räikkönen's first reaction is to the left, which is consistent with a touch on his left rear wheel. Since he was already having wheelspin, his grip was already minimal on the rear anyway.
My first reaction on seeing Räikkönen's cockpit footage was "hit, puncture or suspension". The teams can say all they want; the fact is that the nearest car to Räikkönen's and on the correct side for an outside cause of the loss of control, was Alonso's.

Why isn't there any footage from his car, I wonder...


I think lots of us have been wondering where the onboard footage from Alonso's car is, and I think you're right to be a bit suspicious, considering it would go quite a ways to dispel any exotic theories (brings to mind the fact we still haven't seen his onboard from his infamous testing crash).

From Kimi's onboard, he's unbalanced, wheels spinning coming out of the corner exit, hence the initial twitching. He seems to straighten it out and then next thing you know he's headed into barriers, collecting Alonso as he was trying to take advantage of the Ferrari's momentum loss on the outside. One thing I noticed from Kimi's onboard was the LED rev indicator - it seems he was at the rev limit the entire time and needed to upshift at the time of the twitching and ultimate loss of control. No idea if it's germane to the cause but looked odd.

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by ManojHS »

Fiki wrote:
PRFAN wrote: Sorry but that video shows a hit. 8O
Could you explain where and when you see a hit?



I see it too. Between 0:06 and 0:07. I was convinced it was a wheelspin or deflated tyre but in this shot it looks like he got a bump on the outside of his left rear.

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Prema »

ManojHS wrote:
Fiki wrote:
PRFAN wrote: Sorry but that video shows a hit. 8O
Could you explain where and when you see a hit?



I see it too. Between 0:06 and 0:07. I was convinced it was a wheelspin or deflated tyre but in this shot it looks like he got a bump on the outside of his left rear.


It is a very plausible concept. If one succeeds to freeze the clip at the right moment, with Kimi's car at the middle of that post, one can see Alonso has gotten his front right wheel just at Kimi's back left. It is not possible to see whether there is an actual contact, but it is from that moment that Kimi's car suddenly loses the line, getting first the smaller spin to right, and then full spin to the left, where to collect Alonso who at that point was not close since the space was

I was posting another clip on the race thread, from another angle where one can see both right and left slide. Looking at that one now, I am definitely getting the impression that Alonso kind of powered himself from behind, giving a slight push to Kimi's back end, so Kimi went aside and thus Alonso getting the space to start overtaking, but then he was collected by Kimi since Kimi has already lost the control over the car.

It is in a slow motion, and that more I watch, that more I am getting convinced that Alonso had his fingers there in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQN3MavG3jU

Also, looking from Kimi's onboard camera. The moment when he just gets his sudden first slide to the right, almost like a kick, one can see that there wasn't any much of the space for Alonso to attempt taking him from the outside. That space opened only and right after Kimi got the first slide. Was not for that, Alonso would have nowhere to go, but to perhaps to go locking his wheels or run out wide.

To me, these three clips, put together, tell a little bit of a story that does not appear to be that much of a mysterious one: Alonso gave a little bit of a push to Kimi... just enough that Kimi was not to feel it as a hit, but good enough to take him out of the balance as he perhaps was already on the edge.

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Fiki »

Prema wrote:
ManojHS wrote:
Fiki wrote:
PRFAN wrote: Sorry but that video shows a hit. 8O
Could you explain where and when you see a hit?



I see it too. Between 0:06 and 0:07. I was convinced it was a wheelspin or deflated tyre but in this shot it looks like he got a bump on the outside of his left rear.


It is a very plausible concept. If one succeeds to freeze the clip at the right moment, with Kimi's car at the middle of that post, one can see Alonso has gotten his front right wheel just at Kimi's back left. It is not possible to see whether there is an actual contact, but it is from that moment that Kimi's car suddenly loses the line, getting first the smaller spin to right, and then full spin to the left, where to collect Alonso who at that point was not close since the space was

I was posting another clip on the race thread, from another angle where one can see both right and left slide. Looking at that one now, I am definitely getting the impression that Alonso kind of powered himself from behind, giving a slight push to Kimi's back end, so Kimi went aside and thus Alonso getting the space to start overtaking, but then he was collected by Kimi since Kimi has already lost the control over the car.

It is in a slow motion, and that more I watch, that more I am getting convinced that Alonso had his fingers there in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQN3MavG3jU

Also, looking from Kimi's onboard camera. The moment when he just gets his sudden first slide to the right, almost like a kick, one can see that there wasn't any much of the space for Alonso to attempt taking him from the outside. That space opened only and right after Kimi got the first slide. Was not for that, Alonso would have nowhere to go, but to perhaps to go locking his wheels or run out wide.

To me, these three clips, put together, tell a little bit of a story that does not appear to be that much of a mysterious one: Alonso gave a little bit of a push to Kimi... just enough that Kimi was not to feel it as a hit, but good enough to take him out of the balance as he perhaps was already on the edge.
And it's also quite possible that Alonso would be unaware he had touched Räikkönen's car, if he did.
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Prema »

Fiki wrote:And it's also quite possible that Alonso would be unaware he had touched Räikkönen's car, if he did.


Yes, that would be a possibility. But then he could also say so, "Maybe I touched him but I did not feel anything". Instead, Alonso rather gave an impression that he was not close to Kimi when Kimi was getting the wheelspin, like as if he was observing it happening on the exit of the turn two. And there, his testimony does not match with Kimi's.

Alonso:
"He exited turn two with a lot of wheelspin so the car was moving."

Kimi:
"Usually you get wheelspin when you come out of the corner, but obviously it was very far away."

And watching the footage, Kimi is right. He indeed did not exit the turn two with a lot of wheelspin. That happened down the straight far away from the exit (just as he said) somewhere along the white DRS line, and in the moment when Alonso was with his right front right on Kimi's back. And from that moment there wasn't much to be even observed, it all happened fast, Alonso hardly managed to come half the length up to Kimi's side when he was collected by Kimi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZBgx3Emsz0

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Fiki »

Prema wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZBgx3Emsz0
Thanks! I don't think I've seen Kimi's first corner on-board yet, but this is remarkable: not a twitch! And that despite the tyres being far from up to temperature, and despite entering the corner on the inside and staying there.
In the second corner, he exits back onto the racing line, which is where I don't really expect wheelspin.

Although I'm still keeping an open mind about this, I think that Alonso tagging Räikkönen is the most likely explanation in the search for the cause.
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Exediron »

Fiki wrote:
Prema wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZBgx3Emsz0
Thanks! I don't think I've seen Kimi's first corner on-board yet, but this is remarkable: not a twitch! And that despite the tyres being far from up to temperature, and despite entering the corner on the inside and staying there.
In the second corner, he exits back onto the racing line, which is where I don't really expect wheelspin.

Although I'm still keeping an open mind about this, I think that Alonso tagging Räikkönen is the most likely explanation in the search for the cause.

You think it's more likely than a car/engine map malfunction of some sort like he had in Canada? If Alonso had touched I'd be surprised that nobody came forward to the stewards with that information. The marshals who were all too close to the accident would have had a perfect view of any contact, after all.
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by VDV23 »

seaflyer wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV4LYuGbl6I

Take a good look. When sizing up the video I think it really looks like Alonso hits Raikkonen BEFORE he looses it.


He Alonso hit him there would be debris flying in the air from Alonso's FW. There wasn't any.

And if Alonso gave him a puncture it would have shown on the telemetry and Ferrari would have said something.

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by PRFAN »

Fiki wrote:
Prema wrote:
ManojHS wrote:
Fiki wrote:
PRFAN wrote: Sorry but that video shows a hit. 8O
Could you explain where and when you see a hit?



I see it too. Between 0:06 and 0:07. I was convinced it was a wheelspin or deflated tyre but in this shot it looks like he got a bump on the outside of his left rear.


It is a very plausible concept. If one succeeds to freeze the clip at the right moment, with Kimi's car at the middle of that post, one can see Alonso has gotten his front right wheel just at Kimi's back left. It is not possible to see whether there is an actual contact, but it is from that moment that Kimi's car suddenly loses the line, getting first the smaller spin to right, and then full spin to the left, where to collect Alonso who at that point was not close since the space was

I was posting another clip on the race thread, from another angle where one can see both right and left slide. Looking at that one now, I am definitely getting the impression that Alonso kind of powered himself from behind, giving a slight push to Kimi's back end, so Kimi went aside and thus Alonso getting the space to start overtaking, but then he was collected by Kimi since Kimi has already lost the control over the car.

It is in a slow motion, and that more I watch, that more I am getting convinced that Alonso had his fingers there in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQN3MavG3jU

Also, looking from Kimi's onboard camera. The moment when he just gets his sudden first slide to the right, almost like a kick, one can see that there wasn't any much of the space for Alonso to attempt taking him from the outside. That space opened only and right after Kimi got the first slide. Was not for that, Alonso would have nowhere to go, but to perhaps to go locking his wheels or run out wide.

To me, these three clips, put together, tell a little bit of a story that does not appear to be that much of a mysterious one: Alonso gave a little bit of a push to Kimi... just enough that Kimi was not to feel it as a hit, but good enough to take him out of the balance as he perhaps was already on the edge.
And it's also quite possible that Alonso would be unaware he had touched Räikkönen's car, if he did.


Thanks Prema, exactly what I see, could not have explained that better my self.

My opinion is based on my experience when karting. Sometimes when you are at the limit of grip be it going forward on taking a corner a very small tap will send you flying of the track. I have seen the same crash when karting always preceeded by a tap from the car behind, same "apparent" lift of the rear with a almost impossible to control tank slapper, we had one pilot leaving the track on an ambulance just two races ago when the kart from behind tapped the one in front sending it over to a third pilot, all this on a TAG Master class at the middle of the straight maxxed out on the gear no aceleration going on, just drafting.

This is why I am willing to say there was contact even if small. Its a carbon copy of stuff I have experienced and seen. Racing cars just dont behave that way unless is deliberate when trying to drift/scandinavian flick

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by HawaiiF1Fan »

Fiki wrote:
Herb wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Herb wrote:
seaflyer wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV4LYuGbl6I

Take a good look. When sizing up the video I think it really looks like Alonso hits Raikkonen BEFORE he looses it.


You can tell absolutely nothing from that video - it's too pixelated to see what's going on.

If everyone around the teams say there was no contact, I'm inclined to believe them.
I don't think the video is proof that Alonso touched Räikkönen. As far as we, the fans, are concerned, only video from Alonso's car could show us whether he did.
But Räikkönen's first reaction is to the left, which is consistent with a touch on his left rear wheel. Since he was already having wheelspin, his grip was already minimal on the rear anyway.
My first reaction on seeing Räikkönen's cockpit footage was "hit, puncture or suspension". The teams can say all they want; the fact is that the nearest car to Räikkönen's and on the correct side for an outside cause of the loss of control, was Alonso's.

Why isn't there any footage from his car, I wonder...


You do love a good conspiracy theory don't you?

Apparently, Alonso's camera wasn't working (well it is a McLaren! ;)).

There is no proof of contact prior to the crash, it's close, but I think if Alnso had caused the crash, Ferrari and Kimi would be shouting about it.
Considering how the stewards tend to go into incidents in detail now, I would almost expect them to hand out penalties for teams that fail to make their on-board cameras function correctly. If McLaren say the camera wasn't working, I would expect them to say why it wasn't.
Consider this: neither Räikkönen, who suffered wheelspin, nor Alonso, who may have been caught out by the lack of acceleration of Räikkönen's car, were deemed to have caused the collision, or there would have been action taken.
The fact that there is no evidence showing Alonso's car touched Räikkönen's doesn't mean it didn't. What the video posted by seaflyer shows, is that it is likely it did.
No need for a consipracy theory, so I don't understand why you bring it up. I think you would have seen far worse ideas than mine, had the accident injured Räikkönen.



The teams can pull the on car data and tell if Fernando hit Kimi. They'd see changes in the accelerometers on both cars at that time.

I think that if Fernando had hit Kimi he would fess up to it.

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Prema »

Exediron wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Prema wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZBgx3Emsz0
Thanks! I don't think I've seen Kimi's first corner on-board yet, but this is remarkable: not a twitch! And that despite the tyres being far from up to temperature, and despite entering the corner on the inside and staying there.
In the second corner, he exits back onto the racing line, which is where I don't really expect wheelspin.

Although I'm still keeping an open mind about this, I think that Alonso tagging Räikkönen is the most likely explanation in the search for the cause.

You think it's more likely than a car/engine map malfunction of some sort like he had in Canada? If Alonso had touched I'd be surprised that nobody came forward to the stewards with that information. The marshals who were all too close to the accident would have had a perfect view of any contact, after all.


On those videos, there does not appear that there are some marshals close to that place where the supposed contact occurred, and those two guys in video, all they saw was cars crashing at their direction. And even if there were some, it might be difficult to tell with full certainty. Obviously, the cars were moving fast and were close, but did they touch?

I am watching this footage that is in a slow motion. And If one freezes right at sec 10, one can see the wheel-on-wheel situation (which can also explain why not any debris, it wasn't necessarily wing-on-wheel but rather the wheel-on-wheel contact). One can determine that by the position of Kimi's back wing that is reflecting the light: it is at the level of Alonso's front wheels, if not already a little bit behind. That is the moment when Kimi got his first sudden slide away from Alonso. But what I am also noticing is Alonso too having a slight move to his left, away from Kimi. Both moves come at exactly same moment, though Kimi's is the obvious one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJOXSSX5Qus

I can understand that the evidence may be inconclusive, thus the ruling can be made other way than it was. But from my point of view, the fact is that the cars are incredibly close to each others with their wheels the very moment prior to Kimi starting getting the slap that he did not have the signs prior to that moment. And if I am to assume that there indeed was a touch, the way of how the situation developed from that moment, would just fit into that picture. Thus I am inclined to believe that there was the contact which contributed, if not caused, Kimi getting the wheelspin.

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by infi24r »

Ferrari and Raikkonen mentioned no touch, nor did Fernando or McLaren. The teams would know if the cars touched. No videos show any sort of touch. I don't understand what people are trying to hunt for.

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by trento »

seaflyer wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV4LYuGbl6I

Take a good look. When sizing up the video I think it really looks like Alonso hits Raikkonen BEFORE he looses it.


The lamppost is blocking the view but if u pause the video, seems like Kimi did lose the rear.

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Prema »

HawaiiF1Fan wrote:The teams can pull the on car data and tell if Fernando hit Kimi. They'd see changes in the accelerometers on both cars at that time.

I think that if Fernando had hit Kimi he would fess up to it.


If Alonso tapped Kimi's back left wheel with his front right wheel, no change in acceleration values got to occur.

As far as Alonso, he did not acknowledge that he was so incredibly close to Kimi, practically speaking with his wheels on Kimi's wheels, the moment when Kimi got the wheelspin. But he gave the testimony as if he was observing Kimi exiting the turn two with a lot of spin. If you only listen to Alonso, and saw no footage, you would be geting a wrong picture.

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Prema »

infi24r wrote:Ferrari and Raikkonen mentioned no touch, nor did Fernando or McLaren. The teams would know if the cars touched. No videos show any sort of touch. I don't understand what people are trying to hunt for.


Well, that is the point, no videos show touch in the way that would serve as the obvious evidence. Kimi, he does not know what happened, it is strange to him, he doesn't understand why would he get such a spin there when he did not get it at the exit of the corner two. Alonso, he does not know what happened, he speculates about cold tyres, saying that it was "a very strange incident". The teams, they don't have data that to show it. The stewards, they don't have evidence.

But, watching those videos (some of them made by the spectators), I still can have my impression about what happened there. I mean, I want to say that there is nothing wrong with having such a view, as there is the room for having it.

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Porsan »

Prema wrote:If Alonso tapped Kimi's back left wheel with his front right wheel, no change in acceleration values got to occur.

What you say goes against Newton's 2nd law of motion: whatever external force applied to the car HAS to produce a change in acceleration's magnitude or direction. If it doesn't, it can only mean the force wasn't strong enough to produce any effect.
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Prema »

Porsan wrote:
Prema wrote:If Alonso tapped Kimi's back left wheel with his front right wheel, no change in acceleration values got to occur.

What you say goes against Newton's 2nd law of motion: whatever external force applied to the car HAS to produce a change in acceleration's magnitude or direction. If it doesn't, it can only mean the force wasn't strong enough to produce any effect.


But what you say about drivers having their foot on a gas pedal, and that is not exactly a constant value in all the given moments? Go and integrate that one into Newton's 2nd law of motion and come up with your formula.

A slight tap, good enough to help the wheelspin to occur, that may not even be such an external "force" to talk about.
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by mcdo »

Kimi, Fernando, Ferrari, McLaren and the FIA stewards - not one of them has claimed/admitted there was contact.
But some investigative work, carried out by PF1 forumers on amateur Youtube videos, is going to try and prove that it happened.

Kimi's about to lose his drive. If there was even a chance that it was Alonso's fault he would have blamed Alonso to absolve himself of any wrongdoing.
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Prema »

mcdo wrote:Kimi, Fernando, Ferrari, McLaren and the FIA stewards - not one of them has claimed/admitted there was contact.
But some investigative work, carried out by PF1 forumers on amateur Youtube videos, is going to try and prove that it happened.

Kimi's about to lose his drive. If there was even a chance that it was Alonso's fault he would have blamed Alonso to absolve himself of any wrongdoing.


You are plainly wrong. No attempt to try to prove anything, has been made here. You don't have to restore to such condescending tone.

I am able to evaluate on my own, from that what is available to me, and I can form my own impressions. You apparently have issue with that.

Edit: at the same time, you are entering in with exercising your own logic here, such as this one about Kimi.
Last edited by Prema on Thu Jun 25, 2015 8:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by froze »

Prema wrote:
infi24r wrote:Ferrari and Raikkonen mentioned no touch, nor did Fernando or McLaren. The teams would know if the cars touched. No videos show any sort of touch. I don't understand what people are trying to hunt for.


Well, that is the point, no videos show touch in the way that would serve as the obvious evidence. Kimi, he does not know what happened, it is strange to him, he doesn't understand why would he get such a spin there when he did not get it at the exit of the corner two. Alonso, he does not know what happened, he speculates about cold tyres, saying that it was "a very strange incident". The teams, they don't have data that to show it. The stewards, they don't have evidence.

But, watching those videos (some of them made by the spectators), I still can have my impression about what happened there. I mean, I want to say that there is nothing wrong with having such a view, as there is the room for having it.

Alonso's onboard is all that would be needed to resolve this once and for all, but where is it? All cars are equipped with it and even if it was damaged in the crash, it should've still transmitted up to that point.
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by mcdo »

Prema wrote:
mcdo wrote:Kimi, Fernando, Ferrari, McLaren and the FIA stewards - not one of them has claimed/admitted there was contact.
But some investigative work, carried out by PF1 forumers on amateur Youtube videos, is going to try and prove that it happened.

Kimi's about to lose his drive. If there was even a chance that it was Alonso's fault he would have blamed Alonso to absolve himself of any wrongdoing.


You are plainly wrong. No attempt to try to prove anything, has been made here. You don't have to restore to such condescending tone.

I am able to evaluate on my own, from that what is available to me, and I can form my own impressions. You apparently have issue with that.

Edit: at the same time, you are entering in with exercising your own logic here, such as this one about Kimi.

Yeah, you're wrong :)
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Re: The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread

Post by Prema »

mcdo wrote:
Prema wrote:
mcdo wrote:Kimi, Fernando, Ferrari, McLaren and the FIA stewards - not one of them has claimed/admitted there was contact.
But some investigative work, carried out by PF1 forumers on amateur Youtube videos, is going to try and prove that it happened.

Kimi's about to lose his drive. If there was even a chance that it was Alonso's fault he would have blamed Alonso to absolve himself of any wrongdoing.


You are plainly wrong. No attempt to try to prove anything, has been made here. You don't have to restore to such condescending tone.

I am able to evaluate on my own, from that what is available to me, and I can form my own impressions. You apparently have issue with that.

Edit: at the same time, you are entering in with exercising your own logic here, such as this one about Kimi.

Yeah, you're wrong :)


Good for you.

(my wife has already trained me well in that regard :nod: )

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